What defines a rebody ??

[screamindriver]

I know this subject can go off in bad directions and that's not what I'm looking for... Is there a "line in the sand" that actually defines a rebody ?? Or is that where the problem lies ?? I'm not talking about the obvious scenario where the whole car is restamped without a single original piece...
   I'm asking questions like :
How much of an original vehicle must be there before the flag goes up ??
I've seen restos where pretty much the whole vehicle is replaced except for the cowl area of the numbers and not been called a rebody ?
And in that case just how much "original" metal needs to be there around those numbers ??
Like I've said, not trying to start a  or just trying to figure out if there's actually a set of guidelines for this and if not how is that even possible in this day and age??  Technically,wouldn't that leave too much open for interpretation for any major resto project ??

[6Pack70]

I personally could care less how much reproduction metal or doner unibodies are used to make a wasted car whole again.  It also doesn't bother me one bit that people move their partial vins or "body stamps" over to the new reproduction metal....or even doner metal from another car.   This is all fine with me as long as people are made aware of what it took to make the vehicle whole again.  I do not in any way support modifications to vin numbers or codes on fender tags in order to create something that never existed in the first place.  I do not know where the definitive line is when calling a car a rebody. Today there is so much new reproduction metal being used to save cars and trucks that many many of the nicest restored vehicles out there could be called a re-body .     If bringing a wrecked or rotted car back to safe roadworthy condition requires every panel made by AMD or the combination of new metal and donar metal,  so be it.   As a buyer... ask questions about the resto. Ask for pictures to back up statements.   As a seller.... be honest, tell people what you know about what you have for sale. Let people really look it over.  Tell them what it was and what it took to get it to the condition it in.  Price it accordingly.   You would be amazed at how far honesty goes when selling a restored car.   If using metal from 3 different cars and some AMD pieces to rebuild a car without changing any of the characters in its vin and fender tags, just new metal,  I say go for it.  Tell people what it took though.   If this is not good enough, a buyer can always keep shopping for a car that is extremely original or one that did not need that much work to bring it back.

[dodj]

 
6pack70 states pretty much how I feel about the term re-bodied.
I feel the same about clones. You want to build a 71 hemi challenger? Go ahead. But be honest about its roots when selling.

[Fastmark]

I tell you what makes no sense to me. People are ok with changing almost all the body panels, frail rails, etc., as long as it has the making numbered drivetrain. I've gotten several customers who have fallen for that. What makes a car that has a rustfree, all original sheet metal car of less value because the motor was replaced in warranty, is a mystery to me. A car that has sat in a field in PA and rusted beyond my imagination, with a matching drive train because it was too rusty to stay on the road, is hard for me to accept as a " worthy" car.

[6Pack70]

Agreed.  I have the utmost respect for Mopars that truely are matching numbers body and drivetrain.... that's a real winner in my opinion.   Its been over 50 years in most cases... some enthusiasts will get upset when when they hear of a car or truck that has 90% replacement steel from AMD and other rust free vehicles.  However when they see a vehicle with some minimal rust repair and a completely different drivetrain  (all vin numbers missing), this is acceptable and "things happen to these cars after all these years". 
Overrall,  the whole body thing is  really a touchy topic.  My theory.... if it actually existed and you have the proof that it did, ... build something...and be honest about the build.   If it never existed in the first place and you are shady and dishonest about numbers, codes and the actual build.... well just like every other scammer, you belong behind bars.  With all the new reproduction metal available for the cars we love today, buyers should be exercising their due diligence and asking questions and looking for honesty from sellers.   

[torredcuda]

I personally could care less how much reproduction metal or doner unibodies are used to make a wasted car whole again.  It also doesn't bother me one bit that people move their partial vins or "body stamps" over to the new reproduction metal....or even doner metal from another car.   This is all fine with me as long as people are made aware of what it took to make the vehicle whole again.  I do not in any way support modifications to vin numbers or codes on fender tags in order to create something that never existed in the first place.  I do not know where the definitive line is when calling a car a rebody. Today there is so much new reproduction metal being used to save cars and trucks that many many of the nicest restored vehicles out there could be called a re-body .     If bringing a wrecked or rotted car back to safe roadworthy condition requires every panel made by AMD or the combination of new metal and donar metal,  so be it.   As a buyer... ask questions about the resto. Ask for pictures to back up statements.   As a seller.... be honest, tell people what you know about what you have for sale. Let people really look it over.  Tell them what it was and what it took to get it to the condition it in.  Price it accordingly.   You would be amazed at how far honesty goes when selling a restored car.   If using metal from 3 different cars and some AMD pieces to rebuild a car without changing any of the characters in its vin and fender tags, just new metal,  I say go for it.  Tell people what it took though.   If this is not good enough, a buyer can always keep shopping for a car that is extremely original or one that did not need that much work to bring it back.

