Guys, this is the age-old idiot question, because...I know...not enough information. So here's why I ask before I can provide that...I'm invited to view (and purchase) three items from a guy that is into Ford GT's that bought into some old mopars when they were cheap. He's owned these for 20 plus years. I am to go to his shop, containing 7 Ford GT's (his primary passion) and dig back to a buried treasure.
1. A 65,000 mile Challenger TA, lime green, louvered 4 speed survivor, all original, that he parked 7 years ago and buried. Yes, with fuel in it. No rust, previous quarter patches that he claims are nice. Both fender tags are on it. "has never looked for build sheet, never cared". Interior nice other than driver seat coming unstitched as is typical, black interior, standard instrument cluster. He claims nearly everything is original, carbs, intake, air cleaner and all. He says he's never looked at the engine stampings for numbers matching verification, again stating he never cared.
2. A 68 426 Hemi Road Runner, previous "high end" restoration, 4 speed, bronze, zero rust and "very nice". Number's matching with build sheet and fender tag. Also parked 7 years ago with fuel left in it. "Tons of hemi OEM parts go with it"
3. A 68 Date coded 426 Hemi Warranty Engine "complete". No stampings on vin pad. No further info.
I have little knowledge on B bodies other than a Hemi car is a J code? Nor do I have a clue on it's value, but he want's all mopar stuff to go on a "package sale".
Can I get some feedback on what all of this might be worth? Also, if any Road Runner guru's/owners are on here, can you chime in and help me?
I'm headed there Wednesday morning (west central Illinois) to view these and can post pics afterwards.
$200K +/- 20% :bigmoney:
it all depends on the details (don't know what anything is selling for due to Covid-19, asking prices have not fallen)
FJ5 or FJ6? T/A ~$75K white interior FJ6 4-speed louver is pretty high on the pecking order
turbine bronze HEMI RR ~$100K among the cheapest HEMI cars available, coupe or hardtop?
complete '68 HEMI ~$25K VINs were stamped by the oil pressure sending unit
Black interior on the TA. Not sure if it's FJ5 or 6, but definitely 4 speed and louvered. When I met this guy, he was showing a very high dollar Ford GT that even attracted me to it. While viewing it, he noticed my e-bodies T shirt and said "you into e-bodies are ya?" And the rest is history. More Wednesday.
Hard to say. Depends on condition and originality. I'm more cautious. $70k +$70K + $20k.
For a package deal, I would say around $160k +/- 20%
To get top dollar, they have to be sold separately. Package deal means better price. All original and patch repair normally are not the same thing, so with the T/A I would not be as high as most would think. The 68 Hemi's did not come with a VIN pad so people might think it's a Warranty block, but it will need the warranty tag to prove it. Like 6bblgt said, look up on the top of the bellhousing area for the VIN to be hand stamped.
What I think it's worth as a package deal without seeing photos. About $125k. If he sells them all separately and he would get more. But if I buying it all, I need to have some meat on the bone.
I agree, I also find non-Mopar nuts generally have cars that are not quite as correct or high quality as Mopar only guys. Not always but quite often.
Quote from: Cuda Cody on July 13, 2020, 06:42:27 AM
What I think it's worth as a package deal without seeing photos. About $125k. If he sells them all separately and he would get more. But if I buying it all, I need to have some meat on the bone.
I agree, without pictures it's a crap shoot....Dan's $200K would be top dollar I think (cleaned up, running properly, sold separately) I think Cody is much closer to the current value as is package price.
Will let those in the know chime in with the $$$ quantity. I will reiterate the "meat on the bone" comment. With current Covid-19 issues globally. You could potentially be sitting on this investment for a good duration.
Loan with compounding interest? Then every day becomes a loss. Not asking just putting it out as a statement.
I think he could get a cool couple o' million...
...by selling off all the silly GT's... :)
If that's his starting figure I think you better go look at them, have funds available and if they're good make an offer. It sounds like he doesn't have the values based on tv auctions and is more in tune with actually selling all 3 at once.
If the Runner is good at all you should be able to pull $70k out of it quickly and if the engine is complete carbs to distributor to pan and manifolds it would sell pretty quick as well. The extra Hemi stuff is what adds value, if it's just a longblock then not so much.
Any idea what colour the Runner is and if it is a coupe?
The coupe has flip out rear side windows as opposed to roll down windows.
