Looking for input on potential panel replacements

[rmchrgr]

This is a gonna be a long one so get comfortable. Working on a '72 Challenger. On the outside, the car looks OK and at a quick glance might pass for "rust free". However, this is definitely not the case as I have discovered rust on the inside.


This car obviously has a vinyl top. At some point a long time ago the exterior was painted. Whoever did the job broke a few of the trim studs around the back window. Rather than welding on new studs (if that would have even been possible back whenever it was) they used hardware store sheet metal screws to secure the plastic trim clips. This genius put said screws next to the existing holes where the studs were. Hold that thought.


I don't know if the studs were still in there when they did this or not. If they were then eventually they just fell out because there are open holes where they should have been. This created a literal drain directly into the rear structure of the car. So whenever it was out in the rain or washed or whatever, water would sit between the  filler panel seams under the paint. Eventually it rotted out the filler panel flanges where it meets the other panels on both sides.



The water also trickled down into the trunk gutter and would sit there. The gutter probably got really thin after being oxidized and one day someone carelessly opened the trunk without holding on to it and it popped the spot welds that retain the trunk hinge brackets. I'm guessing the same genius who put the random trim screws in is the same one that bolted the brackets to the gutter, smeared a bunch of putty around it and painted over it.




Eventually all that stagnant moisture is probably what made the inside of the trunk pan so crusty as well. Whatever left over paint Mr. Genius had, they sprayed it right over the scale. They also sprayed undercoating around the seams and painted over that too whioch trapped a bunch of moisture under it. Lifting up a small tear reveals metal that has essentially turned to dirt. Cool!


So of course looking around reveals the insides of the quarters are pretty rusty. There's no evidence of actual rot but let's say it's beyond surface rust now. There was one repair on the lower passenger side behind the door. I can also see some surface rust on the lower C-pillar supports. My hope is that the inner structure is still sound but I can't see down at the bottom so that's the big unknown.



Surprisingly, the cabin floors are solid. I can't tell if there are any issues under the vinyl top itself but there is nothing obvious that would make me think there is.


I'm into this car for too much already so this is all a pretty big bummer. Looking at this situation from a couple different angles reveals some choices each with pros and cons;

#1 Pretend like it never happened.

#2 Repair things in a 'minimal' way and move forward. It's not clear how involved that could get or how effective that would be.
 
#3 Do the job right by replacing the deck filler, trunk floor and quarters and address whatever else is needed. Huge by large project with years of down time.

I've had the car since 2023 but have not driven it yet due to a blown up engine. I didn't really dig very deep into it then so I'm just looking at all this stuff with fresh eyes. While it sat I came up with plans to do a bunch of stuff to the car (not body work and paint) and actually started in on some of it but finding the rust has put the kibosh on that for now.

At this point selling it would be foolish - I'd take an absolutely stupid beating on it. I don't think i could even give it away right now. At the same time, if I go the Full Monty route, I'd of course be sinking way more money, time and effort into it than I ever expected. I'd be so upside down on it that it might go down as one of the worst decisions in automotive history.

My inclination is to do the whole thing though. Obvious problem is that even if I was determined to get it done in as short of  time as possible, it's not gonna be a month. I'd be doing the work myself and possibly even painting it. I'm also trying to finish up another one of my cars that's been apart for 10 years. I'm not the brightest bulb.

I think by re-doing all this sorta rusty stuff I might be trying to make myself feel better for the bad deal. At the same time, I do have a hard time accepting that there is legitimate rust/rot. There's definitely a part of me that wants to go deep for the experience. I've had cars apart and managed to get them back together but never to the point of replacing multiple panels at the same time. I'm confident I can do it but to what level I'm not sure. 

Frankly, these are uptown problems and none of this is especially practical from either a financial or time standpoint. If I commit I'll need to sustain interest and see it through to completion. I have space and some time but it is limited. That's a big if.

So if this was your mess, how would you clean it up?

Thanks for your input.

Greg

[RUNCHARGER]

Good looking Challenger. What I would do: Check over the whole car and make an inventory of what you need. Then I would order all the AMD now while you are sure it is still available.
After that, I would probably live with it for a few years until the paint gets a bit more hagged and when you feel you can go after and get it done correctly in a fairly short timeline.
The car looks good now and if you start into it while you have a full plate with other projects/life it will just be pulled all apart and sit for years. Then you'll get fed up with it and sell it for pennies on the dollar, after losing half the parts.
Get the parts you need and when you think you can attack it and get it done within one month into paint, then that's the time to do it. There's no reason you have to spend more than 2 to 3 days changing a quarter, 1 day for a trunk floor, less than a day for the filler panel. However you need the dedicated time available and the inclination to do it without interuption.

