Features on new cars that are going extinct: keys, spare tires, idling?

[73440]

I own 10 vehicles ,only two made in this century , newest is a 2006 Police Interceptor.
I won't own a coal fired car.
DD van gets 11 mpg, mpg is not the only reason to drive a vehicle , have 404,000 miles on it , don't want to do the math on gas bought , glad to have the van when I need it .

[chargerdon]

Electric cars ARE the future, but, it isnt here yet from a wallet standpoint.   I.e.   I love the post talking about his bolt getting an equivalent of 80 MPGe.    Thats wonderful, but, it doesn't beging to be economical.

Compare...10,000 miles per year at 80 MPGe means in a year you will spend about $343 per year for the electricity.   Now then instead buy a Toyota Camry which gets 34 mpg (epa combined city/highway rating).   This will cost you about $808 for gasoline.   A savings of $465 per year in fuel costs with the Bolt.   However the Bolt base price is $41,780 minus the Camry's base of $23,845.   Difference is $17,935.   $17,935 / $465 = 38...    So, it would take you 38 years of driving to break even...  38 years..!!!!!

Oh and please do not bring up the $7,000 tax credit to me.   I'm retired so i don't pay $7,000 in taxes to use that credit.   Also, i find it objectionable that we give people wealthy enough to spend $41,700 on a compact economy car a tax break.   That means the guy who cant afford it is subsidizing the wealthier buyers.   Sumeting wong here !

Now, if you want to claim that the Bolts performance beats the Camrys 4 cylinder engine.   Ok lets do the math for the V6 Camry...it gets 26 MPG combined...so it would consume $1,057 dollars worth of gas.   It costs $34,000 or $7,780 dollars cheaper so $7,780 / 1057 = 7.3 years to break even...but then the Camry its a much larger more luxurious car.   

Lets do a Hyundai Tucson which is a hatch back like the bolt.   With optional 2.4 liter 181 hp i'm sure it would keep up with the bolt with epa of 26 combined and price of $26,550.   Fuel would cost $1057 difference in cost is $15,230 / 2057 = 14.4 years to break even.    ( i used $2.75 per gallon for all computations...and again did not factor in the higher sales tax on the Bolt or the cost of financing the difference....If i had the break even points would have been much higher).   

I do not doubt for one second that at some point in the future the price of electric vehicles factoring in the fuel economy will be a better buy than the gasoline equivalent...   But we still have a long long way to go from a purely economical standpoint !!   

I once sold Toyotas for a living...  had a lady come in who wanted a Hybrid Highlander...   Once i showed her the math...she quickly changed her mind and bought the V6 highlander.   At the time the break even point even with a $7,000 tax rebate was about 9 years (oh i did this because we didn't have a hybrid model in stock).

[dave73]

My neighbor has an electric car, it cost him in the ballpark of 2k dollars to have a plug installed in his garage. Looks dopey seeing his car plugged in while sitting in the driveway. He uses some app to find charging stations to plug into while traveling. Sounds like a major pain in the butt if you ask me. But to each their own.

[ledphoot]

Electric cars ARE the future, but, it isnt here yet from a wallet standpoint.   I.e.   I love the post talking about his bolt getting an equivalent of 80 MPGe.    Thats wonderful, but, it doesn't beging to be economical.

Compare...10,000 miles per year at 80 MPGe means in a year you will spend about $343 per year for the electricity.   Now then instead buy a Toyota Camry which gets 34 mpg (epa combined city/highway rating).   This will cost you about $808 for gasoline.   A savings of $465 per year in fuel costs with the Bolt.   However the Bolt base price is $41,780 minus the Camry's base of $23,845.   Difference is $17,935.   $17,935 / $465 = 38...    So, it would take you 38 years of driving to break even...  38 years..!!!!!

Oh and please do not bring up the $7,000 tax credit to me.   I'm retired so i don't pay $7,000 in taxes to use that credit.   Also, i find it objectionable that we give people wealthy enough to spend $41,700 on a compact economy car a tax break.   That means the guy who cant afford it is subsidizing the wealthier buyers.   Sumeting wong here !

Now, if you want to claim that the Bolts performance beats the Camrys 4 cylinder engine.   Ok lets do the math for the V6 Camry...it gets 26 MPG combined...so it would consume $1,057 dollars worth of gas.   It costs $34,000 or $7,780 dollars cheaper so $7,780 / 1057 = 7.3 years to break even...but then the Camry its a much larger more luxurious car.   

Lets do a Hyundai Tucson which is a hatch back like the bolt.   With optional 2.4 liter 181 hp i'm sure it would keep up with the bolt with epa of 26 combined and price of $26,550.   Fuel would cost $1057 difference in cost is $15,230 / 2057 = 14.4 years to break even.    ( i used $2.75 per gallon for all computations...and again did not factor in the higher sales tax on the Bolt or the cost of financing the difference....If i had the break even points would have been much higher).   

