I have a 2 car detached steel garage building I need to insulate and sheetrock so I can heat this winter and since th ewalls are thin, only 2 1/2" steel rectangle tubing I`m thinking foam will give me a better R value than fiberglass. Is foam a good idea and has anyone used a DIY kit, how easy was it?
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Dow-FROTH-PAK-620-Sealant-Foam-Insulation-Kit/999972978
I used it in a few walls in my home when I was remodeling. I feel its better insulation when you are dealing with just 2 1/2 " . I have 2x4 walls and wanted more then just r12. I used a kit very similar to the kit you show. As far as easy goes? yes very easy . Just cover the floors !
It's not the R-value that is important here. Spray foam is a air flow sealer , that stops heat escaping from inside the building. If you use regular insulation you will need a vapor barrier. Spray foam may be more $$$, but for better results
That seems pretty expensive to do an entire building. Garage doors are a big part of your building with low R value to start with. Same if you have any windows. I would look at payback. You may save some money in heating, but I'd guess payback is 10+ years for this spray foam. May be better to use the foam in cans to seal any gaps and then just use regular fiberglass or the white backed rolls. The white backed on the ceiling will make it brighter inside.
I just completed a 6000 sq.ft. home. I spray foamed the entire roof. Against the plywood and against the gables.
I pulled an R 60 out of the roof. My walls are R55 made of I.C.F. 42' tall.
The Foam is by far the best option you have on the market for both sealing the property and holding your heat and cold.
In the Summer the cool gain is amazing. It will typically keep a 60* interior. Actually it tends to keep that temp in the cold winter as well.
I use spray foam on any 2x4 walled remodel I ever touch. We aren't allowed 2x4 walls any more so when I do a 2x6 wall what i use is a Hybrid system.
The walls get sprayed with foam 4" thick. Then we bib the interior side of the stud bay and install spun glass on top of the foam.
This gives an incredible R value for a 2x6 wall.
On metal buildings, Spray foam is the way to go. But let me say that in my opinion of using foams for 20 plus years, hire a professional. You will get better coverage It will be done quicker. it will cost you a little extra.
Another thing to consider is that you would want to use closed cell foam and not open cell foam. Open cell foam can hold moisture as well as let moisture pass through the cells. Not suggested for a garage or anything that is going to have any moisture. The closed cell will also seal up the roof so if a water leak starts, it can only get to the foam. will not pass through.
The 6K sq.ft. home I just built cost 36 thousand for the insulation package. Well worth it.
Just wondering out loud.... what about fire rating? In a garage I'd expect welding, grinding sparks etc... The other thought that crosses my mind is in 20 years or whatever are they going to find out it's a health hazard like asbestos was/is? Then costing big bucks to get rid of it? Again I have zero experience, just asking/thinking out loud? :alan2cents:
Rodents don't like foam, but they love fiberglass mat insulation. :alan2cents:
I think this stuff is the way to go too.
Doesn't burn. Will melt but doesn't ignite.
There is a lot of debate about off gassing. Talk to all the reps and they say, NO. there is no off gassing. It's not that big a deal.
Same thing comes from the reps of I.C.F. blocks. Foxblock and nudura are what I use.
Rodents do not like it at all.
Moisture resistant, fire resistant, rodent resistant.
It will make your garage too tight. I have this problem on homes I build. Have to put in an HRV system typically. But a window that will open is all you need in a garage.
couple pics of the foam in the attic.
Behind the hand scalloped post you can see the hybrid system on the ceiling. 9" of foam and 3" of woven glass.
Also see the standard insulation in the walls and fireproof insulation on the fireplace.
Sorry if these pics are boring and kind of not what your talking about but they all go together in the insulation talk.
Walls and ceiling will be sheetrocked after insulation so no worry about sparks
So far I have one estimate around $2500 which is why I figured I could do it myself.
Well worth having them do it. Big differences between diy and pros.
The pros will show up with a trailer and 50 gallon barrels of the mixes. They will use a hose that costs in the 10K range.
