With the announcement of the Hellephant crate engine with 1000 hp and 950 ft/lb tq, I was thinking about dropping one in my '68 Charger. Beyond whatever the cost of the engine, harness, and front end is from Mopar you still have headers, maybe a tubular k-member, and engine mounts just to wedge this monster in the car. Then I was thinking that I would have to replace the rest of my drivetrain to handle 1000 hp. So now its a new transmission, driveshaft, new Dana with stout axels. I have subframe connectors so that will help but may need inner fender and radiator supports. I'm guessing a total of $50k minimum.
I'm left with is this magnificent engine even feasible? And is there such a thing as TOO MUCH hp for a street car? And if so, what is the limit? :thinking:
You could make your tire choice act as the " fuse" ? HP/Torque is somewhat irrelevant if you can't get it to the ground?
Not for everyone for sure. That's a lot of power for a street car. :thinking:
It's cool, but unrealistic. Unless you're doing heavy highway pulls, you only need as much driveline as you have traction...which will be a problem at practical speeds.
I think a standard hellcat engine walks the line of practicality for a street car. 1,000hp is just silly.
What trans can even handle that much power? It's crazy how much HP that is.
Quote from: Brads70 on October 31, 2018, 06:55:37 PM
You could make your tire choice act as the " fuse" ? HP/Torque is somewhat irrelevant if you can't get it to the ground?
Good point. That concept is lowered, longer wheel base, completely different suspension and more aerodynamic than a real '68. Not to mention all the safety features built into a modern car.
Unless your running it at the track. Then add all the stuff you need for that. Roll cage etc.
19 grand? :rubeyes:
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/pictures/hellephant-426-mopar-crate-hemi-demon-sema/6/?fbclid=IwAR2wNOTr2p6Maxzlq4tk7HZr5mEyREm96s6K_e1NwyeUZgnro0-p9I3UNds
Quote from: Cuda Cody on October 31, 2018, 07:18:34 PM
What trans can even handle that much power? It's crazy how much HP that is.
:D http://tcase.rsgear.com/products/transmissions/tranzilla.aspx
Quote from: Topcat on October 31, 2018, 07:24:50 PM
19 grand? :rubeyes:
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/pictures/hellephant-426-mopar-crate-hemi-demon-sema/6/?fbclid=IwAR2wNOTr2p6Maxzlq4tk7HZr5mEyREm96s6K_e1NwyeUZgnro0-p9I3UNds
With the Hellcrate at that price, I can't believe the Hellephant is the same.
Starting with better parts I bet the cost is similar cast a heavier block but once the casting is done the cost of the block is the same
Similar situation with the rest of the parts!
950 tq on the street is crazy
I was thinking the same, that all the parts probably cost close to the same anyway. Honestly, putting this engine on the street would only be to puff out your chest. My Viper is only 600HP with 345's and I have to feather it in first and sometimes even in second. I could see buying this engine and bolting it into a race car though, I think it's a pretty cost effective way to come up with 1000HP and in a good chassis that could be some fun.
I think I read that it's supposed to be around $25k with the harness. New aluminum block and larger supercharger get you the extra HP and drive the price. I know in my car as it sits, it would probably rip the front subframe out so I think you are going to need substantial reinforcement up front and some hella-strong motor mounts. Without slicks you can't hope to get that hp to the ground with a tire you can fit in the stock B/E body wheel well, but it would be fun to try.
It's probably more about bragging rights then usable power. It would certainly draw a crowd at a show. Expensive toy if it's done right! You know what they say, a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.
Quote from: Chryco Psycho on October 31, 2018, 09:01:07 PM
950 tq on the street is crazy
My cummins is rated @930tq. Although I use it to pull a load, not pull hard at the street light..
What has been mentioned is correct. The car will never hook on the street. I say who cares! That is totally badass and if I didn't have so many irons in the fire I would be sticking one of those things in my Road Runner. :burnout: You couldn't build that horsepower in a vintage motor for that kind of money and you would never have the reliability that thing will have. If you really think about it that's a pretty good price for what you get.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181101/ce6c777ae704b36b9134237517bde5b4.jpg)
Figure out how to pay for it later. :haha: Get it coming!
Interesting thread and a good read! Yeah probably an overkill but would be fun . . . :stayinlane:
Ok. Need someone to pick one up and do a "How To" thread covering finding the right transmission, rear ends, driveshaft and chassis work.
IMO no it is not feasable ... Let me explain ...
I am sure it will fit , but either you are pulling a trailer with Race fuel or if it will run at all on pump gas you will limit the power to a much lower level .
this is a perfect competition engine for some serious competition such as the drag Pack body shells Mopar was offering or some serious road course racing .
