E-Bodies.org Cuda Challenger Forum

Does anyone know of any good Youtube or visual guides (aside from what I will look for in the FSM) about rebuilding drum brakes?

When I had first bought the car, the first thing I did was buy a complete brake replacements from Rock Auto. Probably easily $500-700 worth of stuff. I've been having too much fun with the car, and have put it off until today.

Today on the way home (only a mile away is where I work) I found that I did not have any hydraulic pressure anymore. Pushing the brakes all the way down turned on the parking brake light, which was interesting. The car was able to stop OK still, but it is not what I consider safe anymore.

I have rebuilt drum brakes in motorcycles all the damned time. You put the shoes in, connect the spring, and your done. Drum brakes are cars seem far more complex, so I'll appreciate any reading material you guys have.

My plan of attack is to do one wheel at a time, then crawl under the car and replace ALL lines/hoses/fittings/connections. Dot 3 or Dot 4?

Probably need some specific brake tools? I do have a bleeder tool, but I'm sure there's drum-specific tools?

@Shane Kelley (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/shane-kelley_440) has a nice article on this vary topic, I do not remember were.  :thinking:

Quote from: kawahonda on June 05, 2020, 07:14:12 PM
I assume MC unfastened from the cockpit? 4 mounting bolts....what else?

Nothing else, it should come off now, but likely need a little 'tap' to loosen it up?

That is the nastiest brake fluid I have ever seen.  :o

Good time to switch over to silicon brake fluid, DOT 5

Dot 5 it will be....

I brought all this stuff down from the attic....it's been sitting up there for 1.5 years.

Why am I doing this just now? :)

I've always been very happy with the HD Drum brake performance...it's going to be nice to see what a brand new set feels like.

I don't think I am replacing the hardlines...they look pretty darn good.

As nasty as that fluid looks, I would change everything!  :yes:

I guess I still don't understand. It's more than those 4 nuts.

Is this like a ball joint that just pops off with enough force?

Quote from: kawahonda on June 05, 2020, 07:14:12 PM
I assume MC unfastened from the cockpit? 4 mounting bolts....what else?

You have to disconnect the pivot bolt that attaches to the pedal.  It connects the pedal to the master cylinder pushrod.  The pushrod, valve, and retainer are all serviced as part of the master cylinder.

When you remove and install the master cylinder, it should have the pushrod attached to it...otherwise the fluid will all leak out, and you can't install the pushrod retainer. 

Guess I need a pushrod, boot, and retainer?

Still not sure why these should be serviced if they are in great condition. They are not internal parts?

My raybestos MC just comes with the inner workings, nothing attached to it, just the outer piston.

I still need to attach the pushrod to it, either a new one or my own. Is this just a press fit thing?

It's there, I can see them.  PM sent...

STOP, STOP, STOP, !!! This not the time to learn about the most important safety system on your car by just looking at pictures and people assuming your knowledge level. Get a Service manual and read the brake section completely over and over until you understand everything. Then you can ask specific questions if you need to and refer to the service manual for more detailed explanations. No body is born knowing anything, we all have to learn but you know the saying that " you have to learn to walk before you run"  Here is a link to download one for free. Make sure to use fluids from factory sealed containers to assure no contamination.
http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=109

My predicament.

OK, what's already install may just be the front piston assembly, but I think it's both front and rear. 

FSM does not do a good job explaining the rod connection. In fact, it cleverly deleted it in all images. This is why I think it seems to be external and detach/attachable. 

Notice what these parts are sitting on, mopar Leo.

Quote from: kawahonda on June 06, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
My predicament.

OK, what's already install may just be the front piston assembly, but I think it's both front and rear. 

FSM does not do a good job explaining the rod connection. In fact, it cleverly deleted it in all images. This is why I think it seems to be external and detach/attachable. 

Notice what these parts are sitting on, mopar Leo.

You are correct.  The master cylinder on the LEFT is for an e-body. (and contains both front and rear pistons.)
The piston and rod on the right are from a different Mopar.  (I'm still trying to figure out what...)
You are going to have another problem when you go to bolt on the master cylinder.  A non-power brake e-body pedal support has nut plates welded on, and has bolts attaching from the engine compartment side.  Power booster pedal supports have studs with nuts accessed from the passenger compartment.

Unless the A66 Challenger has something different...somebody has done something in the past to make it all work.

To answer your question...if in fact you have a 60's full size master cylinder, then yes...there is a ball joint with a retaining clip that holds the pushrod to the piston.

Take a look at these pics and see if it matches what you removed...

  It almost looks like the rear piston assy on the end of the rod came out because there was no snap ring to hold it in. See the FSM drawing I'm attaching. The rod should just press in to the back of the master cylinder. A mis-match of parts?
Terry

That looks like exactly what happened.
Need to separate those 2 pieces, getting the push rod out can be a pain.
Throw some vice grips on the lower section and beat it off.

Here's a cross section view :)

I assume this "tip" (with the rubber) just rides in the round divot in the master cylinder?

Or do I have a miss match somewhere?

Here's the junk MC that I removed. Clearly a replaced during the past.

Other good news is I got one done. Won’t touch lines until the very end.

Before/after.

Picture of old shoes as well.

The green and blue spring were not replaced, since there was no replacements in the rebuilt kit. I also did not replace the show mounting studs because the ones in the kit were all shorter than the OEM ones. Yes, the larger shoe is on the rear. Yes, I greased the contact points in the rear behind the shoes.

 I've just lubed the ball end of the shaft and it inserts into the back of the master cylinder . If someone else does it a better way, I'm sure they will share their method.
Terry

I need to know how far to take this job.

1) Assume that I should replace the original drum hub?.....if so, I will get the hub soaking in PBW overnight and start a beat-athon. I will have some wheel bearing grease questions later. Or, just clean and reuse and save the new drum hubs for next time?

2) Should I replace the hardlines? That will turn this job big, because that means all the valves along the way as well. My first thought was to blast it out with brake parts cleaner until it comes out clear, then assess...

 Are the original drums in good shape and still more than minimum drum thickness and less than maximum inside diameter specifications? This determines if I replace mine.
I always replace the bearings/races in the hub if I see even the smallest amount of rust pits, grooves, etc.
Always replace the grease seals.
I flush out my hard lines with brake cleaner and blow compressed air through them and then evaluate if they need to be replaced. If rust comes out, replace.
Proportioning valve needs to be cleaned and checked for leaking, operation, etc. If leaking, rusty or corroded, replace. I told my son while building his 71 Challenger and my grandson who is helping me on my 74 Charger that it doesn't do any good to be able to go if you can't stop.
Terry

I'm actually pretty happy with the lines. See pic.

Not sure of min thickness spec, cannot find it, but the new drums are thicker and consistent.

Slight grooves in old drums.

I say keep hard lines, and replace drums hubs. 

