This word, "restoration", gets thrown around quite a bit. What exactly constitutes a true "restoration"? 99% of all "so called" restored cars are no more than "made nice". True restorations are extremely difficult and expensive, if you've never tried one and understand the process, it's easy to throw the word "restoration" around.
If 75% of the most difficult work is farmed out to others and your portion of the "make nice" process pertains to assembly and some jingle can painting, are you really a "restorer"? How about just a really talented project manager. There are very few that don't rely on outside talent to perform the most difficult part of the work on the car.
I own a "real" restoration shop, down draft heated paint booth, spot welders and all the other equipment to perform a true "restoration". Do all our own interiors and engines (less machine work) with the ability to do all our own metal plating except chrome. We rely very little on outside companies when restoring a car, that's why we can easily do a car in 6 months from start to finish without compromise. Once the hard work is completed (metal work, body/paint), we will have the car down on its wheels and completely finished in 2 weeks. I've been working on these cars for over 35 years and the guy that works with me has been at it since the late sixties and it's still a challenge sometimes.
Even with all the resources and knowledge we have here, we still fall short of "restoring" cars in the true sense of the word, ie. date coded everything, assembly line correct parts, and most importantly, NO JINGLE CAN painting in a 2 car garage!
So I ask, what exactly constitutes a "restoration"?
res-to-ra-tion
[res-tuh-rey-shuh n]
noun
1. the act of restoring; renewal, revival, or reestablishment.
2. the state or fact of being restored.
3. a return of something to a former, original, normal, or unimpaired condition.
I have always admired what you have done for the hobby and it has made it easier for a lot of us. One thing that I like about this hobby is there are many different levels to it. I know when I first got started in the hobby just putting a seat cover on a seat frame made me feel like a million bucks and that I did something cool. It gave me the confidence to continue to learn and try to do more. There's also the side of this hobby where people love the cars, but prefer not to do all the work and small details, so they choose a different route. It doesn't mean they love their car any more or less. That's why it's great having different levels and different ways to do it. If anyone is thinking about taking on a restoration, then I will be the first one to tell you that you can do it! It might not be an OEM gold winning car your first time doing a restoration, but do it the best you can and take pride in what you accomplish. But it also comes at a huge cost, there's a lot of time learning and a lot of money that goes in to restoring a car. If it's more about saving money and enjoying driving the car, you might be happier paying someone else to do it or buying a done car. Either way, the word "restoration" means a lot of things to a lot of people. To me restoring a car means doing something I love, meeting other like minded people that also enjoy it and in the end getting to share and be part of something that will most likely be here after I'm long gone. :alan2cents:
And "restoration" compared with "Restomod" and "Custom".
To me:
Restomod: Maintaining as much of the original appearance of the car as you can while upgrading the drive train and suspension to modern standards.
Custom: Upgrade the drive train and the suspension. Also, change the overall appearance of the car. This often includes big wheels and custom modifications to the body and interior.
:thinking:
99% of the people I talk to don't seem to care what it's called and "restoration" is a far easier word to use in conversation to describe improving the quality of a car entirely. Not to discount the efforts of a true "restoration", I feel it is a word people in the weeds within that industry may get caught up on more than the general population. My efforts are not out to generate revenue against the efforts of another, they are in a bubble, more or less.
It would be like a
First Aid Fabric Strip manufacturer getting upset that people call their product "Band-aid". They may care, but most everyone else doesn't think twice about it. Life goes on.
My car is obviously not "restored" to represent anything that left the factory in the 70's, given that, what word would someone use to describe my efforts?
"I finished the car recently and have put about 1,800 miles on it since _____________ . "
- "the restoration"? No, it's not original to anything.
- "I rebuilt it"? No, I didn't take what was there [not original] and freshen it up again
- "I put a hot mess of new and used parts together from different generations to make some things new, but not new like they were back in 1972." Perhaps more accurate, but it doesn't roll off the tongue quite as easily.
:thinking:
I use "restoration" in conversation, at a high-level, it's easy for people to get what I am talking about. If I ran into someone that wanted to challenge me on that word I used, I'd simply find someone else to talk to. I'm not really in need of defending it to anyone. :stayinlane:
So I own a sandblaster, made a small home made paint booth to paint small parts.
