Stallantis and chrysler vehicles

[JH27N0B]

I work for a truck OEM and from what I see and hear at work, EV is pretty much being forced on the industry by government.  It's not like customers are driving the demand saying they don't like diesel and EV sounds much more cost effective and reliable for their use.
Same thing is happening with cars.  Most people don't find them practical for their use, and those that do I believe also have gas vehicles to use instead of 100% relying on their EV.
But standards being imposed on auto makers mean they have to sell mostly EVs in the near future to meet the standards.
I personally think it's going to all end badly.
At some point I think there will vehicles powered by something other than ICE that everyone wants, that won't be EV either, but the technology to do that hasn't been developed yet. Innovation and progress take time.

[chargerdon]

tparker

Well, live and learn.   I've lived in the east coast my entire life, and did not realize that California has banned the sale of gasoline powered lawn mowers.   Now that is kinda ridiculous...   i once read that cow and chicken shit put more ozone into the atmosphere than automobiles do.   lol...   Also, living in North Carolina the price of regular unleaded has dropped to around $2.89 at most stations around Raleigh. 

Despite the cheap gas four of my golf buddies have bought BEV vehicles so far and claim to love them.   Two are Tesla's one Hyundai Ioniq and one Chevy Bolt.  I drove the Bolt...its fun...instantaneous acceleration handles well etc.  The Bolt owner is a lot like me, retired, owns his own home and he had a level 2 charger installed in his garage...free...courtesy of the local power company.   Drives it to the golf course and back and into his garage and simply plugs it in and has it set to begin charging after mid night and its always at 90% in the morning.   Actually the Bolt is his wifes car.  His car was an Alph Romeo SUV but he has ordered a Tesla model 3 long range with dual motors.  His longest trip is around 200 miles and he knows where there is a Tesla Super Charging station around half way.  One of the other guys bought a Tesla Model 3 with dual motors...  he says its ridiculously quick...oh and his other car that he drives in nice weather is a 2008 Corvette convertible. 

Where we live we are about 30 miles from Duke Energy Nuclear power plant.  We pay 14.5 cents per KWH and have never experienced any black outs.   Altho when we have bad storms (Raleigh area is regularly affected by hurricanes off shore...) ive lost power for several hours...worst was two days...   

Being 76 ill probably never own a BEV as i always buy 6-12 year old cars and i love a convertible for my daily driver 2012 Chrysler 200 Limited Convertible with the 3.6 V6 ...great running car.   

[captcolour]

I think the root of the matter is that anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that EV's are not "the" answer.  Mining lithium, disposing of batteries, and relying on fossil fuels for the grid are all still bad for the environment.  So forcing OEMs to sell EVs and ultimately forcing people to buy EVs is wrong, and a lot of people see this and push back.  Offering them as an option where they make sense is fine, but don't force a bandaid. Hopefully there is a better solution in the future (hydrogen?).  IMHO, EVs are not it.

[chargerdon]

I just now did a google on electric production by source.   Here is what i found...
40% is by natural gas
20% coal  (used to be number one, but is shrinking rapidly)
21% renewable Hydro
15% renewables

Natural gas known reserves are enough to last approximately 90 years, and that is the known reserves.  Some estimates say that there is enough natural gas to last hundreds of years, and it is CLEAN burning.  US is a huge producer of natural gas.   Then there are the renewables, i live in sunny NC, and near me 5 years ago an electric company put in a solar energy station, that produces enough electricity to power a small town.   There are many of the solar stations going in, and they just sit there and produce electricity.   It would go into the renewables category.

I know this...a natural gas power plant and other sources can produce electricity for a BEV far, far more efficiently than burning gasoline in an ICE.   

So, if your worried about a break thru to produce energy by some mythical power source still to be discovered...your right...but right now BEV work !!   

 

[chargerdon]

Getting back to Stellantis and Chrysler.   Last night i partially watched a movie called Towmorrowland...  It starts off with the 1963 Worlds Fair in New York.  I remember as a 16 year old going there with my parents...the exhibit that excited me the most was the Chrysler Turbine Car exhibit...there they had some of the 63 Turbine cars, and if you waited in line you could get a brief ride in one of them. 

Wow...from Innovative Chrysler and the Turbine cars to probably going out of business...how sad !! 

[JH27N0B]

I just now did a google on electric production by source.   Here is what i found...
40% is by natural gas
20% coal  (used to be number one, but is shrinking rapidly)
21% renewable Hydro
15% renewables

Natural gas known reserves are enough to last approximately 90 years, and that is the known reserves.  Some estimates say that there is enough natural gas to last hundreds of years, and it is CLEAN burning.  US is a huge producer of natural gas.   Then there are the renewables, i live in sunny NC, and near me 5 years ago an electric company put in a solar energy station, that produces enough electricity to power a small town.   There are many of the solar stations going in, and they just sit there and produce electricity.   It would go into the renewables category.