The hubs are used over. Don't beat on it, you need to press the studs out and have new studs installed by the machine shop that presses the old studs out. The new studs are swaged after drums are placed back on the hubs. That is what holds the drums to the hubs. Your return springs need to have the ends that go over the top backing plate stud bent almost closed. Look at your old picture and look to see how the ends of the springs are squeezed into a more closed condition. All metal contact points such as the backing plate pads where the shoes rub against the ... you know it is ridiculous to have to explain every little thing about how it should be done. Get someone to help you that has brake repair experience, We cannot be there to make sure that you have the right parts and do the little things that need to be done. You can't just assume that it was done properly the last time someone did your brakes and then copy their mistakes.Like the proper master cylinder. Someone familiar with the car would have known immediately that the wrong part was there. Saving a lot of time, questions and possibly putting a wrong/dangerous part on the car. Don't take it personally, I don't want you to get hurt.

 I should have stated drum diameter or minimum thickness. I've seen drums marked both ways. See photo. If the drums are not out to the maximum diameter, than they have good thickness unless there are deep grooves that would not machine out when turned.  Use new drums if grooved.
Terry

 Another drum. And I've seen drums with no markings.
Terry

  I also must agree with MoparLeo. If you are struggling with this brake job, it's best to get someone with experience to show you how to do it correctly. It would be terrible to have brake failure out on the road. Asking questions is good but having someone experienced looking over your shoulder is best. I thought you could buy drums that came with the hubs with the studs and bearing races already pressed in.
Terry

Might as well convert the front to disc

Alrighty! Off to the machine shop they will go.

The good news is that this is only just the fronts! For rears, the drum hub should pop right on.

Not struggling. Just was curious what was going on with that pushrod issue since it wasn't matching the new part or the FSM. Doesn't mean I don't know shit about brakes.

Not my first rodeo guys, it's OK. Thanks for checking over pics.

 Kawahonda, I certainly apologize and I didn't mean to infer you couldn't do a brake job. With my Challengers and Chargers, many years go by in between brake jobs and I know I have to stop and think if I'm doing it right. I just did it on my 74 Charger this past fall and did one side at a time so I had the other side to look at. The FSM leaves a lot to be desired. I take a lot of photos like you have been doing so I don't make a mistake. Keep at it and you'll get it done. I think I spent almost a month doing my Charger and it has front disc brakes. Like you, I was checking everything and flushing out lines, replacing brake hoses, bleeding the system, packing and installing new wheel bearings, etc.  I found out that asking questions if unsure is good.  I want to do my 71 convertible soon and it has 11" drums all the way around. It's been over 20 years since I've done all 4 drums. If all looks good, I'll flush the system, replace hoses, etc. and go with it. Take care.
Terry

ALWAYS appreciate the help guys and the "over the shoulder" looks.

Hey guy, sorry but I kind of get frustrated at a lot of posts on many different forums because of the lack of experience and detail that I see. I don't know you and you don't know me. A little about myself. I have been repairing cars since pre teen.
Took all 4 years of auto shop, metal shop, wood shop during high school. Worked as auto shop teachers assistant during the summers and night school. First job out of high school in 1972 was at a Uniroyal tire store, managed by a high school friends older brother, eventually became a brake and front end tech. Went to work for another local California company until they were sold in 1980. Got tired of the grease and worked up to management/training. Worked for another friend managing his Big-O franchise. Never work for family or friends. Moved on to Bridgestone/Firestone Co. store. Retired from them in 2007 as a store manager. I have been involved in the 2 largest tire recalls in History. Supervised/trained auto techs for 3 decades. I have been a manager/trainer for over 30 years and am somewhat of a perfectionist. You know that by my hinge work. There is a difference between doing an occasional brake service and doing several a day for years. The brake systems are similar but not exactly the same for all of the different years/makes/models of cars on the road.  Get the best on the spot help that you can get and never stop, learning. The service manuals do not have a lot of detail because they were written by/for Factory trained mechanics who are assumed to be familiar with the different systems that the manuals cover. I tried finding a good YouTube video for you but none of them are completely correct, some are close though.

Let's begin.

Quote from: MoparLeo on June 06, 2020, 06:11:00 PM
Hey guy, sorry but I kind of get frustrated at a lot of posts on many different forums because of the lack of experience and detail that I see. I don't know you and you don't know me. A little about myself. I have been repairing cars since pre teen.

Don't be the jagged old-man. It doesn't do you any favors. Your posts come across as "me, me, me!." This one sentence that you posted is an exact reason why I say that. What, exactly, is the intention of your posts in this thread? What is the core reason you posted? It seems like it's to get me to stop, and for anyone else to bow down to you that is not 60 years old, or has 40 years of experience.

Notice, I said nothing to defy or downgrade any experience that you posted about. It's just the 'tude. I am thankful that you give tips (the springs being a little too "open"--fixed, etc) but the attitude and belittling gets super old. I hope you consider continuing to post help, but in the right way. The only person I TRUST working on my car is myself.

A little about me? I've done 4-5 brake jobs in cars, about 15 brake jobs in motorcycles. Zero have failed. Zero have had any problems of any sort. Yes, I took shop class too. I do bodywork, I do metal work, I weld, I design, "I this", "I that", but no one cares.

One brake job I did was for my fiance's Element. Using NAPA premium components across the board developed a "click" nose during reverse/forward motions on all four corners. Hmm, interesting. Maybe I should have gave up and delivered it to a "Big O" shop (they would have not resolved the issue), or some other "quick and lube" place since "I lack experience." Turns out after research, Honda issued a factory bulletin on the CRV which they created new retaining clips for the pads to eliminate noise. But guess what, my Fiance has an Element, not the CRV. But did you know they use the exact same brakes? Big-O, or Meinekee, wouldn't have known that, or probably not cared to research it as far as I did. The "click" noise was of zero functional/safety concern, just an annoyance (especially when you have a stick-shift Element). So I purchased the Honda part # for the revised CRV clips and gave them a shot. 100% resolved--and that was after re-greasing the NAPA ones, trying a different brand, etc.

One thing "I" do, is that "I do". Being 35 and inclined to work on this stuff, you should note that it's likely my generation is the last upcoming breed that are keeping/maintaining and working on these cars. So yes, I will continue to do the brakes on this car given my experience, and I will continue to post pictures, ask questions, and appreciate any help along the way.

Backing plate was compeltely sprayed and wiped down. You want to remove as much brake dust as possible.

You can see that the shoe contact points were properly greased with a thin film.

The wheel cylinder "arms" where cleaned, steel-wooled, and got a thin film of grease so that they fit into place.

Notice the spring "nail" that came int he kit were all on the short side. I decided to reuse the ones that were on.

Since then, I have "closed off" the head of the upper springs per MoparLeo's advice.

This stuff is pretty basic. Took me way too long to do all this, but a lot of it was the time spent cleaning.

Tomorrow I will do the driver's side, and I will bleed the new master cylinder. I'll go with Dot 5, per this thread's recommendation!

Will need to review FSM for adjustment proceedure as well as wheel bearing adjustment procedure as well.

I assume my drum hubs are factory since there is overspray on them. I did not find a tolerance number, but because 50 years has gone by, it's going to be good practice anyways to just install the new drum hubs and call that good.

