E-Bodies.org Cuda Challenger Forum

What is the real correct E-Body '70 / '71 Hemi Orange engine color shade?  I know of several respected restoration guys who sell what is labelled "correct" 1969 to 1971 street Hemi Orange paint, but I have very high standard and want to make sure I have a mix that is as perfect as it can be.  I want the factory correct color in today's professional high quality two part durable paint.  That way my engines will look good for a long time.  Yes, that means my engines are going to be much better then the original factory, but I am okay with that.  I like may cars to look like everyone at the factory cared about what they were doing the day they built my car.

I've come to the conclusion that the main reason the original factory engine paint did not look good for very long is because the first time heat is applied to a lacquer (a thermoplastic paint) it will start to dull the sheen.  So as soon as the engine was started on a brand new Cuda or Challenger the original paint on our beloved E-Body engines would start to dull.  That's the well known shortcomings of a thermoplastic paint.  So my goal is to mix the correct factory color in a Thermoset (modern 2 part paint) that is easy to apply.

I've heard rumors that the engine paint and air cleaner lid paint are a different shade of Hemi Orange?  Step 1 for me was to find a good original Hemi Orange air cleaner lid and valve cover sample that I could compare and match. I found an original valve cover that was painted over many years ago and the top layer of paint protected the Hemi Orange paint underneath it.  I used my thumbnail and carefully scraped off the top layer of paint to reveal a perfectly preserved Hemi Orange paint sample under it.  It cost me a good portion of my fingernail, but it will grow back.  :D   I also found an original Hemi Orange air cleaner lid.  At first glance they look like different colors, but with what I know about Thermoplastic paints it's not uncommon for the same paint to look different if it was exposed to different heat temperatures.  I carefully cleaned a section on the lid and valve cover.  After the paint was polished back to like new it appears the lid and valve cover are a perfect match.  I am now confident and comfortable using the same Hemi Orange paint on engines and air cleaner lids.

I spent most of the day at my local automotive paint store custom mixing a perfectly matched batch of Hemi Orange paint so now I have a modern 2 part (paint + hardener) mix that I feel is as close as possible to being perfectly correct.  Here's where I need some help.  I want to test my new paint on an engine.  If you have a engine you would like me to paint I am offering to paint it for free (I'll cover the cost of the paint and do the work) so I can test out my new color and technique. The only catch is you have to bring the Mopar engine (prefer 70 or 71) to me here in beautiful Brush Prairie, WA (about 15 miles from Portland, OR).  I'm only offering to do one engine so once I find one to paint I will not be painting any others (for money or for free).  You also have to let me photograph the engine before, during and after the painting process.  I will also want to check in with you and see the engine after you have it in the car and put some miles on it.

 :drinkingbud:

Is this a urethane based paint with a clear ?

If I get another "driver" motor for the T/A soon enough I'll let you know. A drive would be good therapy.

Acrylic Enamel with Hardener.

Quote from: Plum_crazy_T/A on August 23, 2017, 10:32:55 PM
Is this a urethane based paint with a clear ?

If I get another "driver" motor for the T/A soon enough I'll let you know. A drive would be good therapy.

Awesome work Cody! If I lived close by, I would jump on this in an instant. Will you sell this paint when you are satisfied with it? I know I want some. What primer(s) will you use?

I hope to be able to share more details in the very near future.  All I can say is if this works out like I hope it will that E-Bodies.org and it's members will benefit a lot from it.   :bigthumb:

Quote from: Tunis on August 23, 2017, 10:52:30 PM
Awesome work Cody! If I lived close by, I would jump on this in an instant. Will you sell this paint when you are satisfied with it? I know I want some. What primer(s) will you use?

This is the formula Roger Gibson uses for his restorations. I noticed it looks different than your motor. My paint supplier at the shop sells paint to Gibson also.  That's how I got it. Like you have seen on old motors they all look a little different. I can't say for sure this is a 100% correct. I do like it and it matches the air cleaner pie tin. It's Sikkens base/clear.

Very nice Shane! :clapping:  That looks really good.

My camera phone messes with the colors a bit.  It's always hard to see exact colors on a computer too.  Having these original samples has been a big help.  I'm doing some spray tests today and will continue to dial the color in.  But like you said, it can look a bit different from one original sample to another.

As with anything made by Chrysler, isn't it possible that more than one shade can be correct? I mean, the guy mixing the paint could have made a slightly different mix every time and of course, more than one person could've been responsible for mixing the paint. Just a thought.

