Have been on the forum now for a few months, but realized that I haven't really introduced myself or the car; just asked a bunch of questions :haha:
A little back story. So my wife's family are all die hard Mopar fans and she was raised in it. Her family together owns four running MOPARs and has a whole storage facility/lot of other cars, engines, transmissions, etc. Those running are a 68 Barracuda, 69 Road Runner 440, 70 Charger R/T, 65 Coronet 500...can't even name the others stored. Her dad was previously the president of Southern Colorado Mopars and the family has been going to Mopar Mile High Nats for something like 25+ years. Her parents, her and her brother have never owned anything other than a Mopar, so when my wife and I started dating, she said took into consideration that I owned a Jeep at the time.
I have always been a fan of cars, but not exclusively Mopars, though they are undoubtedly my favorite classics. Well, since I have been married, it's always been me who has gotten to have the cars I want. Still, I have always know that as long as my wife can remember, she's loved 72+ e-body cuda's (round tails). Last fall we were camping with family, including my wife's god father (owns a 70 AAR Cuda) and he told my wife that a common acquaintance was looking to sell his cuda and had made him a good offer, but that since he knew my wife wanted one, he'd defer to her if she wanted it. Knowing the offer price, we went to check it out and jumped on it.
The is a 72 Cuda 340 and the previous owner is also a Mopar guy (notice the background in one of the photos below). Car only had 107K orig miles and was running. Engine and trans had been relatively recently rebuilt and overall was in good shape. Car has clean title and build sheet, but no finder tag or door sticker. Engine is matching, but trans is not. For the price, we think we got a great deal and bought immediately. We now have it at home and I am beginning to get it to a reliable running condition and plan on slowly improving it to a respectable clean leisure driver my wife can enjoy for a long time.
Since I am active duty military and together we own/operation two additional small businesses, its likely going to be a slow process, but I am happy to have it to work on.
Multiple pics below...interested to know anyone's evaluation or input.
This was our initial look prior to buying. Notice the other fully restored beauty in the background...
Kept a few days at the 'rents house until we could get it home. Think my father-in-law likes Mopars?
This is my wife's childhood (and current) dream car...she is happier than can be. Did I mention that our cat is named Cuda?
As she currently sits. Have bought the tips, just need to get it in for install. Car seat is out for some electrical work.
Some vehicle info. Build sheet. Dash and engine match. Front end is different, but still have clean title. Trans is also different.
That was a cool story. Welcome to the forum! :welcome:
Looks like that car is in pretty good condition. Nice! :twothumbsup:
And thank you for your service to our Country! :handshake:
:welcome: from Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada :canada:
You have found your E-Body home, the best E-Body site in the world...
Great story, good luck on your restoration....
Haven't been able to do much yet. First issue was that the drivers side head was leaking antifreeze from the valve cover screw (vid attached). Got that sealed up, then realized the car should have burned to the ground... The car had two fuel pumps and the electric was badly wired and the switch and terminal point was melted. Then the power wire to the pump was loosely ran and badly frayed, exposed to the frame :unbelievable: Pulled all of that out and leaving it with the mech pump. Also had some badly mauled rear harness and signal switch wiring that were patched up. Was causing some screwy light issues so I have replaced both...planning on finishing with the dash, front and engine harnesses as well. Also the dash lights are not working and I suspect its something with or before the dimmer switch as all the path from there through the fuse block to the lights was power probe tested good. Tried to clean up the dimmer switch contacts the best I could without disassembly but still not working. Also think I have some issue with the horn relay wiring that I need to figure out. Also had a good amount of some weird cat litter look/consistency stuff in the steering column when I replaced the signal switch???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f7pz9zG_gY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f7pz9zG_gY)
:welcome: from Erie, CO north of Denver. Great looking Cuda!
Wes
Beautiful Cuda! Welcome.
Welcome! From Salida Colorado.
Spent my teen years in Widefield. What part are you in?
Sweet looking ride.
Even better it's originally a gb5/gb5
Welcome and nice ride.