If I sandblast a part and repaint it with correct style paint did I restore it less than you just because you have a big shop?
There is room in this hobby for every one at every level. Words only have the definition you give them. If you get angry every time someone uses the term restoration I don't think the classic car world needs to change I think you need to re-assess your definition of restoration and realise that how "restoration" is used in the classic car world isn't going to change.
You may hold your restorations to a higher standard but returning something to normal condition, or a renewal, as you said in your own definition, does not imply that it needs to be fully OE original. Why are there three definitions to the word restoration? because it's does not only mean your narrow view.
Restoration is a tricky thing to undertake. How far will you go to rebuild, refurbish or replace any particular part while mimicking factory fit and finish has to be in the restorers mind every step of the way. I have a lot of respect for the individual that buys in and accomplishes turning back time. Based on the rarity of the car it can reward you handsomely. I myself was around when these dinosaurs roamed the streets looking to devour the other alsorans. I also remember how dangerous they were when stopping and turning occurred. The vapor lock on a hot day and the price of gas then made anybody laugh at the mention of mileage. I am of the Steve Austin frame of mind when it comes to resto modding a non collectable car. No not the wrestler you young bucks know but the Six Million Dollar Man Steve Austin. The we have the technology, we can make it better frame of mind. While in some senses I enjoy the purists take on restoration I prefer the hotroders aspect more. Viva la difference :veryexcited:.
:popcorn:
My :alan2cents: ... I suspect the OP was referring to "concourse restorations" Like Cody said there are different levels of restoration. Alan for example never claims to provide "concourse restorations" I'd say Shane Kelly described it best.
Personally I'd have zero interest in owning a "concourse restoration" car regardless of how much money I have as they are museum pieces, 1:1 scale diecasts if you will. I want to drive them! :burnout: Not my cup of tea if you will, but I sure enjoy looking at them and admire the skill/dedication required to build/have one.
The true definition of restoration is - the act or the process of returning something to its original condition, or to a state similar to its original condition. Very few cars out there are actually true restorations, most are incorrect ina lot of details or very over restored, ie fully painted undercarriages, show quality paint everywhere. Like Mike said the term restoration commonly is used for any of our old cars that are at least partially fixed up but obviously there is a difference between a driver quality resto and a Mopar Nats OE Gold winner and as said there is room in the hobby for all of them. I think the OP is concerned about people throwing the word around a lot and not really knowing the true meaning or difference between a nice looking car and a car done to the extent he and some others do.
Quote from: Shane Kelley on February 07, 2018, 06:57:54 AM
For one thing there are different levels of restoration.
1-Full blown concourse nut and bolt with all the numbers in place. Drips, runs etc. Looks identical to something that sat on the showroom floor. Investment only cars!
2-Over restored cars. Like @Cuda Cody (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/cuda-cody_1) does. Finish, fit and quality are higher than the factory ever dreamed of. These can be investment cars or driven.
3-Over restored day 2 cars. Cars that are high quality in every aspect but with bolt on mods. Headers, wheels and engine tweaks. These cars will be original in every aspect except bolt on items. These cars are to drive and enjoy. (My preference) I don't want to just look at and pet it with a micro fiber all the time. I want to play with it!
Question. If a car is restored to perfection and don't have the correct markings on everything is it still a restored car?
Just because a person can do everything in house doen't make their cars any nicer than the guy who farms out some of the processes.
You hit the nail dead square on the head Shane.
1)
Concourse Restorations (AKA - Trailer Queen/Museum Piece) - With the unreliability of these cars right from the showroom floor, how long do you think they actually stayed as Concourse Perfect? As soon as you needed to replace something because it failed or wore out, was it still a Concourse Restoration? I bought my 70 AAR in 1979 with only 32,000 miles on it (it was only driven in 3 winters and I cleaned and repaired way too much rust for a car with that low miles and barely winter driven, lets face it, alot of these cars were built with inferior, cheap and often times recycled steel that never had impurities removed properly during the process) there were already parts on it that were replaced and when you tried to get the part from Chrysler, they were already OBSOLETE, so you had no choice but to buy aftermarket parts if you were lucky enough that someone repopped it (very unlikely in the late 70's/early 80's, more often than not you were making a trip to the junkyard to see if you could find the part, and lets face it all you wanted to do was get it running again and did not care if the Date matched your car.