For street use the Hellcrate has to be the ultimate choice at least it si pump gas friendly & 800hp should be enough !!
Trans choice is a tough call , A well built 727 / 518 will take a lot of power Lencos will take it all day , T56 Magnum or a T5050 should hold up but maybe not drag racing on slicks . I have run 800+ hp through a 727 reliably with a blown 440 .
The diff is a no brainer , get a Dana or buy something less & break it anyway & replace it with a Dana .
I learned a ton with my Duster , 575 HP 440 on a motor plate / A833 Alum OD / 4.30 8 3/4 , floating ladder bar suspension , 3400 lb with me in it , it had a 10 point cage , the rear frame rails were moved inward & it was tubbed , I was running 11.7s @ 118 in the 1/4 with a 1.40 60' time on an 10.5 x 29.5 " slick . I street drove the Duster & never had a trailer taking it to the track .
This car never ran its potential , I still had chassis flex , the tires still never hooked 100 % & I used a brutal clutch , it went in gold in color & came out B5 blue from heat from slippage , it was a ceramic metallic disc & was the only thing that would even live behind that engine , I replaced 2 clutches in it in the first 300 miles !!
I transferred the whole drivetrain into my tube chassis Cuda , it weighed 2600 lbs I used a far bigger dual disc clutch & a 14x 32" slick , the Cuda launched so much harder than the Duster it was unreal , the chassis did not flex & the clutch & tires did not slip it ran a mid 9 . On the first launch at only 3300 rpm it tore 10 teeth from the pinion gear & 33 teeth off the ring gear & only went approx 40" under partial power , it required a Dana to make a second launch even at part throttle !
Quote from: Chryco Psycho on November 02, 2018, 07:30:26 AM
IMO no it is not feasable ...
I am sure it will fit , but either you are pulling a trailer with Race fuel or if it will run at all on pump gas you will limit the power to a much lower level .
this is a perfect competition engine for some serious competition such as the drag Pack body shells Mopar was offering or some serious road course racing .
For street use the Hellcrate has to be the ultimate choice at least it si pump gas friendly & 800hp should be enough !!
Trans choice is a tough call , A well built 727 / 518 will take a lot of power Lencos will take it all day , T56 Magnum or a T5050 should hold up but maybe not drag racing on slicks .
The diff is a no brainer , get a Dana or buy something less & break it anyway & replace it with a Dana .
I learned a ton with my Duster , 575 HP 440 on a motor plate / A833 Alum OD / 4.30 8 3/4 , floating ladder bar suspension , 3400 lb with me in it , it had a 10 point cage , the rear frame rails were moved inward & it was tubbed , I was running 11.7s @ 118 in the 1/4 with a 1.40 60' time on an 10.5 x 29.5 " slick . I street drove the Duster & never had a trailer taking it to the track .
This car never ran its potential , I still had chassis flex , the tires still never hooked 100 % & I used a brutal clutch , it went in gold in color & came out B5 blue from heat from slippage , it was a ceramic metallic disc & was the only thing that would even live behind that engine !
I transferred the whole drivetrain into my tube chassis Cuda , it weighed 2600 lbs I used a far bigger dual disc clutch & a 14x 32" slick , the Cuda launched so much harder than the Duster it was unreal , the chassis did not flex & the clutch & tires did not slip it ran a mid 9 . On the first launch at only 3300 rpm it tore 10 teeth from the pinion gear & 33 teeth off the ring gear & only went approx 40" under partial power , it required a Dana to make a second launch even at part throttle !
Unless something has changed, I read the 1,000hp rating is on pump gas.
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SO can it be done ? Absolutely YES
Will you be able to run it & drive it ? Yes
Will you ever get the full potential ? No ... which is why I would suggest working on using the full potential of the Hellcrate & it will take pump gas at least !
In an stock body I would suggest 10 pt cage & subframes & tubs at a minimum , every stiffening part should be added , tq boxes , rad support brace , inner fender bracing etc , Tub it absolutely you need all of the tire you can fit . Driveshaft would need to be alum or Carbon fiber , I recommend loops at both ends ,
For suspension I have had far better success with floating ladderbar systems over the endlessly adjustable 4 links , my Duster would lift the front wheels 2 feet & carry them 40'!! On the first launch with my Duster I twisted both axles approx 30% so how far did I twist them so they would have a 30% twist memory !! Keep in mind I was running less than 60% of the power of the Hellephant !!
A full tube chassis car would be better suited for this engine , less weight & stiffer chassis , a 14 x32 " tire would be a good start !
As suggested using the tires as the weakest link is perfect but you can light tires with a lot less power & losing control at speed / drifting at 100 mph is not for the faint of heart !!
