I recently redid the timing on the challenger and noticed its a bit unsteady at idle. New plugs and wires look decent so i suspect the brain box and/or the distributor. I also bumped the initial to 10 degrees and total came it right at 34. I know she probably can handle some more initial but am limited now due to the current stock reman distributor. So now i am considering getting a complete digital ECU/Coil/Distributor package from either Rev-N-Ator or the HRR688 package from FBO.
Ive used some of Don's (FBO) earlier Ignition items before on my 71 383 Super Bee and was very pleased with it but i've also heard some good things about the Rev N Ator. Have any of you had experience either way?
Both have rev limiters.
FBO is solid state electronics.
Rev N Nator is still using transistors like a copy of the OEM units have inside.
I still have the FBO plate for sale if you're interested.
Run the 12V coil system and Firecore80 wires and you'll be good to go.
BTW,
People must acknowledge this if using FBO ECU...
DO NOT use any MSD Blaster, Accell or parts store Coil, they are incorrect for the Micro-Processor Type FBO Ignition Box and will not perform correctly and could damage the ECU. The Processor has been programmed to maximize output to the Flamethrower 40011 coil.
No other coil that we have tested will perform as well as the Pertronix 40011. The processor program is burned to match that coil. (We burn our programming to the processor in house)
Bought the complete ignition setup from FBO 2 years ago.
FBO ECU, distributor that was custom tuned for my engine combo, Flamethrower coil and ballast bypass wire.
Mounted the ECU in the stock location.
Everything has performed perfectly. :twothumbsup:
It appears the new distributors from FBO are similar to Firecore's?
I bought a Rev-N-Ator four or five years ago and use it with a Blaster 2 coil as recommended. Car starts great and runs great but I have little experience with this stuff and really nothing to compare it to. I wouldn't be afraid to buy another one for my next car.
If you guys bought the stuff more than 2 months ago and the cars are still running it proves they are better than even the current MP chrome boxes.
Quote from: Topcat on October 20, 2018, 12:10:11 PM
FBO is solid state electronics.
Rev N Nator is still using transistors like a copy of the OEM units have inside.
Just nit-picking..transistors are solid state devices...
:D
Quote from: dodj on October 21, 2018, 05:52:35 PM
Quote from: Topcat on October 20, 2018, 12:10:11 PM
FBO is solid state electronics.
Rev N Nator is still using transistors like a copy of the OEM units have inside.
Just nit-picking..transistors are solid state devices...
:D
O.K. re clarified...PC board electronics vs. soldered/crimped connections. ::)
:rofl: I'm still running ma's dizzy and orange box..... :rubeyes:
Thanks for the input.
Don't get me wrong. The car runs and starts good with the stock setup and my recent tuneup. Adding those 5 degrees of initial really cleaned up the idle and way more responsive on the throttle. I just know from experience that there is more to be had in the distributor tuning and when the light is on i can watch the mark dance a little which I'm assuming the box or the distributor itself is not as fresh as intended.
I can tell the distributor is a reman and the box is a stock black box from chrysler. My guess its a replacement from the 80's or so but not sure. it has the numbers 4111850 over 1 over 1046 stamped on the face with the pentastar.
I attached a photo of the box. It may need to be rotated.
The historical input is really nice to have here. I'm glad to hear that some have used either for a few years with good results. From a distributor replacement standpoint it sounds like either are very comparable.
I've used the Rev-N-Nator and like it. It's nice because it has an adjustable RMP limiter. But I've heard good things about FBO too.
That's an old ECU. I find it amazing that stuff from the 70's still works and yet the new MP stuff lasts for days.
It had too , they were installing 1000s / day now they are just made in small batches , not everything new is better
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on October 22, 2018, 06:30:04 PM
That's an old ECU. I find it amazing that stuff from the 70's still works and yet the new MP stuff lasts for days.
Because all the crap is coming out of China.
And TDGAF!...About QC. :alan2cents:
Quote from: Topcat on October 22, 2018, 07:36:24 PM
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on October 22, 2018, 06:30:04 PM
That's an old ECU. I find it amazing that stuff from the 70's still works and yet the new MP stuff lasts for days.