"A 68 426 Hemi Road Runner ... tons of hemi OEM parts go with it"
To me this seems to be the unknown variable that can really influence the package's value ... this unknown wild-card can make a huge difference money wise depending on what's there. :alan2cents:
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on July 13, 2020, 12:43:13 PM
The coupe has flip out rear side windows as opposed to roll down windows.
...and a big "B" pillar separating the door glass and quarter glass. :alan2cents:
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on July 13, 2020, 12:34:44 PM
Any idea what colour the Runner is and if it is a coupe?
He said "bronze" which would be Turbine Bronze.
That's a copper, light brown metallic, med gold, etc color... not on the upper half of desirable colors.
Also, with 1968's the build sheet is important. It's the only thing that ties the fender tag to the body. '68 fender tags don't have vin's on them. One of the reasons 68's don't bring as much as 69 Road Runners do.
Most to Least desirable ($$$) Road Runners (68-70) if all equal:
70 -most
69
68 -least
Some of this may be more argumentative:
71 Hemi RR bring more than these because of low build numbers
71 six pack RR's are less than 70 and 69 1/2
71 383 RR's are less than 68's, but close. 71 tend to have more desirable colors and options that make them more unequal option-wise.
I missed the bronze thing, yes not my favorite colour especially with 15 inch wheels and dogdishes.
Quote from: 7E-Bodies on July 13, 2020, 10:39:03 AM
@anlauto (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/anlauto_19) and Cody's price is exactly where the seller is starting. I won't lie, I'm not into B bodies. Never owned one. Nor do I need or particularly want a hemi car. I'm absolutely foaming at the idea of a TA. Especially in that color and a 4 speed. My hope was to sell all things hemi related and make the TA end up way cheaper. Or even negate its price completely. For instance if a hemi RR 4 speed would net me a quick 80, then the spare hemi another 25, I'd be getting a "survivor" TA for 20, minus any amount I could lower him to. But from what I'm seeing a 68 Hemi Road Runner just doesn't turn the coin the a hemi E would. He does however claim the RR is very nice, but don't they all? It's a gamble. It always is.
Don't get too exited, it can impair judgement and good sense.
You need to look at the cars and verify their bones. Don't assume anything he says is correct. Not that's he's lying, he may just not know. Or was mislead when he bought them.
25 or even 30 years ago people were faking fender tags, build-sheets, engine stamps.
Whatever you can't see, you need to factor is bad or some damage.
Isn't there an Hemi Orange 1 owner T/A 4spd repaint, original interior, never rust work, motor-been-into car that is struggling at $60K ??? That one is running, driving, AND has buildsheet.
I'm seeing $45K, $65K, and $15K. Priced individually. 2 cars that have not been driven or ran in 7 years. If running add $5-10K to each car.
Gotta ask yourself:
What makes you sure they are not running for a reason?
If the 68 has such a great restoration, why would it have tons of OEM Hemi parts not installed on it?
NOW, add your volume discount.
Quote from: 7E-Bodies on July 13, 2020, 04:33:38 PM
@autoxcuda (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/autoxcuda_120) all excellent points. I like how you break up the prices. However, the hemi parts are simply stuff he's obtained over the years. Not that any are missing from the 68. It's said to be complete.
I wasn't thinking in terms of missing. I was thinking in terms of upgrading. You generally don't buy worse parts for a done car. It just brings to question that car might not be as "perfect" as led to think. If you see certain parts in the parts-stash go back and look at those same parts on the car.
The level of restoration quality and expectations has increased a lot in the past 30 years. What was a primo restoration 30 years ago is not now. Don't forget all those parts installed during restoration are 30 years old.... gaskets, door seals, trunk seals, floor mats, rubber bumpers.
Most resto parts aren't as good as OEM. Especially rubber, foam, plastic. I've uncovered cars with 30 year resto work.... some stuff crumbles in your hands. Hard to keep a car away from air. Can protect from rain, snow, wind, temperature somewhat... But air is tough one.
No air grabber fresh air hood in 68 Hemi's either.
(https://photos.classiccars.com/cc-temp/listing/99/6042/8397672-1968-plymouth-road-runner-std.jpg)
:popcorn:
When are you going to look at these cars?
Quote from: 7E-Bodies on July 14, 2020, 04:46:34 AM
@cuda hunter (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/cuda-hunter_176) Was supposed to be Wednesday morning, but now Thursday morning due to a good friend not being able to do Wednesday. He's a valued second set of eyes.