This is insane power , current Pro stocks are probably making similar power , SS/A Cudas & Darts running into the 7s are running 800-900 hp , at the track as soon as you run under 10 seconds which should be easy you need a 10 pt cage 3 layer fire suit & a track licence to drive it !
Quote from: GoodysGotaCuda on November 02, 2018, 07:39:57 AM
Unless something has changed, I read the 1,000hp rating is on pump gas.
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OK I am still learning on the specs on this beast !!
I am just sharing my real world experience based on having spent a lot of time behind the wheel of serious 800 hp cars & this exceed even that !!
The Cummins is a different & awesome beast as well , my Cummins dynoed at 930 ft lbs but the truck is geared differently weighed in at 7700 lbs empty & did not rev like the Hemi will !!
I completely agree with Shane what a fun toy !!
$ Sheldon as well what else could you build as cheaply & be reliable !!
I would be very tempted to pull the V10 & slide it into a Viper chassis !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PWwrOILaV8&feature=youtu.be
that oil pan is not going to fit the std Mopar K frame for sure & I bet the exhaust manifolds won't either !
Wow! ...... this is some crazy $hit ! Yeeowwza :burnout:
Quote from: Chryco Psycho on November 02, 2018, 08:59:35 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PWwrOILaV8&feature=youtu.be
that oil pan is not going to fit the std Mopar K frame for sure & I bet the exhaust manifolds won't either !
I think most/all of the gen 3 hemi/hellcrate swaps are using custom k frames anyway, at least all the ones I've seen. I'd want something stronger up front than the stock system anyway to move the "fuse" to something that is easier to fix/change.
If someone was so inclined to donate one I'd shoehorn in into my new to me Javelin? :idea:
:haha:
Quote from: 7212Mopar on November 01, 2018, 12:47:27 PM
Ok. Need someone to pick one up and do a "How To" thread covering finding the right transmission, rear ends, driveshaft and chassis work.
I just need a donated engine and I'll have it in the car and running in just a couple days!
My T56 magnum is ready to go.
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Funny that is NASCAR horsepower, anyone want to sponsor a new team?
:rofl:
Seriously what could go wrong!
Just do it, remember it was said we couldn't handle speeds over 35!
May be I am a TV sucker but I thought the cars in Street Outlaws are 3000+ HP. Are they all using custom trans and diffs that may be adapted for the Helliphant?
It would be nice but so expensive. I really would like the magic number 426 though. My plan for now is to get my 6.1 running, then later (probably years later) get a blower for it, and maybe then a stroker kit to get to 426. That wound give me around 650-700HP. I talked to Edelbrock at SEMA, their blower is $3500, plus some extra for the front end and tuning etc. not bad. Power is just addictive and a ride in my buddys Shelby GT500 with a blower makes me want more of it.
The Hellephant project is amazing and Dodge has all my respect for pushing the boundaries. After all the excitement has given way to some practicality, one starts thinking about an everyday ride and if this beast can even logically be considered for one? What would all the considerations for an everyday ride be if it was feasible?
Quote from: soundcontrol on November 02, 2018, 10:39:13 PM
It would be nice but so expensive. I really would like the magic number 426 though. My plan for now is to get my 6.1 running, then later (probably years later) get a blower for it, and maybe then a stroker kit to get to 426. That wound give me around 650-700HP. I talked to Edelbrock at SEMA, their blower is $3500, plus some extra for the front end and tuning etc. not bad. Power is just addictive and a ride in my buddys Shelby GT500 with a blower makes me want more of it.
Blowers have a lot to offer for street driven manners. I am planning on either a Whipple kit for my 5.7L or a take-out Hellcat engine for my 'Cuda after the kids get out of daycare. A whipple on a basic 5.7L will get me to a Hellcat horsepower-to-weight ratio, easily.
Of course, the higher the horsepower the lower the everyday drive-ability factor kicks in.
But sure would be quite fun.
It seems with all of the computer controls , EFI with better fuel atomization & the fuel entering right behind the intake valve that very serious engines will fire every cylinder all the time , idle well & are very street drivable compared old school high HP builds
Quote from: HP_Cuda on November 03, 2018, 01:43:28 PM
Of course, the higher the horsepower the lower the everyday drive-ability factor kicks in.
But sure would be quite fun.
Nice thing with a blower is the power is very linear. If you don't want your eyeballs sucked to the back of your skull then keep your foot out of it. Car behaves very well at part throttle. But it is always there if you want it.
Blowers can actually provide good gas mileage as long as you keep your foot out of it!
But what I was talking about is 1000hp +
Just read this older review of an AC Cobra, reminded me of this thread. Especially the last 2 sentences.