Bravo.  The last 20 years of my time in auto repair/service was at Bridgestone/Firestone.   Company not independent stores. We had the most current information on most everything that we worked on. And as ( here it comes) the largest Tire/auto repair company in the world had nothing less than the most current information available. We did this for a living with big liability consequences if we did something wrong. My time at Big-o was probably before you were born. Just a fact. I would recommend factory parts over aftermarket on brakes. The customer mostly voted with his wallet. Aftermarket.. His choice. There are TSB's published by all auto manufacturers on their vehicles. No secrets that only they will know.  You are absolutely correct that you are probably the last generation that will be fixing their own cars. My 18 year old grandson doesn't even have a drivers permit yet and is not interested in driving, Just video games and his tablet,cell phone. Sad.. Good to ask questions, just more to it than that. I strongly recommend that people read more. Get more reference materials on all aspects of car repair, fabrication. Then pass it on.

Yea, bulletins are not secrets, but it's unlikely that any place aside from maybe Honda themselves would have looked up a CRV bulletin for a Honda Element.....Honda Element Bulletin is empty since they have been OOP for quite awhile, even though it applies 100% the same. Point being, I've done brakes ever since my first car, and I will do them on every car thereafter.

Yes, I do research. I read the FSM (which mentioned nothing of my pushrod issue/conundrum). I'm still confused what was up with that...is my pushrod "factory" that I have now, and will it work with this mastercylinder? The book won't tell me this. I'm assuming it will, but someone probably needs to measure/picture me up a factory e-body pushrod so I can compare.

"ChrisFix" has a really good video on Drum brakes. I watched all of that before hand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5j3sKgNoEs

Kids these days don't care about cars in general. I'm the generation that plays video games, but also spends lots of time in the garage. LOL. Why not both, eh? Still appreciate the work you did on the hinge...

Cheers, MoparLeo!

  I was going to recommend that video but I couldn't get over the fact that the rest of the car looks to be restored and the backing plate is nasty rusty and pitted. Strange. Lithium or synthetic silicone lube on the contact points. A touch on the self adjuster wheels/stars as well. Make sure no grooves are on the backing plate from the shoes rubbing on them. Looks good though and smart not to use riveted brake lining.

Chris Fix does good YouTube videos and explanations.

Quote from: kawahonda on June 06, 2020, 07:16:55 PM
Tomorrow I will do the driver's side, and I will bleed the new master cylinder. I'll go with Dot 5, per this thread's recommendation!

I thought DOT5 didn't play well with DOT3 , which I'm guessing was previously in your car. A few years ago I was contemplating going to DOT5 but common advice at the time was don't do it unless you are changing EVERYTHING. Lines, calipers, wheel cylinders, hoses, etc. While some said just change anyything that has any rubber in it, lines are ok.
No personal experience here, just what I was told in the past.

DOT 5 is completely compatible with prior brake fluids.
Think about it, there's millions of cars and no way they could sell something new that required a complete change of the whole brake system.

An empty system to start with is best, but not required.

Quote from: Katfish on June 07, 2020, 06:36:29 AM
DOT 5 is completely compatible with prior brake fluids.
Think about it, there's millions of cars and no way they could sell something new that required a complete change of the whole brake system.

An empty system to start with is best, but not required.

Are you sure? I was just googling a bit and it still seems the prevailing advice is do not mix DOT 5 silicone fluid with glycol fluid. DOT 5.1 is glycol based and is compatible.  :alan2cents:

Maybe I missed it, but where did all of the brake fluid go?  Your shoes were not that worn and the master cylinder was dry...  and brake fluid doesn't evaporate.  Are you 100% sure the lines, hoses, and wheel cylinders are ok?  You likely have a leak somewhere in the rear brake circuit.

Have not found obvious leak yet...

It could be the MC just straight up failed too.

I don't believe there would be any DOT3 left when I'm done....I'm flushing hard lines with brake cleaner. Soft lines are being replaced.

I got the car off all-four today and removed the rear drums.

I inspected the hardline some more. While the front I am pretty happy with, the section that runs near the rear axle could definitely look better. A little rust and dirt. Mostly just dirt/undercoating. All this seems limited only to the "spring" that surrounds the line, so I'll liekly just leave it be. Rest of the lines from the outside look great (and the insides look great). I figured if I'm this far, what's another $150 to replace all hard-lines in the car with stainless?

I also found another brand of drum hardware that matches better as far as the spring lengths are concerned (for the rears). It even includes the bottom spring which I had to reuse on my fronts--I will buy another set and throw them on the fronts as well.

If I was in a rush/hurry, I definitely wouldn't replace the hardlines, but because i'm likely going to be in "machine shop hell" for another week or two, MIGHT put the little extra effort and just replace all the lines with stainless, and let it last a lifetime. Then again...if DOT 5 is going in....

That's about it for me today. The fronts are done. I will order DOT 5 on Amazon.

EDIT: On second thought, I think I'm going to leave the hard-lines in-tact. The car is relatively rust free, and the lines look great. They have the factory undercoating on them, and I really havent' seen any signs of rust inside. I was able to flush them ALL really good today.

I'm really excited to try out the car once I'm done. I've always thought it stopped pretty well (except the last trip home), but it will be nice to see what a fresh set of HD drums perform like on a Challenger.

Brake lines fail from the inside out. Like a radiator hose. No way to really test a line for internal pitting/wall thickness. Smarter to replace. The factory lines have lasted over 40 years with no maintenance. Stay away from S/S lines. The flares are very difficult to seal. They are not very malleable.  Obviously use flare nut wrenches on all brake, fuel line fittings.

My friends (who have tons of experience and are much older than me) are asking me why fuss around with machine shops to transfer the hub. They told me to bring them on by (they both have shop presses)--and they even have digital wheel balancing/monting machines which is pretty cool. Press them out, press them back in.

What I'll do today is I'll clean the back side of both hubs and get them soaking in PB blaster.

I thought long and hard about buying new studs, but it will be more trouble than it's worth to buy new studs. My challenger has the infamous LH + RH studs. LH studs are impossible to find, which means I'd need to use RH. That means my driver's rear will be mis-matched compared to the rest. The big thing is due to my wheels, I have to order special ET conical nuts that will need to be lathed to the proper size, such as I've already done with the set I have now. All of these is the reason why I will try to reuse the studs. They are in good shape and not striped out. As long as they go in there and seat tightly, then should be good to go. Something I may consider doing in the distant (like, really distant future) is to replace all studs with RH, but for now, it's scope/project/money creep.

I did order OE steel brake lines last night. For $150 shipped, cannot complain. I'm hoping replacing the F to R brake light is about as easy as it was to replace the fuel line. All the other lines should be really simple to do, the next difficult one being the passenger-side front line, but that doesn't look difficult. The others are dead-stupid easy.

I'll cut open the current line once I get it out to see if I was right. My hypothesis is that the brake line is fine to reuse with little to no corrosion.

I think you will be happy you went with OE type brake lines rather than SS.  :alan2cents:

I'm being told that if I'm not replacing the studs, then there is no point to push the studs out. Just push the hub out and push the hub into the new one....

It's that easy?

But looking at them, it looks like they are swedged (like MoparLeo said), so it almost seems like you kinda have to press the studs out first, unless you're really lucky.

I'd bet you anything these are the original drums. The overspray and swedging look factory. The front drums have that "spring" that runs around the outside (guessing I should junk that?)?

