Hi All -
I recently purchased a totally restored, very cool 1970 Challenger SE 440. Only problem is it doesn't run very well. Long story short when it gets hot it starts to run rough and wants to stall. After it sits for a few minutes you can't start it at all. We took the air cleaner off and carb isn't getting fuel. Long story short is we said Vapor lock. Did some research, bought a vapor / fuel separator and installed it (was OEM on the 440). We also moved the fuel line away from the block. So, it's a bit better but not going to fly. Still rough and choking. I've heard fuel pump (it should be brand new), I've heard putting a heat shield spacer under the carb (boiling in the carb versus in the sump of the fuel pump), ... Any ideas on what to try next? We can go with an electric pump but someone went to a lot of work to make the car very original and hate to tear that up. But. Like to drive it! Appreciate your thoughts.
I will bet the fuel pump pushrod is work down & not cycling the fuel pump fully , did you check it yet ?
Thanks. We will check to see if its worn but this car is brand spanking new (literally everything). I bet it doesn't have a 100 miles on it. It could be the wrong pump (which I doubt) or maybe has a misalignment, so we will check. I also plan to go through the fuel lines carefully as anything new could have crud in them to foul the line. As quickly as it starts wanting to stall, and won't start after sitting, it's got to be a problem I can figure out (ones that happen just once in awhile are usually a lot harder). Any ideas or help is definately appreciated.
1) Fuel pump pushrod worn down, have to measure it.
2) Faulty fuel pump, new doesn't guarantee good these days.
3) Obstruction in line or sender sock.
I'm thinking the filter could possibly be the culprit? Or maybe the rubber lines connected to it?
If your problem is vapor lock, I would put a spacer under the carburetor. If it is made of wood, or something that won't transfer the heat from the intake manifold to the carb, that will solve the problem. Just a little 1/2 inch spacer is fine.
I have seen many engines completely rebuilt but the fuel pump pushrod was never removed or checked during the entire process , still my #1 bet
I agree.
Appreciate the help.
1) I will check the fuel pump this weekend. Just looked under the hood today and it looks like the right pump (though I think they make a "special" 440 pump, so not sure it's that one). We will look at the pushrod first thing. Then look for obstructions in the fuel line/ filter.
2) I did find a company named "Cool Car" that makes a thermal insulator for the carb to seat on. The problem "seems" temperature related. We have the carb fuel line far away from the block, and the vapor/ fuel separator installed. It's better but not great.
Coolcarb makes a good product & really keeps the carb cooler
Ahhhh .... Mr Chryco Psycho. You are looking pretty good so far! The latest on my fuel issue: From the majority of your comments we focused on the Fuel Pump. Took the inlet side off and had a manual hand pump into a bottle. No problem pulling fuel from the tank. So put a pressure gauge between the outlet of the pump and inlet to the carb. NO pressure at all (that we could measure). So we thought Fuel Pump bad. We ordered another one, took the old pump out and looked at the cam for the pushrod (like some of you mentioned). The cam has no strength to push on the spring of the pushrod at all. When you crank the engine over it has nothing. So, Mr Chryco Psycho said he thinks the cam is worn and it does look like the cam is the real issue. We don't know yet if its just worn, or if that bolt is loose and so the fuel pump cam has no rigid strength. Next step is to take the front of the engine off so we can see it (hopefully it's either an easy replace, or tighten the one we have).
Any new thoughts appreciated.
Electric fuel pump might be an option if the rest of the cam is OK?
If it's a bad lobe, you could replace it with the cam of your choice. :alan2cents:
There's a plug you remove and the pushrod drops out. Take a photo of the pushrod and post it. Relatively low pressure pumping the fuel pump so I doubt your cam lobe is damaged. No need to pull the front of the engine off. Just pull out that fuel pump pushrod. Here's a photo of what it is supposed to look like.
http://store.440source.com/Fuel-Pump-Pushrod-New/productinfo/200-1027/
Runcharger - Not understanding what you are saying (my fault). We think the fuel pump is fine (including the pushrod attached to it). What we think it that the cam inside the block is not rigid enough (for some reason) to open the valves in the fuel pump via the fuel pump pushrod.
Are you saying there is a way to get that cam out (or inspect it) without opening the front of the block up?
My understanding is that cam is held in place with a bolt that you can't access without the front plate of the motor off.
We can't get back to it until tomorrow so there is some time to think about this. We don't want to open more cans of worms than we need to but not sure how that cam can be accessed without getting to that bolt.
Sorry if these comments don't make sense, we are learning as we go here.
The pushrod rides directly on the camshaft
If the pushrod itself is worn significantly. Then it will not properly actuate the fuel pump lever. The rod will still follow the cam lobe but overall push, retract, push, retract movement will be reduced. Rod must be proper full length to move pump lever fully.