Because all the crap is coming out of China.
And TDGAF!...About QC. :alan2cents:
:iagree:Well said!!!
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on October 22, 2018, 06:30:04 PM
That's an old ECU. I find it amazing that stuff from the 70's still works and yet the new MP stuff lasts for days.
PC boards and power don't mix well. Wires and solid connections are better.
Wow that doesn't make any sense at all. :notsure: :looney:
99% of everything being made now using any power is solid state PC board.
Are you still in the 70's? :bye: :haha:
Hi TopCat!
The R/T Garage here! The Rev N Nator inventors/makers. :)
FBO has been spreading incorrect information on social media, as well as posting incorrect information on his website.
Legalities had them remove the incorrect information.
We are nothing like the original boxes...although, we are flattered that you think so, as our goal was to keep our box looking factory correct appearing!
We are DIGITAL. Not another plug n' play box, like it. Our box converts analog to digital and has many other great functions. But, most importantly the safest rev limiting protection available.
Check our main home page for all the 'correct' information about our rev limiting protection and how our box works, at the rt garage com
We continue to update and keep our box quality number one and most current dependable high tech electronics.
Any questions, let us know...always happy to help.
Nice to get you more familiar with our box
Will be great to connect here with others, with the same passion and love for Cudas!! :bradsthumb:
Information on Rev N Nator ICU might be helpful here: :woohoo:
REV-N-NATOR ICU FACTS :
Ignition Box Type Inductive
Circuitry: Modern Digital using a 32 bit 64K 50 MHz PSoC operating @ 5.00 VDC
Rev Limiter: Yes- Easy to use push button 5000-7,500 RPM 500 RPM Increments Algorithm Type-
Drops out every other cylinder and holds RPM to selected Rev Limit.
Digitally correct Positive Stop Rev Limits Including 3,000 RPM test setting.
Timing Retard: None
Data Acquisition: No
CD Voltage output to Coil: N/A to inductive Ignition Applications
ICU Current Draw: Standby KOEO...22mA
With Ballast Resistor: KOER @ Idle... 1.50 A KOER @ 7,500 RPM... 2.30 A
Wiring Installation: Plug & Play- Stock Mopar Plug and Ballast Resistor. Can run without Ballast Resistor for limited use.
Example: Drag Racing
Minimum Operating Voltage: 4.50 VDC with Ballast Resistor- Spark plug will fire
Maximum Operating Voltage: 18.00 VDC- Internally regulated and protected
Full Load Maximum Output: Up to 40KV @ 7,500 RPM without Ballast Resistor
Spark Output: Not Measured ( millijoules )
Length ( Inches ): OEM box length of 4.125", OEM overall length of 5.500", OEM mounting holes C to C 4.938"
Height ( inches ): OEM Height of 1.125"
Width ( inches ): OEM Width of 3.188"
Shipping Weight: 17 oz
Ignition Box Color: Powder Coated Stamped Steel in 'Performance' Orange or ' Factory' Black ( Internals the same in both colors )
Coil Included: Available as a set with matched HP Coil & Matched Ballast. Also, available as Complete Pkg with performance Distributor or additional- Mopar electronic conversion harness, if needed.
Warranty: 3 year to original Purchaser. 90 day money back guarantee
Manufactured in: Proudly designed and manufactured in the USA :unitedstates:
I have had a Rev N Nator for 5 years with 0 problems.
Quote from: Topcat on October 26, 2018, 12:00:34 AM
Wow that doesn't make any sense at all. :notsure: :looney:
99% of everything being made now using any power is solid state PC board.
Are you still in the 70's? :bye: :haha:
No, they are not. Pc boards are not capable of any significant power at all. They are good at signals, but not power.
For power, you need wires and good old crimp type connections.
I do it for living...pc boards do not handle power, they handle signals.. ...wires handle power. Regardless of the decade.....
6-12 V doesn't sound like much power going thru a ECU.
Quote from: Topcat on October 29, 2018, 03:43:31 PM
6-12 V doesn't sound like much power going thru a ECU.
Voltage is only half of the equation.
