I am looking for some input from those of you that have an incredible respect for what these cars are and represented. These thoughts are coming from the "Poor Lost Cuda" adventure/thread, and so many other cars over the years, that have lost their original fender tags and lacking a full set of original documentation stuff. In my opinion, these cars are not candidates for full on period correct restorations (let alone high dollar investments). Although, they are good candidates for toys or "Tribute" restorations. Myself, I tend to lean toward the tribute restorations to honor the spirit of what these cars once represented. Some thoughts, opinions and input ?
Documentation is where the "value" is on both ends, before resto as a project , and after resto as a finished product. Everything in between costs the same.
In other words...using your old car as an example... If you restored it (or built it) as your dream 1971 Cuda, you would have just as much money invested as if you restored it back to 100% original. HOWEVER when it's finished, a clone or modified car will not have the same value as a documented numbers matching car...Because your car had no documentation, you might just as well build it as you see fit.
This is my plane Jane Barracuda and my all original Challenger. I restored them both and probably got twice the money in the Cuda to make it the way I wanted it. Sure I wish it was all original but it is what it is. The only way you could tell it's not is by the vin. And every Mopar guy looks at the cars and then goes right to the vin! I personally was never a numbers got to be perfect guy. Just want them as nice as I can do.
Quote from: Rich G. on November 11, 2018, 11:29:20 AM
This is my plane Jane Barracuda and my all original Challenger. I restored them both and probably got twice the money in the Cuda to make it the way I wanted it. Sure I wish it was all original but it is what it is. The only way you could tell it's not is by the vin. And every Mopar guy looks at the cars and then goes right to the vin! I personally was never a numbers got to be perfect guy. Just want them as nice as I can do.
FWIW I know the numbers, often I try not to look but even if I do look I still appreciate the cars & the effort it took to make them what they are....
Both your cars look Awesome!.. :alan2cents:
Oh, and I've built clones/tributes/imposer cars too... They drive like the real thing, they sound like the real thing, IMO they are likely more fun than the real thing cause you can drive them with a little less worry.....
I still miss my old cloned 340 Challenger convertible more than any other E body I've owned...
I think most matching #'s cars with documentation should be restored to original. The problem is that if you restore them too nicely you end up not driving them.
I've had a few matching #'s cars and drove them but the last few cars I have built were non matching #'s and I took some liberties with them. My next car will be along the same theme. It will be an R/T or a T/A but I prefer if the original block is gone and I don't know where it is. That way it'll be stroked, aluminum heads, bigger sway bars etc. but will still look stock and have half it's heritage anyway. Either you leave bare metal bare or you coat it to look like it is bare but when you cross the line it is crossed.
That's my opinion only of course and everyone has to do what works for them.
Also new engines in old Mopars are not my deal, I really like the factory combos and if I want a modern engine in an old car I'll build a 32 Ford. Of course I have no problem with other guys doing it to their own cars as that is what they like and it works for them. It's just not for me.
My red Challenger vert was a numbers matching all original car when I got it... I pulled & saved the original /6 & 904 & saved them for years.... When I sold it the new owner had zero interest & honestly I don't blame him... I know a few guys here on E bodies.org still run their /6's but if your honest they are severely underpowered & don't do any better on fuel than a V8..... And even as I get older I still feel the need to destroy tires every now & then...
I had the original block for my A-66. When I shipped the car to Europe the block wouldn't quite fit in the trunk and the new owners weren't too concerned. However I did ship it later and I'm glad they stayed together. Looking back I shouldn't have Hemified it as I did have the original block but small blocks just don't work for me (other than T/A's).
I understand the need for "tribute" cars, either you can`t find or can`t afford your dream car but to me even though it may drive, look the same it will never be as cool as a "real" one. I have a `72 Barracuda, 318 car that has a 340 4 spd and has been modified and gets driven hard and lot`s of fun but I still wish it a real `cuda, I also have a `70 road runner with numbers matching engine and it has a fender tag so I`ll be doing a 95% resto with some Day 2 mods, it will also get driven hard and often. Of course if I had a real Hemi car I might feel differently about driving them like I do but I think I would still drive them as unless it`s a survivor whatever happens can be fixed so enjoy them don`t just leave them in the garage to look at.
The rare cars are hard to find and very expensive, but nothing is stopping you from building your dream car to be just like it or even better! IMO build your car to be whatever you want. Upgrade the engine, suspension and brakes to today's technology because it will be more enjoyable to drive and will out perform and out handle any OEM restored car. Don't get all tied up the the numbers and paint marks unless you are going for a points car, but then you may just trailer the thing around.