Wow this is all over the place. There is a pushrod that rides on the camshaft and pushes the lever on the fuel pump. This pushrod wears. This is what Chryco is talking about. NOT the camshaft or anything else. Look at the video link below. About 9 minutes in you can see exactly what he is talking about....
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=440+fuel+pump+pushrod+removal&view=detail&mid=F5E708A02BAB509389BBF5E708A02BAB509389BB&FORM=VIRE
You have to remove the pipe plug below the fuel pump & Slide the pushrod out , there is a reduced diameter on each end of the pushrod they should be the same length
Here is a picture of the rod
Here is a test. If you can remove the fuel pump from the block and re-install it again easily, your push rod is worn. I've been down that road. I bought a new push rod, and found the one that I was using was 1/8" shorter. No problems after that.
My issue was the fuel pressure was fine at start up. After everything got warm, fuel pressure would tank if I floored it. By tank, I mean I was looking at almost zero PSI, until I let off the gas. As a side note, I installed an after market fuel pressure gauge inside my car at that point just to see what was happening and when.
How would a worn fuel pump push rod work fine when cold but not when hot? :dunno:
As MFK states, the engine is cold so you let it idle and drive it gently, the fuel bowls are filled up with this scenario. Then the engine is hot and you get on it a bit or even just rev it a bit, that uses more fuel and drains the carb fuel bowls.
I'm not saying the camshaft couldn't be flat, it's much more likely the rod is worn and it's so easy to check it without evasive surgery.
That's it for me though. Feel free to tear down the engine or whatever you wish to do.
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on February 12, 2020, 02:44:58 PM
As MFK states, the engine is cold so you let it idle and drive it gently, the fuel bowls are filled up with this scenario. Then the engine is hot and you get on it a bit or even just rev it a bit, that uses more fuel and drains the carb fuel bowls.
I'm not saying the camshaft couldn't be flat, it's much more likely the rod is worn and it's so easy to check it without evasive surgery.
That's it for me though. Feel free to tear down the engine or whatever you wish to do.
Ah..that makes sense.
Well, I really appreciate all your comments, and thanks to the pictures and video, I get it. I actually had started watching that same video but didn't watch it all the way through.
We will take out that freeze plug tomorrow and pull the old push rod. I will post a picture. If we order a new one is there any adjustment we need to do, or is it good to go as is?
The scenario that MEK Dangerous describes is exactly like mine. It was fine when we started the car but as it warmed up, and especially when I juiced it, it lost fuel. We thought it was heat related, thus got on the vapor lock trail.
I definitely don't want to open anything I don't have to.
So, will let you know tomorrow. Again, I really appreciate the help. Learning.
I would coat the pushrod with grease so it will stay up out of the way as you install the fuel pump nothing else is needed
Well, we got back to it today. Thanks to all of you (including pictures and videos) we sort of knew what we were doing. Took the freeze plug out under the fuel pump (which was already out). And. The push rod did not come out! Would not come out. Even after some serious pulling. We took the distributor out so we could see the cam side of the rod better. We bought a borescope so we could see in there. The "top" of the push rod was flat as a nail and mushroomed out with scoring across the end. Looked baddd. We then spent the next hour or two fighting to get it out. Just did not want to budge.
We won. It's even more mangled by us getting it out (or I would post a picture). Thanks to Runcharger, I ordered a replacement from 440.com. Guy said they are the same length, ect.. and told me its a fit. Looks like it on the website.
So Chyrco, its looks like you were right from day 1 AND I told you this is a rotissorie car. When we looked at the gears we could see they look brand new. I'm thinking like you said they rebuilt this motor and just didn't put a new $13 push rod in.
Should have the part in a day or so, will put it in and update. But, we have the culprit. Appreciate the help and hopefully finish this tread (successfully) next update.
And Neil wins another round of "Guess my Problem". You save everyone around here. You are a Mopar Hero!! This site is lucky to have you here. I learn so much just by following along. Thanks
You know this But believe it or not I have seen this before , a customer had a Charger with the same issue , he lived with the same problem for a few years , took it to a number of "mechanics" finally I talked to him at a car show about the issue & he had me look at it , in minutes I had the problem solved as I had brought a new pushrod with me . I have never seen one as bad as yours tho , usually they wear down but still are able to slide out .
Anyway I am glad you have found the issue & are well on the way to fixing it :bigthumb:
1 suggestion is Make Sure you are using SJ or Gibbs or Penn high Zinc oil otherwise you can lose this pushrod or even the cam itself !
We don't have the new push rod yet but this is the best (of bad) pictures we got from the boroscope yesterday. Just hard to get a good picture but you can see the top of the pushrod (cam side) is scared up.