[torredcuda]

Some of those previous repairs were how things were done back in the day, others are just hacked. Brazing was common before mig welders became common in body shops. How is the paint holding up - any bubbling in the typical rust areas like lowers quarters, door corners, lower fenders etc.? Looking a the poor repair work that was done would have me wondering what else is hiding under the paint. I guess you have two options - just fix what you see to stop the rust and leaks or strip the whole car down and do it right. It depends on how much time and money you want to invest in it but if you plan on keeping it long term I would do it right.

[rmchrgr]

Thanks for the sincere replies so far. Pretty sure I'm keeping it but facing these underlying rust issues is demoralizing.

RUNCHARGER, what you said makes a lot of sense and I might just do as you suggest. Fortunately I have some room to store the sheet metal so it's really not a bad idea to get it all now and at least wait until I get my Duster done to go after it. Just the other day I went on the AMD website and put everything I thought I would need in the cart - it's not that bad. I mean it's not $300 but it's not even close to $3,000 either. Plus, having the sheet metal to go with it will be helpful if I decide to sell the car before any body work is done. I never would have thought about it like that.

torredcuda - Save for some weird surface oxidization that almost looks like air bubbles in some spots the exterior paint is actually not that bad. Maybe it can even be buffed out but I'm not sure. There does not seem to be any visible rust-under-paint bubbling in the usual areas and the panels are straight. That trunk hinge bracket 'repair' makes me cringe though.

[tparker]

Ugh, I feel your pain. I had similar issues but MUCH MUCH worse. I can post  photos if interested. I left the car in the back yard when I went into the military. The vinyl top rotted away  with the roof and the whole area behind the rear window including the trunk sides and the trunk pan. Its a fair amount of work but not impossible.

The biggest issue is the trunk if you  need/want to replace it. The one piece trunk requires tearing apart a significant amount of the panels. Major Surgery. The two piece one is much easier, but it is hard to get the fit right and there is a big ole seam down the middle you have to deal with. Butt welding it is a challenge unless your skilled. I failed pretty miserably at lap welding it. It looks horrible. But that is what a trunk mat is for.

[rmchrgr]

Thanks. The main reason I haven't started cutting stuff out in anger already is because I paid too much for the car. I don't know what it was about this particular one but I had to have it. Admittedly, I'm not a huge fan of the '72-up models either so I was really blinded by this thing. It's my own fault for buying it sight unseen but I won't get into that here. I'm stuck with it now which is fine but it suddenly became a much bigger money pit than it already was. Green is a fitting color.

And yeah, it does look OK from the outside which makes it seem almost absurd to even consider cutting it apart. Most people would look at it and think I was nuts... The rust is there though and it ain't going away.

If I go through with quarters it will get earlier ones and I'll change it into a '70 or '71. I understand there are lot of subtle differences between the years but the quarters, tail panel and fenders are the biggest hurdles. Heck, I'd even save a little money by making into an earlier model because the '72-up panels are $100 more each. Go figure.

It's also just a base 318 car so it's really nothing special. Yes, future resale value goes out the window with a clone or whatever but if I make it into my dream car then that doesn't matter anyway. In essence I'd ultimately be spending the kind of money it takes to buy a "done" '70-'71 but I'm doing it the hard way by converting a semi-rusty '72 to get there. 

To be clear, I would only change the look to an earlier model if I do the quarters. There's absolutely no way I'd even think of getting involved with that exercise if the rust issues didn't exist. I was planning to make the grille black and give the tail panel the black Rallye treatment but that's as far as it would have gone. But since I'm doing ABC, might as well do XYZ. Good money after bad.

[70_440-6Cuda]

@rmchrgr first let me say I enjoyed the read - sorry to hear about the discovery.

I will say if you look at it as an investment, you never win.  I probably overpaid for mine as well, by how much is sort of irrelevant in my opinion.

I am a person that enjoys building things, anything, and transforming something from what it is to what I envision it could be.  I sort of see it as beneficial use - hobbies cost money.

I would make the decision based on what you will enjoy the most, and what your budget allows.  If driving a done car is theost enjoyable for you and you can afford to take the loss, get out now and buy what you want.  But if the satisfaction of doing it right, and seeing the end product is the joy, why worry about what it's worth in the end as long as it doesn't create financial hardship?

My wife tells me I am one of those people who believes the fun is in the doing, not in the having...

Good luck!