"There is nothing nice about a Cobra. It is stripped down to the essentials- a big engine, a small car, and four wide tires to keep the whole business on pavement. Its loud, smells like gasoline, and shakes, shudders, and bucks. It makes your arms tired and your feet hot. You nearly crash about once every 10 minutes. Its so damn wonderful that you cant believe it" Automobile Magazine 2004
Quote from: Cudakiller70 on November 04, 2018, 12:06:28 PM
Just read this older review of an AC Cobra, reminded me of this thread. Especially the last 2 sentences.
"There is nothing nice about a Cobra. It is stripped down to the essentials- a big engine, a small car, and four wide tires to keep the whole business on pavement. Its loud, smells like gasoline, and shakes, shudders, and bucks. It makes your arms tired and your feet hot. You nearly crash about once every 10 minutes. Its so damn wonderful that you cant believe it" Automobile Magazine 2004
My experience driving a 2016 ACR Viper wasn't exactly the same, but the car definitely wanted to kill you. It's a terrible street car and should be on the track. I loved it!
I guess I just consider it a challenge ..... the car wants to kill you & I want to see how far I can push it & stay on this side :cooldance:
I have driven a few different Cobras , & there is very little I like about them... but performance is there !
In the latest email update from SST, they list the TREMEC 6 spd Magnum trans as a great match for the Hellephant - https://shiftsst.com/articles/hellephant-tremec-magnum-6-speed/?utm_source=Nov2018&utm_medium=Nov2018&utm_campaign=Nov2018&utm_term=Nov2018&utm_content=Nov2018
I emailed them to ask why they think this would be a good trans when its only rated up to 700 ft/lb tq and the big engine is at 950. They replied quickly "Easy. The 700 torque rating is for a 24 hour constant input. Plus, the trans has a 150,000 mile duty cycle at that rating. 950 torque is nothing new and I've seen this plus more put in front of a Magnum since it came out 8 years ago. We even warranty it for 36 months."
Quote from: 303 Mopar on November 07, 2018, 09:44:33 AM
In the latest email update from SST, they list the TREMEC 6 spd Magnum trans as a great match for the Hellephant - https://shiftsst.com/articles/hellephant-tremec-magnum-6-speed/?utm_source=Nov2018&utm_medium=Nov2018&utm_campaign=Nov2018&utm_term=Nov2018&utm_content=Nov2018
I emailed them to ask why they think this would be a good trans when its only rated up to 700 ft/lb tq and the big engine is at 950. They replied quickly "Easy. The 700 torque rating is for a 24 hour constant input. Plus, the trans has a 150,000 mile duty cycle at that rating. 950 torque is nothing new and I've seen this plus more put in front of a Magnum since it came out 8 years ago. We even warranty it for 36 months."
Fortunately this was a big reason my car was built around a T56 magnum and not a high dollar engine. Budgeting wise I needed to pick one or the other, so I installed the last transmission I'll ever need. I can always upgrade an engine in a short time.
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At a given HP level (enter number here) the costs for every ancillary item goes up exponentially. IE. Picture a mushroom cloud and you may get close.
It would be one hell of a cool thing to have in the car. If you're not hammering the throttle you would be able to cruise it. Think it would be more of a novelty than anything else
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I know a guy up here in Ontario that belongs to a local facebook Mopar car club that says he's ordering one for his 68 Charger. Should be a cool ride, it is a really nice car already. :bigmoney:
MMW?
Stumbled on this video today
I suspect the engine can be very streetable. With the computer system that it most likely has, it probably doesn't have that much power unless you "turn it on". Even the Corvettes "stock" engine with 465hp only runs on 4 cylinder around town and interstate.
Hellephant is only now rolling into production after premature failure due to excessive cam tension.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/30704/1000-hp-hellephant-crate-engine-heads-to-production-after-fixing-reliability-problems-report
I think for $33k, I'd rather have a less HP (~750) Gen II all aluminum dual EFI Hemi from FHO.
Can't deny which one is better looking and is more appropriate in a early musclecar:
(https://forhemisonly.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/efi-hemi-engine_04.jpg)
Quote from: 303 Mopar on October 29, 2019, 12:55:20 PM
Hellephant is only now rolling into production after premature failure due to excessive cam tension.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/30704/1000-hp-hellephant-crate-engine-heads-to-production-after-fixing-reliability-problems-report
Pistons also.
This was announced on April 26 correct ?
Still not one out the door ! :huh:
Quote from: Chryco Psycho on November 04, 2019, 07:22:27 PM
This was announced on April 26 correct ?
Still not one out the door ! :huh:
If it's anything like where I work, it was Marketing's mouth outrunning Engineering and Operation's capabilities and reality.
Might as well get it right before releasing it
While pushing the factory envelope boundaries farther than anyone has ever done before. Setbacks are expected. Getting past them will write its history. Not the delays.
This is unbelievable territory for an oem.