Curious on what you guys would do.
My car runs really good. PROBABLY 64k original miles on it. Reliability is solid. Rebuilt heads (in the past).
I have a rear freeze plug leak. I also have what I believe is a rear main seal leak, being that there is oil present on the drip pain in the same spot. Both of these locations for leaks heavily suck, I am well aware.
Coolant leak amount: 1/2 cup over 5-6 days.
Oil leak amount: 1/4 cup over 5-6 days.
Option 1) Continue to ignore it until future engine rebuild. This could be 1-5 years away. What happens if I ignore it? Do freeze plugs "blow", or will they just leak more and more, which gives me ample time/ability to continue to monitor it. So far after a year, the leaky plug doesn't appear to be growing...yet.
Option 2) Pay to get it repaired. Probably looking at what, $1,000 mainly because of the labor? This might be $1,000 well spent however if it puts off an engine rebuild for 5+ years...or it could be a boner move...
Option 3) Rebuild engine now. I think this option would suck, would turn into a black hole, and seems unnecessary. There probably would be many "well, because it's out it made sense to do this...and that...and this..."
Currently I am following Option 1.
I'm guessing the freeze plug is rusty..... This will only get worse. And yes that does suck
1st question is
the engine has never been rebuilt correct , is the coolant leak getting worse ??
How long has it been leaking ?
No chance it is an exhaust stud & the coolant is leaking to the lowest point under the engine ?
you could replace the rear frost plug just dropping the trans too .
I would pressure test to confirm locating of the water leak
oil leak could be pressure sender but not usually that much oil but the rear main can be fixed without removing the engine at least so you could drive it for a season or more longer
If you rebuilt the engine now would it limit your choices ? when I build an engine I want to do it once & do it right !
I happened to be at the right angle and right time to see green liquid drip from inside the bell housing. I believe I took a picture too, maybe I'll post it later today. :(
Oil leak location I haven't confirmed, but heavily suspect rear main as oil is dripping in unison with coolant. Suspect it's also from inside/behind bell housing.
Engine has never been rebuilt.
Leak amount hasn't gotten worse in a years time.
If I rebuild engine now, it would just put more of a strain on the pocket book (this year I need to replace my HVAC) and would probably take several months and delay driving. If I rebuild, I'd like to start in the fall. Rebuild for me means rebuild & upgrade, but we can talk details in the 1/4 mile thread.
The right time to rebuild may be next fall, I'm hoping.
I agree that it will not get better but if you keep an eye on it, keep the fluid levels up you will probably survive at least a year. Many cars out there that have been leaking for many more years.
That's a lot of money to repair a freeze out plug and a rear seal. $20.00 in parts. Freeze out plug although a PIA it's not that hard of a job to repair. There's always stop leak if you plan on rebuilding it anyway, could buy you some time. Oil leak is a whole new story.
Well you could service the seal & rear frost plug with out pulling the engine out & run the engine for a few more years until you are ready to rebuild it .
Which is what I would do , unless you are ready to do a full rebuild with no compromise now
I hear you Chryco...I don't see that as a bad option.
I would actually trust my transmission shop to do this, since the bulk of the work is transmission work (removal). Putting in a freeze plug and a new rear main seal is pretty basic stuff that I'm pretty damn sure they could do.
Maybe I could get a quote from them. Who knows...maybe it's a $500 job? That would be money well spent....
Or simply just continue to monitor until the time is right.
Quote from: kawahonda on July 03, 2019, 11:23:43 AM
Curious on what you guys would do.
My car runs really good. PROBABLY 64k original miles on it. Reliability is solid. Rebuilt heads (in the past).
I have a rear freeze plug leak. I also have what I believe is a rear main seal leak, being that there is oil present on the drip pain in the same spot. Both of these locations for leaks heavily suck, I am well aware.
Coolant leak amount: 1/2 cup over 5-6 days.
Oil leak amount: 1/4 cup over 5-6 days.