Welcome and beautiful Cuda! I'm just up I-25 from ya, and there are several CO members now. I bought my '68 Charger from a guy in Co Springs a couple years ago, and my '69 Sport Satellite from a guy in Pueblo last year. There seems to be a huge contingent of Mopar people in Southern Colorado. I would like to get a chance to go to one of the Mopar events down there this summer! :grouphug:
:welcome: from Florida. Nice Cuda. I hope you have a lot of good luck with it. Looks like it is in good shape.
Welcome from Sylmar, CA
Quote from: cuda hunter on February 04, 2018, 05:46:06 PM
Welcome! From Salida Colorado.
Spent my teen years in Widefield. What part are you in?
Sweet looking ride.
Even better it's originally a gb5/gb5
Funny, I am born/raised in Colorado Springs, but moved around a lot until about 4th grade. After that I live three different places in Widefield, off Bradley on Spur Dr then in the keyhole streets (Leta) and then finally on Morningside behid the Knights of Columbus. Three different district 3 elementary schools and then Widefield for high school. My wife is from Widefield (further south near Mesa Ridge) and all of her immediate family graduated from Fountain.
Yep, actually wish the prev owner would have repainted it orig color. Paint job is not stellar either, but that will have to be reevaluated down the road.
Welcome to the site from Michigan! Great Story and sweet car! Glad you finally introduced yourself!
:waving:
Quote from: Adam213 on February 05, 2018, 12:43:36 PM
Quote from: cuda hunter on February 04, 2018, 05:46:06 PM
Welcome! From Salida Colorado.
Spent my teen years in Widefield. What part are you in?
Sweet looking ride.
Even better it's originally a gb5/gb5
Funny, I am born/raised in Colorado Springs, but moved around a lot until about 4th grade. After that I live three different places in Widefield, off Bradley on Spur Dr then in the keyhole streets (Leta) and then finally on Morningside behid the Knights of Columbus. Three different district 3 elementary schools and then Widefield for high school. My wife is from Widefield (further south near Mesa Ridge) and all of her immediate family graduated from Fountain.
Yep, actually wish the prev owner would have repainted it orig color. Paint job is not stellar either, but that will have to be reevaluated down the road.
Widefield high huh? Gladiator !!
So what year did ya graduate? I'm 94'
I graduated in 99; as did my wife...she was the first graduating class of Mesa Ridge after they split district 3.
Cool. She went to school with my sister. I think she's 2000. Mesa Ridge.
Small world. My dad runs the baptist church right next to Widefield.
Did you get the correct dash tag that belongs on your car? The dash tag is a 72 and the body is a 73.
QuoteI am no expert, but you seem to have a 73/74 front and rear bumper set up. I cant make out what kind of bumper guards you got going on the rear, but they dont seem to be stock for any year. @Burdar (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/burdar_173) want to chime in?
Looks to me like the rubber portion was removed and just the metal piece remains......with the holes filled and painted black.
Quote from: HEMICUDA on February 06, 2018, 10:24:21 PM
Did you get the correct dash tag that belongs on your car? The dash tag is a 72 and the body is a 73.
Not sure what you mean...
Great Car - Welcome to the boards from Castle Rock.
Quote from: Adam213 on February 07, 2018, 11:39:53 AM
Quote from: HEMICUDA on February 06, 2018, 10:24:21 PM
Did you get the correct dash tag that belongs on your car? The dash tag is a 72 and the body is a 73.
Not sure what you mean...
Maybe he means there is a 73 rear bumper filler pieces and 73 bumper guards, but you say its a 72 so its a little confusing. Im in no way complaining, you just mentioned an "evaluation" so that was my :alan2cents:
The two body stamped numbers do not match the VIN plate number.
Ya, I was told (and saw) that the front end didn't match the build sheet/dash vin, but didn't catch the bumper.
