E-Bodies.org Cuda Challenger Forum

I have a question. :thinking:
The 1970 Hemi and AAR Cudas should have front fenders with a factory rolled lip. like part #3579378
Say you ordered a Std 318 Barracuda, or 383 Cuda in 1970 and checked off the 15" wheel option.
Did they just stick a set 15" wheels on the car during assembly and call it good? :ohyeah:
Or did they automatically see that during assembly  :stop: and in turn install the larger radius or rolled lip Hemi and AAR fenders on the car? :notsure:
In other words, is it possible to get a set of Hemi or AAR fenders off a parts car that was simply ordered with the 15" wheels as an option?
And if so, i'm guessing that it would also be possible to tell if a car had 15" wheels from the factory.
Even if you have no build sheet by looking to see if it has the rolled lip on the original paint front fenders?

I think it was because of the weight of the Hemi engine that they needed to roll the fenders.  :notsure:  And because the T/A & AAR was a road racing car they might have thought it needed it too.  The Hemi's also got an extra plate added to the bump stop to restrict the suspension from hitting the fender.

ok, so what you are saying is it is possible to have a car with std front fenders, and have a build sheet showing it was ordered and came with factory 15" wheels when bought new?
In other words, the rolled lip 15" front fenders were exclusive to only AAR and Hemi Cudas?
I have not looked on my latest project 383 Cuda yet, but will check and let you know what I find.
I guess the two crimps on the lip and folded lip on top of opening are the only difference and way to tell them apart?

I think it was a cheap and quick solution to a problem that came up after they had already started to produce and built Hemi's.  The heavy weight of the Hemi engine might have started to rub the fenders when cornering and the easiest solution was to roll the lips.  That would be my guess.

in the early design stages for AAR: H60-15 tires on a 15x8" wheel at all 4 corners was proposed
- if this became reality an AAR or "TRANS AM" fender would've been required

while there are AARs with factory rolled lip "HEMI" fenders, they are NOT required for tire clearance with the E60-15 / 15x7.0" front tire/wheel combination

I have a rolled lip Challenger fender I bought new around 1980 thinking at the time it was correct for my T/A.

CudaTime, to expand on Cody and Dan's replies in answer to your question, 15" wheels alone did NOT get you rolled fenders from the factory.  For all E-bodies other than Hemis, the largest (front) tire size you could receive with 15" wheels were E60-15s.  As Dan said, with E60-15s there was no tire interference.  On the E-bodies, this interference issue only came with the Hemi-specific F60-15s, which surely became more of an issue with this larger tire combined with the extra weight of the Hemi.

None of the very early 1970 E-bodies had rolled fenders, and all 'Cudas and R/Ts (including Hemis) came with wheel opening mouldings as standard.   As the story goes (from what I've heard), in about October 1969 timeframe the wife of a Chrysler executive was driving a Hemicuda and turned into a driveway.  The car jounced, and the lady heard a thud.  The Chrysler team took a look, and noticed that the Hemi-specific F60-15 tire had hit the upper lip of the front fender.  Anyway, supposedly that's when Chrysler first learned of this issue, which was while E-body production was already underway.  As a quick fix, from around November through January Chrysler began crudely rolling the fenders on Hemi E-bodies, and also notched out the top of the wheel opening mouldings.  Then, by around late-January 1970, Chrysler apparently had enough of trimming of mouldings, and simply eliminated them altogether for all Hemi E-bodies.  The rolled fenders remained, just no more wheel opening mouldings.  Being Chrysler, of course some of these later Hemi E-bodies may have been built with these wheel mouldings by mistake, and some later Hemi E-bodies may have been built with un-rolled fenders by mistake, but starting from SPD Feb-1970, I have not seen any late '70 or any '71 Hemi E-body at all that was coded for wheel opening mouldings, and all should have had rolled fenders.

- Wade

I always thought it was a myth that AAR's got them ?