Almost exactly how I feel about it. As long as you are taking a real factory vin car and rebiulding it not "creating" a car it`s 100% OK with me and in fact I love to see them saved instead of crushed.



Ya, I don`t get the "it`s not macthing numbers engine and transmission so it`s not worth restoring" thinking. Like the body, the engine and transmission are exactly the same (from like models) except for some numbers atmped into them. Sure it`s not worth as much as a numbers matching car but most are still worthy of a resto rather than completely customized or worse parted out.

[kathyscuda]

there are many slimers out there who will cut and weld vins into a rust free body and pass it as an orig car.
an uneducated buyer will get take your word and pay up.
eventually someone with knowledge will catch the fraud. but its too late.
happens a lot. some sellers are honest. some are not. and some just don't know. after a car is FLIPPED 5 times the truth is lost.

[6Pack70]

What would be really cool in my opinion is if there was a registry or a Facebook group that people can register known cars that have been rebuilt with all new unibodies, reproduction metal.... whatever.  As long as the vehicle is true to its original form and real vin numbers from a once factory built car were used.   This knowledge would also be a great alternative for people who are looking for a great musclecar but can't afford a true, original metal,  numbers matching well documented machane.  Clone cars bring big money right now, why not have a place where real vin numbered, rare musclecars that were reborn from the ashes have a place in our hobby?  No matter where you go or what you're into, there will be scumbags trying to scam you out of your money.  I regularly pass this info on to younger enthusiasts.  Do your homework!  Ask questions?  If the answers are vague.... move on.  Simple. 

[torredcuda]

"buyer beware" , do your homework before spending your money as there will always be dishonest people in the world.

[benlavigne]

I personally could care less how much reproduction metal or doner unibodies are used to make a wasted car whole again.  It also doesn't bother me one bit that people move their partial vins or "body stamps" over to the new reproduction metal....or even doner metal from another car.   This is all fine with me as long as people are made aware of what it took to make the vehicle whole again.  I do not in any way support modifications to vin numbers or codes on fender tags in order to create something that never existed in the first place.  I do not know where the definitive line is when calling a car a rebody. Today there is so much new reproduction metal being used to save cars and trucks that many many of the nicest restored vehicles out there could be called a re-body .     If bringing a wrecked or rotted car back to safe roadworthy condition requires every panel made by AMD or the combination of new metal and donar metal,  so be it.   As a buyer... ask questions about the resto. Ask for pictures to back up statements.   As a seller.... be honest, tell people what you know about what you have for sale. Let people really look it over.  Tell them what it was and what it took to get it to the condition it in.  Price it accordingly.   You would be amazed at how far honesty goes when selling a restored car.   If using metal from 3 different cars and some AMD pieces to rebuild a car without changing any of the characters in its vin and fender tags, just new metal,  I say go for it.  Tell people what it took though.   If this is not good enough, a buyer can always keep shopping for a car that is extremely original or one that did not need that much work to bring it back.

That is exactly how I feel about it, the body is just another part or an assemblage of parts, so as long as there is a title or registration for the original car and a basic shell, ensuring there is only one car out there with that VIN, everything can be replaced. Altering numbers on an engine or trans from another car to pass them as matching the car is another matter altogether.
Basic rule of thumb for a buyer should be that a true original car is a rarity after 50 years, and it should be assumed that almost all cars have had some work done to them, so it's up to the seller to prove the originality. So many flippers buy and sell these cars without regards to documentation and history, so it's definitely a challenge for the buyers, but as the cars get discussed on forums such as this, a simple Google search can bring out info easily. There is a minimum of due dilligence to do when buying a 50K+ collector car... Always assume the worst!

Ben

[JH27N0B]

I tell you what makes no sense to me. People are ok with changing almost all the body panels, frail rails, etc., as long as it has the making numbered drivetrain. I've gotten several customers who have fallen for that. What makes a car that has a rustfree, all original sheet metal car of less value because the motor was replaced in warranty, is a mystery to me. A car that has sat in a field in PA and rusted beyond my imagination, with a matching drive train because it was too rusty to stay on the road, is hard for me to accept as a " worthy" car.