I have a Rev-n-ator in my Cuda. I had a little issue years ago from their first gen box (#18). I got it all sorted out with a new box, coil, and ballast. I have had no issues with mine since. The R/T Garage is a nice company that went out of their way to help me out and get me fixed up with out a hassle. Quality people and quality product. I love the rev limiter just in case the tires spin up a little too fast. J
Good to deal with honest people :bigthumb:
Love my Rev n Nator too. I did get their coil pkg and separately got the Firecore distributor. Made a huge difference for me. Had it for 3 yrs now, trouble free. Thanks RTGarage.
Want to add that I use the Rev-N-Nator on more than 1 car and it's been really reliable. Love the RPM limiter! :clapping: As great as their ECU box is their customer service is 10,000 times better! I would put the customer service I get from Rev-N-Nator (RT Garage) up there as one of the best in the industry. Top notch quality people. :worship:
Quote from: jordan on October 29, 2018, 04:10:37 PM
I have a Rev-n-ator in my Cuda. I had a little issue years ago from their first gen box (#18). I got it all sorted out with a new box, coil, and ballast. I have had no issues with mine since. The R/T Garage is a nice company that went out of their way to help me out and get me fixed up with out a hassle. Quality people and quality product. I love the rev limiter just in case the tires spin up a little too fast. J
Hi. Do you mind sharing what problem you have with the first gen? I too have the first gen box and I had to add a switch to bypass the electric choke whe cranking in order to start. Once it is running, I can turn on the electric choke. I think it has to do with the voltage and I believe the second gen has lower voltage capability. Other than that, the box works great. Engine speed stable, smooth and responsive when I first got it.
I had some voltage drop on startup that would shut off the ignition with the first gen. I ended up putting a relay to it and changing the battery cable from the trunk to the starter to help with the voltage drop. With the updated and newer ignition, I kept the relay to it even though it tolerates the voltage drop better. I had other issues with it that was eventually fixed by moving my coil on my BB 6bbl to the fender apron. R/T garage did me good the whole way through the issue. Great company to work with. The Rev-n-Nator looks and works great too. I have not had an issue since I figured it out mid last summer.
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on October 22, 2018, 06:30:04 PM
That's an old ECU. I find it amazing that stuff from the 70's still works and yet the new MP stuff lasts for days.
Mine's Mother Mopar's stock 1974 issue box and distributor and it works just fine. :dunno:
Quote from: jimynick on October 30, 2018, 07:45:17 PM
Mine's Mother Mopar's stock 1974 issue box and distributor and it works just fine. :dunno:
Ya but yours didn't run for 35 years. Doesn't count. :pokeeye:
Quote from: dodj on October 29, 2018, 04:02:04 PM
Quote from: Topcat on October 29, 2018, 03:43:31 PM
6-12 V doesn't sound like much power going thru a ECU.
Voltage is only half of the equation.
Our design engineer was kind enough to put this together for us, he designs and builds gasoline and diesel engine control and dyno control systems for a living:
Good discussion, but the "amount of voltage" going to the Rev-N-Nator ignition ECU/ICU needs to be a minimum of 5 VDC to allow the board to function - that's it. All the ignition ECU/ICU (regardless of who made it) does is switch on and off the ignition coil ground (-) dependent upon the trigger from the distributor. The voltage of the power (+) going to the ignition coil is far more critical, which is fed from the battery through the ignition switch through the ballast resistor to the ignition coil (+).
And "power" a board can handle is a relative statement. Sure, large gauge wires handle lots of power, but so can PCBs in relative terms. The coil driver in the Rev-N-Nator is an IGBT which is rated at 51 Amps continuous. Some may think that's a lot, others may think that's not much - it's relative. Worth noting is that while signals on the Rev-N-Nator circuit board operate in the microamp to milliamp range, the IGBT coil driver is soldered directly to the PCB and carries the switched current of the coil (-). Even in very high performance applications the ignition coil draws about 8 to 10 amps maximum, and the heat generated from this operation is dissipated properly through the PCB. This design is common in every ECM, PCM and BCM used in cars and trucks today. There are just more IGBTs and MOSFETs carrying out the operations of switching the ignition coils and fuel injectors. Some may be surprised by this but the TO-3 transistor on the outside of the new Rev-N-Nator is for correct factory appearance, it actually is not soldered to the PCB and serves no electrical function. It is there only to provide the OEM appearance. All components responsible for dwell, switching, rev limiting and ignition coil control are insulated from the case and surface mounted on the internal PCB.