Have him take a tons of pictures to cover every square inch of the car. Make sure to have the flash on for the interior, engine, trunk, and undercarriage. You should walk away with around 100 pictures minimum for those 3 items.
A small point and shoot camera takes better quality than a phone.
Then you can look at the pics at home on bigger computer screen . You WILL see things you didn't see in person. Guaranteed.
You also take a bunch of pictures in addition to your friend. Between the two of you, less things will be missed. But usually you are talking with the owner and getting the verbal information. Many times too distracted and miss things.
Take pics of all the parts. Rather than writing down inventory, pictures are faster. Inventory at home. Allows more time on cars.
A selfie stick works good for pictures of the undercarriage, underdash, under-seat (looking for buildsheet), engine and trans numbers, etc. Practice on your car at home first.
I'm excited to see the photos. :)
Very cool there is still some collections coming out. Cant wait to se them
Got a ton of pics (and concerns) after crawling through the TA. Tried to upload pics yesterday but it wasn't working. Cody said there were issues he was working on that should alleviate it. I'll try and get some uploaded again this evening.
Here's a couple test uploads for now...
Well Kevin. That's a good looking car! I'm not loving the mud flaps though :huh:
4-speed right? I love the louvers. Is that damage on the right rear quarter? Can't tell on my phone.
Tell us about your concerns with the car?
whats with the drivers side exhaust tip
I'm excited to see more photos, but my original target price guess is dropping fast....
No signs of a build sheet by feeling above glove box insert, or running my borescope under all the seats and seat backs, but he's agreed to let me pull the seats when I head back.
From what I can see, I would guess that is not a real TA block and the VIN's on both the engine and trans have been "re-stamped". Not saying it's a for sure a fake engine and trans stamp, but from what I am seeing it would make me double check things really well before making any offers.
The, if someone would fake the engine and trans stamp... what else would they be willing to fake?
Cody, we're thinking exactly alike. Gonna do another in-depth scan through that engine and transmission when I get it on his lift. I'll also have way better pics then. If I decide against the deal, I'll share his contact info with anyone that might still be interested.
I keep trying to upload pics and it just locks up... :verymad: :pullinghair:
The T/A appears to be far from a survivor as first thought :alan2cents:
I can post text, but if I attach even one pic, it locks up...going to try with other devices...
The photos are to large. Our site will re-size them, but only to a point. email them to me if you want and I can re-size them (if you don't know how.)
Quote from: 7E-Bodies on July 17, 2020, 03:36:53 PM
I keep trying to upload pics and it just locks up... :verymad: :pullinghair:
older restoration/fix up. In disrepair.
The drivers door pull handle is broken off. Easy fix, but gives you an idea of condition and care this owner took to the car. The whole cars look repainted. Full but poor repaints can be considered "covered up". You need to check if any major sections of the body have been spliced in.
With the fake stamps, you REALLY need to look at this with a fine tooth comb. That raised way more flags than just not original motor and trans.
Isn't there a "T/A" cast on the block. I'd want to open up one valve cover and look for offset rockers. OR stick your boroscope down the breather hole.
At this point I think the owner has a:
misconception of reality on these vehicles
Hmm: So what's the story on the mint HemiRunner and all the rare Hemi parts?
formerly in WI - louvers added - :unbelievable:
Quote from: 6bblgt on July 17, 2020, 09:53:07 PM
formerly in WI - louvers added - :unbelievable:
In WI 20-25 years ago?
Quote from: 6bblgt on July 17, 2020, 10:23:47 PM
Quote from: autoxcuda on July 17, 2020, 10:15:15 PM
Quote from: 6bblgt on July 17, 2020, 09:53:07 PM
formerly in WI - louvers added - :unbelievable:
In WI 20-25 years ago?
at least 15 years ago
I'm just trying to corroborate the seller's story of the cars history.
When histories don't match, just another head scratcher :thinking:
Quote from: autoxcuda on July 17, 2020, 11:06:52 PM
Quote from: 6bblgt on July 17, 2020, 10:23:47 PM
Quote from: autoxcuda on July 17, 2020, 10:15:15 PM
Quote from: 6bblgt on July 17, 2020, 09:53:07 PM
formerly in WI - louvers added - :unbelievable:
In WI 20-25 years ago?
at least 15 years ago
I'm just trying to corroborate the seller's story of the cars history.