Option 1) Continue to ignore it until future engine rebuild. This could be 1-5 years away. What happens if I ignore it? Do freeze plugs "blow", or will they just leak more and more, which gives me ample time/ability to continue to monitor it. So far after a year, the leaky plug doesn't appear to be growing...yet.
Option 2) Pay to get it repaired. Probably looking at what, $1,000 mainly because of the labor? This might be $1,000 well spent however if it puts off an engine rebuild for 5+ years...or it could be a boner move...
Option 3) Rebuild engine now. I think this option would suck, would turn into a black hole, and seems unnecessary. There probably would be many "well, because it's out it made sense to do this...and that...and this..."
Currently I am following Option 1.
OK, you got me! I read your Avatar as "big block" and thought..."there's no freeze plug in the back of a 383 or 440"
Then I read your signature line, and I see A66 Challenger. So that makes a little more sense.
For me, I don't like water leaks. Small water leaks become big water leaks. It's just a matter of when. "When" usually happens at the most inconvenient time, when the engine is under the most stress, and I can least afford the inconvenience. If your freeze plug is leaking because it is corroded, or has electrolysis or has water instead of straight coolant...then it needs to be changed. My advice is to change it as soon as you see a drop of liquid hit the ground. Once it is a drip, then it will eventually become a bigger drip. If a large chunk of the zinc coated steel plug cuts loose, then it will spray and the cooling system will lose pressure, and it will empty the radiator in a short time.
Besides, the expense is basically the cost of labor to fix it. I would normally argue to pull the trans and service it from the bottom...but you claim that it has 64K miles. That tells me that it wasn't an installation mistake, or a defect in materials or workmanship. It is far more likely that ALL of them are corroded in some amount, and I would recommend to change them ALL. Not next month, not next year. Do it now. Pull the engine, knock out the existing plugs, and change them all. Do NOT start by flushing the system, adding some aluma-seal or BAR's leak for a while, then run with the radiator cap loose for a while, then overheat the car a few times, then stop driving it because you are scared of overheating, then park it until you are ready to rebuild it, then disassemble it, then decide to restore it, then take it apart and leave it for 20 years. So that leaves Option 4:
Option 4: Pull the engine now, and replace the freeze plugs. You should be able to replace all of them for the price of two cases of beer. If you were here in the SF Bay Area, and you did all of the work yourself in my driveway...that's what I would charge you.
James.
That's an interesting option: pull engine (leave tranny in) and simply just replace the freeze plugs/seal and put it back in.
I am a firm be leaver if one freeze plug is bad than more are bad! That would bother me more than the oil leak. You could pull the engine change, ALL the freeze plugs and change the rear main seal on a cheery picker. or put it on an engine on a stand and do just what it needs :alan2cents:
I'd just bite the bullet and do the rebuild. The thing with problems is that they usually have friends.
Hmm...new heads...machine work...stroker kit....blueprint....new valve train....
How much should I budget? 5k?
How much space do I need in front of car to pull engine only?
Maybe I can get Chryco to stay and help. :)
I will be close :twothumbsup:
before you condemn the rear main seal reach your hand back behind the intake, around the distributor area.... Three things there that are common leaks, the oil pressure sending unit, the distributor O ring & the rear cork seal on the intake...
FWIW I agree about changing all the freeze plugs.. As far as rebuild, if it truly runs well has good oil pressure & good compression... Why rebuild it... Run it a few more years & pick up a roller 360 to build a 408 out of at an un-rushed pace... You can set the good running numbers engine safely aside, have a roller cam on the cheap & build the engine completely then swap it out over a weekend...
Exactly just start building another engine at a pace you can handle .
Quote from: Chryco Psycho on July 03, 2019, 05:10:01 PM
Exactly just start building another engine at a pace you can handle .
:iagree:
maybe a nice stroker big block! :lurking: :)
I understand that option, I just would like to keep the original soul in the original body....
