70 Challenger SE question

[70/6chall]

Got a question guys about the 70 Special Edition Challenger maybe some of you more knowledgeable E-body enthusiasts can help me out and clear things up. Just recently I was questioned about the validity of all the SE trim on my base model 70 Challenger. I've never referred to it as a real JH29 or a JS29 because I know it's not. When I bought my Dodge 51 years ago, it was a trade-in with 40K miles on it. I bought it from a Dodge dealership locally to me to use as a daily driver. It is loaded down with SE trim inside and out except no formal vinyl top or inside upper consolette. I bought it as is trim and all I admit I added a few things myself but not the trim. The car sat on the dealers lot for 8 months until the first buyer bought it in Apr 1970 then I bought it in Mar 1972. My question if all the SE trim was added by the dealership before the first owner bought it to sweeten up a sale would it be as if the trim were installed on the assy line? I believe it's all the same trim added to the Western Sport Special.since this is an early Aug 69 LA built car. Any help here appreciated. TIA

[71GranCoupe]

Highly unlikely the trim was dealer installed. Not impossible, but very unlikely. Can you share the first six letters and numbers of the vin. That will help on the decoding that may be indicative of factory belt molding.

[70/6chall]

Sure VIN is JH23C0E1XXXXX I had heard that the dealer could add different options if it could secure a sale. I talked with Galen Govier at a Spring Fling in Van Nuys Ca. He was telling me it wasn't unusual for a dealer to add different options to a car just to make it a better deal.

[CudaJim]

@70/6chall

Agree it's possible that the SE-style trim was dealer added, but probably very unlikely - for one thing, to do it the way the factory did it, it would be alot of work.  I believe it's more likely your car was ordered with the trim package, here's my thoughts:

If you have a fender tag, build sheet (I think unlikely for an LA built car), window sticker, etc., you might check for option A63 Challenger Moulding Group, which included body belt mouldings, front stone shield mouldings, hood rear and fender mouldings, and rear astrotone
painted applique (aluminum panel above the taillights).  This was a standard package on SE's, but available on other Challenger models in 1970.  You might also check for code M25 Sill Mouldings option, but it sounds more like you have A63.  You also said you had 'interior' SE trim, but not the formal rear window and not the overhead console, which I think only leaves the J41 Pedal Dress Up and Special Edition door nameplates (which I'm guessing you do not have).  The pedal dress up (shiny trim around the foot pedals) could easily be added by the dealer or anyone, or could apparently come with a new car with J41.  Maybe I'm forgetting something else unique to SE interiors?

Anyway, my guess is your car has the A63 package.  You didn't mention if your car was an original paint car... if it is, and the trim looks original, it probably is.  If there is evidence the car was repainted before you got it, I'd say the odds go up a little that the trim was added.  BTW, I'm not sure if the A63 code would or would not have been on the fender tag even if it was built with the A63 package, not all codes were on the tag, but someone here may chime in on that possibility.

If the above doesn't help much, it would likely take someone with expert knowledge of original SE style trim to take a close look at details of the trim install and give you their opinion on whether it is factory installed or not...

One other thought.  At one time I also owned an early build '70 Challenger, and there were a few build anomalies on my car, that I attributed to assembly line mistakes or inconsistencies, that sort of thing.  Perhaps your car got the trim by mistake, perhaps someone checked the trim box when ordering, or perhaps the car was an early showroom or press build and ordered with the trim package (or it was added) for some reason.  If you can share a pic of the fender tag, or other codes on the tag, that might reveal more clues...

There's alot of knowledge on here, others may chime in and comment or correct me...

[70/6chall]

Cuda Jim thank you so much for your most informative reply. When I bought the car it was a dealership (Moss Motors Dodge, Riverside Ca.) trade-in. The paint looked good for a used car, it has been painted 3 times in its existence, EK2 Go-Mango, once before I bought it in 1972then another 2 times after I bought it, last in late 90's. SherwinWilliams ultra 7000, base/clear, cut and buffed. During that time I removed all the stainless and alum trim and had it professionally worked and polished. The trim:
Front valance opening, 7 piece belt moldings, WOM, Rocker trim and SE rear finish panel. SE interior pieces SE door panels with carpet strip and reflector, pedal dress-up, Rim Blow steering wheel (changed to Tuff Sport). Ash trays in back each side, factory clock, Wood trim in door insets with SE name plate, drivers side painted sport mirror, am/fm thumb wheel 5 speaker stereo. Light in glove box and in ashtray, fender mounted directional indicators. Here's the fender tag, tell me what you think.

[Fastmark]

That was a very early built car. Dealers would order or just get cars like that just to show off some of the options to the customers or salesman. Knowing how hard it would be to add that door trim, I doubt it was dealer installed. Especially when all they had to do was check a box. My sons 71 RT has that door trim and I think it is coded on the tag, but I can't remember.

[CudaJim]

@70/6chall

Still a mystery.  Can you send more pics?  Maybe a clearer fender tag pic (I can't make out some of it), door VIN tag pic, VIN tag pic, some interior and exterior, anything helps.

