Took both my classics out on the weekend, me in my Mustang and my buddy drove the Cuda. Seeing him in my rear view mirrow going around curves, wow! that's some serious body roll! - kinda reminds me of the Bud Linderman videos of the 60's and 70's.
I feel it doesn't handle that well when I drive it, but now I see part of the problem. It has the 426 in it so that's uber heavy, stock suspension and all new with less than 1500 miles on it.
What changes would you prescribe to help the handling around corners?
Do you want to keep it stock looking ? I wonder if they upgraded the torsion bars when adding the Hemi ?
Obvious one would be bigger sway bars, but also bigger torsion bars, factory bars are horribly under sprung.
Yup: Bigger sway bars and bigger torsion bars. Also if you want to spend money, aluminum heads, WP etc. 17 inch rallyes with low profile tires helps as well.
If they didn't upgrade your torsion/sway bars, did they look at your rear springs or shocks?
Looks like throwing a hemi in our cars that did not come with one requires some extra components.
These upgrades are never just that simple I guess.
Sub frame connectors are worth the time and money to install. Does your car have sway bars? Aluminium heads, intake, radiator, water pump, mini starter, Borgeson box will lighten up the front approx. 74lbs.
When we put the hemi in my 70 challenger we added a lot stiffeners to keep the torque under control.
http://store.uscartool.com/dodge-challenger-E-Body-chassis-stiffening-pack.html
I have a full steel hemi in my car and a world block to boot so extra weight in that casting for sure. I put the street handling torsion bars on it and a set of fourth-year-old super stock rear springs so I could relocate the rear springs for tire clearance. The front sway bar is so big I had to put it in through the k frame before mounting the skid plate, 1. 25 I believe and the rear is close to one inch 7/8? I think. I put truck shocks on the rear to get the longer shock I needed for travel d 100 1974 I believe
. It feels good without being harsh and it goes around corners ok, I still don't trust it totally with all that weight on the nose but I think it handles way better than some of the stock 440 and 383 cars I have owned in the past so I'm happy with it. Still, not a small block feel but hey it's a Hemi.
At this point, stock looking isn't too important. Coming from the highly modified early Mustang crowd, I do see that the Mopar crowd values originality much more. I do want to travel and have fun in this car so some good quality new engineering is welcome.
Using 17" Rallyes and new rubber. A big difference over the Polyglas and 15"s
Can you see the torsion bar type from this photo?
(https://image.ibb.co/d3VErS/IMG_2002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nK3ZrS)
bbcode image link (https://imgbb.com/)
With that level of restoration, I would hope they put larger torsion bars in. Although it may be hard to see.....well it's on a hoist look at the open end of the torsion bar for a three digit part number should be 780 781 to handle the weight of the Hemi. if you want to improve them, you can buy aftermarket larger ones :alan2cents:
Know that you will never match a GT40 or Cobra for handling but you can get a much better feel than stock.
On my ride I did (keeps it somewhat stock looking):
1.06 Torsion bars
Large front sway bar
QA1 adjustable shocks all around
Hemi/440-6 rear leaf springs
Moog offset bushings - more caster/camber
Also have sub-frame connectors which stiffens it up
With the power steering it's a breeze to throw it around so I will be adding in the washers to bring down the psi on the pump to give a little bit more road feel.
Having owned my 70 RT/SE for 44 years I can give some tips but I won't go in depth. The more you go with (lean towards) handling, the further you will stray from stock components. The replacement components can be made to look more stock but eventually you will enter the realm of "modified" (one of the categories I frequently see at car shows).
Tires with compounds (UTOG) of ~200 will help get you there. Lower profile aspect ratios of these tires in wider widths with properly matched wheel widths will help big time. For example, I use a 275/50/15 rather than a 275/60/15 for this very reason. So if you think of the tires as what is making the car slide you would be correct. Tires however, have nothing to do with body lean or roll.