What do you guys think about champion 404 rn12yc vs RN9YC?
I'm running the RN12yc and I'm thinking I might be a tad bit too hot.
Keep the soul safe while having fun with the body... (In the past I always tried to explain that to women, for you I guess I'll make an exception :rofl:)
Seriously though why chance hurting the original engine when you can store it in a corner & honestly the roller 360's a cheap & make a better starting point for stroker..
I'm not sold on a stroker yet, just an idea...
Remember my goals is only 13s. If I don't need a stroker to get there, then I won't. I imagine I would need some pretty stout heads though.
Something about driving a 340 is cool, and I don't want to lose that. No offense to a 360, there's just less cool factor.
Get it out to the track & see what you've got... Just about any Stroker with good heads is gonna jump right past the 13's & be solidly in the 12's or better.. But a stroker with the 308 heads off the 360 which are a better head than the X or J heads should be well & solidly in the low 13's..
340's are cool, but very few people can tell a 340 from a 360 or a 318 for that matter...
Most importantly is that the driver can..... :takepicture: :takepicture: :takepicture:
I'm thinking about taking it out mid july. Our track here is pretty slow. .5 - .8 second slower than at sea level. Just the way it is. I'll still take it out.
I still havn't practiced enough on my launches yet. Shift into first, hold brake, bring to what, 2200 RPM (if I can), then just let er rip and slap that son-of-a-b*$@$ up the track? Shift at 5200 RPM?
Neither leak sounds good. I don't work on small blocks but if it is possible to change all the frost plugs in the car I would do that and then chase down the oil leak. That frost plug deal could leave you stranded anytime. If they can't be done in the car I would take a weekend to pull the engine address the leaks and drop it back in. Again, I don't work on smallblocks but if I can swap a Hemi in and out in a day with the limited room available a small block should be no problem at all.
That's a lot of fluid loss in my opinion. If it were mine, the motor would be coming out as soon as possible. Definitely over the winter. You only need to fix what is broken.
If you aren't able to control the "while I'm in there" syndrome, all we can do is help you spend your money :takemymoney:
I suggest a 4" crank and a set of the new Trick Flow heads. With a mild cam you'll be well into the 500 HP/Tq arena.
I saw that my oil drain plug was a little lose, so I tightened it up. Maybe the oil leak was that easy...it was definitely dripping there.
I timed the water leakage at 2 minutes and 30 seconds per drip.
Let me see if I can get a good pic.
Extremely good news! Wow....happy fourth of July!
The leaking freeze plug is coming from the one right behind the starter on driver's side.
The picture makes it obvious. It's trickling down on the crossbar that goes from the engine to the bell-housing, and dripping from that.
I was under there for 10 minutes and couldn't see any other drip location...it's dripping exactly from that. I will clean the pan, and put a container under there to catch that exact spot to confirm. If no other leaks, than the choice with this one is simple---replace this freeze plug and keep her on the road.
Should I do this myself, or just pay a local (very awesome shop btw) to do this. I bet for the shop this would be a 30 minute repair...
Once you confirm that that is the location of the leak, then that would be something that you could tackle...
You will have to remove starter, though...
Drain radiator/block...
Use a punch to 'spin' the freeze plug in the bore, then large screwdriver to pry out...
Clean bore well... you will probably find a LOT of rusty gunk/chunks behind that plug, as it is the lowest flow area inside the block, so all the years of sediment end up back there.. clean out as much as possible...
I used black permatex on bore, and also a smear around outside of plug, then used a socket that just fit inside the lip, and tapped it in with mallet until you just see edge of block bore around the outside of the plug...
That sounds good.
Here's the activity after 18 hours.
There's obviously other leaks, but they seem minor in comparison to the starter area freeze plug leak.
Is this the size I need?