I do not doubt for one second that at some point in the future the price of electric vehicles factoring in the fuel economy will be a better buy than the gasoline equivalent...   But we still have a long long way to go from a purely economical standpoint !!   

I once sold Toyotas for a living...  had a lady come in who wanted a Hybrid Highlander...   Once i showed her the math...she quickly changed her mind and bought the V6 highlander.   At the time the break even point even with a $7,000 tax rebate was about 9 years (oh i did this because we didn't have a hybrid model in stock).

I pay $250 a month on a 15K mile per year lease that I got through Costco. I drove the car almost exactly 15K miles in the first year. The reason I did this was I was spending $600 a month on fuel to drive my truck and wearing my truck out. So with insurance / registration and electricity I am looking at $480 a month total to use this car. I am no genius, but $480 a month is cheaper than $600 a month AND I am not wearing out my very expensive truck just driving it back and forth to work. Make sense?

[anlauto]

A friend of ours has a Tesla...he charges it at home, but is also able to charge it at his work for free... I think he just bought a second one for his wife too...

[wldgtx]

We have a Ford C-Max, it is a hybrid... It is an odd looking car on the outside.  Great interior with plenty of room and nice creature comforts.  As for the gas mileage vs. electricity debate, this thing gets really nice mileage I am averaging (between battery and motor) around 50-55mpg.  That takes into account of the mileage that is only on battery as well as on motor.  Not sure of the impact on electricity bill, but it cannot be much.

I love the push button start feature.  I am not sure what the OP meant by idling?  Perhaps referring to the "lumpy" idle of muscle car era... I am good either way, the technology is cool and interesting.  My friend has a Tesla P85 whatever... and it is fast.  But he loves to drive in the Challenger or the Grand National as they are more raw and these cars instantly take you back to a place in your mind.  The new cars don't and probably will never do that since they do not represent what the older muscle cars did.

[ledphoot]

BTW - I hate government subsidies that are used to encourage people's behavior... I agree our government shouldn't be doing this. BUT... When you consider how much money I pay in taxes (A LOT) I have ZERO problem taking advantage of a government program to get some of MY MONEY back.

Just to poke at you a little, I got $10K in tax credit applied to the lease of this car thanks to California's subsidy on top of the federal subsidy. Additionally I got a $700 Costco gift card and a $500 PG&E rebate, which I used to purchase my clipper creek charging unit that I installed myself. Additionally I get to drive in the carpool lane all by myself which saves me a ~10 minutes each way on my commute, how do you put a dollar figure on 20 minutes of your time each and every day? Remember thats about two hours a week. It adds up.

I don't consider my Bolt a performance car but it handles pretty good and it is quite fast. Consider 0-60 in 6.5 seconds.. That's stock 440 e-body territory. ANY Tesla will lay waste to most E-Body's. I wouldn't line up against one with a 500HP e-body, it'd be embarrassing. Would I trade my Cuda for a Tesla? No.. But we are talking performance and the numbers do not lie.

Yeah what a terrible deal I got... The economics just don't work.. Meh. Would it have been cheaper to buy a Camry and drive it for years and years? YES.. Would it make sense for me? Nope, not really.. Next car will be electric too.

[anlauto]

I will never own any car that isn't made by FCA. If and when Chrysler makes an electric car I'll stick with my gas guzzling RAM 

[ledphoot]

I don't really care what people drive, that's like politics and religion, do what YOU believe is right. I have been waiting to see if FCA will really get in the electric game. They have that little 500E, which isn't really a contender IMHO. If they made an E-Cat Challenger or Charger that could go toe to toe with a Tesla at a marginally better price I'd buy it.

It's interesting to look at the strategies of the big car companies. All the goodness in the FCA camp comes from traditional large displacement brute force, the trucks, chargers and challengers with big motors are all pretty sweet. Ford's approach is quite different, they're looking at moderate displacement turbocharged motors in lighter vehicles, the Raptor and Mustangs are awesome vehicles. . GM is going to go electric. Toyota is all about their hybrid platform. Honda isn't really innovating they're following the if it ain't broke don't fix it approach.

As for the new tech, it has its problems. My Ram started leaving the radio on the other day. It's gotta go back to the dealership for a software update. The Bolt has a recall that required a software update. There will be risks to consider with regards to how computerized our vehicles are and whether the manufactures took steps to secure the systems that enable all this tech. Hackers are smart bastards, so I may one day regret my choice to follow the high tech path. Time will tell.

[chargerdon]

Ok...Sorry i rattled your chain ledphoot...  apparently your opinion is for me to stick my math...   Understood...  But here is some more for you...   Sell that truck since you cant afford the gas to drive it and it is still costing you depreciation, license, title per year sitting in the driveway.   