I do have some options, and none are extremely pleasing.

1) Order 10 new RH studs and just have new ones pressed in. Convert Driver's front to RH lug news (means ordering 5 new ET conical lugs) and get those lathed to spec. Still requires a machine shop. Kinda wonky still having the driver's rear studs be the only LH studs left on the car, but I guess that's minor. :)  Do new studs get "swedged" as well, or should them? Good shops may have a swedge cutter, so that it's likely studs can be reused?

2) Get the drums actually professional checked for roundness, and see if it's possible to just service them. I checked for thickness around the drum, but that likely isn't a full, professional check. I cannot find any printed "maximum diameter" spec on the drums, which really sucks, and may just rule that answer down hard.

3) Other options?

Quote from: 71vert340 on June 06, 2020, 05:02:53 PM
Another drum. And I've seen drums with no markings.
Terry

I'm afraid my drums may have no markings. That probably means I'm screwed if I ever cared to service them as there is no baseline spec for service? FSM only talks about out-of-round spec.

That is, unless all 11" front drums shared the same maximum diameter number....

 Seems there is a tool called a swedge cutter

found this   https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/fixing-the-front-wheel-hub.357372/

Pricey little beast    https://goodson.com/products/swedge-tools

I cut the swedges on my 70 D100 front drums carefully with a hole saw (obviously without the centering bit).

Do you guys think all 11" drum brakes have the same maximum thickness spec?

It seems like the easiest/fastest option would be to have the originals checked/machined, painted, and put back on. My drums have no markets. The FSM only mentions the out-of-roundness spec. I see that Terry posted an 11" drum that has 11.090". I noticed that the 10" drum he posted has a maximum diameter of 10.090". I'm noticing a pattern here...and if that pattern is consistant then I should take these in, give them the spec, and have them resurfaced if possible.

Don't spend a dollar to save a dime. The band on the drum is a vibration damper. The drum could vibrate and make noises, like rubbing the edge of a crystal wine glass with a wet finger. Induce noisy vibrations. The swedging is done to clamp the drum firmly against the hub. Helps reduce brake vibrations. The studs cannot be swedged again. The max diameter is .060 on factory drums.  So 11.060 max on an 11" drum.  (Also kawahonda , the company doing your machine work should have the specs on what they work on, not relying on the person who brings the part in to supply that info. They are assuming liability  if the part ( in your case the brakes) fail due to machining past the manufacturers specs.) Because the manufacturers tended to use better/more materials it was generally assumed safe to go .090 if there were no marked specs on the drum, but the factory that sold the car sometimes stated their own recommendation for specs. There was no B.A.R. back then. This information is in your FSM if you have one. The professional brake guys will know what I mean when talking about Machine to specs vs. max. specs. This what the maximum that the part should be machined to so that is doesn't exceed the maximum spec. by the time the lining wears out. As you know the drum/rotor wears each time you brake, just like the shoes/pads do. Regarding the Factory Service Manual, Every one should have one and read it. Most questions on this forum can be answered just by reading their service manual. After all, that is what is was published for. If you look a the drum brake section you will find nice pictures of the complete assembly with details on part replacement and lubrication of the brake parts etc... Section 5 of the manual. If you don't have one, here is the link to download one.
http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=109

It isn't in the specifications are (it should be), but I re-read the grinding recommendations section again (5-8), and it's there at the very end. .060" over the standard diameter is maximum. Interesting how Terry's drums state .090" as a max, but those may not be Mopar drums....

That's what I'll run with. 11.060" is the max. That's a good conservative number too according to Terry's photos. Let's see if we can keep these original drums in service instead of just immediately junking them....maybe necessary, but my not be necessary. This car either has 64,000 miles or 164,000 miles. I tend to believe in the former.

Dropped the front hubs off at an old-school wheel/tire shop. The shop looks like 1970 inside with wood grain everywhere. Guys were all in their 60s. Totally cool.

The guy measured them on the spot with a tool from the 70s and remarked "oh no problem, these can definitely be turned!"

Kinda thinking...is there any extra value with keeping my original rear drums and just bringing those along to get resurfaced and just throw all the new drums back in the attic for a later time?

Original parts like brake drums are ok if the car is not going to be driven much. No collector value unless a rare survivor. Use the new parts for safety.

Pick up fronts. He only took 4 thousandths off, which is hardly anything.

Dropped of the rears.

$14 a wheel.


Will put the new stuff back in the attic.

Quote from: kawahonda on June 10, 2020, 07:56:50 PM
It isn't in the specifications are (it should be), but I re-read the grinding recommendations section again (5-8), and it's there at the very end. .060" over the standard diameter is maximum. Interesting how Terry's drums state .090" as a max, but those may not be Mopar drums....

That's what I'll run with. 11.060" is the max. That's a good conservative number too according to Terry's photos. Let's see if we can keep these original drums in service instead of just immediately junking them....maybe necessary, but my not be necessary. This car either has 64,000 miles or 164,000 miles. I tend to believe in the former.

The red drum in my photo is one of my original 11inch drums for my car. I have the rallye wheels so those came from the factory painted red. Yours look painted red also.
Terry

My new rear wheel cylinders use a smaller thread compared to the bolts that were on there.

I confirmed my new ones are correct.

Should I just get new flanged bolts that are smaller? Or should the rear have larger bolts?

Quote from: kawahonda on June 12, 2020, 05:55:20 PM
My new rear wheel cylinders use a smaller thread compared to the bolts that were on there.

I confirmed my new ones are correct.

Should I just get new flanged bolts that are smaller? Or should the rear have larger bolts?

All the replacement wheel cylinders I've bought have smaller threads. Some came with the smaller bolts. I just went to a hardware store with the cylinder and got new bolts, metric I think but can't remember what size.

They're English, fortunately.

1/4" Coarse thread in 1/2" length. Picked up these in grade 8 with some "star" lock washers.

They probably made the switch to smaller bolts to make them more universal. Only the small bolt rear cylinders are available today according to RockAuto.

Completed all wheel rebuilds today.

Cleaned up garage. Will install new lines tomorrow.

Pick up rear drums on Monday. Will refinish those at that time. 

Dot 5 arrives mid week. Will bleed around then.

New lines installed....

Aside from the driver's front line. The proportioning valve connections are being a hellspawn demon. I have 3 connections left to undo (2 MC connections and driver's front left). The only thing I can think is to just keep spraying it with PBblaster.

Here is the inside of the F to R line for reference.

What's your guys thoughts on my distribution valve?

I have 3 lines left still in it, and I've given up on trying to flare wrench those fittings out. It's being a hellspawn demon. Makes me wonder if lightly coating some anti-seize on the fittings is not a bad idea...but I'm sure the brake experts @MoparLeo (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/moparleo_479) would throw a fit. They seriously are IN there.

I will now proceed cut the old lines, and fit a socket/impact tool on the fittings.

Question is, should I still use the factory distribution valve? I'm supposing mine still works. Should I buy a $100 reproduction one, or should I reuse this old one?