As long as the body numbers match the title, you should be ok. If the dash from another car was used to replace a bad one in your car, that would explain the wrong VIN plate. It's happened before. If your title matches the VIN plate on the dash...you've got some problems. :headbang:
Quote from: Burdar on February 08, 2018, 07:52:54 AM
As long as the body numbers match the title, you should be ok. If the dash from another car was used to replace a bad one in your car, that would explain the wrong VIN plate. It's happened before. If your title matches the VIN plate on the dash...you've got some problems. :headbang:
Title matches build sheet, dash and engine...
Didn't pay a whole lot for the car, knowing it wasn't full matching numbers. Intent is just to have a clean/fun running driver for my wife.
Unfortunately, that's a big problem. The BODY numbers(on the rad support and cowl) need to match the title. Right now, you have a title to a dash pad and engine. Legally, the body isn't yours. You need to go to your DMV and see what they require. They are probably going to do a vehicle search to see if the body #'s come up as stolen. If not, they will most likely issue another VIN to the car.
Quote from: Burdar on February 08, 2018, 08:34:06 AM
Unfortunately, that's a big problem. The BODY numbers(on the rad support and cowl) need to match the title. Right now, you have a title to a dash pad and engine. Legally, the body isn't yours. You need to go to your DMV and see what they require. They are probably going to do a vehicle search to see if the body #'s come up as stolen. If not, they will most likely issue another VIN to the car.
Quote from: Adam213 on February 08, 2018, 08:14:46 AM
Quote from: Burdar on February 08, 2018, 07:52:54 AM
As long as the body numbers match the title, you should be ok. If the dash from another car was used to replace a bad one in your car, that would explain the wrong VIN plate. It's happened before. If your title matches the VIN plate on the dash...you've got some problems. :headbang:
Title matches build sheet, dash and engine...
Didn't pay a whole lot for the car, knowing it wasn't full matching numbers. Intent is just to have a clean/fun running driver for my wife.
I agree you have an issue that I would address with the PO of the VIN mismatch. However, Colorado only requires a VIN verification of the VIN on the title with the VIN on the dash and/or door sticker. They do not look for body numbers.
Well, we do know the PO (long time acquaintance of both my father-in-law and wife's god father), so I can call and ask him for more info, but he wasn't misleading when we bought it, he said the front end stamps didn't match...can't remember if he said he also bought it that way.
Honestly, just want to do whatever is the right thing to do, if that means getting the DMV to run the body numbers and/or reissuing the title. If CO rules are as 303 Mopar states, then nothing is wrong with the DMV.
Personal goals are not to show quality restore the vehicle or resale it for profit. We just aim to make it nice, reliable and use it as a fun driver. Don't ever plan on selling it, but if we ever did, want to make sure we are doing it right. Also, as far as value, want to know where we are with putting money into it and associated value with the body not matching everything else we have for documentation.
Welcome! I'm up in Westminster :cheers:
the VIN and body # thing can be an issue for sure. the reason being is that someone can steal a very nice looking Cuda and replace the dash from a POS Cuda .... now you have a good Cuda ... and someone that lost one. That is why the dash #s need to match the body #s. doesn't matter if the motor and tranny match, but the body and VIN do. interesting that the build sheet matches, because that means someone purposely changed out the back seat to have the correct build sheet in an incorrect car. something fishy there IMO
just my opinion. I'd have it inspected by CSP (they had to inspect mine and run the #s before I could get a valid title) to validate it and get a re-issued VIN. the bad side, you may very well find that the vehicle was stolen at some point and you'll be SOL. :alan2cents:
Quote from: ec_co on February 08, 2018, 12:29:19 PM
Welcome! I'm up in Westminster :cheers:
the VIN and body # thing can be an issue for sure. the reason being is that someone can steal a very nice looking Cuda and replace the dash from a POS Cuda .... now you have a good Cuda ... and someone that lost one. That is why the dash #s need to match the body #s. doesn't matter if the motor and tranny match, but the body and VIN do. interesting that the build sheet matches, because that means someone purposely changed out the back seat to have the correct build sheet in an incorrect car. something fishy there IMO
just my opinion. I'd have it inspected by CSP (they had to inspect mine and run the #s before I could get a valid title) to validate it and get a re-issued VIN. the bad side, you may very well find that the vehicle was stolen at some point and you'll be SOL. :alan2cents:
Or whomever did the merger just had a build sheet that the dash/engine came from. Interestingly enough the body is actually blue which matches the build sheet. Will start by asking the PO for some more info and then talk to the DMV/CSPD to see. Would they run it with just the last VIN digits on the body stamp? If nothing comes back, how will they find the full VIN to issue a different title?
Quote from: Adam213 on February 08, 2018, 01:12:32 PM
Quote from: ec_co on February 08, 2018, 12:29:19 PM
Welcome! I'm up in Westminster :cheers:
the VIN and body # thing can be an issue for sure. the reason being is that someone can steal a very nice looking Cuda and replace the dash from a POS Cuda .... now you have a good Cuda ... and someone that lost one. That is why the dash #s need to match the body #s. doesn't matter if the motor and tranny match, but the body and VIN do. interesting that the build sheet matches, because that means someone purposely changed out the back seat to have the correct build sheet in an incorrect car. something fishy there IMO
just my opinion. I'd have it inspected by CSP (they had to inspect mine and run the #s before I could get a valid title) to validate it and get a re-issued VIN. the bad side, you may very well find that the vehicle was stolen at some point and you'll be SOL. :alan2cents:
Or whomever did the merger just had a build sheet that the dash/engine came from. Interestingly enough the body is actually blue which matches the build sheet. Will start by asking the PO for some more info and then talk to the DMV/CSPD to see. Would they run it with just the last VIN digits on the body stamp? If nothing comes back, how will they find the full VIN to issue a different title?
Do you already have CO title? If so, you just need a transfer of title.
I do...DMV took the one with the payment/transfer on it when we registered it and issued a new clean title. Will they be able to find the full VIN from just the last 6 on the body?
Quote from: Adam213 on February 08, 2018, 01:26:37 PM
I do...DMV took the one with the payment/transfer on it when we registered it and issued a new clean title. Will they be able to find the full VIN from just the last 6 on the body?
So you have the title and the car registered to the VIN on the dash that matches the title. The body stampings only show part of the VIN (3B514618 - a '73 Cuda made in Hamtramck plant) whereas your dash VIN is (2B255097 - a '72 Cuda made in Hamtramck plant). From the body stamp you can not see the first 5 digits of the VIN (BH/BS/BP, 23/27, and the engine code). So yes, the Buildsheet and dash VIN plate were transferred from another Cuda, and this is illegal. An example why is taking a 318 Barracuda (BH) and replace the VIN tag from a '70 Hemicuda and then try to sell for way more than what a 318 Barracuda is worth.
To do the right thing is to call CSP as
@ec_co (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/ecco_77) said and get this cleared up. You will either get a new VIN or you car impounded if it is stolen.
@Cuda Cody (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/cuda-cody_1) did a great write up here of the VIN and body stampings. https://www.e-bodies.org/buying-your-first-e-body/vin-numbers/
by the 1973 model year the only first 5-digits of Plymouth E-body VIN choices are: "xxxxx3B514618"
BH23G - Barracuda w/318
BH23H - Barracuda w/340
BS23G - 'cuda w/318
BS23H - 'cuda w/340
All states are a little different in the way they look at vehicle VINs. Most consider the body numbers "partial VINs" and not full vehicle identification numbers. Times have changed a lot since these cars were built and the way VIN's are treated, but the main goal still the same. They are used to stop someone from committing fraud. So if a person took a body of a barracuda and changed the VIN's to make it a Hemi cuda there would be plenty of evidence of fraud. Where it gets difficult is when someone replaces parts of a car with other parts of a car. The "intent" is not normally fraud so this is where it gets in to a gray area. The laws are normally pretty clear about in the intent needing to be fraud or for profit by deception. My experience has been that most state inspections focus mostly on the dash VIN, door VIN and if the VIN is stolen. But it might be best to research this more with your state and see what they say.