Ackh: If that is the cam lobe you were right, it is fried as well.
Check for filings in the oil and oil filter. :alan2cents:
Well, mixed results folks. Everyone on this forum has helped a lot and it's appreciated. Thanks to all of you once we got the pushrod from 440.com we knew what to do. We checked the cam lobe, looked like new, no problem. Just lubed the pushrod, put it in. Put the distributor back on and, as someone else mentioned, had to play a bit to get our new fuel pump in with a pushrod that didn't look like a crayon. Reconnected all the fuel lines and put a pressure gauge back in line with the carb. Drained the oil and let it drain through a magnet. No metal we could see. New filter, oil and zinc additive.
Started her up, started easy. Pressure was very strong (maybe a bit too much). Anyway, fuel pressure issue solved!
Took her for a drive and just okay. Runs pretty well but not much of a punch for a 440. Got back, let it sit for 10 minutes and restarted. Ran rough and died after a few minutes. We then spent 2 or 3 hours playing with the Edelbrock carb. Just couldn't seem to get it dialed in. Overall about 12 hrs yesterday on it.
It's better, and the original problem is fixed but not a reliable ride yet.
Soooo.... next step. Considering a much better carb (we know it would be better but would that be the end of it) or an EFI.
My heart wants a new carb as I'd like this to be as original (with a carb) as possible, my head says go EFI and long term it will be more drivable.
I know the thoughts will be mixed but the forum has been great so far, what do you think? My car is NOT an investment, its for driving and having fun (if that helps). I don't need a show piece, just driving.
Thanks to all.
PS... If you can suggest something other than what I've said let's hear it.
Heat soak with the blended fuel available nowadays is a real issue. If you do not have a phenolic spacer now I suggest trying that first to see if you get improvements from it.
Only you can make the decision of carb v/s EFI. Think about what you want out of it along with it's intended usage. If driven regularly and you can dial in a carb. Then it can remain carb. If it will sit for extended durations in between drives. Then carb will become an issue and EFI should be a consideration.
Keep it a clean setup with throttle body and factory cleaner AND pump in tank. Most will never know it is not a carb.
But you will.
EFI will require updated alt. Updated wiring in bulkhead area along with shunting Amp guage.
Be prepared for more than initially expected.
I am adding EFI to mine just for the Efficiency. Get in turn key and go.
Just curious. Have you checked your timing yet, especially since you R & R'd the distributor? I'd verify that is set correctly before you start shopping for a new carb or EFI just to make sure. Not sure what cam or modifications to the engine you have, but you should be at about 36 degrees total advance. Depending on engine mods you could have up to 18 degrees at idle. The 10 degrees recommended in 1970 doesn't really seem to work as well with today's fuels, especially if you have an aftermarket cam. You can always hook up a vacuum gauge to the carb while you turn the distributor and set it where you have the max vacuum at idle. The vacuum canister on the distributor may have to be adjusted to obtain 36 degrees at higher RPM. Do a search and there are a few threads on how to set the timing correctly. Good luck.
How much fuel psi? Are you running a fuel pressure regulator? Eddy's don't like much over 6 psi. You may have too much pressure now. :alan2cents:
this is the case for sure , he was peaking at 8 psi with the mech pump & I am sure it flooded out when it stalled
Again, thanks to all.
We put in a fuel regulator today (thought the same thing about too much fuel now - first not enough, now too much). Anyway, backed it down to 4psi. Took it for a spin and it had a lot more punch to it. Just flooding out after we fixed the other issues I think. I need to do a better job of matching things as a system versus parts and pieces. But ...still doesn't run too well. Died on me on my drive, we worked with the idle and mixture a bit and hoping it's drivable at this point.
We will check the distributor timing, that's a good idea. We did take it out and put it back in to see the top of the fuel pump push rod. You mentioned 1970 timing but the motor isn't original and not sure when/ where it came from so we'd need to work with it.
I like your idea of maximum vacuum at idle. Will check threads for some help with that.
Also plan on a phenolic spacer under the carb if we change it out (not thinking that's a major issue at this point).
I'm doing a wait and hold on a new carb versus EFI. It feels like we are shooting in the dark to make the EFI change. Not major surgery but would start to modify a car that was just put back in original (roughly) condition. My buddy is claiming if we "just" got a new carb all would be good. I did get a carb recommendation from Chryco of a ProForm 850 for it if I decide to go that way. A new carb would be easier to try and tear up the car less but it could be wasted money/ time.
My plan is to drive it for a week or so (assuming I can) and just a feel for where it is after checking timing and a few other things.
Will keep you posted but keep the ideas coming. I know it's hard to say from a message board what issues could be, and if you saw it you'd have a better idea.
Did you check your needles and seats? If you are running crappy ethanol the needle may have dried out and not be seating.