:smile: For sure the numbers matching cars with all of the documentation are the most desirable to the purest and the only cars to have for the investors. There are some of the special combinations out there, that have survived, with the specialty colors that are very good investment cars. I really don't think any of these cars should be modified from the original configurations simply because there are so few of them to preserve for history purposes. The cars like my boys 70 Challenger R/T, that is missing it's fender tag and original motor & tranny, are the cars that are I see as candidates for the toys & tribute cars. All of them are expensive to do proper and how do you put a value on the enjoyment factor ?
Numbers matching you look at and brag to others about having an original.
Copy cats you drive and enjoy.
I was disappointed that I wasn't able to find an original 70 Cuda at the time I was trying to find one and had to settle for a clone. Personally, now I'm glad that it isn't because I can drive the hell outta it !! :D
Quote from: Racer57 on November 11, 2018, 07:24:08 PM
Numbers matching you look at and brag to others about having an original.
Copy cats you drive and enjoy.
I was disappointed that I wasn't able to find an original 70 Cuda at the time I was trying to find one and had to settle for a clone. Personally, now I'm glad that it isn't because I can drive the hell outta it !! :D
News Flash, Plenty of us drive the hell out of "investment grade" cars.... I love clones but if you think I'm staying home just cause I have a numbers matching 70 R/T vert your mistaken.... :alan2cents:
I do not think you can compare the two. They are different animals for different purposes. The all original numbers matching cars are built for investments and the simple joy of doing it to factory specs which is a great accomplishment today. Yes some people drive them and beat on them because that is who they are but I am sure they still worry about getting broadsided by a bus. The clones are built for people who can't afford a real car and don't want the hassles looking for and paying $1000.00 for a used master cylinder. They built it the way they want it with parts available and enjoy it and hope they can sell it for what they have into it when they no longer want it--but that never happens.
JS27
:alan2cents: Personally, I don't care what you have . . . a survivor, a barn find, a numbers matching blah, blah, blah, a clone, a fake, a real deal, convertible, one of one . . . non of that matters to me as long as it's a Mopar. A true muscle car enthusiast enjoys these cars for exactly what they are, pure Mopar muscle.
Wow! Very nice! I like that :worship:
A Claudia just nailed it. I still can't get over how many people don't know what a barracuda or challenger is. just look at the car for a few seconds, you will probably see the name on an emblem.
Just enjoy yourself out there. As I progress in years I learn more and more how short life is.
Exactly, everyone enjoys the hobby in their own way. Some of these cars were pooh-poohed back in the 70's for not being the sought after engine/year/etc. It's great they didn't all get crushed because most of them are pretty awesome now.
Quote from: nsmall on November 12, 2018, 09:39:13 PM
A Claudia just nailed it. I still can't get over how many people don't know what a barracuda or challenger is. just look at the car for a few seconds, you will probably see the name on an emblem.
Just enjoy yourself out there. As I progress in years I learn more and more how short life is.
I don't think Claudia did... "none of that matters to me as long as it's a
Mopar."
This part I agree 100% " Personally, I don't care what you have . . . a survivor, a barn find, a numbers matching blah, blah, blah, a clone, a fake, a real deal, convertible, one of one . . ."
I don't care if it's a Chevy, a Ford or even a vintage Toyota.... Cool is Cool & most newer cars aren't.....
My apologies . . . I have an appreciation for not just Mopar but for all (well except for maybe a Prius) :haha: . . . I just didn't feel it necessary to mention any others since we were discussing on an e-body forum . . . :cheers:
Funny, originally I typed Priuses suck but decided to generalize & say most modern cars aren't cool...
Hey, it's all good... I just find I have allot of car friends with cars other than Mopar's & when you get closed minded & exclusionary the hobby shrinks...
I can appreciate both a tribute car and a numbers trailer queen, but for different reasons. My convertible will be a tribute simply because when I got it the small block was mia, it was missing the fender tag and had a 440 in it. Plus I was young and didn't have the money for a high dollar car anyway. Now 25 years later I have history with this car and wanting to make all those what if Day dreams come true.
My 78 Lil Red Express and 70 383 charger 500 were numbers matching and that was great too. However I always planned on taking a different path with the Charger and always worried about that. Might have been one of the contributing factors on why I was willing to sell it to fund my Challenger conv project. I loved my LRE also but wrecked it and was forced to sell. I'm down to one muscle car now and want to make sure this one hits all the marks and lives up to the other sacrifices along the way.
So whether it is a tribute or numbers matching they should be looked at with passion. Although I will say the some of the "survivor" nonsense can rub me the wrong way from time to time. LoL
Visually a well-done "tribute car" is absolutely as appealing as the original with all the factory options: performance engine, trans, hood, graphics, exhaust, trim, etc. Only thing is a perfect clone is not an investment grade collectible but it does have all the eyeball appeal. If a blue collar worker's dream is to drive the "real deal" but can't afford it because they are raising kids and will need to help them later with college expenses then a clone might be the answer. My preference today, is a well built pro-touring classic. I'm intrigued by these marvels of technical achievement. SEMA is the playground for pro-touring enthusiasts. I miss going every year.
