Starting this thread to divert posts from a from other threads. Open to your opinions/thoughts on what you would buy and why from a Cuda or Challenger numbers matching (any engine), versus a non-numbers car (again any engine), versus a gen III Hellcat/392/6.1 engine. What would be your choice, or choices, why and what you think the value of these cars are currently and going in the future?
I'll start - My ultimate car would be a '70 Hemicuda all numbers matching. To me this is the ultimate e-body that has the most value, collectability and wow factor! However for reliability, enjoyment of start anytime and drive anywhere I would pick a '70 Cuda with a Hellcat or 392 Hemi engine. This car has great value right now because people can have the old school look with the new engine reliability. I predict more of these "resto-mods" will show up in a lot of auctions over the next few years because they are hot right now. In future, they may fade in value as most things do.
6 Packs and Hemi's will always have a strong following because of their rareness and power. Resto-modded cars when done right will always have a large fan base too. Quality work is what will hold it's value the best. :alan2cents:
Copied off the other thread.
If I may give my opinion. Both of you make very good points and it would really come down to the type of buyer. Since I have the very car your talking about and even considered doing the swap when the Hellcrate came out. After really thinking it over I think if it's a non matching numbers car the Hellcrate would bring more money at auction. I watch all the auctions and the trend is the restomods are bringing stronger money that originals pretty much across the board. Obviously we are not talking Hemi or 6 pack cars here. Now since mine is a matching number 4 speed car I believe that is not the way to go for me. Not to mention I love playing with 340's!
No one can say what the future holds when all the original stuff has dried up. At some point people just won't drive them anymore because of the rarity. IMO So if they are just basically show cars will the all original shoot past the restomods? Will people be more interested in how they came from the factory and listen to how they sound? Only time will tell.
I have pondered this question to myself. What is the value difference in a 71 true Cuda restomod and a 71 Barracuda cloned with all the Cuda stuff and built identical in every single aspect. Only difference being VIN. I suspect the Cuda will prevail and that's just based on my personal thoughts. If I'm spending big bucks on a one of those cars I want a real Cuda. So if that's the case do you spend all the time and money on a Barracuda? :thinking:
I think as the Baby Boomers age and die off, the value of all original cars will drop.
Gen X gamers will want the restomods they see in Fast and Furious and Grand Theft Auto.
Something they can drive, no desire to tinker or work on a car, it's just for driving.
There are no cars that will fix itself so the Gen X either learn to do it themselves or pay someone to do it. I have been trying to engage my son to work on cars but no interest so far.
I do think restmod has their value and will be more fun IMO. However, I hate to see a rare car get butcher into something else.
Quote from: Cuda Cody on March 22, 2018, 09:34:12 AM
6 Packs and Hemi's will always have a strong following because of their rareness and power. Resto-modded cars when done right will always have a large fan base too. Quality work is what will hold it's value the best. :alan2cents:
I agree with Cody. It's all about the quality of the work done. If it's a survivor...well, that can't be beat. But if its a restoration and the quality is there...it will always have value.
Quote from: 7212Mopar on March 22, 2018, 11:16:19 AM
There are no cars that will fix itself so the Gen X either learn to do it themselves or pay someone to do it. I have been trying to engage my son to work on cars but no interest so far.
Not true, grab a laptop and you have all you need to work on a new car.
No kid wants to "dial in" the timing of an old distributor.
Anything big is "just pay the dealer to replace it"
Quote from: Katfish on March 22, 2018, 11:06:50 AM
I think as the Baby Boomers age and die off, the value of all original cars will drop.
Gen X gamers will want the restomods they see in Fast and Furious and Grand Theft Auto.
Something they can drive, no desire to tinker or work on a car, it's just for driving.
Bingo. The pedigree cars will hold good value but to fewer people. The half-and-half cars will have a long healthy life.
The next generation has their sights on 300z's, RX-7s, Supras, MR2s, etc.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And the computer say bad O2 sensor and set off the engine light. The used once mentality is really bad and people should fix stuff and keeping them longer. Just read an article that we have an enormous plastic trash area in Pacific between CA and Hawaii that is the size of two Texas.
Back on topic. Realistically I will never going to have a HEMI or six pack car. I also like to drive and modify them. My vote would be a restomod with a Hellcat HEMI. The only draw back is that the eshaust does not sound like the older muscle car.
Quote from: 7212Mopar on March 22, 2018, 12:58:15 PM
Back on topic. Realistically I will never going to have a HEMI or six pack car. I also like to drive and modify them. My vote would be a restomod with a Hellcat HEMI. The only draw back is that the eshaust does not sound like the older muscle car.