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/dorman-autograde-3358/hardware---fasteners-16585/expansion-freeze-plug-25102/expansion-freeze-plug---universal-17585/6c9fad9f97a1/dorman-autograde-expansion-plug/555031/4180743/1970/dodge/challenger?q=freeze+plug&pos=35
Looks like a "universal" freeze plug to me. May be best to look for an exact fit:
1.625 inches
41.257 mm
:bigthumb: Yup, mine were 1-5/8", so that should work... mine did not have the sealing ring around it...
So go for the doorman universal one for now? If it fits and seals, I'm fine with it. I'm not sure how exact it needs to be...
The other option is to order an exact fit-set, but that means 2-3 days (or more) in shipping.
The nice thing about the universal one is I can pick it up today and start work on it...
When they stop leaking, it normally means they're out of oil. :bigthumb: :haha:
Adding oil each week is just an extra slow oil change! :D
Universal.. Okay... Guess what? 1 5/8" is exactly the correct size....
Found a place that had these locally. I'm set.
As others have already stated, when one is leaking the others are rotting, so which ever ones you can access you should change...
Changing all of them is best but that requires either the engine or the trans comes out... I'd do what you can & cross your fingers.... And as mentioned, there's likely to be some crud hiding behind the plugs... I like to remove all that I can then use a garden hose to flush the block as much as you can.... First just force water through the radiator fill, then if you don't mind getting dirty shove the nozzle into the freeze plug holes & finally back to the top...
Is this a case though to not "disturb" the crud? I would hate to break up any stuff and have it go right into my brand new re-cored radiator. I definitely plan to get as much out as possible, but I'd hate to flush it around in there if it could end up where I don't want it....
Is there a way to flush the block without removing the thermostat?
Your removing the freeze plug or plugs, the crud will be disturbed... Disconnect the radiator hoses so it can't get there... You could force water through the heater hoses....
I will inspect the other freeze plugs, but if they look sound and dry, I won't touch them--on the sole basis that there does appear to be a small water leak still in the rear, but it's very tolerable...the one behind the starter is a big dripper and needs to be solved ASAP.
I'll take pics and follow up. Car is already jacked up and I'm about to begin. Got a six pack of coors to keep me cool....it's 90F in the garage.
I'll decide if I want to undergo the extra hour of flushing or not once I pop it out.
Maybe you'll get lucky & it'll be clean... I've seen a fair number that were clean, but most aren't...
Wow. Was nearly full of gunk.
The freeze plug is toast. The top area of it was my doing with a punch, but the bottom clearly has a rust hole.
I inspected all other plugs and they look good from the outside, no corrosion. Bright shiny metal.
I absolutely will flush this out knowing how much gunk was in there. I plan to shoot upwards into the water pump and hopefully that will do it. I absolutely will NOT shoot into the hole.
Here's the plug next to it. Looks good and no corrosion.
As completely accessible as that plug is & considering you have a bag full I would knock that one out for sure.... :alan2cents:
K. It's out.
In the pass side, they are less accessible.
First pic, motor mount is partially in the way.
Second pic, accessible.
Third pic, I have to remove that support bar. It won't be a clean shot to get it in, but it's possible. This one looks a little suspect.
Any problem if I remove that piece?
And any problem that these plugs are deeper?
They make a tool to drive the freeze plugs in, unfortunately it looks like AutoZone & OReilys don't loan it... Lots of ways to drive them in but having the tool is nice cause it doesn't need to be super straight, you can drive a plug from a 30 degree angle pretty easy, it never drives the plug to deep cause it has a flange....
I have an adapter for my air hammer that fits the inserts for the driver...
When I was younger I drove in a few very difficult to access plugs with a length of pipe that I bent to fit... You have enough plugs if you damage a few it's not a big deal... Coat the edges & the backside with RTV..
Remove the brace, deeper plugs are easier to set & seal.... I wouldn't hesitate to change all of the ones in the sides of the block... And maybe in the front of the block & heads too..