That is the answer I was looking for.
This lets me know I would be wasting my time looking on my Oct build 1970 BS23 car.
I have not pulled the door panels off, or the top half of the back seat. But still have no build sheet located.  :fingerscrossed:
I was wondering if there is any possible way it had came with 15" wheels, and if so I could possibly poke around a little and tell.
Hopefully I will find a sheet, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
It had mice and pack rats living in it. I am convinced that even if it did have one, I am almost certain it would have been shredded and used for nesting material at this point.   :verymad:
Thank you Wade :handshake:

My AAR still has the original fenders and they aren't rolled.

got fender tag?  clues to wheel tire combos

what is the combo of your car?  ENGINE/TRANSMISSION/REAR AXLE RATIO?
red brake drums?
original transmission?  what pinion gear?
original lower control arm bumpers will have a spacer under them on 15" wheel cars

Its a D21, BS23, N0B car. Fairly early build A06
Has original 3.23 Sure Grip still in it.
It has plain Dog Dish style steel wheels on it with no caps. (not sure if original) Doubtful.
There is nothing on the fender tag about the rear gear, sure grip or wheels etc.
Not really much on the tag, I will post a picture of it.

Ill have to look for paint on drums, it has steel wheels on it so you cant see anything, i will pull them and look.
Here is the tag, which is kinda basic to me and dont mention rear or wheels etc.

Oops, Here it is.

I seem to remember reading some posts on Moparts years ago about the wheel opening moldings.  It was said that ALL Hemi cars got the moldings while traveling down the production line.  Deleting the moldings on certain cars wasn't feasible.  Any deviation from normal procedure caused problems.  The Hemi cars were delivered to another facility and the moldings were removed at that point.  Someone who actually worked there and modified the fenders was in on the thread I believe.  :dunno:  So, a Hemi car should have all the holes in the lip from the moldings being initially installed and then removed. 

Someone with more knowledge should confirm or deny this.

No problem CudaTime, glad to help.  And congrats on the cool car!  I had one other thought.  If you still have your original spare that might give you a clue.  If I'm not mistaken (please correct me if I'm wrong), if your original spare is 14" then you must have received 14" tires from the get-go.  If you had a space-saver then I don't think it's clear, because on E-bodies I think the space saver was standard with most (all?) 15" tires but still optional on 14" tires.  Anyway, if you have your original spare that might help.  And I'm still crossing my fingers that you'll find a sheet.

Burdar, I seem to remember that Moparts thread as well, but I don't remember the details.  But I'm positive that wheel opening mouldings were deleted from Hemi E-bodies starting from ~SPD Feb-1970.  Referring to code "M26" on the broadcast sheets (not a fender tag item, only on the sheet), you'll find that all Hemi E-bodies up through Jan-1970 will have this M26 option coded.  But every later 1970, and every single 1971, Hemi E-body sheet I've seen does NOT have this option coded.  So I'm comfortable in saying that every Hemi E-body after this date won't have mounting holes in the fenders, assuming the line workers assembled these cars correctly.  As for when and where the fenders were rolled, either on the earlier cars (~Nov-Feb 1970 timeframe) or later cars (from ~March 1970 onwards, meaning after the "Hemi Fender" tag was introduced) is unclear to me.  I have my own opinions as to when/where this would have been done, but I really don't know so this would just be my opinion.  As for the trimming of the wheel opening mouldings during the ~Nov-Jan 1970 timeframe, I'm sure you're exactly right that this deviation procedure caused problems, which almost certainly led to the decision of deleting them altogether from the broadcast sheets of future Hemi Ebodies.

- Wade

Certainly glad to have you on board here wade  :worship: :drinkingbud:

spare tire is long gone.
I am going to go and pull one of the steel wheels off, look for paint traces.
Then look at the snubbers on lower control arms as well.
This should tell me definitively if it had 15" wheels.
So is it common or even possible for the wheel option, and 3.23 sure grip to not be present on fender tag?
was it later that they started adding them?   :thinking:

Wheel options were never on a fender tag. The gear ratio would be, but not 3:23's  :alan2cents:

axle package would be on a fender tag (A36 3.55s or A31 3.91s) all other combinations wouldn't be

the November - January time frame hand "rolled" HEMI fenders are rumored to have been done at Creative Industries and the survival of wheel lip mouldings varied on a car to car basis

@Cudino (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/cudino_194) good call on the "spare"  @CudaTime (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/cudatime_494)  is your spare tire mounting stud still installed in the trunk?  it was mounted in a different position full-size VS. space-saver spare
space-saver spare was a MANDATORY OPTION  :bigmoney: on e-bodies with 15" tires

approximately 20% of 383 'cudas had E60-15 tires