Suspension components that need to be addressed would be torsion bars, front sway bar, rear sway bar, rear leaf springs, and shocks. These are all the main components that have a direct control over roll and sway. I have left out control arms, steering linkage components, strut rods, bushings, and etc. These are not main components but things like bushings and attaching points locations can be optimized while still looking stock.
Transferring weight from front to rear (i.e., aluminum components up front battery to rear) is almost as important as everything else previously mentioned. So is lowering (not slamming) chassis. Try to maintain a 1* (degree) rake.
The fun part for me is looking stock from the outside (even with widened rallyes and tires) and having a flat cornering machine. If you can (without scratching) put weight on one front corner of a fender and the opposite side also lowers then you are on the right track. Have fun, be safe, and good luck.
Thx everyone. The stock look isn't too important. I know the restoration was very authentic but I wasn't the one throwing gobs of money at it. Just good timing on my part. I'll take a look at the torsion bar part#'s. The rear springs are hemi/440 type. I believe offset with one more leaf on one side.
The power steering upgrade is in the future as well. Right now, I'm focusing on converting to dual quad fuel injection and the front end handling.
a pair of calipers (or open end wrench) on the diameter of the torsion & sway bars will answer the question quicker
stock '70 HEMI torsion bars were 0.92" dia. (<15/16") front sway bar 0.88" dia. (7/8")
Or... You can just install a Hotchkis TVS kit and pretty much be done with it without piecing bits together. I also installed the XV suspension package but unfortunately is no longer available.
Quote from: 6bblgt on February 13, 2018, 01:16:30 PM
a pair of calipers (or open end wrench) on the diameter of the torsion & sway bars will answer the question quicker
stock '70 HEMI torsion bars were 0.92" dia. (<15/16") front sway bar 0.88" dia. (7/8")
Thank you! I'll measure them up.
I don't agree that you have to ugly it up to make it handle. Larger torsion bars and bigger sway bars along with good shocks will do a world of good. Along with tires of course, Polyglas GT's were great (well compared with other bias tires that is).
My T Bars are 1.25.
PST had them years ago. Haven't seen them since.
Car handles pretty good.
Quote from: Topcat on February 13, 2018, 10:15:03 PM
My T Bars are 1.25.
PST had them years ago. Haven't seen them since.
Car handles pretty good.
really 1.25" I haven't seen that size available? :bradsthumb:
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on February 13, 2018, 09:11:38 PM
I don't agree that you have to ugly it up to make it handle. Larger torsion bars and bigger sway bars along with good shocks will do a world of good. Along with tires of course, Polyglas GT's were great (well compared with other bias tires that is).
:iagree: 1000% don't ugly-it-up just for the sake of body roll....
Two things that I'll consider right away would be to change the sway bar and torsion bars to larger diameter versions. I do want to keep the hemi K member. I don't think that I'll go the pro touring route on this car. Just some subtle mods to improve driveability. The dual TB EFI is going to be fun to design and install under the shaker.
Thanks everyone, this is such a fantastic and respectable forum. I don't see any overblown egos on this site compared to other forums that I'm on.
(https://preview.ibb.co/jvPnBS/IMG_0204_Edited.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eAu9Qn)
upload image to webside (https://imgbb.com/)
First thing of all is find out what size t-bar and front s-bar you have, as well as the rear s-bar, if it has one. They likely need stepped up, maybe even a lot, but we don't want to automatically just go with huge x large.
Ultimately, with an Elephant on the nose, you are undersprung. All cars of that era are undersprung in comparison to modern cars, so you probably will find you can step it up quite a bit.
Quote from: Brads70 on February 14, 2018, 03:29:33 AM
Quote from: Topcat on February 13, 2018, 10:15:03 PM
My T Bars are 1.25.
PST had them years ago. Haven't seen them since.
Car handles pretty good.
really 1.25" I haven't seen that size available?
Firm Feel can make em that big or even bigger if you swapped in C body hexes. MP used to make 1.24 units that you can sometimes find floating around on the interwebs.