[RUNCHARGER]

Honestly it looks like a really good car, not completely rotten. I agree if you're a builder keep it, if you enjoy driving more then sell it and put the extra money into buying a done car. However as you have experienced, be extremely careful if buying a done car.
With paint and parts you're going to have more money into it obviously. I know if it was me I'd drive it for awhile and then do the deed as I love driving them and restoring them. Also keep in mind when you restore the sheetmetal you are going to start redoing the rest of the car to a higher standard and that may make you question if you should drive it if they weather is iffy etc. It's human nature and I've done it myself several times. In it's current state you will actually drive it more than when it's minty.
I think you should get it running and put some smiles on it for now, then make your final decision.
I've restore almost every car I own. However I picked up this Hemi Coronet 500 as a roller and got it running. It had a few very minor blisters on the lower quarters and paint delaminating in a couple of spots. I was going to eventually knock it down and restore it properly. I ended up driving it about 10 years and finally traded it as a roller for my U-code Challenger. I drove the car lots and had a huge amount of enjoyment doing that.

[rmchrgr]

@rmchrgr first let me say I enjoyed the read -

Thanks! I try to be thoughtful about what I write. I can be pretty long-winded though... guess I was an English major for a reason.

I realize the choices are pretty obvious here. I mean, it's either fix it or don't which mostly boils down to money and time. Let's be honest - I wouldn't be in this position if I couldn't afford to be. At the same time I don't have unlimited funds either. The other part is just not being able to drive the car for however long it takes to do the job.

My '71 Duster has been apart for 10 years. I took apart a running car to re-do the motor but it snowballed into a full rebuild. I've basically done it twice now because I wasn't happy with how things turned out the first go around. During that 10 year span we moved from L.I. to where I grew up in CT and the car sat in storage for 3 1/2 years. I brought it back home in 2021. It's 85% done now but I'm having a tough time getting it over the finish line. Having the Challenger apart now is only going to make that harder. I can't help it though, it's what I do as I'm also someone that needs a project.


While the Duster was languishing in storage, I couldn't take being without a car. In may of 2018 I bought a '68 Coronet 440. (1 of 934 big blocks) I bought it "done" because I wanted a driver. I promised my wife I wouldn't take it apart. It was an amateur restoration that left a lot to be desired though. Predictably, the car was completely apart within a few months. As I mentioned, we had moved back into my childhood home the previous year while it was being renovated. Before the garage was even done the Dodge was spread across the floor. I didn't even have all my tools yet.

It went from a a bench seat, column-shift automatic to a 4 speed with bucket seats. I rewired the entire car, rebuilt the undercarriage and interior and converted it to EFI. All that took the better part of two years including several months where I didn't do anything on it because of a broken hip. I drove the wheels off it when it was done though and ultimately I sold it to get the Challenger. 

The one thing I will say is that it did not need any body work or paint. That's what I had in mind for the Challenger but the rust has obviously changed the scope of the project.



Maybe I was looking for someone to say, "hey you can fix those rusty areas without having to repaint the entire car" but I don't see how that's possible. Unfortunately, the rust is there and it's not going to remove itself. Could it be worse? Sure. Could it be better? Absolutely.

I've never had to deal with replacing body panels before so that's new territory for me. Like I said, there is a part of me that wants to do it and I'm not afraid of it. I have a good idea of what it takes to do it right though and it's a lot of work. I just need to make the choice and commit to doing one thing or another.

[ec_co]

The other reasons to get your parts gathered as quickly as you can afford. 1) availability - some parts are made in limited runs due to tooling/storage/'want', so what might be available now might not be readily available in 5-10 years. 2) costs keep going up. When I started my teardown in 2014 I bought a set of Legendary seat covers, that same set now is 20% more expensive. Full door panel set for $600, now it's almost double that. Acquiring parts over 10 years has saved me a couple grand, easily and now that I'm close to reassembly I'm not stressing out (as much) about high parts costs or finding what I need

[rmchrgr]

All of the parts in my AMD cart are currently available. My guess is '70-'71 E body parts are probably some of their top sellers so it makes sense to keep inventory on them. I agree there's really not much down side to having the new panels except the initial investment. Can't do anything without the parts in hand anyway. Adding the earlier grille and tail light panel is not going to be cheap though.

The front clip on my car is actually in really nice shape so hopefully I can recoup some money by selling those pieces. If I'm careful how I cut things out in the back I can probably move some of those pieces too though I wouldn't expect much return and it would depend on how usable they are.

This car is definitely not an investment. I bought it because I was in love with it and still am. I'm not a flipper type person, I get way too emotionally attached to this stuff. In all honesty, my heart was never fully into my '68 Coronet because it was a second choice. I almost bought this Challenger in 2018 but for whatever reason I just didn't. I ended up buying the Coronet instead and regretted it. When i saw the Challenger was for sale again I went for it. I don't regret that decision at all but it didn't turn out the way I had hoped it would. That's life.