I used Mopar Performance street Hemi orange in rattle cans. Colour seems good to me. Its a lighter orange than Plasticoat street Hemi orange. In person it is not a bright orange. Looks something like the "Header Orange" paint used on some of the newer Challengers. Much, much lighter than Chevy orange.

To me it would make sense that the lid and the block would be different shades of orange as they were obviously not painted at the same plant. But looking at Cody's example they do look the same. :thinking:

Quote from: 750-h2 on August 24, 2017, 09:25:32 AM
To me it would make sense that the lid and the block would be different shades of orange as they were obviously not painted at the same plant. But looking at Cody's example they do look the same. :thinking:

I'm just guessing here. But I would think they were intended to be the same orange.
As Tunis referred to. The paint probably changed in hues from batch to batch and other reasons. Same would apply for air cleaner. It's not like they had a inspector on the assembly line checking engine or air cleaner color match.

@Cuda Cody (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/cuda-cody_1) I'm getting ready to paint my 383 using Ditzler EQE-60626 w/ 25% Ditzler DX-265 Flattening Agent. Should I not be using that formula? It's been around for awhile.  :notsure:

Quote from: 750-h2 on August 24, 2017, 12:21:03 PM
For anyone that is not familiar with Dave's 70 Challenger R/T it received the highest ever score for an OE restoration.

I believe his /6 Valiant exceeded the Challenger's score  :pokeeye:

You talk to 3 different people and you are going to get 3 different answers.  But since you asked me, here's what I think....

Short Answer = The original paint mopar used sucked for engines and it turned a dull sheen as soon as engine was hot.  Today's 2 part paints are far superior and will hold up much better on an engine.  Any auto paint store can mix you up quality 2 part paint in a well known brand so you can shoot the engine with a spray gun.  So by adding flattener to today's quality paints you are trying to mimic the heat damage that is cause to Lacquer and give it a duller look.  I prefer my engines shiny and new looking so I do not add flattener.  But you can add the flattener and it will work really good to make it look dull and more like the original heat soaked Lacquer paint.  The key is to do some test spray outs to get it right.



Detailed Answer = E-Body Mopar engines were originally painted with a Lacquer paint.  Lacquer paint started being used on cars in the 1920's and it slowly started going away in the mid 70's.  Lacquer is a non cross-linked single part paint.  Thus Lacquer is a Thermoplastic paint, or easier to understand terms.... it's soft, not durable, has no hardener, and does not hold up to heat or chemicals.  When used on the outside of a car it take lots of coats and regular polishing to stay looking good.  When used on an engine it looks dull and is horribly affected by the heat.  Single "part" paint (not single "stage" paint, those are two different paints) is also extremely sensitive to chemicals like gasoline.  Gasoline will soften the Lacquer and cause it to loosen up and it will stain or even worse... completely come off.  We've all seen those old cars from the 60's with gas stains running below the fuel filler cap.  That's because it was Lacquer paint.  All the Hemi Orange paint you can buy today in the rattle cans is a single part paint and will not hold up well to heat or gasoline.  Sometime single "part" paint is confused with single "stage" paint.  Single "part" paint is your rattle cans and old lacquers that do not have a hardener.  Single "stage" paint is a modern 2 part paint that has both the paint, hardener and clear mixed in to one.  Then you applied it in one single step or "stage".  It's like base coat / clear coat, but with it all mixed together.

Today we have 2 part paints and they are extremely strong and durable.  2 part paints include your single "stage" and base coat / clear coats.  They are so far superior to the old Lacquer paints that it's hard to put in words.  They are a Thermoset (cross-linked paint), or an easier to understand term.... 2 part paints are chemically bonded so they harden like concrete does.  And we all know once concrete is mixed and dried there is no un-mixing it.  That is the same for today's 2 part paints.  Once you add the hardener it's going to chemically be altered and bond like concrete.  2 part paints are not affect by gasoline so painting your engine with a 2 part paint is the best way to go.  It will hold up extremely well and it handles the heat so much better.  I have thousands of miles on some of my engines that were painted with 2 part paints and they still look new.  The only problem with 2 part paints is you normally have to buy it from a professional paint store and spray it with an automotive paint gun in a paint booth.  You need a good size compressor, and air dryer and a little practice to set up the gun to get it right.  Thus most hobbyist do not use these 2 part paints due to the cost of getting set up to paint.