Here in NC average price of a gallon of gas is $2.75   Now you said you put just under 15,000 on the leased vehicle...So i assume that meant that you were putting 15,000 a year on your truck or 1,250 miles per month.   Now $600 per month at  2.75 per gallon means you were buying 218 gallons a month.   1250 / 218 = 5.7 MPG...   What is this truck?  A Full ton double wheelie?? 

Under any NORMAL circumstance the cost to purchase and operate an electric vehicle is more than the EQUIVALENT gas model car.   End of story...   However, it wont always be that way...they are catching up fast.    Yes, in the mean time there is a LOT of subsidies for those who want to be leading edge...  from rebates to free electricity at work (instead of a raise) to recharge them.   

[chargerdon]

Somewhere in this thread somebody said that they didn't notice much change in their electric bill once they got their electric vehicle. 

This got me to thinking..   Chevy web site says that the bolt will go 25 miles on a 1 hour charge using a 230v 32 amp charger.    Doing the math that means that it takes 7.36 Kilowats for that 1 hour...   average cost for a kilowatt across the US is 12 cents per kilowatt..   So, on average in us that means that 25 miles will cost you 12x7.36 or about 88 cents.   Pretty cheap !!

With average cost of a gallon of gas being $2.90 in the us (here in NC its 2.75).   Doing that math the car would get about 82 MPGe.   So Ledphoot you are right on with your 80 MPGe statement.   

It is curious however, that the EPA says the city/highway for the bolt is 119 MPGe combined.   Id love to see that math!!  I guess it all depends on what state you live in...   I.e Here in NC gas averages right now about 2.75 and electricity is 11.43 per killowatt.   Meanwhile the average cost of gasoline in california is $350 while electricity is 19.65 cents per kilowatt.   Whew...  those calculation for MPGe will vary wildly per state.   

Electric cars are coming..  AND when i can afford one...maybe ill buy one ...

[Katfish]

I agree electric is the short term future, just not economically feasible yet.
I'm an engineer and work at a company with >3000 other engineers at the site.
They installed 10 charging stations, no one used them.  They are slowly removing them 1 by 1 to free up the parking spaces because we're so over crowded.  Down to only 5 charging stations and shrinking.
All us nerdy cost conscious engineers have done the math and it doesn't work.
The few that do park there are the VP's with their Telsa's and the money doesn't matter to them.

Longer term hydrogen is the answer.  Electric grid can't handle a completely electrical car situation.
Not to mention the charging, who's going to sit at a 'gas" station for 45 minutes to charge their car?

So unless there's a huge leap in battery technology, hydrogen is the future.

[ledphoot]

It's all good man, I am not rattled at all... It's not just about the money, I can afford to own and drive a hellcat as a daily driver if I want to. My truck is a TRUCK, not a commuter car. I use it for camping, hauling stuff, towing etc. When I need a truck I want it ready to go at all times, the intent is for it to last at least 12-15 years and not be a pile of crap before that. My last truck was a '99 RAM 2500 Diesel and I sold it in 2015 with 280K miles on it when it started going in to the more maintenance that it's worth stage of life.

Gas cost $3.65 a gallon here in the Bay Area, I was putting 22K miles a year on the truck, I now put 5K a year on it, it gets about 14 MPG thanks to the modifications I have made to it negatively impacting the once respectable 18MPG it originally delivered.

The Bolt is disposable, thus the lease. I don't have to do much of any maintenance to it, there's no oil to change and I won't likely wear out the brakes.  The solo commuter lane was a big selling point for me, I hate being stopped in traffic. I like the tech and like I said I may build my own electric car for fun. They're really not all that complicated.

Battery technology and charging will improve dramatically in the next five years. Hydrogen is GREAT, we considered the Toyota Mirai, I could have made it work with my commute / available filling stations. I'd love to see Hydrogen step up, more filling stations and more vehicles. The incentive of basically free fuel for the life of the lease was enticing but the Costco deal on the Bolt was too good to pass up.

I will be building my own version of the Tesla PowerWall soon and putting up solar, I know the ROI will be ~10-12 years, but I like the idea of being basically off the grid and I like tinkering on projects like these.

As to 119MPGe? LMFAO yeah right. But then again, I am not the typical user, all of my driving is at higher speeds, with hills, curvy roads and I seriously beat the snot out of this car every single day. I've had guys in dialed up auto-x cars comment on how shocked they were that I could stick to them on Bear Creek Road... I should try to see if I can get better mileage by driving like a sane person, but then I wouldn't be LedPhoot would I?

[ledphoot]

Pretty soon steering wheels will be optional or non-existent.. how do you guys feel about that?

[Brads70]

on a side note it seems signal lights appear to have gone extinct, especially on BMW's and  Mercedes.
Which is kinda weird figuring what they cost, one would think they wouldn't need to cut corners on those cars?    ( pardon the pun)