When histories don't match, just another head scratcher :thinking:
could be same owner :dunno: maybe he moved a little south
A few more...
More sharing even though interest has waned due to a seemingly falsified engine stamping at some time in the past.
How long ago was it restored ? Nothing about that paint looks original to me :dunno:
The tops of the fenders appear to have solvent popping issues. :alan2cents:
I"m sure there are interested parties on the site. Please investigate further.
That T/A casting will say it all. Maybe you will just help educate the current owner as to what he really has.
And what the true value of the car may actually be.
still curious about the hemi stuff....
I'd say then that this think is counterfeit.
There are plenty of T/A and AAR's without original motors, trans, and buildsheets.
If you are waiting for a sublime 4spd T/A all numbers matching with buildsheet AND unrestored so you can afford the buy in price...
You might be waiting a long time.
There you go ... non TA 340 block. With the info from MMC Detroit's website I noticed that the VIN pad has a "double-bevel" which might indicate that it was re-milled removing the original VIN stampings to facilitate a "restamping" of the VIN. So it doesn't have it's original engine and the block that is in there was probably "restamped" ... gives you some negotiating leverage on the price. Who knows ... the original block could be out there just waiting to be found. I think it's still worth looking into ... sheet metal looks to be in great shape ... and it's a great color combination with some cool options. Note that the only car with it's own emoji on the E-Bodies website is ... a Sublime TA ... that's a sign that you should keep considering it!! :wrenching:
Quote from: 7E-Bodies on July 18, 2020, 08:03:41 AM
@RzeroB (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/rzerob_126) as admitted early on, I'm on a serious learning curve with TAs. After 9 ebodies, I've never had much exposure to TAs. Man have I done some learning now though. I credit guys like you, Cody and several others and I deeply appreciate it. I didn't have that casting number before I went to see it, but I think the left front stamping right under the head on the upper front of the block says it pretty well also. No lower case "s" for special/TA. I'm invited to a second viewing of it , and this time on a 4 post lift. Part of me says run. The other says just go get some really good block/trans, and undercarriage pics for the group. Maybe someone here would still want it. It's about a 60 mile round trip, but I enjoy the investigation. I'm too much of a purist, unless he made it really tempting, I'm not that interested in buying it now.
Most the things you are looking for apply to all Ebodies. All Mopars for that matter. Just other one will have different number, code, etc to look for.
You have yet to really dive into verifying the body. Need to take the cowl screen off and look/feel around the stamping for weld slag join marks. People weld in numbers there.
Then trace the sheet metal stamping front to rear, spot weld joint line to spot weld joint line. To see if floors replaced, car back-halfed, frame rails replaced, torque boxes rear (and front with T/A-AAR?) have factory looking welds...
You're not just checking this car for purchase now... but you're helping yourself purchase others in the future. Knowledge and familiarity learned now will help you spot and react to good purchases down the road.
That car was kind of what I expect from a Non-Mopar guys collection. Too bad, I wouldn't be happy with it as is and working it over would end up costing too much. I'm sure the Hemi Road Runner is similiar condition. Not sure I'd go back for a second look.
Another TA question...Did these cars come with special front fenders, or am I thinking Hemi E bodies?
Quote from: 7E-Bodies on July 18, 2020, 07:56:52 PM
Another TA question...Did these cars come with special front fenders, or am I thinking Hemi E bodies?
some T/A - AAR cars received rolled HEMI FENDERs but it wasn't consistent or required
on the original "TRANS AM" drawing board was a 15x8" wheel & H60-15 tires on all 4-corners - this would've required a "TRANS AM" fender :woohoo:
:brainiac: but some bean counter killed the idea before production :crying:
Quote from: 6bblgt on July 18, 2020, 08:54:22 PM
Quote from: 7E-Bodies on July 18, 2020, 07:56:52 PM
Another TA question...Did these cars come with special front fenders, or am I thinking Hemi E bodies?
some T/A - AAR cars received rolled HEMI FENDERs but it wasn't consistent or required
on the original "TRANS AM" drawing board was a 15x8" wheel & H60-15 tires on all 4-corners - this would've required a "TRANS AM" fender :woohoo:
:brainiac: but some bean counter killed the idea before production :crying:
It definitely wasn't consistent, I have a rolled lip on the Passenger side and not the Drivers side and they are both the original fenders for sure because I removed them in the early 80's and snapped almost all the fender studs in the process. :looney: