Hello all,
I am rewiring the "Redfish" and ran into a problem with the wipers. They worked perfectly before I started my revamp project but soon found that I had removed one of the prongs from the swith back without knowing it. I have purchased a new NOS switch and wired it in.
Currently, I do not have any movement in the first speed but in the second the motor will turn until it gets to a point where it stops, but you can tell it is trying to keep going but can't.
I removed the wiper arms, and the grill and moved the motor arm around but when it gets to the hard spot it is very hard to get it past.
Can someone shed some light as how I need to progress? I am going to contact AmericanAutowire to double check the wiring this week (the mopar guru was out this past week) to see why I don't have a first speed, but I need to know if this is something I can correct or do I need to replace the motor.
Any and all advice will be appreciated.
Cheers!
Mickm
If your switch is good (and make sure it's a 2 speed wiper motor switch as the 3 speeds / variable are different) then it might be best to test the wiper motor. Maybe Stephan could chime in and it might be something he can help you with?
http://forum.e-bodies.org/index.php?topic=352.0 (http://forum.e-bodies.org/index.php?topic=352.0)
Hi Cody,
Yes, I am sure I have a 2 speed switch. I appreciate your help.
Cheers!
Mickm
Thanks for the thought Cody.
In the meantime, I disconnected the wiper arm assembly from the motor. The motor has a hard spot in it where it gets stuck. It tries to keep going but can't, so I ordered a motor this morning.
Cheers!
Mickm
I think you have a good plan. Let us know if the new motor works out. :slapme5:
Quote from: Mickm on January 21, 2017, 11:24:03 AM
Thanks for the thought Cody.
In the meantime, I disconnected the wiper arm assembly from the motor. The motor has a hard spot in it where it gets stuck. It tries to keep going but can't, so I ordered a motor this morning.
Cheers!
Mickm
Have you attempted to bench test the motor to be sure the motor is giving the same results without linkage?
http://www.passion4mopars.com/Bench-Test-Mopar-2-Speed-Wiper-Motors-Concealed-and-Nonconcealed_b_5.html
(Cody if I violated any forum rules, please remove the link)
I'm not real well versed on two speeds, but I have a brain nearby to pick if need be LOL Thanks Cody. Jim texted me the link today, didn't know you were here :vipermanhiding:
Thank you roadman....sometimes you guys need to wiggle me or something, I seem to fall asleep at the bench and miss all the good new forums :lurking:
Guys, thanks for chiming in here as this is eating me up in little bites.
Here's the whole story up to present.
I have rewired the "RedFish" using a American AutoWire kit. Everything seemed to be good with the exception of the wipers. Note, they worked perfectly before I tore the car down.
AAW's kit is set up for a 3 speed motor and mine is a 2 speed. There is a plug with two wired (red/teal) that I was told to just not use since my switch didn't have a set of prongs for them.
After discussing with Craig at AAW, we came to the realization that when I pulled the old harness out, I must have pulled one of the prongs from the switch and did not realize it.
I purchase a NOS 2 speed switch that was exactly like the one I had (same part numbers) and it has the missing posts that had us stumped early on.
I installed it per the diagram Craig sent.
Now,when I turned the switch on, the first speed does nothing. The second speed ran the wipers about half way then they stopped, but the motor was still trying to turn. It appears as if they are was in a bind and the wiper bladed were all the way down.
I removed the wiper blades/assemblies and tried again. Now the arms are out of the equation.
Same results.
So I removed the linkage from the motor and tried again. Same result. I could give the motor some help when it bound up, pulling it past the hard spot and then it would make another 1/2 revolution and stop again. All the while the motor would be jumping as if it were in a bind.
Next I removed the motor and tried it out of the car. Here's where it gets really goofy. The motor will run perfectly while I hold it in my hand but if I mount it in the car it stops.
If the metal inserts around the mounting bolts touches the bolts, there are sparts.
I have mounted it without any nuts securing it and it still wont' run, but pull it off and it goes to running.
I have ordered a new wiper motor and it will be here Monday around noon.
Any help or insite will be greatly appreciated.
Cheers!
Mickm
Sounds like a ground issue. From what I'm hearing, once you ground the motor is starts acting funny and not working right? Correct?
That is what I am thinking. However, I removed the metal sleeves in the rubber mounts so they couldn't ground it out when mounted and it didn't make any difference, it still didn't work, but just slid it off and it runs in my hand without it grounding to anything.???
Thanks,
Mickm
When's your new motor get in? Something is grounded that shouldn't be :huh: So if you test the new motor and it does the same thing then we'll know it's in the wiring. That's my guess. (just a guess). But it sounds like something in the wiring is grounded and that's what is causing the problem. I'm not as good with wiring as I wish I was, but you might need to start check for a short or a ground on one of the wires that could be causing this. I'll keep thinking about it and let you know if I come up with any ideas. But for now since you already have a new motor coming in, lets see what that one does. :thinking:
Quote from: Mickm on January 22, 2017, 06:35:31 PM
That is what I am thinking. However, I removed the metal sleeves in the rubber mounts so they couldn't ground it out when mounted and it didn't make any difference, it still didn't work, but just slid it off and it runs in my hand without it grounding to anything.???
Thanks,
Mickm
From what I gather from your write up it sounds like something internal of the wiper motor shorting to ground. The housing probally flexes a bit when u tighten the bolts and is making contact inside. When u remove it spring back and is ok. That's assuming when it's in your hand it's still connected to the car wiring working fine and not bench testing. Without being there and seeing in person with a multi meter it's hard to say.
Thanks guys.
The new motor will be here tomorrow around noon.
AGramz, yes it runs when I remove it from it's mounting but still attached to the car's wiring.
I can understand there being a grounding issue but why is there not 1st speed?
I believe there is a problem in the wiring at the switch and/or the motor.
Thanks for all the input. I will let you know what happens next.
Cheers!
Mickm
Hi Mickm, just to be sure , you have the concealed 2 speed wiper motor ...Right?
Yes, it is the 2 speed motor for sure.
Cheers,
Mickm
I think Stephan means concealed vs non concealed motor. The E bodies used what is termed a concealed motor because the wiper arms are pulled below the cowl in a concealed position, but if the motor worked previously I'm actually leaning towards the wiring that was replaced. There are no wiring modifications that need to be done when you change say from a three speed/variable speed to a two speed and vice versa, it's just making sure that on a two speed you receive the correct concealed wiper motor and not a non concealed which is set up for a B body application and park position.
Have you tried to move your linkage and checked the pivots to be sure there is no binding that is putting this motor into a bind? Pivots, linkage, etc., over time, as I'm sure you are aware, will rust and bind and not move freely and will cause binding and additional load on the motor?
Quote from: Passion4Mopars on January 23, 2017, 10:10:47 AM
I think Stephan means concealed vs non concealed motor.
:iagree:
Also when you bench test your motor which test did you used ( Kim bench test procedure ) : concealed or non concealed . The concealed or reversing motor runs backwards to park. The non-concealed or non-reversing motor runs forward to park and one of the brushes is tied directly to the case ground. If the 4 connectors on the motor are in good shape the reversing motor will have 3 silver and P1 will be brass terminals. The non reversing motor will have 4 silver terminals. Another check way to tell is use a Ohm meter and check P-2 to ground. If it read a short its a reversing motor. One last question, do you have a ground strap on your motor.
Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words, at least for me LOL
If the motor was functioning properly prior to changing the wiring it should be a concealed unit. At least I'm going off that info from the original post.
Thanks Stephan for the explanation, I should've been more clear on that when I posted.
The photo helps! So look for the 3 grey metallic tabs to tell is it's a reversing?
Quote from: Passion4Mopars on January 23, 2017, 11:56:06 AM
Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words, at least for me LOL
If the motor was functioning properly prior to changing the wiring it should be a concealed unit. At least I'm going off that info from the original post.
Thanks Stephan for the explanation, I should've been more clear on that when I posted.
Are we sure that's an E-Body 2 speed wiper switch? Now I want to go look and see.... just to be sure.
Now I know why the switch doesn't look right to me, I'm used to seeing 70 switches. They changed in 1972, right?
Still looking... found this on my computer, but I think it's 70-71?
Found this too....
I'm going to go back and read all this tread again after dinner, but I thick you told us that you have now tried 2 motors and 2 switches?
I think we need to see the wiring diagram for his harness
I think the socket configuration is different on a 72 switch Cody. I'm looking through photos and two speed harnesses and sockets I have on my desk right now....what a mess
I'm not familiar with the harness he rewired with, I'm still hung up thinking it's something to do with the rewire and a new harness?
I'm going to keep thinking about this. I know we can get this solved. :yes: I'll ping Jim too. He's great with this sort of stuff. :bigthumb:
On your switch it should be labeled these pins
A - Goes to pin 2 in connector on Cody motor diagram
B - white acc power
F2 - Goes to pin 6 in connector on Cody motor diagram
P - Goes to pin 5 in connector on Cody motor diagram
H - Goes to pin 1 in connector on Cody motor diagram
It's late at night can somebody pls verify this is correct. I'm not an expert just from looking at diagrams I came up with this. Verify before using this layout pls.