I really like the way a nice cam sounds in the older motors myself. :yes:
But you never know. One day down the road I might wake up and decide that Hellcat motor is the way to go.
So here is a question to think about: You have your favorite e-body with no engine or trans and $25-30k to buy whatever you want. Are you going with old school with a 426 Hemi/440-6 or a gen III Hellcrate/329 Hemi whipple supercharged?
For me, and that is the key I think, everyone is different, I am not a numbers and paint dab guy.
That being said, I would be highly unlikely to heavily modify a Hemi car or a T/A or AAR. 6 pack car, maybe, it depends on how bad it is I guess.
In fact a Pink T/A or AAR is likely the only car I would spend the money to restore and not modify...especially if it were numbers matching.
Out side of that, I think its fair game for me.
Jason
The comment that was made in the other thread was that a 1971 original 340 Cuda modded with a Hellcat motor was worth more money then a correctly restored numbers matching 1971 340 Cuda....IN MY OPINION, I don't agree with that statement.
What I do believe strongly, is that a person modifying a car in this style, needs to believe that statement... :alan2cents:
I was into trifives and saw the flip of Resto mod cars surpassing numbers correct restorations. As said before as this group gets older it could very well happen here. Special cars like Hemis, TA's, AAR's and some other unique cars will still have their place. :alan2cents:
How many people want an all original 57 Chevy?
How many people want an all original Model T..........
I like the cars that appear to be original the most. For me the ultimate is an original Hemi Cuda or Hemi Challenger. I really do not find the new stuff attractive either, those new engines are pretty ugly. Also I really appreciate the original suspension engineering in these cars.
For me a modified car involves updated Torsion bar suspension and a fuel injected 426 based Hemi. That way you get the looks and modern performance.
A problem with modified cars is that they go out of style about every 5 years as well, Modified styles come and go,
This is a very great topic. The old car hobby is all about individuality. I like the 71 Cuda's but the car I wanted when I graduated high school was the new 1972 model. Therefore, I am drawn to that year more.
As for original vs modified. I have always been drawn to old cars simply because they have personality! I have no idea what any SUV made today looks like, one compared to another, they all look the same.......bland with no personality.
Therefore, I like to retain a largely original style look on the outside. But being an engineer, makes me want to modify the suspension, electronics, gauges etc for a more pleasing ride as well as better reliability.
While I like the original hemi's, the 5-7 mpg isn't good on my pocket book. The new hemi's look like a duck out of water to me so I opt to update the original 340 with efi and the 727 with an Overdrive. This way everything like it is where it belongs.
But with all of this being said, the underlying fact that is above all others...... is price. I cannot spend $100K or more on a car that I only drive when it's sunny outside and that can't drive long distances due to the rarity of parts is I have a problem. I don't want to worry if my toy will retain it's value so I don't take a bath someday. Instead I spend what I can afford and do the work myself so I get the enjoyment and satisfaction of driving a cool car I built and don't give a hoot about what happens to its value down the road. I call it the price of admission!
This is just my 2 cents on the topic.
Cheers!
Mickm
I love cars you can have fun with , I respect any restored original car but I love to have a 318 car to play with thus my Chall & Charger , the Chall was to valuable to really tweak but the Charger ,another story !
Best bang for the buck to me is still a stroked Big block with a ton of power on a budget but I had planned to add multi port EFI & twin turbos , old school but with added technology , unfortunatly the Charger is gone & I never found any $$ to build it the way I wanted it so it is all a pipe dream .
I love the idea of a Hell crate with a warranty but there is no reason you cannot add the technology to any older engine & get better power with the same drivability as I have proven this is easily doable .
I agree that quality workmanship means a lot over just hacking something together , the RR I helped build would run mid 11s in street trim [ same tire pressure , air cleaner on , no special fuel etc ] had Victor heads & intake with a .660 lift solid roller cam but it would idle @ 900 rpm easily as the EFI fired every cylinder every time , you could drive it in traffic cruise on the highway effortlessly , it didn't have the lumpy cam sound at all & even have a hood scoop , stealth except for the decibles !! :stayinlane:
Quote from: anlauto on March 22, 2018, 04:02:35 PM
The comment that was made in the other thread was that a 1971 original 340 Cuda modded with a Hellcat motor was worth more money then a correctly restored numbers matching 1971 340 Cuda....IN MY OPINION, I don't agree with that statement.
What I do believe strongly, is that a person modifying a car in this style, needs to believe that statement... :alan2cents:
A '71 Cuda modified with a Hellcat engine has a higher value currently than a numbers matching 340 '71 Cuda, and I do believe this statement.