Solution = This is the first time that I'm aware of that this has been attempted.  You heard it here on E-Bodies.org first.  We are working to provide the correct Hemi Orange paint in a 2 part (paint +hardener) simple and easy to use Rattle Can!  Our first batch of test cans will be here next week and I'm going to start running tests on it.  If it works out the way we plan we will be able to offer to members a correct Hemi Orange paint in a rattle can that will hold up like a professional paint job.  No more need to buy expensive paint guns, airlines with filters and mixing chemicals just to get a professional painted engine.  We plan to sell single cans or complete kits with cleaners, primers, prepping tools and paint.



Here's the cool part...  ALL THE PROFITS WILL GO TO E-BODIES.org!   THAT WAY WE CAN CONTINUE TO PRESERVE AND SHARE MOPAR HISTORY SO FUTURE GENERATIONS WILL HAVE ACCESS TO DETAILED DOCUMENTS, RESOURCES AND AN ARCHIVAL LIBRARY OF RARE PIECES OF INFORMATION.

Quote from: headejm on August 24, 2017, 11:13:26 AM
@Cuda Cody (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/cuda-cody_1) I'm getting ready to paint my 383 using Ditzler EQE-60626 w/ 25% Ditzler DX-265 Flattening Agent. Should I not be using that formula? It's been around for awhile.  :notsure:

Quote from: 6bblgt on August 24, 2017, 01:20:10 PM

Quote from: 750-h2 on August 24, 2017, 12:21:03 PM
For anyone that is not familiar with Dave's 70 Challenger R/T it received the highest ever score for an OE restoration.

I believe his /6 Valiant exceeded the Challenger's score  :pokeeye:

That's right!  It was probably do to the more desirability of the 6 Valiant that it scored better. :rofl:

Here's a perfect example.  This was a guy (Clint Jones) on our Facebook group that shared a photo of his engine after 150 miles.  You can see why I tell people that single part paints (normal rattle can paint) is not a good choice for engine paint.  Here's his comment and photo he posted....

"...My motor is brand new but for some reason the paint never lasted on it. Engine has less than 150 miles on it and looks like crap already"

   :o. He's not lying about that! 

Like Cody. I prefer the high gloss finish also. There is another advantage to high gloss over a flattened finish besides looks. The high gloss has a slick surface that is easier to clean and maintain. When you add flattener it causes a fine texture to the surface. A more likely surface to grab and hold dust, dirt and grim.

Quote from: Cuda Cody on August 24, 2017, 02:05:45 PM

Solution = This is the first time that I'm aware of that this has been attempted.  You heard it here on E-Bodies.org first.  We are working to provide the correct Hemi Orange paint in a 2 part (paint +hardener) simple and easy to use Rattle Can!  Our first batch of test cans will be here next week and I'm going to start running tests on it.  If it works out the way we plan we will be able to offer to members a correct Hemi Orange paint in a rattle can that will hold up like a professional paint job.  No more need to buy expensive paint guns, airlines with filters and mixing chemicals just to get a professional painted engine.  We plan to sell single cans or complete kits with cleaners, primers, prepping tools and paint.

Here's the cool part...  ALL THE PROFITS WILL GO TO E-BODIES.org!   THAT WAY WE CAN CONTINUE TO PRESERVE AND SHARE MOPAR HISTORY SO FUTURE GENERATIONS WILL HAVE ACCESS TO DETAILED DOCUMENTS, RESOURCES AND AN ARCHIVAL LIBRARY OF RARE PIECES OF INFORMATION.

Hmm, I'm interested to see how this paint works out/looks and how it will hold up over time.  I would think it's really hard to beat the look and longevity of an evenly applied spray gun engine paint job.   :alan2cents:

I'm excited that you're trying it, how can i help?   :bigthumb:

The goal is to perfectly match the look and longevity of a professionally applied spray gun, but in the convenience of a rattle can.

One other thing I'm considering doing is providing two sheen options.   A Show Shine finish for maximum gloss and ease of cleaning and a more original Flat finish for high end OEM restorations.

 :woohoo:

Sounds awesome!! Can't wait to see the test sprays, and the comparisons to survivor engine examples.

Thanks for doing this Cody!

Wonder if you could mail the spray bombs across the border without any hassle ?

We can certainly find out what it will take to ship it to Canada.   :yes:  There's got to be one way or another to get it to you.

I'm going to pick up some more original sample 6 pack lids and 340 valve covers from a buddy that has a huge collection of original stuff.  More original samples and more testing next week.  Hope to have an update after that on the exact results and then start doing some full engine painting tests.