Thanks for posting that RT. I thought the external transistor was actually the IGBT and wired/soldered to the pcb. :cheers:
Could the pcb actually handle that igbt at full capacity? Or was that size decided upon for dependability?
Quote from: dodj on November 04, 2018, 04:34:35 AM
Thanks for posting that RT. I thought the external transistor was actually the IGBT and wired/soldered to the pcb. :cheers:
Could the pcb actually handle that igbt at full capacity? Or was that size decided upon for dependability?
You're very welcome! If you get a chance to look closely at the Rev-N-Nator, the TO-3 transistor is actually a run of the mill power transistor P/N 2N3055...keeps the decoration cost low.
Regarding the PCB IGBT throughput power handling, the PCB can handle a 0.6 Ohm ignition coil without a ballast resistor under continuous use, but the product is not warrantied for that. We require a minimum of 1.5 Ohms total primary resistance, ignition coil and ballast, with the Rev-N-Nator for street use. Without disclosing proprietary design details, there are other more important reasons and advantages for using this particular IGBT, the current handling headroom was insurance, a bonus. In the automotive ignition world, suffice it to say there are flyback voltages that need to be mitigated along with coil ring. If you are familiar with IGBTs, you will know they can clamp quite nicely.
One interesting nugget people may or may not know... A properly selected ballast resistor actually dampens the coil ring (resonance) permeating a car's electrical system. There are applications where using a ballast resistor actually helps versus running without. Probing around with an oscilloscope will reveal a great number of things, some help performance while others hurt it.
UPDATE
After a lot of great discussion and consideration I decided to purchased the Rev-N-Ator system with the Firecore dizzy. I finally got around to installing the box and coil 2 weekends ago. Now with about 750 miles on it which includes a round trip drive to the Nationals from NW Chicago I can say that I am VERY impressed with the system.
I thought I had the car pretty well tuned and running well before! It was a very noticeable difference in idle quality and throttle response with just changing the box and no other adjustments. The original setup was a 70/80's era stock mopar 4 pin ECU with a chrome coil (accell I believe). From starting it up and taking it around the block for the first time I noticed it immediately. Idle was way smoother and it was more snappy on the throttle. Frankly it was pretty cool considering I did nothing else but change the coil and box. I set the rev limiter to 6k which was super easy and it provides a slick light system which tells you the setting and acts as a tach when you're reving it. I will re-tune the carb and likely get a little more out of it but so far I have nothing negative to say.
Timing is 10 initial with total set at 34. The stock distributor has a ton of mechanical in it and I'm sure I can get more initial which is why I opted to get the firecore. But for now I wanted to just see if how the box and coil alone would do. I want to use my current stock distributor to help me pinpoint optimum initial first and then I will tweak the firecore's mechanical advance and drop it in. I expect that will also be a very noticeable improvement.
I wanted to give props where it is deserved. Its become a bit rare to get a high performance part to literally "drop in" and truly provide more performance but this is one of those cases where it absolutely delivers.
Nice job R/T garage! :bradsthumb:
Where did you order the box from? Their website says it's on back order.
Thanks for the review , the Rev-N-Ator is a good product for sure :twothumbsup:
Quote from: 71383bee on August 14, 2019, 12:05:38 PM
UPDATE
After a lot of great discussion and consideration I decided to purchased the Rev-N-Ator system with the Firecore dizzy. I finally got around to installing the box and coil 2 weekends ago. Now with about 750 miles on it which includes a round trip drive to the Nationals from NW Chicago I can say that I am VERY impressed with the system.