I removed 5 plugs. 3 have holes. The other 2 are fine.
The one I'm leaving in is behind the motor mount in drivers side. It looks solid.
Tomorrow I will continue flushing, clean bores, scotch Brite them, lacquer thinner and use black RTV and drive them home.
I may have to fiddle/faddle with a couple of them...."walk" them in by tapping the edges and get lucky since I won't be able to get a square hit on them, especially the passenger side motor mount one where the motor mount obscures 5% of it.
Not too worried...as long as they are in and straight, then they should seal.
Remember the heads are probably 10 years newer than the engine is, so not too terribly concerned with those....
I will definitely inspect the front freeze plugs tomorrow. I've noticed if I'm able to wire-brush them, and if they are clean with no signs of corrosion, they are probably OK to run for a few more years.
The one by the mount shouldn't be to hard to change... But just getting done what you have is :twothumbsup: After you drive a couple in maybe you'll consider the one by the mount...
Oh, just a picture of the driver so you can see how it supports the plug... I've sliced areas off the flange to get close to motor mounts & other obstacles...
Couldn't understand your last sentence...
The one on the driver's side is literally 90% behind the mount. I'd have to raise the motor up 7" in order to get to it....:(
The one on the passenger side is 5% behind the mount, which is doable as-is.
I think as far as the ones on the sides are concerned, I feel comfortable with the 5 I pulled. I'll visually inspect the ones on the front tomorrow by wire brushing. Any signs of corrosion then they get removed.
Why RTV the back of the plug? I would think just the bores + spreading a thin film on the sides of the plugs would be sufficient?
EDIT: just looked at the front ones. They are really solid and smooth. Will leave-em. The ones on the heads look great too...nice and blue color. LOL
Maybe cause I forgot to add a picture..
Reason to smear the back side of the plugs? Because silicone doesn't rust so the plugs don't rust either...
:bigthumb: I am happy you are able to get at it & fix it
Yea! This work won't fix it completely as I believe there is still a rear plug leak, but instead of it leaking a bunch, it will only leak a little. If it bides me another year, I'd consider the 5-6 hours of work and $10 of repair worth while!
I only put in 3 hours today...started at 5 PM. Got all the plugs out that I wanted out, and flushed it a few times. Will probably flush it some more tomorrow and then start cleaning/detailing the bores. This is a dirty as job...you will get wet....a shower is absolutely mandatory.
Good news is that these plug(s) are leaking from corrosion from the center, not from the edges. I suspect that it will never become a "blow out" leak, but more or less just more of a steady drip. In that case, I'm not so worried. Just keep a pan under it in the future and clean it up. Instead of cleaning it every week, now I get to clean it every 3 weeks. Not bad.
My Zen/approach with this car/restoration is much different than with my other restoration when I was younger. When I was younger, everything went out, it all got redone, many thousands spent, many hundreds of hours spent, many things learned, but burned out and didn't want it anymore. 98% of the time was wrenching. 2% of was driving. That is simply not the right ratio...with this car, the goal almost always is to keep it on the road. If I ever take it off the road, I better have a damned good reason. It's the only way I can stay sane...
I'd reckon after this repair, she will leak about a teaspoon a day of oil/coolant mix. I can live with that.
The first leak I fixed was the transmission leak...it was seriously wayyyy more....and I HATE transmission fluid. Shit is hard to wipe up, stinks, greasy, and it looks like blood. LOL. Zero transmission leaks now.
When your bored you can drop the trans.... If you have a friend with a rack it's not a hard job... On your back.. Well I wouldn't want to do it anymore but when I was in my late thirties I could do it in about 1.5 hours...
Yeah...you guys are more than welcome to come up and stay and chill out in the garage while I do work....
I'm most worried about getting all that crud and shit up through my new radiator. I'll just spend a little more time flushing the crap out of it...from both sides!
