What's all is required - to call a Car "numbers matching" and "Stock original"?

[cuda_t]

Howdy,

Had a discussion with friends [disagreement], so putting it into the community here, for the truth.

Thanks for replies.

[1970 cuda Joe]

You'll get lots of different answers here on that question.
Numbers matching is a loose term these days. It could mean block casting date, VIN matching parts.
 
Stock original should mean how it was originally but doesn't always mean that.

The term I see is "Born With" components. That should mean the engine, trans, rear end, etc should be the ones that were installed on the assm line when "that" car left the factory. People do restamps & try to say it's born with.

A car is only original once

Confused?....me too....Joe

[torredcuda]

Good info here -
https://www.e-bodies.org/buying-your-first-e-body/vin-numbers/

I`ve heard a lot of different opinions on both matching numbers and stock original. To me numbers matching is at minimum vin tag, body numbers, engine and transmission numbers; bonus for fender tag, broadcast sheet and door sticker. Stock original would mean everything on it is exactly as it left the factory, if anything was replaced it would no longer be original but restored/modified. Of course the most mis-used word in the car hobby is "restored".

[larry4406]

Good info here -
https://www.e-bodies.org/buying-your-first-e-body/vin-numbers/

I`ve heard a lot of different opinions on both matching numbers and stock original. To me numbers matching is at minimum vin tag, body numbers, engine and transmission numbers; bonus for fender tag, broadcast sheet and door sticker. Stock original would mean everything on it is exactly as it left the factory, if anything was replaced it would no longer be original but restored/modified. Of course the most mis-used word in the car hobby is "restored".

I always get a kick reading about "frame off" restorations of unibody Mopars!

[pschlosser]

Another way to describe "numbers matching" is no discrepancies.  All those places where there ARE numbers (VIN, partial VIN, etc.) they all jive and match.  We could list the places, like title document, engine, transmission, dash pad, door jam, fender tag, broadcast sheet, and assorted sheet metal, but some of these can be missing, and it be legitimate and acceptable.  But when any of those sources DOES NOT match, it's hard to give the "numbers matching" badge of honor.

[cuda hunter]

Numbers matching is definitely every location that has the vin is matching. 
A proper numbers matching car will have everything.  BS,FT,VT,Monroney,cowl and radiator stamps, Engine , Trans, warranty card. 
  The less of those, the less it is numbers matching.

Stock ORIGINAL  is as it's name suggests.  ORIGINAL equipment on the car from day one. 
Stock can be without the original parts but replaced with matching parts.  Stock original has to have those original and matching parts. 

A survivor is an entire other world.  Survivor being a car that has had no changes in it's life.  No paint change, no motor change, no alternator change, no nothing changed.  Same dirt on the drivers carpet since 1970. 

[70_440-6Cuda]

Interesting discussion - seems like the issue arises when people are lees than forthright in a car's provenance and history,

I always understood numbers matching to be pretty straight forward, meaning the vehicle VIN, engine and transmission #s all matched and were the original installed from the factory assembly line.  Gets a little muddy if you consider someone taking a dash VIN and installing it on another chassis etc. etc.

Stock to me means the car has no aftermarket modifications, but may have been serviced with correct replacement parts over the years.

To me a survivor is more about knowing the documented history of the car, original paint, none to few modifications.  I have a neighbor with a '68 GTX Hemi that I would consider a survivor - original paint, interior, engine and transmission, etc but does have headers and a few other minor mods from way back in the day.  He got the car from his father in law, who bought it from the original owner and they have lots of history and documentation - a very cool car

For me I think it is all in being able to validate the authenticity of any of the claims of originality.  I know I am documenting everything I am doing on my car, and will be as upfront as possible about how the car was assembled and where the parts all came from if the occasion ever arises where I intend to sell it (which is highly unlikely) I think honesty adds more value than trying to "fake" it, especially to those who care about these cars.

[cuda hunter]

So the 68 GTX would be considered a day 2 survivor.  Most everything that matters is there and a few items could make it right close to a true survivor again (kind of). 

[HP2]

I'm on board with most opinions so far.

Stock - unmodified but with comparable to OEM service replacements such as tires, shocks, belts, hoses, sparkplugs, etc.

Original - all original everything.

Numbers Matching - all appropriate VIN #s match in all correct places. Could have service parts replaced with newer items as described in stock.

Survivor - here is where it can diverge, IMO, as it depends on what era you are claiming survival from. For some, it is as original. For some it is as modified day 2 with a few performance bolt-ons. For some it could be a radically altered very early in its life but it hasn't been changed since. Some evidence of its condition to get to this state are usually expected, same family history, photos, receipts, etc.

Date code correct - changes from original that do not align with all VIN#s but are within a possible date range of the original product. This can be in stock or modified form. This is often the case that some will stretch to call "numbers matching" since the original "vin correct" engine or trans ior component s gone but it has been replaced with one from the same era of casting/original assembly date range.

Restored - brought back to a previous condition. To many, this is ideally back to stock. For some it is correcting age defects such as rust and rot. For others it is simply a paint job. Yet others think it is making it better than original. This is probably the broadest range of opinion you will find.

You can also combine some states together such as restored to stock. IMO, a stock, original, unrestored car is practically non-existent since even if it hasn't been modified, if it has been used for more than a few thousand miles, it probably had some parts replaced that prevent it from being original. With that being said, there have been a few examples of these that have popped up. Think a car that was parked and never driven shortly after being purchased.

Some people might say that a car has been restored to original in the sense that it was returned to it's stock specifications.  For some, this could be predicated by the use of all NOS or OEM spec components, to include consumables so that it is as it appeared as it originally would have been sold. However, IMO, in the strictest terms, this is not original,  but restored.  I suspect this is the biggest point of contention in the discussion around what the differences are.

I once had a car that had multiple vin stamped body components as well as non-matching engine and trans. It was a rebuild from multiple other cars after a severe collision and before reproduction parts were being made.

[70_440-6Cuda]

So the 68 GTX would be considered a day 2 survivor.  Most everything that matters is there and a few items could make it right close to a true survivor again (kind of). 

For me, it is a "survivor of the era".... many of the '70s era original owners couldn't wait to get hold of those muscle cars and modify them in the vein of the era - to me that is still a survivor. 

Like all things, it depends...... for me it is the level and authenticity of the documentation that matters - I have a 1940 Ford Tudor Sedan that my father bought in '57 when he was a senior in high school - while none of the definitions apply (highly modified hot rod in the middle of a new build now) having the history of where the car has been, and knowing how it was modified over the years, helps a lot in determining current condition.

[RUNCHARGER]

My opinion only and this is what is important to me. Proper, original VIN tag, untouched body numbers, original fender tag and/or build sheet, original stamping on engine and transmission. Honestly after that I don't give a heck. I would never penalize a cars pedigree because it got driven and the starter got changed out.
For other people they want all the date codes, whatever. That stuff doesn't make it a better car and me, well I'll never go to MCACN, I'm just not good enough for that scene.