I know this...a natural gas power plant and other sources can produce electricity for a BEV far, far more efficiently than burning gasoline in an ICE.   

So, if your worried about a break thru to produce energy by some mythical power source still to be discovered...your right...but right now BEV work !!   

 

Something isn't working with your Google.  Where's nuke?  Nuclear generates close to 20% of our electricity in the US.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

Unfortunately the same scare monger crowd that claims global warming is going to kill us all are also fervently opposed to nuclear power. Which is tragic because nuke is the only carbon free 24/7 electrical generation source practical for any area of the country (for example I live in the Midwest, and I'm not aware that any power is or could be generated by hydro here.  Wind turbines and solar only work when the sun is shining and wind is blowing). Only one new nuke plant has gone online in the last 10 years, yet several have been decommissioned. In my area Nuke provides much if not most of our electricity. Exelon recently threatened to close the plants but thankfully a deal was reached to keep them open. Of course now our rates are higher, but with recent sub zero temps and my boiler cranking away and space heaters running by me when I sit at my desk, I feel like we dodged a bullet. How much I'd be suffering from blackouts in this brutal weather if we didn't have our reliable nuke plants generating our electricity here!!!
I'm thinking of retiring and then moving. I am considering needs and wants for my next home. Big garage of course! I don't want to be a prepper, but still think I need a big fireplace in my new home for heat if electricity reliability gets sketchy. And maybe adjacent to woods where I can get firewood. A well, for water, and nearby areas that have game and fish.  Current policy seems based on a lot of wishful thinking, and as I said before, I'm afraid it won't end well.

[Gross Polluter]

The gov't trying to engineer a market for EV's right now feels like putting the cart before the horse.  The abandonment of nuclear power makes the hyperbole about climate change, the curious fixation with EV's, and heavy handed and costly government actions all seem insincere.  In the 70's, guitar players told us nuclear power was polluting.  Then they said it was too dangerous.  But when it became clear how safe and clean it really is compared to the alternative, the same people told us it didn't generate enough profit to be sustainable, and it was too expensive to be subsidized.  Now they're in the gov't and committing us to subsidize every other possible solution with amounts of tax money that dwarf the costs of nuclear.  So much for the concerns about costs. 

The argument "we have to do something" relies too much on hippie logic for me.  Even if you accept climate change is real, human caused, etc., we should all demand that our money be put towards solutions that will actually have a substantial effect on global climate.  Especially when it's unlikely the largest polluting countries won't follow us down the path to financial ruin.  Vehicle emissions as a source of CO2 is low on the list.  And as others have said, EV's are far from non polluting.  I recently read that when you consider the amount of fossil fuels necessary for extraction, processing, manufacturing, etc. it almost takes the lifespan of an EV to break even on CO2.  So they're forcing individual drivers in the US (and maybe in Europe?) to buy EV's before they've resolved the fallout of abandoning nuclear energy.  Solar and wind power can't be the primary source of energy until it can be stored with batteries and that technology is also probably still decades away. 

[RUNCHARGER]

Natural gas? Great stuff, all of us heat our homes and water with it. 40 Years ago the local taxi cab company was running it's vehicles on it. We've got tons of it and are going to export it to the countries that are telling us that we are "dirty". And guess what? Our commie leaders are outlawing it for us to heat our homes and water with. If you're building a new house, pretty soon you won't be able to do it with natural gas. They tell you a heat pump is the answer, except unless you want your house warmer than about 40f in the winter that is.
I believe no one in power and believe this is all greed by the world elite. This is a lot bigger issue than it looks on the outside, I think Bob Lutz is in the know more than most and if you listen to what he says is going to be in place in a short while for transportation it all comes together.

[captcolour]

I just now did a google on electric production by source.   Here is what i found...
40% is by natural gas
20% coal  (used to be number one, but is shrinking rapidly)
21% renewable Hydro
15% renewables

Natural gas known reserves are enough to last approximately 90 years, and that is the known reserves.  Some estimates say that there is enough natural gas to last hundreds of years, and it is CLEAN burning.  US is a huge producer of natural gas.   Then there are the renewables, i live in sunny NC, and near me 5 years ago an electric company put in a solar energy station, that produces enough electricity to power a small town.   There are many of the solar stations going in, and they just sit there and produce electricity.   It would go into the renewables category.

I know this...a natural gas power plant and other sources can produce electricity for a BEV far, far more efficiently than burning gasoline in an ICE.   

So, if your worried about a break thru to produce energy by some mythical power source still to be discovered...your right...but right now BEV work !!   