The diy stuff is in a container. Doesn't cover as much as they say, Will have improper mixes. And is a pain to work with. I've done it both ways and I try to do as much stuff as I can as I am the general and it saves me and my clients money.
But with this one, let the pros do it. :alan2cents: :alan2cents:
Quote from: cuda hunter on September 30, 2018, 11:33:33 AM
Sorry if these pics are boring
I love the pictures of what you build.... I really wanted to build my own home & was looking at plans & lots, put a few offers in, all the while talking it over with momma, unfortunately it became pretty clear she doesn't have the adventurous streak that would allow it... She's low risk which honestly at this point in our lives isn't a bad thing.... On the other side I know what we could have & really wish we would have taken the plunge...
Ha, ha: I have exactly the same issue. I'd love to buy 20 acres and mostly build my own home (of course with help from a few trades) but momma just sees what is in front of her, not what could be.
Quote from: torredcuda on September 30, 2018, 04:21:03 AM
I have a 2 car detached steel garage building I need to insulate and sheetrock so I can heat this winter and since th ewalls are thin, only 2 1/2" steel rectangle tubing I`m thinking foam will give me a better R value than fiberglass. Is foam a good idea and has anyone used a DIY kit, how easy was it?
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Dow-FROTH-PAK-620-Sealant-Foam-Insulation-Kit/999972978
I've used this exact froth pack. I pay 250.00 as I recall. Same size bottles. Typically this really doesn't cover a lot of space.
Really, it doesn't cover near as much as you would like to think it does.
I had to fill 32' x 12" and it took me a full set up. And I still filled some air space with fiberglass.
720.00 plus tax just doesn't add up. this is a Homer type thing unless it is being used as a supplemental fill in after you have the main job done with the professionals. You go back in and fill the few places that those guys miss. And they will miss some as both process's are quite stressful. It's a start it and don't stop thing. don't take breaks don't answer the phone. Spray and don't stop spraying until either the cans are exhausted or the job is complete.
Then you have the temperature issue. You really have to be careful with the froth cans and temp as they just don't work as well when it's cold and the foam doesn't rise as much as you would like it to when it's cold.
Typically I will advise a Homer to do most jobs themselves if money savings is the main key. But with certain things I always suggest spending the extra money. Spray foam is one of those things. Stick with the pros.
If you decide to do foam either way, you need to mask off everything. And when I say everything, I mean mask off the masking. This is a high pressure situation and it will get foam on anything that is not covered. Anything and everything.
I actually need a froth pack for a bathroom remodel in my own home. I'll try to remember to list the price I get a froth pack for when I get it.
Quote from: 1 Wild R/T on September 30, 2018, 02:23:14 PM
Quote from: cuda hunter on September 30, 2018, 11:33:33 AM
Sorry if these pics are boring
I love the pictures of what you build.... I really wanted to build my own home & was looking at plans & lots, put a few offers in, all the while talking it over with momma, unfortunately it became pretty clear she doesn't have the adventurous streak that would allow it... She's low risk which honestly at this point in our lives isn't a bad thing.... On the other side I know what we could have & really wish we would have taken the plunge...
Well, my wife is very similar. However after building houses for people for 25 years I'm finally taking the jump and building my own home. I'm doing the 10 year plan. Build in one year, live in for one year, sell the third year. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Until I own the home.
It's hard to get the better halves involved and agreeing but when it's all said and done it usually works out for the better.
I obviously can talk your ear off about any type of residential building. If you have any questions feel free to ask.
For those of you that think it's rodent proof you're dead wrong. I built a livestock barn years back and sprayed the inside. We left the walls open, the theory being that an open wall would discourage rodents. WRONG! They tunneled through the foam like it was the only thing they were born for.
During install does the foam expand causing drywall fitment issues ?
Quote from: blown motor on September 30, 2018, 06:34:38 PM
For those of you that think it's rodent proof you're dead wrong. I built a livestock barn years back and sprayed the inside. We left the walls open, the theory being that an open wall would discourage rodents. WRONG! They tunneled through the foam like it was the only thing they were born for.
Have not seen that before. Sounds appropriate though. Was it closed cell or open cell?