You could have bought one of these cars, took it home and parked it in a climate controlled vault and the damn things would have still rusted, so in the Concourse definition, it should still have some surface rust on it, because a lot of it was bare metal right from the factory. How many Concourse restorations do you see like that, I'll almost guarantee NONE, because most of the unpainted / untreated parts at the very least are clear coated or protected with some type a coating to preserve it during a Concourse restoration. Almost ALL Concourse restorations are done as Investment ONLY projects by someone looking to make a profit. Nothing wrong with that at all, just NOT my Restoration preference.
2)
Over Restored Improved Day 1 or Better Restorations - These cars are done more for the LOVE of the car the person doing it have always dreamed about, but maybe could not attain or were too young to obtain when they were new. The ones that do these Restorations are almost guaranteed that they will be driving and enjoying them, Why invest that much time, frustration, etc (just to look at it, show pictures of it and brag that you have it) because as soon as you drive it, you will never be able to keep it looking the way that it did when you finished it. The first time you drive it down the road, the undercarriage will never look the same as when you finished it, but do you care, probably not because you are living out your dream and taking the satisfaction of doing some/most/or all (dependent of your skill level) of the work required to accomplish this sometimes daunting and very expensive accomplishment.
3)
Over Restored Day 2 Restorations (Bolt On Mods) - Quoting Shane "Cars that are high quality in every aspect but with bolt on mods. Headers, wheels and engine tweaks. These cars will be original in every aspect except bolt on items. These cars are to drive and enjoy. (My preference) I don't want to just look at and pet it with a micro fiber all the time. I want to play with it!"
This is MY Preference as well , my AAR only has bolt on additions (Headers, Internal Engine Tweaks & Non-Vacuum 6 - pak Carbs) just because it runs better, is more reliable and performs much much better with these additions.4)
Resto-Mod and Custom Restorations - These have their own place and are self explanatory and if this is what is chosen then they also have their place because these are done more than likely for the simple fact that the person doing or buying them are still Restoring a piece of history and adding a Modern Twist.
The bottom line is, RESTORATION is just a WORD and however you interpret it is up to the individual preference.
They are ALL good. We are just the caretakers of these amazing creations of the original creators imaginations (so doesn't that make them ALL RESTO - MODS in the first place). The people involved in creating these cars, I'm sure never imagined that they would still be ALIVE and as DESIRABLE almost 50 years later. That is truly a piece of history.
The more of these cars that can be saved the better no matter how they are
RESTORED.
Let's be honest, Restoration means restoring to original or like new condition. Customizing means modifying to our personal tastes. How many of us in our "restorations" modify. We tape the cowl when we black it out, we cut and buff, we spray undercoating way to neat,etc,etc. So if you want to look at the exact definition of the words, most of us fall into the customizer category instead of being a restorer. If someone walks into my shop and tells me they want me to "restore" their car, that tells me nothing. The word can mean anything from a paint job to a numbers match job. Are aftermarket weatherstripping parts or aftermarket anything considered true to the restoration in a strict definition of the word. I would think not. But how many of us can afford chasing all NOS parts. I know we can"t. And yet we are trying to"restore" our projects to as close as we can to original but definitely overrestore or customize to get a better finished product. Like so many things in life, it all boils down to how you define the word.
My hat goes off to those that tackle restorations in any form - from purist to general enthusiast.
I consider myself a re-builder, not a restorer... pick a portion needing work, disassemble, fix/repair, put back together, drive...
There's pros/cons and 'PC' views for all, and I choose to enjoy the smiles of the grandsons after a ride in papa's cuda that melts the heart...
:alan2cents:
I am not a restorer or a re-builder or even a mechanic. I am a average car enthusiast. Love cars old and new. My resto-mod was built by a car enthusiast in his garage. :vipermanhiding:
I think it's great if you actually own a business and do all the work in house and restore a car back to factory new. My hats off to you! :twothumbsup:
But I look at a lot of the people on here who take a rusty hulk and breath life back into it and have the utmost respect for the time,money, blood sweat and tears and most of all skill.
Doesn't matter to me if you send it out for paint or have the interior upholstered by someone else.