My guess is that I'll be done with this on Sunday. Tomorrow my goal is to finish flushing, make sure it's all clean/dry, and maybe start tapping in some plugs. We'll see. The passenger side front plug (slightly in the way of motor mount) and rear plug (manifold/collector) are going to be the most challenging, but I've been scared by worse before. if I can get all plugs in tomorrow, then that allows the RTV to fully dry overnight, then on sunday put the starter back on, and get her refilled and on the road!
Honestly, I probably won't RTV the backside, since I only would want these plugs to last ~5 years. For a full rebuild, I would consider using brass. These plugs are actually stainless steel, so I really don't think RTV'ing the backside would be necessary either way...
Randy---I saw the pic of that tool. Nice, I like the offset it has. I have a bearing installer tool that is very similar, but is straight. I plan to use that. For the plugs that are going to be slight b*iatches, then I plan to just tap them around in a circle to work them in. Working slow and cautious with this will allow a successful job, even without that tool.
Dirty ass job, for sure.
If your seriously concerned install a Gano Filter.... I have one that I've installed in every fresh engine that I've done for the past twenty plus years.... I install it & run the car for a few weeks till the filter stays clean then I drain the coolant down & install the new upper hose.... Some engines stay clean, I've had others that I had to take the filter off & clean it out 3-4 times before the crap stopped moving through the cooling system...
https://www.amazon.com/Scott-Drake-ACC-GANO-8-Radiator-Coolant/dp/B00FGSN7Q0
I assume that gets installed inside of the spring in the bottom hose? Good idea.
EDIT: no, it goes in the upper hose. Makes sense.
Perhaps not a bad idea. Maybe I'll just chance it and spend another hour flushing the piss out of it. Good idea, though.
I've decided to wear my swim soon tomorrow. Rusty water is fun to bathe in.
Goes in the top hose, cut the hose & clamp both ends.... Water enters the radiator from the top.... Why do you think theres a spring in the bottom hose? Cause the water pump draws water through the bottom hose & pushes it through the engine..
Drivers side done.
This is a shitty job.
Much easier with a lift...
Passengers side done.
Some plugs aren't pretty, but they are in.
Letting it sit overnight before filling up.
Would be interesting to measure how much I'm leaking after this 8 hour job!
Rule of thumb: if you can pop out the old plugs, then you can install the new ones. It just may not be pretty. :)
Congrats , That should buy you some time , I would look for a 87-92 360 roller block &work on slowly building that up to replace this down the road , try to get the 308 swirl heads also :bigthumb:
This baby is staying a 340....
So far, so good. Started to get an oil drip more than usual. I found that the oil pan was snug, but not tight. Maybe 5-7ft lbs at best on average. Snugged then all to 15ft lbs.
Not a damn sign of coolant in 3 hours.
:clapping:Yee-haw!
LEAK. COME ON. LEAK!
4 hours so far.
I highly doubt I solved 100% of it....
After 4.5 hours, I get one drop of coolant. This time, no oil mixed. Yep, rear freeze plug. It's a pretty slow leak that will bide me time.
No doubt the sinister leak is solved. Well worth time and effort!
I would think about a 7-lbs radiator cap. :alan2cents:
24 hours later. At least it's dripping from one spot now, bell housing.
Rear main and rear plugs!
Man: That would p%*^ me off.
I remember backing the orange Challenger out of the garage and spotting a drop of oil on the floor from the valve cover a couple of years ago. Told my wife we were taking the Coronet instead and drove the sunofagun right back in and had to tear it apart and fix it before I would drive it.
69 hours.
It's bad, but it isn't terrible is my take....improved.
In-fact, I was pretty successful in reducing the amount of coolant. There appears to be just as much oil as coolant.
This is exactly where I anticipated the repair being. Manageable.
Bought some time at least .
Glad to hear you are enjoying your ride and not letting these leaks drive you nuts. now that you've spent so much time on the leaks you're going to have to drive the car a bunch to get back to your 98% driving ratio.