With the announcement of the Hellcrate, there are many people modifying all kinds of Mopars now and I think you will see these cars hitting the market over the next couple of years including the big auctions. IMO these will sell for a higher value than a numbers matching 340 '71 Cuda simply because of demand, but we will soon find out.
It is a great time for muscle cars, old and new. The new Gen III Hemi's have expanded the market to the younger generation and to people that do not have the knowledge or skill to properly tune and maintain OE cars. In addition, there is a depleting number of shops that know how to fix OE cars. There is a large audience that loves the look of a classic muscle car with the performance and reliability of a new car.
I will certainly agree to disagree :drinkingbud:
Quote from: 303 Mopar on March 23, 2018, 08:30:28 AM
Quote from: anlauto on March 22, 2018, 04:02:35 PM
The comment that was made in the other thread was that a 1971 original 340 Cuda modded with a Hellcat motor was worth more money then a correctly restored numbers matching 1971 340 Cuda....IN MY OPINION, I don't agree with that statement.
What I do believe strongly, is that a person modifying a car in this style, needs to believe that statement... :alan2cents:
A '71 Cuda modified with a Hellcat engine has a higher value currently than a numbers matching 340 '71 Cuda, and I do believe this statement.
With the announcement of the Hellcrate, there are many people modifying all kinds of Mopars now and I think you will see these cars hitting the market over the next couple of years including the big auctions. IMO these will sell for a higher value than a numbers matching 340 '71 Cuda simply because of demand, but we will soon find out.
It is a great time for muscle cars, old and new. The new Gen III Hemi's have expanded the market to the younger generation and to people that do not have the knowledge or skill to properly tune and maintain OE cars. In addition, there is a depleting number of shops that know how to fix OE cars. There is a large audience that loves the look of a classic muscle car with the performance and reliability of a new car.
Yea we haven't really got to see a sampling of the values of the restomod Mopars yet. Unlike the older GM's that we see all the time at auctions now. If the GM's are any indicator and I believe they are. Dan is correct. A few years ago you wouldn't think a split window Corvette with modern drive train would bring stronger money than a original. But we are witnessing it. Time will tell. With that said I have seen the value on the move up with the 71 340 Cuda's. Especially with a 4 speed. Hagerty says add 10% for 4 speed. I really think it's more like 25% with all the makes and models I see selling at the auctions. :alan2cents: People clearly want manual transmissions over the auto's.
So my question from the other thread. If you restomod 2 71's and they are identical in every aspect. One is a original (BS) Cuda and the other is a original 6 cyl or 318 (BH) Barracuda. Will the Cuda bring more money or will it even matter to the buyer? :thinking:
People buying "resto-mods" shouldn't care about the VIN number.
About ten years ago...1971 Hemicuda convertibles were trading hands in the millions of dollars....If I recall correctly a blue one set a record at 3.5 million...shortly after that sale....a couple of similar clones started selling in the $400K to $500K range....so what everybody do....they started building 1971 Hemicuda convertible clones to cash in on the market....some were smart and started with "lesser " cars like 70/71 318 & /6 convertibles, even converted hardtops....but some fools went as far as even yanking the 340's and 383's out of their original BS27 cars to dump a Hemi in them.....
Well guess what......fast forward ten years....the "hemicuda convertible clones" sell for $80K-$90K while you can not find any 1971 340 or 383 convertible for under $100K....
Same thing is going to happen with this flash in the pan resto-mod craze.....people will destroy original cars hoping to cash in, and some will, but some will fail.
The current Chevy and Ford resto mods bringing "big bucks" are not simple engine swap cars, they are very high end customs built by big shops mostly. Complete drive train, suspension and interior upgrades, not just a new motor bolted in.
For me, if I wanted a car to handle like a new car, be as powerful as a new car and be as reliable as a new car.....guess what......I'm going to buy a NEW CAR ! and continue running PolyGlas tires on my classic. :alan2cents:
Quote from: Shane Kelley on March 23, 2018, 09:19:19 AM
So my question from the other thread. If you restomod 2 71's and they are identical in every aspect. One is a original (BS) Cuda and the other is a original 6 cyl or 318 (BH) Barracuda. Will the Cuda bring more money or will it even matter to the buyer? :thinking:
I think the BS car may bring a little more money, but the further you stray from OE numbers matching the smaller the difference becomes. The obvious winner of your scenario is the guy with the BH as he gains the most profit. :banana:
I think what folks are missing here is what the market will bear when it comes to prices.