I thought I had the car pretty well tuned and running well before! It was a very noticeable difference in idle quality and throttle response with just changing the box and no other adjustments. The original setup was a 70/80's era stock mopar 4 pin ECU with a chrome coil (accell I believe). From starting it up and taking it around the block for the first time I noticed it immediately. Idle was way smoother and it was more snappy on the throttle. Frankly it was pretty cool considering I did nothing else but change the coil and box. I set the rev limiter to 6k which was super easy and it provides a slick light system which tells you the setting and acts as a tach when you're reving it. I will re-tune the carb and likely get a little more out of it but so far I have nothing negative to say.
Timing is 10 initial with total set at 34. The stock distributor has a ton of mechanical in it and I'm sure I can get more initial which is why I opted to get the firecore. But for now I wanted to just see if how the box and coil alone would do. I want to use my current stock distributor to help me pinpoint optimum initial first and then I will tweak the firecore's mechanical advance and drop it in. I expect that will also be a very noticeable improvement.
I wanted to give props where it is deserved. Its become a bit rare to get a high performance part to literally "drop in" and truly provide more performance but this is one of those cases where it absolutely delivers.
Nice job R/T garage! :bradsthumb:
I did the exact same by dropping in the new box, coil, with addition of the Firecore. My results are exactly as you described.
Anyone have any experience in longevity with these boxes?
Quote from: edison1970 on August 14, 2019, 06:43:21 PM
Where did you order the box from? Their website says it's on back order.
I ordered through them. Emailed and then followed up with a call. They were super nice. but my setup was on backorder for about a month. I was not in a super hurry so it was no big deal. They offered to ship the dizzy out right away as they had it in stock but i opted for it all to come at once. Id say the process between ordering and receiving was about 6 to 8 weeks. I ordered it back in March.
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on August 15, 2019, 07:05:08 AM
Anyone have any experience in longevity with these boxes?
Good question. That's why i brought the original coil and box with me on my trip to/from the nats. No problems on that. both trips were about 7-8 hours of constant driving each way and had no issues.
Also worth noting that I am running stone stock 73 ignition wiring setup with the 4 prong ballast resistor and stock style plug wires. I got their 2 prong ballast resistor just in case but so far it works fine on the stock style 4 prong.
Nice!
I had the same experience when I changed from a chrome box to an msd 6a. Better idle and stronger 'off the line' grunt.
Ignition systems have come a long way since the early 70''s original mopar design. :alan2cents:
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on August 15, 2019, 07:05:08 AM
Anyone have any experience in longevity with these boxes?
I put a Rev-N-Nator box on with a Blaster II coil about 4 or 5 years ago on my 340. I put on 2-3000 miles a year. It's been flawless.
Quote from: dodj on October 29, 2018, 03:14:02 PM
Quote from: Topcat on October 26, 2018, 12:00:34 AM
Wow that doesn't make any sense at all. :notsure: :looney:
99% of everything being made now using any power is solid state PC board.
Are you still in the 70's? :bye: :haha:
No, they are not. Pc boards are not capable of any significant power at all. They are good at signals, but not power.
For power, you need wires and good old crimp type connections.
I do it for living...pc boards do not handle power, they handle signals.. ...wires handle power. Regardless of the decade.....
I know this is a bit old but ........What do you consider "significant power"? I have a product my company makes sitting on my desk that has an output of three phase 150 Amps continuous, 312 Amps peak at 480 Vrms all fed by a 680 VDC bus supply. All that is going through a single multi-layer PCBA and this product is relatively small in comparison to some of the cabinet size stuff we make. Would you consider that significant?
gzig, lol
Ya, I would call that significant, but I have never seen such a beast. Everything I deal with from variable frequency drives, plc's, power distribution of large factories and cities, I have never seen a pcb that could carry anywhere close to what you are saying. Once you start dealing with power you generally move to stand alone semi-conductors and buss bar.
Just curious, why would you want to put 150 amps through a pcb? Pcb's are generally fragile compared to wiring/cabling in my experience.
The point I was making re, the CPU, is that just because it uses a pcb doesn't automatically make it better.
@gzig5 (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/gzig5_1624)
Can I ask what kind of device's you make? Always willing to learn.