Was only able to find 70 / 71 2 speed wiper switches in my extra parts. My hope was to find a 72+ switch and run some tests so you could do the same and then we could compare the results. I'm going to sleep on this a day and see if I can come up with other ideas. :thinking:
Here's the photo again so we can look at this on the same page...
Quote from: A.Gramz on January 23, 2017, 08:22:32 PM
On your switch it should be labeled these pins
A - Goes to pin 2 in connector on Cody motor diagram
B - white acc power
F2 - Goes to pin 6 in connector on Cody motor diagram
P - Goes to pin 5 in connector on Cody motor diagram
H - Goes to pin 1 in connector on Cody motor diagram
It's late at night can somebody pls verify this is correct. I'm not an expert just from looking at diagrams I came up with this. Verify before using this layout pls.
Thanks for all the help guys, I feel like were making progress.
I am a bit confused on how I know which pin correlates to which pin on the switch.
A - Goes to pin 2 in connector on Cody motor diagram
B - white acc power
F2 - Goes to pin 6 in connector on Cody motor diagram
P - Goes to pin 5 in connector on Cody motor diagram
H - Goes to pin 1 in connector on Cody motor diagram
Cheers!
Mickm
Kim and I have been in contact with Jim at JS Restorations and he is working on trying to come up with a way to test and help you. He mentioned that some of the factory documents that I posted might have some factory errors in the documents so lets stand by and see what he comes up with. He sent me this photo of him working on a solution! Jim is a GREAT guy!!!!!
LMAO I know I'm texting with him now on his "science project" and spaghetti junction he has going there, but he did the same thing for me with a three speed to show what a bad ground will cause in the operation of a three speed/variable speed.
I have a two speed harness on my desk with a wired socket, but I don't know what year the socket is for and I think the pin out might be different from 70 to 72. I can post it, but I'm not sure it'll help? :thinking:
Jim, on the other hand, is THE man on any switches. He's my go to when someone is having motor problems and after a bench test they work...then we've narrowed it down to switch and he has never failed me or my customers.
Cody,
I have replaced the motor (which I don't think was bad 'cause it was working fine before) and the switch. I replaced the switch only after I discovered one of the pins had been pulled out when I disconnected the original plug. However, the new switch is the exact same part number as the one I had originally.
BUT, as I posted earlier, I attached the green wire at the switch in place of the brown/white strip wire and I do have high speed operation now.
So now, I am just trying to get low speed to work.
Thanks for all the trouble and effort guys, You are awesome!
Mickm
Hi Mickm,
I see you are using an aftermarket wiring setup. Here is an edited picture that shows the wiring connections between these two parts without any factory jumper harness, bulkhead connector, etc. This would be the best way to eliminate everything, do a bench test and see how these two parts behave themselves with each other.
The colors on the switch side that match the motor side would be directly connected. I do show the brown wiring path that connects through the resistor before it going to the motor.
If all goes well, we have a solid foundation to build from. Re-install the motor and switch and see if there are any issues previously mentioned that are still occurring. This way we have a narrowed down what else to possibly look for.
What I had eluded to with Cody via email are conflicts that are in the FSM between model cars and their two speed motor wiring schematics. I think that might be better served showing those in a different thread, at a different time.
I think the purpose of this thread is simply to get your motor issue up and running. Hope this helps.
(https://forum.e-bodies.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi248.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg169%2FSlotts%2FTwo%2520Speed%2520Motor%2520-%2520Late%2520Model%2520Switch%2FWiring_zpsqf3hitpu.jpg&hash=5236698775ae7ca2876f51295b06c31b0d4c7881) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/Slotts/media/Two%20Speed%20Motor%20-%20Late%20Model%20Switch/Wiring_zpsqf3hitpu.jpg.html)
Jim
:veryexcited:Good news, it works!!!! :veryexcited:
I tested the motor per the oem instructions. Everything ckecked out.
Next, I checked continuity between each wire and it's corresponding wire at the motor.
I found the "brown" wire had none! So I checked and found that AAW's brown/white stripe did.
I switched the two wires, tested and everything is working as it should.
I uninstalled the new motor and reinstalled the original motor and it works perfectly.
Thanks to all of you who took the time and interest to help me get this sorted out.
American Auto Wire should include a wiring diagram in this kit to allow for the 2 speed motor. I plan to send them a photo similar to the 3 speed they show so they can use it.
Again, thanks to all of you.
Cheers!