Agree it's an early car which can lead to more question marks.  According to your timeline, the car had 40,000 miles and a repaint before you bought it in 1972, after sitting for 8 months on the dealer lot.  That's alot of miles in a short time, and why the early repaint?  Did it have miles on it before it was 'new' on the dealer's lot, which would have turned off many new car buyers?  Was it a test mule or 'demo' driven by salespeople or others to rack up the miles?  Could it have been an early promo or press release car?  A movie/TV use car (you are in LA...)?  A mock-up for the WSS package?  Did someone have access to the dealer parts department and just start trimming it out, particularly at the time of the first paint job?  Did someone live out the the 'Johnny Cash' song and sneak new parts out the back door of the LA plant?  Did some Chrysler exec waive a hand or write a letter and have the car built differently?  Fun to think about all this, but it's pure conjecture and no proof at this point.

I think many of the options you listed could find their way onto a JH Challenger, but some of them would be on the fender tag.  If the door panels actually say 'Special Edition', I get more suspect and would say they came from another actual SE, and maybe more likely many of the parts were transferred onto the car soon after its birth.  On the other hand, some of the options you describe would have been very difficult and more trouble that it would seem to be worth to install/transfer over to the car by 1972, unless it was some mechanic's labor of love or some promo/demo/test/research mule - as said, they could just check a box or go find the car they want with those options at the time, so why bother...

Post more pics please and more people can weigh in.

[tparker]

Just to Chime in. I am the third owner of a Western Sports Special. It had a few modifications over the years but here is what mine has/had based on what you listed.

* Front Valance Trim
* Belt moldings
* Rocker Trim
* Rear Finish Panel (Some people argue with me on that)
* Pedal Dress up kit
* Rim Blow Steering wheel
* Wood inserts with Fratzong on doors
* Painted drivers side mirror
* Light in ash try
* Fender mounted turn signals

* Not sure about the carpet and reflector. Carpet is long gone.
* Not sure what SE Door panels are
* No Ash Trays in rear
* No clock
* Radio long gone
* I don't think there is a light in glove box, need to double check

Mine also had a vinyl top but when I got it, it was not the correct top, which added to the moister problem that rotted out the roof. I need to double check my vin tag to ensure it was originally a vinyl top, I just assumed it.

Also. mine had black ralley wheels. I assumed they were stock but several people on here are sure there were never any black ralley wheels. So someone made SOME modifications at some point.

[CudaJim]

Interesting...maybe an early Western Sport Special without A91 on the fender tag?  Does anyone know the production range for WSS's?

[tparker]

Mine is early 70, I think March. Will have to double check

[70/6chall]

Interesting...maybe an early Western Sport Special without A91 on the fender tag?  Does anyone know the production range for WSS's?

Jim, I found some info on the WSS 70 Challenger

[CudaJim]

@70/6chall

Here's a breakdown of the A91 Western Sport Special appearance package for JH Challengers I found:

- Vinyl top
- Western Sport Special graphics/stickers on the rear quarter panels
- a woodgrain applique on the standard gauge panel (like the Challenger SE or the Barracuda Gran Coupe)
- door panel woodgrain applique
- Rim Blow steering wheel
- pedal dress up
- bumper guards with rubber inserts
- driver's remote control mirror
- sill and belt moldings
- cowl edge moldings
- front valance molding
- Astrotone silver finished taillight panel
- 14 inch Rallye wheels
- F78 X 14 Polyglass whitewall tires

Seems like you have alot of the above on your car...

Going by memory, if you have fender mount turn signals, ignition switch light, headlamp switch light, dash ashtray light, glovebox light... I'd normally say you have the A01 Light Group as a separate option, but that is not on your fender tag either...

[CudaJim]

@70/6chall

Looks like we found very similar WSS info.

[70/6chall]

I want to thank all the forum members that have shed some light on my car. I guess it will remain a mystery I would have loved to to have known the owner/purchaser before me maybe I could've found where all the extra trim came from and Why, it's on the car that I decided to buy. But, I'll just keep it all right where it is and call it my dressed up plain Jane Challenger. Thanks again,    Al

[318Stroker]

Just to Chime in. I am the third owner of a Western Sports Special. It had a few modifications over the years but here is what mine has/had based on what you listed.

* Front Valance Trim
* Belt moldings
* Rocker Trim
* Rear Finish Panel (Some people argue with me on that)
* Pedal Dress up kit
* Rim Blow Steering wheel
* Wood inserts with Fratzong on doors
* Painted drivers side mirror
* Light in ash try
* Fender mounted turn signals

* Not sure about the carpet and reflector. Carpet is long gone.
* Not sure what SE Door panels are



Also. mine had black ralley wheels. I assumed they were stock but several people on here are sure there were never any black ralley wheels. So someone made SOME modifications at some point.

On the SE door panels the woodgrain piece had "Special Edition" script instead of the fratzog. They also had a piece of carpeting with a vinyl border on the bottom, flat part of the panel. At the rear of the carpeted piece was a rectangular reflector probably 2" x 3".

All rallye wheels were argent. There were never any black rallye wheels, or any other color for that matter.