Quote from: Racer57 on September 30, 2018, 07:00:09 PM
During install does the foam expand causing drywall fitment issues ?
This is one of the reasons for a hybrid system. In a 2x6 wall (5.5") you would spray 4" of foam then fill the rest of the cavity with woven glass inside of a bib system.
If you look at the sideways picture past the hand hewn post you will notice the light blue on the ceiling. This is a white see through bib that is holding Woven Glass on top of the foam. That's a 2x12 ceiling so it has 11.5" to fill. We filled it with closed cell foam to 9" and bibbed the remaining 2.5".
I have seen the open cell foam in homes where they spray it in and it expands past the studs then they cut it off. tons of waste. I have not done this. Except some steel beams where I cut off the closed cell just after solidifying but not hardened yet.
No, the foam does not expand past the studs. Typically you would spray 1.25" on the plywood and it will expand to 4". There is a very specific thickness that gets sprayed on each pass and it's typically 1" that will expand to 3". Then recoat after solidifying if thicker foam and more R value is needed.
Woven Glass is far superior to fiberglass. First off it doesn't itch. Secondly it's much easier to get out of the eyes.
Third the glass is guaranteed to not settle over 30 years and retain it's original form immediately after blow in. I would say it's better than any other blow in product on the market.
My wife and I built our home as owner builders. All steel except for the door frames. Windows are vinyl. We spray foamed everything for insulation. As mentioned before this means absolutely no air leaks, no drafts. It was sealed so we'll we had to add a specialized fresh air draw for the air-conditioning system like they use in commercial systems. We also sprayed the underside of the roof. There is no insulation on top of the ceiling. Even here in Florida our utility bills are very low. The most important thing I learned about foam is ... Run lots of wire before you spray. I ran everything I could think of even if I wasn't sure if I would ever need it. THANK GOODNESS we did that. Once you get everything installed, foamed and sheetrock up it is really hard to add wire. You might consider running some conduit for future projects. Just a thought. :bricks: :banana:
Quote from: ToxicWolf on September 30, 2018, 08:28:29 PM
The most important thing I learned about foam is ... Run lots of wire before you spray.
Man isn't that the truth! It is very difficult for remodels later.
Listen to cuda hunter on this one. This is NOT a DIY project on a big job like yours. Temp makes a big difference. Once you start, don't stop. You will have the biggest mess you ever seen and you will hire a pro to fix your mess!!! I have a tenant in the Air Force who wanted to get into spray foam after he retired so he bought all the equipment. It's a high dollar professional rig and very complicated to run. It takes lots of practice to learn. He wanted a place to practice on. He offered to spray my building for cost. I have an old solid brick building with a modern R panel flat roof. It was impossible to heat or cool in Texas. As a beginner, he had losts of problems with the things cuda hunter mentioned. He finally got it looking ok at the end. It is not real smooth, but neither were the walls in the first place. I'm satisfied though. It would have cost me $6000 instead of $1700. Those barrels do not go as far as you think. I used the closed cell because it's not covered up. It made a big difference in heating and cooling. I have one of those mini splits about 2.5 tons in a 25 X 50 building. It takes about an hour to bring it to a temp you can work in comfortably. The garage door is insulated but that is where you lose your heat and air con the most. Bottom line is PAY A PRO.
Quote from: cuda hunter on September 30, 2018, 07:41:30 PM
Quote from: blown motor on September 30, 2018, 06:34:38 PM
For those of you that think it's rodent proof you're dead wrong. I built a livestock barn years back and sprayed the inside. We left the walls open, the theory being that an open wall would discourage rodents. WRONG! They tunneled through the foam like it was the only thing they were born for.
Have not seen that before. Sounds appropriate though. Was it closed cell or open cell?
I'm not sure cuda hunter. This in the mid 80s. Maybe the product is different now. As I recall I was seeing rodent damage within two years.
I just got back from my buddy's cottage and the chipmunks. mice and red squirrels in the Muskoka's seem to have also developed a taste for professionally sprayed foam, especially in new cottage roofs! They have less of a taste for lead, but we're working on that. :))