The issue before the tear down is that brakes all of a sudden become very light, lack of good stopping power, and hard to feel with the foot. The parking brake light would come on when I pushed the pedal all the way to the floor. It wasn't "scary", but it wasn't right. My diagnosis is still a loss of hydraulic pressure, not a problem with distribution valve. If so, I'm tempted to reuse...getting the fittings out by any means necessary, and save $100.

Quote from: kawahonda on June 15, 2020, 08:08:12 PM

I did notice something interesting. The new rear shoes are smaller than what was on there. See pics.

There is a small shoe & large shoe, small faces forward large to the rear...

best pic I could find showing the difference
https://secureservercdn.net/198.71.233.141/53b.c41.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Drum-brake-12.jpg?


(https://secureservercdn.net/198.71.233.141/53b.c41.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Drum-brake-12.jpg?time=1592283744)

Yep, they are all installed like that.

Just showing the difference in pad size on the rear...

Good try back pedaling...

Let me say it another way.

The rear and front shoes have smaller pad surface area compared to the old shoes that were on there.

In essence, that will make the rears weaker I'm assuming.

The primary and secondary shoes have always been different sizes. If the old shoes were both the same size, then the previous person installed the wrong brake shoes. So no, the brake shoes were not different before. Still the same when the correct shoes are installed. The shoes are different sizes because of the type of braking system. In this case it is called the "duo-servo" system. The foreward shoe is pushed out to the drum by the wheel cylinder and the rear shoes pivots off of the top pin on the backing plate  causing the rear (larger) shoe to apply most of the braking force to the drum. Uh oh... I did it again. Disregard any information if you want....

 :bricks:
He is saying the new primary shoe is smaller than the old primary shoe. And the new secondary shoe is smaller than the old secondary shoe....that is all.....

@kawahonda (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/kawahonda_2011) -  I also noticed the difference in 'old' vs. 'new' pads surface area when I changed mine...

There is about 1 inch total difference less pad on rear vs rear, and about 3/4" less on the primaries...

Not sure if a different vendor makes a difference, but the ones I got from Advance Auto/Car Quest were the same as yours...

I knew exactly what you were referring to as soon as I saw your comparison!

:ohyeah:

Quote from: 73_Cuda_4_Me on June 16, 2020, 02:44:15 PM
I knew exactly what you were referring to as soon as I saw your comparison!
:ohyeah:

Me to. Anybody who has done the job will notice the difference.

I was reading the FSM regarding adjustment, and got a little bit confused.

On the adjustment steps, they say to adjust the star wheel until drag is felt. Then the next step is to basically move the starwheel in the opposition direction until no drag is felt. Then, boom, the brake is set.

But I've been reading/watching things that are very counter to that. I've been reading that you want to adjust until the wheel can spin 3/4-1 full turn with the wheel/tire on maximum. Basically, you want some drag built-in. And of course, you want to shoot for the same amount of drag one very wheel.

Anyone care to elaborate?

I'd say the FSM is a good starting point as the self adjusters, if working properly, will tighten them up if needed.   :alan2cents:

I'm sure I'll figure it out.

Today:
Bench bled MC. Took about an hour.
Installed MC
Did a check of tightness to all lines and fittings.

Next:
Bleed
Adjust drums
Drive.

With manual adjusters I tighten them until they drag and then back them off about 1/4 turn.

I think mine are automatic...? Same process?

With automatics I try to do the same although sometimes it is hard to back them off easily. When you put the drums on make sure they will slip on but not by much. Then make sure you back the car up several times ot make sure they set.

I basically adjusted them until there's little drag. Figured to let the automatic part do the rest. Fine tune if needed if the car is pulling too much one way. I have absolutely no idea if they are all set "perfectly" in sync. I didn't measure or count clicks--I just pulled the hub off, adjusted with my fingers, and slid the hub back on. I basically adjusted them until they were almost locked (barely slid on), then backed off a few turns until there's very little drag. The automatic part should be able to tighten them further if needed...I err'd on the side of too lose, rather than too tight since I assume the automatic part only goes one way. :)

I started out vacuum bleeding, then I went ahead and made my own bleeder. I bled all four corners (in the correct order). Once in awhile I get a couple microscopic air bubbles...not sure if I should be concerned about those or not. Feels like its inherent to the DOT 5 fluid. So far, I've used about 14 ounces of fluid. I'm planning to bleed again to assure it's all perfect. May decide to use a helper so that one person can visually inspect the tube.

Rebuilt the front hubs . The old bearings were definitely serviceable and could have been reused. Old school timpkins.

The satin black finish of the drums is going to look really sharp with the Magnums. I've always kinda threw-up in my mouth seeing the blotched red paint show through on them.

That's looking good.

Alright guys, I'm nearing the end of the en-devour.

I torqued the wheel bearing nut on. I assume the "bevel" side of the nut faces outward (couldn't find any confirmation in the FSM). I torqued to 90 inch pound while spinning the hub, put on the nut cover, and backed it off about 1 teeth slot. Pulling back and forth on the hub reveals no perceptual play. Rubber hammered the dented caps back on (I cleaned them out of the old grease before hand).

I also spent some more time doing the initial adjustment on the drums.

Rears: Adjusting the rears by feel is pretty difficult, especially with Suretrack because you're essentially spinning both wheels. Basically, I did it both ways...get it too tight, then back it off 8-10 clicks, and get it too loose (goes on too easy) and forward it 8-10 clicks. Either way, I consider the rears done. Spinning the wheels allows for a "scrapy scrapy" sound with almost all of the force coming simply from the differential. Good to go, I'll let the adjusters fine-tune those.

Fronts: Adjusting these is much easier since you get a total feel of the brake. I basically tightened them up quite a bit from where they were at. As of now, i can spin the drums about 1/2 - 3/4 revolution (without wheel and tire on). It's probably on the loose side, but it should brake properly until the self adjusters go to town.

So I'm going to leave it there unless advised differently.

All that's left to do is give the system one more bleed to be sure, then install wheel/tires and back it up a bunch. :)

All fittings are tight. No leaks. Things are coming along pretty darn smoothly.

I've noticed after looking closer at some of the seals in the front of the suspension (that hold the grease at the pivot points) that they are ripped/shot. I suppose that could be the next project. Always considered just dropping it off at a reputable suspension shop and having all the seals/suspension/bushings gone through. Much easier on a lift.

FWIW I also have a sure-grip rear end and I just manually turned the adjuster and slid the drum on and off until I just felt the shoes sliding on the drum. Used my hands to center the shoes between adjustments.  Made sure the adjuster lever was engaged and slid the drum on. Went to an empty parking lot a backed up a few times. After that I let the adjusters do the rest. Found it worked pretty good and took the rear end out of the process.

Alrighty! Got it on the road.

At first, there was a lack of pressure. Not hydraulic pressure, but brake pressure. That's to be expected because I left things on the loose side.

Drove it to the HS parking lot and probably did about 30 back-up and stops (pressing as hard as I could). Killed the car a few times. :)

After about 10 minutes, man, the pedal feels super rock solid and the car stops MUCH better.

It's hard to explain, but the pedal feels dynamic now for the first time, instead of just flat/binary. It feels like HULK is now under your foot. Feels really solid is all I could say. Brakes have never felt so "new" in this car since I've had it!