I work for a large industrial automation company that does everything from push buttons and click-clack stuff up through PLCs, HMIs, VFDs, Servos, Motors, and Software. If you are familiar with the industry it should be too hard to figure out based on my location in SE Wisconsin. I'm in the motion control division. We use PCBs in our products because they are much more efficient for production and give a more consistent result unit to unit because the trace impedance can be controlled and/or manipulated. Also, there is far less human interaction, which improves quality overall. Yes, at some point the pcb loses its efficiency in this regard and you need to got to buss bars and such, but we have drives from 200W up to 115kW and all of them have a multilayered power board. When you are shipping several thousand products a month you can't be bolting individual parts together and soldering/crimping wires, it takes too long. At some point the components get too big to solder reliably and we rely on other assembly techniques and the occasional fastener to make it work. We're probably at the limit of the technology now for current/voltage capacity, but who knows.
Back to the original topic, I would rather see a PCBA in the box than a hand bread-boarded assembly because I know that if they got the original design right, every product produced after that will be essentially identical and easier to control variables that affect quality. This is easily accomplished at the power levels or our car's ignition controls.
Thank You :thankyou: for your supporting our U.S. made mopar specific Rev N Nator ECU!
Glad you are enjoying the benefits of your Rev box!
Happy to help with any questions. :)
Hi Topcat, here is correct info on Rev N Nator ECU. It is digital, converting analog to digital.
Hope this helps having the facts :cooldance:
REV-N-NATOR ECU FACTS :
Ignition Box Type Inductive
Circuitry: Modern Digital using a 32 bit 64K 50 MHz PSoC operating @ 5.00 VDC
Rev Limiter: Yes- Easy to use push button 5000-7,500 RPM 500 RPM Increments Algorithm Type- Drops out every other cylinder and holds RPM to selected Rev Limit. 7
Digitally correct Positive Stop Rev Limits Including 3,000 RPM test setting.
Timing Retard: None
Data Acquisition: No
CD Voltage output to Coil: N/A to inductive Ignition Applications
ICU Current Draw: Standby KOEO...22mA
With Ballast Resistor: KOER @ Idle... 1.50 A KOER @ 7,500 RPM... 2.30 A
Wiring Installation: Plug & Play- Stock Mopar Plug and Ballast Resistor. Can run without Ballast Resistor for limited use.
Example: Drag Racing
Minimum Operating Voltage: 4.50 VDC with Ballast Resistor- Spark plug will fire
Maximum Operating Voltage: 18.00 VDC- Internally regulated and protected
Full Load Maximum Output: Up to 40KV @ 7,500 RPM without Ballast Resistor
Spark Output: Not Measured ( millijoules )
Length ( Inches ): OEM box length of 4.125", OEM overall length of 5.500", OEM mounting holes C to C 4.938"
Height ( inches ): OEM Height of 1.125"
Width ( inches ): OEM Width of 3.188"
Shipping Weight: 17 oz
Made in USA :unitedstates:
Ma Mopar box, is great to have on hand, but many engines were over revved back in the day! And this applies to any stock street motor as well as a hot rod car.It was the reason we came out with The Rev N Nator for Mopar fanatics. To still have that old school look, but rev limiting protection and wake up the motor as well. We like having the protection and being stealthy at the same time. 8)
Not the Rev N Nator Ignition!
Made right here in Minnesota...USA :unitedstates:
The Ma Mopar boxes made currently are junk, all of them. I would not buy one.
Quote from: rtgarage01 on August 16, 2019, 03:12:11 PM
Thank You :thankyou: for your supporting our U.S. made mopar specific Rev N Nator ECU!
Glad you are enjoying the benefits of your Rev box!
Happy to help with any questions. :)
Your website indicates that it is currently unavailable. When do you expect to have them in stock again?
I wouldn't be in a hurry if I were you. First, you should check everything, including the brain box. Try using a diagnostic tool (the main thing is that it is not a cheap replica with evilbay). After that, you will be able to make accurate conclusions about what you should repair, As well as perhaps you will help rewire the brains, some of it also helped. Judging by the comparison with the site
cararac.com/ (https://cararac.com/comparison/) this model doesn't have the best brains, so that may be the problem. The most important thing is that you do not use unreliable and unpopular firmware, as in this case you can only make it worse. I hope you can solve your problem, good luck!