My definition of a restoration is exactly whats taking place on this site by a lot of the people here who love cars. And 99% of the average people out there would probably agree. :alan2cents:
To those who have finished a ____________________, I salute you.
As for Shane's description of a ___________________, :clapping:
:alan2cents:
1) An organization is created (how about MOPAR? - Mopar Organization of Professional Automotive Restorers) which steps forward to rein things in. The top 30 (just my own arbitrary number) names in Mopar specific knowledge; production numbers, date codes, fender tags, build sheets, part numbers, colors, methods of assembly, etcetera - as many as it takes to insure that incorrect datum and procedures are proved incorrect just as surely as correct datum and procedures are proved correct. Both ways to satisfaction. We're all human and we all know that knowledge is power, so equalize the knowledge and move forward.
2) MOPAR will then need to establish verifiable criteria regarding Mopar restorations. How? That free flowing knowledge from step one, just as Cody has shown with e-bodies.org. By assembling irrefutable documentation not just as the base, but more importantly open to all so that future customer is as informed as can be, there can be little question left other than "How much will I be charged for service 'X' or service 'Y' or services A through Z?". Now let the buyer research and beware.
3) MOPAR approved rebuilder/restorers. Carburetors, wiper motors, instrument clusters, small electrical components, radiators, exhaust systems, labels and decals. They each have specialists - no small feat and not by accident to be sure - who are roundly praised across the various forums by the little guys as well as among the top restorers. These folks specialize - they perform the service(s) and do it better than anyone else by most, if not all, accounts. Think of all the threads out there asking who is best at seatbelts or power brake boosters and more often than not, the same handful people or businesses are recommended.
4) It gets deep at this point. Mopar has a rich history and the models with their respective supporters to represent that history. A12 cars, A990 cars, SE/A78 cars, Trans-Am cars, Wing Cars, Los Angeles or Hamtramck built cars and more. There is quite a lot of crossover by this point and 'Registries' become invaluable for the accumulated resources they may provide.
5) Restify or Restomod. Free form is going on here - mixed with personal taste and lots of $$$$$$ As an example, think Rob Kindig and the crew at Kindig It Design. No Restify or Restomod here as they call it like it is and refer to themselves as "A Custom Car Fabrication Shop".
Maybe MOPAR could even ask Rush to paraphrase the words of Closer To The Heart as a theme song :) :handshake: :)
Rebuilders and Restorers. Each must know their part. Build a new reality. Closer to the Heart. Closer to the heart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY2iKzm62AM
:alan2cents:
Wow, I feel like I just read my notes from a college philosophy class.
I would think that most of us have many different types of "restorations" going on.
I plan to "restore" my car as a driver, to be driven and enjoyed.
I take the time to date code the parts that I remove just to see how much of the car is original and to best determine when the car was actually built, when parts were added and when the car was completed. This is fun for me.
I do not worry about obtaining exact date coded parts or NOS only and try to buy the best quality new parts when available or clean up the old ones if possible to be reused.
I do not plan to build a Barrett Jackson special, with so many people building cars to the max or fixing up just to flip them.
:wrenching:
Has off to people who put the time work and effort to build a concourse car. They are beautiful.
But congrats to people that build the car the way they want to, to drive and enjoy the car as it was meant to be enjoyed.
If you building your car somewhere in the middle: Enjoy the journey!
I usually do not modify beyond what might have been available from the factory, but would like to add factory options at my discretion. (maybe adding factory leather seats in same color, adding power windows or a rear factory luggage rack. or even something as simple as upgrading the front disc brakes to the later larger inner bearing)
There is enough e-body diversity here for everyone.
Let's stay diverse and be happy!
(a picture of what I started with and working on)
Owned since 1979 and finally working on it.
Obviously the person "restoring" their own vehicle isn't willing/doesn't have the funds to pay someone else...And so the restoration quality is limited to the person's own abilities..Some are great and some...Well, not so great...
But from a business standpoint Mike you're correct the word "restoration" is a much abused word..We as a community, know your quality of work and your contributions to the HOBBY...I could name a few high caliber resto shops around the country that,if the need arises could perform a national level resto on the vehicle or it's components...The end result would be for competition,profit, or acknowledgement with the said vehicle...