I did notice a couple things after cruising it around after awhile. Minor things.

1) Parking brake doesn't work very well anymore. There is an adjustment procedure, but the FSM wants you to be sure that everything is adjusted properly...which means "auto adjusted". In my opinion, this means to not rush any adjustment of the parking brake until after a few weeks of driving. Just avoid parking on hills until then. After a couple weeks, if the parking brake doesn't grab like it should, proceed to adjustment. The only reason I say this is because the shoes that I removed measured very well....not much wear, but just aged. There shouldn't be a big difference in the parking brake actuation before/after. THen again, the rear drum shoes did change sizes slightly (as mentioned previously). I just don't want to go adjusting it until I'm absolutely sure the self adjust stuff is finished!

2) I get a "whirl-whirl" sound on the passenger side ONLY during very soft/slow braking...I believe it's coming from the pass rear side. Not going to rush to take the drum off, but maybe I'll see if this goes away after more "self adjustment". If not, then a) spray brake cleaner on shoes and inner hub to assure it's clean, b) perhaps consider re-applying brake grease behind shoe contact points (I disagree with this, because I know I did). I'm not sure what else to check.

My thought is to simply just drive the car and it's likely those two items will go away. When I left the HS parking lot, the brakes felt really good. Who knows...maybe after another jaunt tomorrow and repeating the same thing they will even be better!

I do wonder if I have to stop so hard in reverse to kill the car though. LOL.

Today I worked on fine tuning the brakes some. I took a temp reading with my laser gun after 4-5 miles of driving with some solid braking. I saw the drums being in the range of 130-145F. The driver's rear being 170F.

I jacked up the car and rotated the rear tires. The driver's rear did feel a tad bit stiffer, but it was really close to the passenger rear as far as friction is concerned. I loosened the parking brake nut and rechecked the rotation, no change. This tells me the parking brake isn't playing any part and was in fact a bit loose. I removed the driver's rear wheel and shortened the star adjuster some (maybe 4-5 clicks), then remounted the tire. Now both sides feel pretty dead even.

I then proceeded to adjust the parking brake by the FSM. I did however choose to be VERY conservative as the drums are still likely bedding. Basically, I adjusted them to where you have to fully press the pedal down to the last couple notches for it to hold the car from a driveway incline. I feel like this is a good setting for now until the brakes get more of a work out, and feel better knowing that it does have some stopping power for the time being rather than none.

I retook it out on a 4-5 mile drive. Did a couple backups as well. I rechecked the temp and it's the same--the driver's rear still being 170F and giving off more odor than the rest.

Curious if this is completely normal.

I did find this quote out of a Model A magazine:

""I have checked brake drum temperature (sic) several times with a digital infrared thermometer. I have found that good working brake drums should attain a heat range of 160 degrees and 180 degrees. Temperatures over 200 degrees lead to brake fade and paint blistering of drums. Anything less than 150 degrees indicates brakes need adjustment or repair and may not be working correctly. Brake drums should be checked after 8-10 consecutive complete stops after reaching 45 M.P.H.""

Hmm: Maybe that self adjuster tightens up with less friction than the others. I would keep my eye on it for sure.

Yeah. It likes to stay 25F hotter than the rest. Pretty annoying.

I checked the axle in play for the hell of it and I'm still at .012, which is where I set it too. Plus, I know it's brakes hence the shoe smell.

Drum looks exactly like it should look per the manual. Nothing is incorrectly assembled.

If I shorten the star wheel further then I feel like the car will just adjust them back. Haha. Maybe it's still worth a try. I wish I had calipers that where large enough to measure the diameter of the shoes and hub.

Perhaps I can measure the adjuster length on the passenger rear and just mimic that length on driver side. That will assure regardless of feel if I'm way off.

I measured .5mm of additional adjuster thread on drivers rear compared to passenger rear. I reduced it to match the other side. Worth a shot!

Yes: Try it. You might need to find another adjuster for it.

Alrighty. As I was backing up out the driveway, I think I heard a "click" sound. Ugh. Kinda sounded like the adjuster somewhere wanting to take back up some slack. BUT.....

Put it in gear, and started driving off. I shifted it into "N" and just let it coast down the street....and it coasted quite well. No resistance.

About 2 miles later after "normal" braking/driving, I could tell something was starting to grab slightly again. Put it into "N" and sure enough it was slightly dragging.

Again, the rear driver's drum hub is measuring 20-40F higher than the rest. So it's definitely that wheel. I could measure the threads again to see if it "adjusted" itself back to where it was before. Is it possible for an adjuster to be too lose? Never heard of that. Probably not too lose, but maybe the "claw" part wears to where it will spin more than one tooth during adjustment?

Other possible problems:

1) Line is crimped. It's not crimped, it's new line hard line.

2) Hose is deteriorated. No it's not. It's a new hose. And if there were true I'd see problems on the other side, I would think.

3) Faulty Raybestos wheel cylinder. It's possible, but been reading VERY unlikely.

4) Parking brake is hanging up or still engaged. Not very likely, being that the parking brake right now barely works, and it didn't work worth a hell at all when the driver's rear was exhibiting the same high temps.

5) Contact points of shoes on backing plate is causing shoes to hang. Didn't do a good enough job cleaning?

Other?

Either way, it sounds like something needs to be disassembled and resolved. I probably should start off with measuring the adjuster threads again to see if I get 14mm. If I'm back at 14.5mm, with backing up and touching the brakes only 1 time, then it definitely moved more than one click. But then again, shortly after driving off after pulling out of the driveway it wasn't grabbing and rolled pretty smooth....

Just a question. Are you manually loosening the adjusters or are they needing constant adjustment. They are one way adjusters and can't back off unless something is amiss. Also,, this is just from professional experience and per the brake component manufacturers recommendations but to insure even braking especially on the fronts, the brake drums are to be replaced, like tires in pairs on each axle. this assures even gripping force and heat dissipation as a thinner drum will heat up faster than a thicker drum/lining. So the people who machined your drums should have measured the drums before they machined them and then again after they were machined to insure that they were still within the mfg.s specs. When we machined rotors and drums for customers who brought their drums/rotors into our store for machining. That was the procedure. That way if the drum/rotor was not in specs after machining was done, the customer would know that they should be replaced and if they had a vibration problem, what the cause was. Also
at least in California, the shop that machined the brake parts would be liable in case of a brake failure caused by using out of spec parts and not informing the customer.

They didn't provide specs, but they said "we barely took anything off...roughly around 4 thousandths".  And I know when I brought the drums to them they were like "oh, these can easily be turned" after measuring.

I don't think this is an issue with my drums or the resurfacing. If so, why are the ones are pretty cool...130-140F is the max I've seen them get to. This right rear loves to get to 180F and I have no doubt it would go beyond that if I drove further.

I'll measure the driver's rear adjuster threading tomorrow to see if it adjusted itself, and how much it adjusted. I only backed up and pressed the brake 1 time per the last run. That SHOULD mean one click. I've never adjusted them "longer", always shorter. Is it possible for an adjuster to jump more than 1-tooth if the paw/claw is worn?