That one always gets me too.  2 of my 3 E bodies are NOM and other than a couple times while I've been under the car changing oil or something, I've never even seen the numbers on the engine and trans.  One of those cars is the cleanest body anyone has ever saw on an E body, I noticed not even a spot of surface rust on the bottom of the trunk floor when I changed the fuel tank some years back, yet it's a flawed car due to the engine trans not being the ones the car was born with?
It comes from the GM crowd I think, where GM VINs don't have the engine size specified, so numbers matching is important to determine that LS6 or Stage 1 car you are buying wasn't actually a 350 car when it was built.  Mopars don't have that problem, so shame on us for blindly following the GM crowd by fixating on whether our cars are numbers matching or not!
But like they say about fighting city hall, numbers matching is pretty ingrained as far as importance so you really can't fight it, despite it being highly over rated as a metric on Mopars....

[anlauto]

A curious question in reference to the yellow V code Cuda in the other thread....

The original poster did an excellent thing by reaching out to Mecum to prevent the sale to an unsuspecting buyer. I thought maybe the buyer might enjoy the car reguardless, but I guess not at $80K....

So my question is: What should become of this car now? Is it completely worthless ? Should it be destroyed ? Should it be issued a State VIN ?

Should the BS23V VIN tag be destroyed ? Or should it just be sold for a lot less money to someone who'll enjoy and love the car as is, know it's a rebodied car. There are a lot of them out there.

[lahatte]

"there are many slimers out there who will cut and weld vins into a rust free body and pass it as an orig car."

For many years that was my intention to do for a 383 cuda project that I had acquired from a salvage yard, but without the "passing it off" slime part. For a long time my thinking was that "the car" was what Chrysler intended to make as reflected in the VIN, on the data tag, and the build sheet (all of which which I have), and a body is just another 'part'. I have come to understand, however, the differing position that the chassis is the major component to which everything else attaches, and to many that makes it especially important to "the car".

What had happened was... In the early 80's, I had been around another person that moved the VIN number from one body to another, and another car that was put together from two car bodies (front clip was a 70 cuda, rear portion was from a 72-74). So at the time, I thought nothing of it and I proceeded to cut this cuda body behind the firewall, intending to join it to another body I had to have a final rust-free body.

I was young and ignorant (20 years old?). I didn't at the time really even consider the stamped body numbers. The sad thing of course was that the junk yard body was actually in pretty good shape by today's standards. I do still have the stamped body numbers.

Anyway, IF I wanted to ever try to build the car based on the VIN as Chrysler built it, using another big block cuda body, and making it as a rebody, my thought in the past was to weld in the body stampings to the 'donor' body, and also stamp "REBODY" next to those. Or, should the body stampings just be done away with all together?

No fraud is intended here, and again, this car may never get built. I am just curious the different opinions on this.

So, in short, I suppose..., is the car "the VIN" (there is no other vehicle with that VIN). Or, is the VIN nothing with the matching chassis, and that 'car' with the options, etc. as Chrysler had specified can never exist again?

Thoughts?

[MoparLeo]

If a car is totaled by the insurance company and it is "repaired" it now needs a "salvage title" to release liability for the car manufacturer and is obviously worth less than a non salvage car of same condition. One thing to remember when dealing with uni-body cars is the the body is the chassis. Unless stress panels are installed by a shop licensed to do to the manufacturers specs. There is no guarantee as to the safety of that vehicle if involved in a collision. You have seen cars that were pop riveted together or tack welded.
So it is more important to know who did the major body structure replacement than just the fact that major work was done. You can only be sure of the factory procedures, requirements. Your local body shop most likely will not have the same equipment, training or standards.
There is probably and definition of a rebody/salvage in your local states vehicle code and you would need to research it through your states DMV or it equivalent

[torredcuda]

If a car is totaled by the insurance company and it is "repaired" it now needs a "salvage title" to release liability for the car manufacturer and is obviously worth less than a non salvage car of same condition. One thing to remember when dealing with uni-body cars is the the body is the chassis. Unless stress panels are installed by a shop licensed to do to the manufacturers specs. There is no guarantee as to the safety of that vehicle if involved in a collision. You have seen cars that were pop riveted together or tack welded.
So it is more important to know who did the major body structure replacement than just the fact that major work was done. You can only be sure of the factory procedures, requirements. Your local body shop most likely will not have the same equipment, training or standards.
There is probably and definition of a rebody/salvage in your local states vehicle code and you would need to research it through your states DMV or it equivalent

A totaled and repaired vehicle is different than a restoration of an old vehicle but body shops routinely do major reconstruction, swapping frames, clipping bodies etc. and if done correctly are just as good as factory without having to get a salvage title. On a restoration at exactly what point does replacing 95% of the body around the vin stampings become the same as swapping the stampings on to a good body, I have yet to hear a definitive answer?