Quote from: anlauto on August 25, 2017, 11:28:46 AM
Wonder if you could mail the spray bombs across the border without any hassle ?

Quote from: Cuda Cody on August 25, 2017, 03:51:54 PM
We can certainly find out what it will take to ship it to Canada.   :yes:  There's got to be one way or another to get it to you.

I'm going to pick up some more original sample 6 pack lids and 340 valve covers from a buddy that has a huge collection of original stuff.  More original samples and more testing next week.  Hope to have an update after that on the exact results and then start doing some full engine painting tests.

Quote from: anlauto on August 25, 2017, 11:28:46 AM
Wonder if you could mail the spray bombs across the border without any hassle ?

I think you just mail it as "Automotive restoration supplies"

Do you have any engines coming up soon that will need to be painted?  ;) 

Quote from: anlauto on August 25, 2017, 05:05:01 PM
I think you just mail it as "Automotive restoration supplies"

In a couple of months maybe, but it's always nice to have it on the shelf.....I have an air cleaner lid I could do right now :thinking:

If you need to paint one right now I was going to have you help test the paint.  But if you don't need it for a couple week or even a month I can get it dialed in, perfectly matched and fully tested before I send you some.

Would you prefer the Show Gloss sheen or OEM Satin finish?

Quote from: anlauto on August 25, 2017, 05:13:45 PM
In a couple of months maybe, but it's always nice to have it on the shelf.....I have an air cleaner lid I could do right now :thinking:

OEM....or both.....  :waving:

           @Cuda Cody (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/cuda-cody_1)  put me down for one can of each when you get it dialed in.   :rebelflag" :please: I can paypal.   :unitedstates:

I'll know for sure soon, but I think 1 can is going to come up a little short if you want two full coats.  2 cans should be enough to do a full engine, six pack air cleaner, bellhousing, and inspection cover.  When I paint a 4 speed six pack engine with all the parts I normally use about 19 ounces.  Two of these rattle cans will give you 20 ounces.  So an automatic car without a six pack lid might be able to get by with 1 can.  I'll keep track when I do the tests.

Quote from: headejm on August 25, 2017, 10:14:18 PM
My BB is ready for paint right now. How many cans would it take to do a nice job?  :wave:

Good question and yes, you are 100% correct.  Paint with a hardener added do have a short pot life.  That is why paint + hardener are so much better and stronger compared to normally rattle unhardened paints because there is a chemical reaction.  Shelve life on our cans we think will be about 12 months if stored around 70 degrees.

Normally pot life on a professional mixed paint is about 1 hour to maybe 3 or 4 depending on the brand of paint.  Since our paint + hardener will be completely contained in the rattle can we expect the pot life to be about 3 to 5 days depending on the temperature.  If you are around 60 degrees it will be good upwards to a week, if you are 75 degrees you might be looking at a pot life of 2 to 3 days max.  If you are 85+ degrees I would think maybe 1 day is all you are going to get.  That pot life starts once you activate the hardener to the paint with a button on the bottom of the can.

Once the paint is activated in the can never let is get below 55 degrees.  All isocyanate paints will stop curing if they are allowed under 55 degrees.  This is true for the paint once it's sprayed too.  Never let is get below 55 degrees while it is drying.  Once the paint is cured and hard you it can pretty much handle any temperature.

A good rule of thumb on isocyanate paints (paint + hardener) is for every increase of 15 degrees the Pot Life and Cure Time is cut in half.  For every decrease of 15 degrees the Pot Life and Cure Time is doubled.  Most paints with isocyanate are listed with a pot life tested in a lab at 70 degrees.

Quote from: TX9AAR on August 26, 2017, 06:32:54 AM

@Cuda Cody (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/cuda-cody_1) I do have a question on the paint. I will preface this that I have very limited knowledge on paint, but I thought that the paint and hardener when mixed together have a chemical reaction that requires you to use the product in a certain time frame(pot life),   

Quote from: mopar jack on August 26, 2017, 11:57:29 AM
my point is that I never primed the block just shot it  with a rattle can. I think the lacquer paints tend to self etch and stick to bare metal.

They will go on and cover.  But after time you will see them start to crack and peel in places. They will hold up longer in nice conditions but if it sits outside they will start failing faster. They usually start peeling around edges where gaskets are. Around bolts is another notorious area for failure.  Once they open up moisture starts working its way under the surface. That's when the real peeling begins.