I'll check that, and I'll probably, knowing me, wind up dissembling everything (but leaving wheel cylinder attached) and check shoe contact points. We know for a fact these things at this point:

1) after shortening the problem child's adjuster and backing up and pulling forward, I was able to coast down the street in neutral with no rolling resistance. On the way back home (after 2 miles), I could tell there was brake resistance while coasting in neutral.

2) The culprit is consistently the driver's rear wheel going by temperature. Without a doubt.

3) Lifting up the car and just spinning the rear wheels around will lead you to believe there is absolutely no problem.

Perhaps I can jack up the car tomorrow, press the brake, then spin. Press the brake again, then spin. I've noticed however on other forum posts that the problem many times won't show up there, either. Things needs to get warm first.

OK. So you have no idea what the drums are or were measuring. Only that they only took 4 thou. off.  And that they were like " Oh, these can be easily turned. " Ha Ha,  Off of what ? Don't you want to know what you have ? I just get a kick out of how technical and thorough you try to be on somethings and have no idea about the other. Self adjusters only tighten up to take up any slack that eventually happens when the shoes and drum wear, That's it. No real adjusting, just tightening. So they will not be the same on each wheel unless all the drums have the exact same inner diameter. We don't know though since they weren't measured, or I mean that the measurements were never documented for you or them. So don't worry about matching one sides thread count to the other. It won't. The best you can hope for is that you don't get a hard brake pull when the brakes get hot and start to fade. One of the reasons that drum brakes haven't been used on the front of cars for about 50 years now. . Overall a good thread though. Just for laughs, why not take your car to a certified brake mechanic and have them do a thorough brake inspection including documenting the drums specs. so will have a known starting point and verification that everything is working properly. Just like taking your car to have the alignment checked after you do front end parts replacement.  Always better to have a trained pair of eyes to safety check it for you. I always had the techs have another tech double check their work before the drums/ wheels went back on. Anyone can make a mistake.

  ....... Just a theory.... What if the passenger side rear adjuster isn't working as effectively as the drivers side for some reason?  Is the imbalance not the cause of the extra heat on drivers side? 

I'm curious too.  Only my right right is hotter than the left. New drums and shoes and all new spring and hardware parts. No brake smell on either rear.  All the replacement parts are probably from China. Is that the problem? I did go through three Chinese wheel cylinders that kept blowing out the seals on the right side. Used one of my older wheel cylinders to fix it.

I did one wheel at a time, so I did not mix up the star wheels.

Let's confirm the correct direction.

Here is the offending wheel. Rotating the star wheel upwards lengthens (tightens). Same if I where to pull upward on the adjustment cable. This appears logically correct.

The star wheel on the offending wheel threads moved to 14.25 from 14.00. So it did tighten incrementally--it did not over-tighten. So I think the adjuster operation is correct here.

I rotated the wheel, stepped on the brake, then spun the wheel again. I couldn't reliabily tell if spinng the wheels was harder after breaking. So if it's "dragging", it must be dragging during heated operation.

On the shoe backing contact surfaces, I used regular synthetic  heat resistant "racing" grease. In-fact, according to the data sheet it is rated for 160F constant temp and 180F peak temp. This grease is applicable for wheel bearings. So I don't think this was the wrong grease to use.

Maybe pad contact surfaces are rough and/or shoe contact surfaces are not smooth and should be filed?

On both rear wheels, the parking break "bar" is loose and is not under any pressure.

The only thing I know to do next is dissemble each rear wheel and to inspect pad surfaces.

How much fluid do you guys recommend being in the master cylinder? Mine fill level is a little under 1/4" to the top of the bowls. Edit: Manual says within 1/4" to top, so I have this right. Hmmm.

Sorry for the influx of posts, but I think I found an issue. It may very well be related.

I decided to start yanking on the e-brake cables. The passenger side cable I can get to "move" when I pull on it. The driver's side cable is seized...I cannot get it to move by "pulling" on it.

It's probably time for a new parking brake cable. For the meantime, I may spray some PB blaster and lubricant in the hose to see if I clean it out for the meantime.

Even though the cable has some slack, I can easily see during chassis movements that the cable could "expand" itself (the primary end of the cable rests on the chassis), and then get "stuck" in certain positions if it's corroded. That's probably what's happening. That's why you can lift the car, and not see an issue, but after road use, with enough flex/force that cable can move, and then easily get stuck.

Confidence is about 80% that is what's going on.

Would switching drums from side to side , in case there is a different drum thickness , be something to try ?

That would definitely be a way to see if the hub is out of round or something strange! Good idea. I may try that. For now, the ebrake kit is on the way!

OK, who has knowledge of how the heck to install the front brake cable starting with the linkage?

The pedal assembly looks pretty closed off. I can see a pivot pin, but how the heck do I swap this? Am I supposed to remove the entire parking brake pedal assembly?

Yes: I demount the pedal from the cowl to hook it up.

Thank you! WIll do that over the next couple days.

Man, the underneath of this car is really clean, especially with brand new lines and cables across the board!

It is in the Factory Service Manual that you have downloaded.

What is?

The procedure to install the parking brake cable.

I do have the hard manual (just so you know), and it actually does not accurately say to remove the parking brake assembly. Take a look!

It's an incredibly poorly written section. Hence, why I posted.

Completed replacing parking brake cables.

I drove for about 6 miles. Didn't notice any drag while coasting the entire time, unlike before.

Top speed was 45. Did a lot of hard breaking. Probably 20 miles total break in so far.

Pulled into the garage, and driver's rear is still 30-50F hotter depending on where I point my gun. Could still smell break shoe smell when I pulled in. No steam this time though. Some spots through the wheel measured 300F. I have not shot the back side of the brakes yet (brake plate). The driver's rear hub cap definitely felt "hot" compared to all other wheels. Could keep my hand on it for about 3-4 seconds, then too hot to hold...

Am I worrying about nothing here? My thoughts were to swap the rear drums and to re-test. If problem carries over, then perhaps I should install my brand new rear hubs.

I need to know if I'm screwing around about a whole lot of nothing. Trying to do it right and do it safe.

Definitely not a problem with anything with the hydraulic system. Push break, release brake, wheel spins just fine, hot or cold. I don't think wheel cylinder is at fault. Adjuster is not over tightening either.

There was a post on another forum with the right rear hotter. Everything was replaced including the drums. The poster took his right drum off and found it was out of round and the shop had to make three passes to get it round. That solved his problem. I also have a hotter right drum, but not as hot as yours. I'm also going to have it turned. Both my drums are Bendix, but I think there made in China. I'd be willing to bet the 'made in China' drum is the problem. In my rebuild, I blew out three Chinese made wheel cylinders before I got one to work.

You may be right about the wheel cylinder...because that's where I'm heading next!

I swapped the rear hubs, and the problem still exist on the driver's rear. I can feel some dragging by coasting in neutral.

The car also pulls left during braking--just more evidence that the driver's rear is the culprit.

My thinking is to order another new wheel cylinder for the driver's rear, and replace both rear adjusters for the hell-uvit.

Obviously replacing a wheel cylinder means bleeding the brakes again. Curious: Does this mean the full bleeding process @ 4-corners?