The business animosity begins when you have "restoration" shops performing as you say "orchestrated jingle can assembly" where they have no body shop to control quality or costs.. No equipment for various common mopar plating finishes and/or orchestrated lot plating on a schedule..Instead the rattle can gets the job for the "finish" throughout the process... The project costs reflect the subed out components and the inflated assembly labor....And when the finished vehicle rolls out of the "restoration" shop..The owner or the shop can't understand why it's a hard sale at the accepted price of a truly restored quality job...
Now you have a situation where two similar vehicles, side by side command the same price but are vastly different in terms of fit,finish and accepted standards...The shop that performed the correct work is appalled by a jingle can resto is even categorized in the same field but the owners both feel their cars are worth the same...
Ultimately it's up to the potential buyer to do their homework,research the vehicle and determine if the car is truly worth the asking price...
Like it or not,there seems to be a need for the gingle can resto shops or they wouldn't be surviving around the country...But to imply these completed vehicles can compete at a national level or be worth the accepted value of a correctly restored vehicle is only a smokescreen to keep the money rolling from the owner to the shop....
On the bright side I guarantee you a knowledgeable collector isn't buying one of those vehicles or ringing their phone for services..That's where your phone is ringing....
The best thing about this hobby is there's room for everybody. From the guy in his backyard doing his restoration all by himself, to the fancy shops charging an arm and a leg for a restoration.... :grouphug: :cheers:
I think many are good with understanding level of restoration and limitations of money, skill, dedication, and desired expectation. Agree there's room for all.
I get more upset by misrepresentation and the way many promote "nut and bolt restoration" or "rotisserie" restoration, particularlly used loosely to make a profit or minimize a loss. This is never more evident that when one attends an auction. Know what your buying/selling, don't be taken or take someone by misrepresentation of words, but this becomes an ethical dilemma that will never be solved.
I bought an undriveable 74 Challenger to "restore" . In my case the car had plenty of rust in the rear quarters and deck lid of the car, with an uninstalled rebuilt 76 360 engine ready to put in. How did i "restore" it.
Simple: first i chemically stripped the car to bare metal. Bought patch kits for the rear quarters, and made a couple of patches from scratch for the rear trunk strip, and sail area. Welded them in and then began the tedious process of spraying on the epoxy primer and blocking it....then put on 2 coats of 2K primer and blocked it twice. I then sprayed the engine compartment with plum crazy and the door jams and the underside of the trunk and hood and sprayed all of that with clearcoat. Installed the engine and got the car driveable.
Then brought the car to a professional painter who put on the color (FC7 Plum Crazy) and did a little cut and buffing.
Took out the dash and rattle can painted all of the metal surfaces (black) and then put on a dash cap and reinstalled the dash and all of the wiring harnesses. Tested all of the gauges and cleaned the up and painted the plastic surrounds for the gauges.
.
Then had a glass shop install the front windshield and the rear window.
I then installed a new headliner...this was the toughest of everything...wife helped. I then put in a new carpet, and a console... The seats had been reupholstered by the previous owner so put them in and test drove the car. Found that the automatic transmission (904) would slip badly in high gear... so i bit the bullet...did a lot of reading and took out the automatic and overhauled it myself in my garage. Had to buy a slide hammer to remove the pump, a couple of GOOD snap ring pliers and had to make a spring compressor to take apart the front clutch pack. Yes, i made that tool myself... All told spent about $200 on parts and tools and it works great now. Im real proud of myself for that rebuild and saving myself about $800.
After a set of new tires and front end alignment, i have been driving it mainly on the weekends to car cruises and a couple of car shows...won a trophy for best 25 out of about 250 cars at the show.
So, only work i didn't do myself was the final paint job, glass installation, and front end alignment. Other than that i did all of the work myself. Call it what you will...
Here are some pics
Quote from: HEMICUDA on February 06, 2018, 11:29:58 PM
So I ask, what exactly constitutes a "restoration"?
That's easy. Back to the way it was.
Anything else is modified.
Do I want a 'restored' car?...Nope
Modify mine to take advantage of technology, assembly techniques, paint, etc...
Just my :alan2cents:
Car restorations or any other type of restorations is what ever that particular person considers it and is willing to accept and like.
Never-the-less, there has to be some kind of common reference that is acceptable to the majority in those hobbies.