Will younger generations value the same car you love, do they care if it's a BS and not a BH? Do they care more about the resto-mod options over having that rear defrost option with a four speed and longitudinal stripes?
From what I have seen from my own younger relatives is that they grew up in a throw away world. Heck if your car breaks you throw it away and get another. This is why you don't see any more auto shop at school or heck even young kids now getting their license at age 20!!!
It's just a different world now....
:iagree:
Most couldn't care less about any car unless they were taught to appreciate them & the majority want tuners / throw away cars
My opinion is if the car is a R,V,U,J,N,or H code they will be worth more original . All others value may increase with a modern engine.
To add more things to consider, add fuel injection and computer controlled timing to an older engine and the reliability and driveability will be as good as the newer engines, but with the sound and style of the old. In my opinion the best of both worlds.
A GenII Hemi swapped into a car will increase the value of the car, unless it is a BS27 or a V-code to begin with, simply because of the much higher cost of the engine and the parts required to put the engine in the car. If both cars are restored to the same level. At least that is what I have observed in the past.
Resto-modded cars are much more personalized and, I think, thus have a smaller buyer base.
My :alan2cents:
the pedigree cars will stay with in there own class and values. And exchange hands with in that realm of collectors . Which 90% of the rest of us are Not in that class. To compare this or that car to car. Will really depend on the quality of the restoration or conversion and what will that potential buyer or auction bring ?? We have seen stupid numbers at the past BJ auction which I just shake my head at. As Shane pointed out. The moded out vettes brought stupid money. Intentional in an auction setting probably. Which again most of us will not be in that situation. The basic cars for the basic owners will do what they can afford. Yes 15k for a 707hp injected engine. you cant build that reliability for the money. But its going to cost another 10-15k to support that engine. So that goes back to a basic small block or big block build for the reasonable owner. AS others pointed out we have a generational gap that is clueless and don't care about automotive history. So where does that lead us??
I totally agree with Alan on this one. I think if you want to chop up a car please do it to a base model and hopefully one that is incomplete and rusty. If I was to find a nice 318 70-71 E-body these days I would return it to original. Aaaaand, I bought my 08 Viper for a reason, it does "stuff" great and I love it, I want an E-body for a different reason than the reason I love my Viper.
Yes a customized modded 71 Cuda that was an original 340 car could sell open market more than a 71 340 Cuda. Doesn't mean they would cost the same to built. Cause they wouldn't.
But that is TODAY....
History repeats itself...
Remember when people did:
360 magnum efi swaps...That was cool.
V-10 viper motor swaps...Very trick
5.7 Hemi swap...Wow
6.1 Hemi swaps. State of the art.
Anyone still drop their jaw about a beer barrel 360 efi swap ???
Today's Hellcat motor swap is yesterday's V-10 swap.
"State of the Art" and "Modern" by definition has a expiration date.
And if you think he cost of doing a top shelf stock restoration costs more than you can sell the car for... go play in the world of top shelf SEMA type custom cars.
& over the last couple of years, the resto-mods are getting the press & the big monies at auctions VS. stock restorations
a couple examples: ballpark - from memory
Tim Welborn's former 1969 HEMI Charger 500 - non-numbers museum/collection quality hammered at $93K
there was a high end resto-mod 1970 Charger that hammered for $140K & everyone was in awe (I heard close to $300K was spent on the build)
$140 sure is impressive but not when you consider it was a 6-figure LOSS
sometimes the backstory explains a lot & the advertising aftermarket has little for a restoration style build - follow the $$
To me it's all about big engine, fat rear tires, original look, nice slanted rake. Nothing compares to the sound of a BB stroker in MY mind, whether that's a Hemi or wedge. When I see modern stuff in classic muscle, it just doesn't do anything for me....
BUT, I am on the verge of buying a new hellcat at the same time....F8 wide body...I just love that car. I appreciate both.
I have dreamed of having 1 nice # match car,
but, then I would worry about the car > damage.
The best thing for me is saving what mopars I can.
get them out there>> drive them
I buy them with engine / trans problems,
mostly rolling without engine / trans
only 1 cuda, due to todays cost
working on a 73 BS23G
I'm 3rd owner
2nd owner told me, orignal owner ordered it with a 318, due to Insurance
my plan 2 directions
first 449 (small block) 4500 stahl 727, 4.56
want to play with it this summer
winter - mild 340 a-500, 3.55
gift to my Daughter, she has been wanting the car a long time
it was dark green, she like Lime green with 340 hockey strip, tint windows
paint mirrors and bumpers.< Not for me, but what she wants
is it worth more with a mild engine ???
but it would be more street friendly, better fuel milage