If you buy or build a clone, tribute, original or whatever you want to call it just for an investment or to make a profit when your done and not for the enjoyment of the hobby you probably need a different hobby.
Every time a dual quad Hemi starts, a Prius dies. :D
Mark Worman
I pretty much appreciate anything old too. I like GTO's, Mach 1's, 70.5 Z28's etc. I prefer Mopars for my own but I like them all as long as the owner's aren't dix.
I am not into clone cars but I understand that the lack of real cars and the desire to have EXACTLY what you want makes it a better thing to do for most people.
Plus many of the best cars were killed a long time ago.
When you drive your car around town etc., how many of the people that see it are wondering "Is that a REAL Cuda/Challenger or is it a fake" as opposed to "Thats a cool looking car !! "
99.9% of the people I know could care less if my Cuda is a copy or not. Hell, most of them get a confused look on their face if I tell them that everything about my car is Cuda, except the vin. :D
True but I only build my cars because I like them. If I enjoy driving them and knowing I have preserved something from my childhood it makes me happy.
Quote from: 1 Wild R/T on November 12, 2018, 06:44:24 AM
Quote from: Racer57 on November 11, 2018, 07:24:08 PM
Numbers matching you look at and brag to others about having an original.
Copy cats you drive and enjoy.
I was disappointed that I wasn't able to find an original 70 Cuda at the time I was trying to find one and had to settle for a clone. Personally, now I'm glad that it isn't because I can drive the hell outta it !! :D
News Flash, Plenty of us drive the hell out of "investment grade" cars.... I love clones but if you think I'm staying home just cause I have a numbers matching 70 R/T vert your mistaken.... :alan2cents:
I'm willing to bet you are in the minority Wild. The people that I know, and have known, merely used their 'investment grade' cars to hold the car cover off the garage floor. One of my friends has a '69 428 Cobra Jet Mach 1 Mustang. Hasn't moved in 15 years. I often tell him I could steal his car and replace it with cardboard boxes. And he would never know. Does just as good a job holding the car cover off the floor.
I love my "Tribute" car and I drive the crap out of it.
Quote from: Racer57 on November 13, 2018, 06:53:41 PM
Every time a dual quad Hemi starts, a Prius dies. :D
Mark Worman
@Racer57 Dave Rea said that to Mark Worman!
Quote from: Racer57 on November 14, 2018, 05:54:13 AM
When you drive your car around town etc., how many of the people that see it are wondering "Is that a REAL Cuda/Challenger or is it a fake" as opposed to "Thats a cool looking car !! "
99.9% of the people I know could care less if my Cuda is a copy or not. Hell, most of them get a confused look on their face if I tell them that everything about my car is Cuda, except the vin. :D
I have had a couple nitwits tell me well it's not a real cuda. I tell them no it is a gran coupe, Factory big block 4-speed. then drive it through there thick skulls it the base model cuda in a deluxe package.
:bigthumb: Most awesome ! These are the comments that I was looking for. The simple love of creating a great example of Mopar Muscle to the flat out appreciation of all the American muscle cars. I am really glad there are a lot of folks out there that do make the sacrifice to preserve some of the remaining history in as original specimens as they can. I hope enough of the younger generations are drawn into this hobby to keep it going for a very, very long time.
Quote from: Oldschool on November 14, 2018, 07:16:29 AM
I love my "Tribute" car and I drive the crap out of it.
I don't believe you.... I think it's a show pony/fair grounds cruiser...... :pokeeye: And yes I've seen a few of your videos so I'm just jerking your chain.....
I bought my car for $550, about what it was worth in 81, actually I paid too much! Nobody was caring or thinking about numbers then. You want to know how sad it is? I parted out a numbers 340 car with so many options. Put the disc brakes on this one, the interior, 6 way seat, That car had the headlight delay box. Lost it!
I'm so far past it. Just having fun!
Whats a 6 way seat worth? With all the suspension upgrades I did, it carves now. Need new seats!
Look how much they want for this clone that I just came across since we're on the subject. :looney:
Quote from: 1 Wild R/T on November 14, 2018, 04:47:42 PM
Quote from: Oldschool on November 14, 2018, 07:16:29 AM
I love my "Tribute" car and I drive the crap out of it.
I don't believe you.... I think it's a show pony/fair grounds cruiser...... :pokeeye: And yes I've seen a few of your videos so I'm just jerking your chain.....
It's all good my friend.... 8) :) :rebelflag"