There is no doubt that acrylic enamel paint with hardener is better than rattle can paint. That being said if you have done good prep work on your block, enamel rattle can engine paint will look great and last several years even on a daily driven car. I am stating this from my personal experience.

I'd like to throw something out there and hear your thoughts.  From what I think I've learned here, it's my understanding that engines were originally shot in acrylic lacquer. We went thru this in the Corvette world, The difference between the buffed body and nonbuffed  jams. It got to the point that people were actually spraying flat finishes on the jams. Nonbuffed lacquer is not that dull.  It's a fallacy that you need 20 coats to get a shine out of lacquer.  We did plenty of show finishes back in the day,  and sprayed them pretty much like we spray the 2parts today.  3 coats of color and 3-4 of clear.  color sand and buff and people would think we had 20 coats on.  Are we overthinking this?  You all have seen way more original finishes than we have but those finishes are 40 50 years old.  Heat and time,  that paint will fade probably more so than the finish on the body, and we know how much 40 50 year old paint on the body fades.  How much buffing it takes to bring a shine back. I guess my question is, did they really flatten the finish back than or is what we see today the result of not spending much effort on painting the engine along with the effects of time and abuse.

That would be my guess too.  Time, heat and normal use.  Most likely it was not a flattened finish when they sprayed it.  Probably just normal lacquer paint that once exposed to the first heat of the engine starting looking "not glossy" right from the beginning.

Quote from: Gary on August 27, 2017, 05:41:34 PM
...did they really flatten the finish back than or is what we see today the result of not spending much effort on painting the engine along with the effects of time and abuse.

We have a couple engines getting ready to paint in a week or so.  Would like to do an OEM finish, but don't want the dull look, so I guess maybe I'm trying to talk myself into the glossy look. I guess it will be up to the judges to decide.  We always got dinged for having a too good fit and finish on the vets, but that's what the customer wanted.  Let us know when you get your formula finished ,we will want a pint to compare with what we are using.

here are some 1959 Chevy 6s, 283s & 348s before installation  8) look pretty shiny to me! (including complete coverage of exhaust manifolds)
:alan2cents: I'm sure processes at Chrysler were NOT significantly different

Quote from: 6bblgt on August 27, 2017, 08:55:09 PM
here are some 1959 Chevy 6s, 283s & 348s before installation  8) look pretty shiny to me! (including complete coverage of exhaust manifolds)
:alan2cents: I'm sure processes at Chrysler were NOT significantly different

Hey, that might be my 59 283 there !
Is there a website that has more photos like that ?

There were 40+ pics from the LIFE magazine archives on-line a couple of years ago

not the original site, but found this with a quick search: http://www.xframechevy.com/tarrytown-ny-assembly-plant-1959-chevrolet/

That are some great photos!

@Cuda Cody (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/cuda-cody_1) Put me down for a complete kit to do a Hemi.  :waving:

Quote from: Cuda Cody on August 25, 2017, 03:51:54 PM
We can certainly find out what it will take to ship it to Canada.   :yes:  There's got to be one way or another to get it to you.

I'm going to pick up some more original sample 6 pack lids and 340 valve covers from a buddy that has a huge collection of original stuff.  More original samples and more testing next week.  Hope to have an update after that on the exact results and then start doing some full engine painting tests.

Quote from: anlauto on August 25, 2017, 11:28:46 AM
Wonder if you could mail the spray bombs across the border without any hassle ?

we ship aerosol cans ground usps and ups. double bagged plain box. or a box with ORMD DOT label.

 :)  I think the formula is complete, but I have not found an engine to test it on and that has been the hold up.  I posted on the facebook page asking for anyone local that would like to have their engine painted for free, but it looks like I'll have to wait until I build my next engine to test the paint.  Sorry for the delay.  I want it to be right and be the best product on the market before I start making it for us. 

Maybe I should let someone else test paint their engine?

Quote from: Cuda Cody on October 26, 2017, 08:00:07 AM
:)  I think the formula is complete, but I have not found an engine to test it on and that has been the hold up.  I posted on the facebook page asking for anyone local that would like to have their engine painted for free, but it looks like I'll have to wait until I build my next engine to test the paint.  Sorry for the delay.  I want it to be right and be the best product on the market before I start making it for us. 

Maybe I should let someone else test paint their engine?

@Cuda Cody (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/cuda-cody_1)
Cody, what ever happened with this?