..of course there is the possibility the front clip has been replaced due to collision damage or age. What number is stamped on the trunk rail? That could point to a vin swap or a front end rebuild. I had a Road Runner once that four different vin numbers/stampings on it because it had major body damage that was repaired with salvage parts. That certainly devalued the car compared to something more whole and with a traceable history, but it also was a reasonable result of saving a valuable car.
Sounds like the seller and your FIL are knowledgeable enough about these cars to have pointed it out to you that they may also know the rest of the story as to why there is a mis-match. I'd start with them before going to law enforcement. The guys in SoCo Mopars are a very above board bunch and I'm sure there probably are a few people there who know the details behind this car. It looks familiar to me and I wonder if I may know a previous owner, but I don't recall any stories about this particular car. Of course, since I've been in that club for 25 years and have seen a thousand different Mopars pass through the 100s of different members, there is no reason for this one to particularly stick out in my mind.
Yes, in Colorado so long as the vin tag and title match, they do not consider the body stampings as official vin numbers. You certainly can do official research on the car if you really have the urge to do so. State Patrol (CSP) is who will get involved with vin inspections . Colo Spgs Police (CSPD) typically does not get involved in these types of issues.
The reality of it all is there are numerous vin swapped cars out there and there have been from the first time someone swapped out a damaged E body dash pad. Pointing out the mix of stamped numbers and providing a reasonable price tag wouldn't fall under the definitions of fraud. While vin swapping is Federally illegal, this one is likely old enough and the swap between the two vehicles is similar enough to have never raised anysignificant red flags to anyone along the way.
Welcome, BTW.
I happen to have a friend who's wife is a CSP supervisor and she gave me the number to the dept that handles these things. I got the car for a pretty low price (IMO), so as Cody said, I don't think there was any attempt to commit fraud on value. As a person with a quite successful 18+ year military career and a security clearance, I will definitely attempt due process to ensure I am legally compliant...even if that means losing the car.
Though I personally am a big automotive enthusiast, I admittedly don't have a ton of in-depth knowledge about classics past makes, models, years, engines, trans, etc. I have learned a bunch in the past few weeks.
Actually much appreciate everyone's information and weighing in on my specific car/issue. I am one of those people who when they don't have the answer they both try to search to find it as well as seek the input to help get to a solution.
I thought E bodies had something like six different stamping locations throughout their structure, but I could be confusing that since I've only ever owned one of them and I haven't bothered to search out its stampings because its collectability is probably the lowest of the low in the E body ranks.
I think we all need to be vigilant about fraudulant cars but also be mindful that there is a pre-existing stock of vin swapped cars. Many of these can't be undone and may have occurred many years ago and we have no way of knowing if it was a simple mistake or a deliberate attempt at mis-representation unless all the records can be traced. Certainly changing a 73 Cuda to a 72 Cuda is so minor, in my mind, it seems to point to an amalgamation of two similar cars to keep one alive. So long as the price is reflective of these discrepancies compared to the more traceable cars, then that keeps the collectors happy and gives the rest of us a chance at entering the hobby for less than a house mortgage.
In this case, it was not mis-represented,in fact it was pointed out by the seller, its over all a solid unit that has been registered and had its title transferred multiple times along the way, and Adam213 got a deal on a car his wife always wanted that they can enjoy with a few minor repairs. Sounds like a win in my book.
Quote from: HP2 on February 09, 2018, 09:59:39 AM
I thought E bodies had something like six different stamping locations throughout their structure
Just two spots. Radiator support and cowl.
All other numbers are removable.
So, next item is to pull the dash and replace the dash harness (have found a couple wires without continuity), along with a couple other items while the dash is out. So now that I know I have a 73 body and some 72 interior parts and engine, what is the difference in the dash harnesses between these two years?
Both Y1 and CI have two different part numbers and prices.
Appreciate the help in advance.
Wire positioning in the connectors & Likely the engine harness has an underhood disconnect in 73