[jimynick]

Your thinking that the previous repairer was a "genius" might be premature. I was working as a bodyman in '73 and we repaired cars the way the customer requested and/or could afford. Brazing, as mentioned, was a common method to fill pinholes that the owner didn't want to properly repair or replace. Leaks around the rear glass and w/strip section of the upper body panel were as common as dirt and the facts that the factory didn't see fit to even put sufficient paint in these areas, if any, didn't help the situation. Good advice regarding amassing/paying for replacement parts has been given and you'd be wise to heed it. Further advice has been to not take this quite decent car apart only to have it languish in pieces for years before you get to it. Unless you're going to drive it in the rain or store it outside I'd drive it, just like it is (because it truly does look pretty good), finish the Duster and when you're able to facilitate it timewise and financially and have a car you like to drive to take it's place, pull the green meanie in and make it your own. Bonne chance! 

[70_440-6Cuda]

Funny thing is the journey is the best part - I tend to only keep my finished vehicles for a very short time as I also need a project or 2...been working on my '40 Ford for 15 years - just now making some progress.

My E body I hope to keep forever, but who knows?  I have a vision of what I want it to be when done, and for me pride in building something that I know is high quality with no cut corners and seeing it finished is the fun part.

Kinda sounds like you have already decided so might as well visit AMD check out already

[rmchrgr]

Your thinking that the previous repairer was a "genius" might be premature. I was working as a bodyman in '73 and we repaired cars the way the customer requested and/or could afford. Brazing, as mentioned, was a common method to fill pinholes that the owner didn't want to properly repair or replace. Leaks around the rear glass and w/strip section of the upper body panel were as common as dirt and the facts that the factory didn't see fit to even put sufficient paint in these areas, if any, didn't help the situation. Good advice regarding amassing/paying for replacement parts has been given and you'd be wise to heed it. Further advice has been to not take this quite decent car apart only to have it languish in pieces for years before you get to it. Unless you're going to drive it in the rain or store it outside I'd drive it, just like it is (because it truly does look pretty good), finish the Duster and when you're able to facilitate it timewise and financially and have a car you like to drive to take it's place, pull the green meanie in and make it your own. Bonne chance! 

Fair enough. I was a dealership tech for a while. Customers are crazy.

I'm bad-mouthing the repairs because I'm the one dealing with it now. I'm sure I've been cursed after I had my hands on something. Honestly though, if whoever did the job had just made a little more effort there might not be any rust at all. That's irrelevant now though.

If I go through with the panel replacement then it really shouldn't be a problem if I ever get caught in the rain. Even now it won't matter since the rust is already there, it's not going to just disintegrate. The car lives in the garage so there's no concern about the elements.

A few friends of mine drive rust buckets around - rotted chassis parts, quarters rusted up to the belt line, etc. They park the car and the rust just falls off it like snow. It's actually kind of a hazard if you ask me but I'm not the one behind the wheel. Thankfully the Challenger is nowhere near that level.

I also know of a local guy who restores brand-X cars to sell at auction. He leaves obviously rotted parts on his cars. Replacing the metal is not what he does. He'll get them completely media blasted but that's it - he'll just paint over it. Sure he'll put quarters on them but anything underneath you can't see he just leaves it. Most recently I saw he left a package tray that was just gone. The rest of the car looks great and has really nice paint job. The rotted part will be covered up so no one will see it right away but if I bought it at auction and found that kind of half-assery I'd be livid. Sometimes I walk out of there scratching my head but somehow he does OK.

Repairing the rusty areas would be for my own satisfaction. I'm a perfectionist and I can't leave stuff alone if I know it's not exactly the way I want it. It's a bit of a curse sometimes because it tends to bog me down. Not sure how to un-learn that!

[torredcuda]

My Barracuda was restored by me back around `92-96 in a barnboard garage and after 30 years of driving it hard on the street sometimes in the rain plus hundreds of drag strip passes it is showing it`s age. It has held up pretty well and is a decent 10 footer but lot`s of nicks, scratches, a few dings and a crack in the bodywork on the drivers roof/quarter seam. I would love to redo it fixing the minor bodywork issues and repaint but that would involve taking it apart, stripping it all down, sanding, priming, paint etc. which takes time and money. It also has a miss in the engine which I think is top end valve/set issue. I am currently in the middle of my road runner restoration so for now I`ll keep driving it as is for another year or two while I finish the road runner then I`ll decide to either ter down the Barracuda or just say screw it and keep driving it as is. I`m not sure I have another resto in me at my age.