Thanks!

Quote from: kawahonda on July 12, 2020, 03:32:07 PM
You may be right about the wheel cylinder...because that's where I'm heading next!

I swapped the rear hubs, and the problem still exist on the driver's rear. I can feel some dragging by coasting in neutral.

The car also pulls left during braking--just more evidence that the driver's rear is the culprit.

My thinking is to order another new wheel cylinder for the driver's rear, and replace both rear adjusters for the hell-uvit.

Obviously replacing a wheel cylinder means bleeding the brakes again. Curious: Does this mean the full bleeding process @ 4-corners?

Thanks!

When I went through my ritual, I only bled the rear since that side of the system was opened.

I would only bleed the one wheel where you opened the line.
So how many miles have you put on the car since the brake job?   I just took my car to get an alignment and the mechanic said that the brakes need some time to bed in before everything equalizers, so to speak.  I think he said about 50 miles or so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pulling when breaking is usually front breaks, I have tightened up the opposite side of the pull a little. Maybe a couple of clicks or so. Wheel cylinders I all was change in pairs.    :alan2cents:

Is this driver's side axle housing bent, or is this this area being a little concave normal for the casting?

They are stampings, not castings. Not normal.

Well, this could very well explain the heat build-up.

I could either A) Try out the new wheel cyl and adjusting hardware on both sides, or B) stop now, and remove third member. Ugh, what a pain to have to find this out now.

How the hell does that even happen? Is this repairable, or am I now looking for a new third member?

Thats looks damaged but I don't think it wouldd affect the brakes.

Try a dial indicator on the axle's, That will tell you if the axle has any run-out.  :alan2cents:

Quote from: JS29 on July 18, 2020, 05:30:03 PM
Try a dial indicator on the axle's, That will tell you if the axle has any run-out.  :alan2cents:

Good idea. I was also planning to mark center point of third member, and both axle sides as well and "connect the dots". That may help tell the story with the dial indicator idea.

My axles have been professionally "rebuilt" (if that's a such thing). New tappered bearings were installed. I'm pretty sure the shop would have tested them for straightness. The dial indicator idea would still work to determine a bent housing I would assume.

Quote from: RUNCHARGER on July 18, 2020, 05:01:40 PM
Thats looks damaged but I don't think it wouldd affect the brakes.

The PO (a good friend of mine and a member here) was chasing a heated brake issue for a long time. He informed me that he found a bent axle housing, and that solved the issue. Makes sense, because the drum hub connects to the axle (well, actually everything does). For him, straightening the axle housing fixed his issue because he's tried everything prior.

Not information I really liked to hear, but my job is to track down the issue. It gets tiring having to pull off the wheels so much and try little things specific to the brakes....maybe this could be the reason...maybe not. Now would be a good time to check it I suppose.

Would be a big job pulling third member...a good winter project, but a piss-poor summer project. :)

Rechecked my thrust play. .016". That's in spec, but a little bit on the big side.

Considering to tighten that a little, but I would suppose that wouldn't be the issue here.

I'll take a look at axle run-out tomorrow.

Thrust play: .016"
Drivers rear runout: .007"

I measured to the best of my ability to determine any bending.

Top sticky is laser beam from backing plate to backing plate.
Bottom sticky is tape measure to center to center of tire tread.

These measurements are not showing any abnormalities.

Here is picture of new cylinder and adjuster hardware.

Picture is important because is shows which area of the shoes were getting toasty.

Notice it's the rear shoe.

The "dent" in the axle would suggest that the housing would be pushed "backwards" and downwards. This matches the heat profile of the shoe.

However, my measurement methods cannot pick this up as a fact.

I made an infographic to help solicit opinions. I wouldn't mind measuring more, but there are obstructions in the way that keep me from running a straight line.

I basically want to assure that there isn't any problem with the axle housing.

It appears that my laser measuring is picking up some discrepancy. We're looking at .08".

 I'm not sure what this means but if I'm understanding the #s relationships
the backing plates at the rear are closer          52.95-52.87= 0.08
while the rear tire centers are further apart     61.25-61.375= -0.125
   the stack of these two differences being 0.205
Is it possible that the backing plate has been bent?     

Yea, The tires I would take more with a grain of salt. I didn't spin the tires when measuring. There could be slight differences in the tread/tolerances there. That's also with the GF holding the measuring tape. haha!

You're understanding is spot on as far as the backing plates. I should revise however, is that I measured from the rear drum flange to the other side rear drum flange, and not the backing plates themselves. Not enough room to measure accurately from backing plates.

You're pretty much where I'm at, is that .008" variation is what I'm seeing drum flange to drum flange, which is matching what the physical damage is saying. I'm not sure what is allowable, but it appears I am picking up the very slight bend. Not sure if I need to act on it or not though...

Acting on it is a big job. Ignoring it and throwing it all back together with another new wheel cylinder and adjuster hardware all to see it get super hot again after a short put-around is not necessarily a fix, either. 

Curious on what you guys would do. I don't recall the old-ass rear driver shoes/brakes getting hot....maybe they just had ample time to wear in.

   :thinking:    Seems to me you could put a straight edge across the axle face & measure the distance to the edges of the backing plate to see what the relationship is there... 

Thought I would update, probably one last time.

So I've been driving the car for the past couple days after replacing rear adjusters and driver's rear cylinder. Bled it a few times (all the way around, twice).

I noticed the brakes feel softer than the way it was before I replaced the wheel cylinder. Not soft as in not bled correctly, just a little more dynamic. Hard to explain, but it definitely feels right. I left my new rear adjusters on the loose side, so that could have something to do with it. They possibly could need some more time to adjust.

Anyways, brakes at this point I would consider done. The driver's rear does still get hotter, but this time isn't too hot to hold onto the hubcap of the magnum 500. After a 5-6 mile ride, I can easily hold onto it. Before, it was too hot to hold on to.

So definitely moving in the right direction! It's probably all about giving the shoes ample time to brake in.

I also changed my rear bearing play from .015-.016 to .012-.013.

About one month ago I was backing up out of the drive way, and I had to "put the pedal to the metal" to stop the car. Not an emergency stop that really required a lot of "foot", but one where the brakes simply felt very off. This was on a Friday, which would have been a cool "drive into the office day."

My first thought is the fluid bled out. Walked in the garage and saw zero wet spots. Pulled it in.

My father came up and I had planned for us to bleed the brakes (again) since it was a pressure-related issue. My father used a technique that I didn't know is right or wrong, but he "pumped" the brakes before I opened the valve. We went through all 4-corners again. Hardly had to refill any fluid in the M/C after all four corners. I noticed that the rear brakes did not bleed so easily...not much came out, even with a pretty heavy foot. The front brakes bled as expected. I was wondering if the proportioning valve was going bad, but we decided to give it a test drive after.

Wow! The car stops amazingly good.

I let him drive a 15 mile ride to look at houses around Idaho. It was his first, and furthest taking a Dodge vehicle away from home. He had a smile the whole time. No issues. We even drove it home when it was dark, which was way cool. A Ford man driving a Dodge and having a blast. It was such a cool experience for me.

Love this car.