Mickm
That's fantastic news!!!! :clapping: That makes my day to hear it's all working now. :veryexcited:
Quote from: Mickm on January 24, 2017, 10:08:56 AM
:veryexcited:Good news, it works!!!! :veryexcited:
I tested the motor per the oem instructions. Everything ckecked out.
Next, I checked continuity between each wire and it's corresponding wire at the motor.
I found the "brown" wire had none! So I checked and found that AAW's brown/white stripe did.
I switched the two wires, tested and everything is working as it should.
I uninstalled the new motor and reinstalled the original motor and it works perfectly.
Thanks to all of you who took the time and interest to help me get this sorted out.
American Auto Wire should include a wiring diagram in this kit to allow for the 2 speed motor. I plan to send them a photo similar to the 3 speed they show so they can use it.
Again, thanks to all of you.
Cheers!
Mickm
Now this is just great, a real exemple of knowledge put together to solve a problem, thanks for making this happen . Cody this is very promising :ohyeah:
Stephan
Quote from: Cuda Cody on January 24, 2017, 10:34:38 AM
WOW!!!! @Slotts (http://forum.e-bodies.org/index.php?action=profile;u=104) you are the MAN!!! :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: Super glad we have someone like you in the hobby to help us all out. You're the best! :bravo:
Quote from: Slotts on January 24, 2017, 09:48:53 AM
Hi Mickm,
I see you are using an aftermarket wiring setup. Here is an edited picture that shows the wiring connections between these two parts without any factory jumper harness, bulkhead connector, etc. This would be the best way to eliminate everything, do a bench test and see how these two parts behave themselves with each other.
The colors on the switch side that match the motor side would be directly connected. I do show the brown wiring path that connects through the resistor before it going to the motor.
If all goes well, we have a solid foundation to build from. Re-install the motor and switch and see if there are any issues previously mentioned that are still occurring. This way we have a narrowed down what else to possibly look for.
What I had eluded to with Cody via email are conflicts that are in the FSM between model cars and their two speed motor wiring schematics. I think that might be better served showing those in a different thread, at a different time.
I think the purpose of this thread is simply to get your motor issue up and running. Hope this helps.
(https://forum.e-bodies.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi248.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg169%2FSlotts%2FTwo%2520Speed%2520Motor%2520-%2520Late%2520Model%2520Switch%2FWiring_zpsqf3hitpu.jpg&hash=5236698775ae7ca2876f51295b06c31b0d4c7881) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/Slotts/media/Two%20Speed%20Motor%20-%20Late%20Model%20Switch/Wiring_zpsqf3hitpu.jpg.html)
Jim
Hi Jim
@Slotts (http://forum.e-bodies.org/index.php?action=profile;u=104) , great to see you over here! Your a class act my friend! :bradsthumb:
Guys, I cannot thank you enough for all the hlep on this wiring problem. If you have a suspension question, I can offer input but wiring is not my forte.
I am glad to report tonight all the wiper motor and arm assemblies are back in the car and working as they should.
I will tell you I blew 60 bucks as I reinstalled my original motor cause the new (rebuilt) made a terrible noise and mine is smooth and quite. But, that is the price you pay to play.
Please know that I am very appreciate of all who stepped up and took the time to help me get this problem solved. I posted this same problem on another site and did not get one reply.
I am a member her for life and can only hope I can "pay it forward" helping someone else in some way.
Cody, hat's off to you my friend for making this site and being the awesome individual you obviously are.
Cheers my friends,
Mickm
Super happy you got it working. :twothumbsup: There's a lot of great guys and gals on here. I'm right there with you when it comes to wiring things, I'm always looking to the experts for help. The Mopar hobby is much better off with people like Stephan, Jim and Kim in the world. They are some of the best!
Keep us posted on your project. :slapme5:
Quote from: Mickm on January 24, 2017, 08:47:33 PM
Guys, I cannot thank you enough for all the hlep on this wiring problem. If you have a suspension question, I can offer input but wiring is not my forte.
I am glad to report tonight all the wiper motor and arm assemblies are back in the car and working as they should.
I will tell you I blew 60 bucks as I reinstalled my original motor cause the new (rebuilt) made a terrible noise and mine is smooth and quite. But, that is the price you pay to play.
Please know that I am very appreciate of all who stepped up and took the time to help me get this problem solved. I posted this same problem on another site and did not get one reply.
I am a member her for life and can only hope I can "pay it forward" helping someone else in some way.
Cody, hat's off to you my friend for making this site and being the awesome individual you obviously are.
Cheers my friends,
Mickm