 

Something isn't working with your Google.  Where's nuke?  Nuclear generates close to 20% of our electricity in the US.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

Unfortunately the same scare monger crowd that claims global warming is going to kill us all are also fervently opposed to nuclear power. Which is tragic because nuke is the only carbon free 24/7 electrical generation source practical for any area of the country (for example I live in the Midwest, and I'm not aware that any power is or could be generated by hydro here.  Wind turbines and solar only work when the sun is shining and wind is blowing). Only one new nuke plant has gone online in the last 10 years, yet several have been decommissioned. In my area Nuke provides much if not most of our electricity. Exelon recently threatened to close the plants but thankfully a deal was reached to keep them open. Of course now our rates are higher, but with recent sub zero temps and my boiler cranking away and space heaters running by me when I sit at my desk, I feel like we dodged a bullet. How much I'd be suffering from blackouts in this brutal weather if we didn't have our reliable nuke plants generating our electricity here!!!
I'm thinking of retiring and then moving. I am considering needs and wants for my next home. Big garage of course! I don't want to be a prepper, but still think I need a big fireplace in my new home for heat if electricity reliability gets sketchy. And maybe adjacent to woods where I can get firewood. A well, for water, and nearby areas that have game and fish.  Current policy seems based on a lot of wishful thinking, and as I said before, I'm afraid it won't end well.

I agree.  Nuclear power is the current best source of electricity.  Look what the Germans did shutting down all of theirs and relying on Russia for power.  Good plan!

[chargerdon]

Ahhh   Nuclear Energy...   What happened here ??   

Two things, Three Mile Island incident in 1979, I worked for 27 years for Westinghouse, and my brother was the Controller for the Nuclear Energy Division of Westinghouse during that time.  He used to get so mad about Three Mile Island (Babcock Wilcock not Westinghouse design) saying that the Westinghouse designed Nuclear reactors were so well designed with so many safety features that it couldn't possibly happen to a Westinghouse designed plant. If my memory serves me the Three Mile Island near disaster after investigation turned out to be a huge human error by its operators.   It didn't help any that Holywood had just released in 79 the movie "The China Syndrome".  Made no difference the contracts to build more plants stopped overnight and Westinghouse nearly went bankrupt !! 

Then seven years later a second and far worse incident occurred at Chernobil (built by the Soviet Union) in 1987.   Wow...that one spewed radioactive material into the air and was an actual melt down.  Then 13 years roughly later the Fukushima power plant in Japan suffered massive damage when an earthquake disrupted the power supply needed to cool the reactors.

About 10 miles from where i used to live in Western PA, Westinghouse operated a Nuclear Energy research center in a town called Waltz Mills, PA.   Their scientists were working of Fusion Reactors or otherwise know as fast breeder reactors.   With those, the plant would produce more plutonium was used in the generation of electricity and any waste material was burned up in the reactor.  I.e self feeding and clean.   What did they do with the nuclear waste that they created there?   They buried it in 50 gallon steel drums in the land surrounding the plant.   My brother used to joke that it glowed green at night.   Highly illegal i might add...and steel drums tend to rust and disintegrate...big problem still unsolved. 

So why not nuclear energy...simple...most of the voters simply are scared to death that the next "mistake" would occur near them and thus the NRC put out laws about the construction that are near impossible to overcome financially..  So, they are basically no longer financially successful.   Oh...Westinghouse is still building nuclear plants overseas where the laws are far less stringent.   

So, no matter how safe you make a Nuclear Power Plant fear planted in the voters minds will not listen to how safe they are...and history kinda proves them right!!! 

Meanwhile, i live in North Carolina where Duke Energy has 5 nuclear power plants, the last went on line in 1987 bout 30 miles from the Duke Energy Nuclear plant in New Hill, NC known as the Harris plant.  I have no fear about that plant...but..then...i knew a lot about it having worked for the Westinghouse Nuclear Energy Division.   Sigh...forget it !!!  Today its just the opposite, as a plant reaches its time for Refueling they are instead being shutdown because of the cost to refuel.   Hey, which of you want to wear a protective suit and go into a reactor to clean it up, wearing a Dosimeter to measure the amount of radiation you have absorbed.   Those people where called "jumpers" and if you volunteered to be one the pay was substantial for approximately 15 mins of work, before you had to leave the vicinity for a month !!! 

[RzeroB]

I hate to say it, but I think Dodge was on the way out long before the push for EV's. I think it was all part of the parent company's "master plan". They spun off products to other divisions (profitable trucks to the stand alone Ram division in 2009 and the granddaddy of all minivans to the Chrysler division in 2020) leaving Dodge with the Durango, the short-lived Dart II and the "brotherhood of muscle" siblings the Challenger and Charger. Only the "brothers" took off, so Dodge rode that train for all that it was worth! The Challenger went 17 years without a major restyle - that's a LONG time! Even though the body was getting long in the tooth Dodge kept it interesting by pushing more and more power out of it's engines. Meanwhile the writing was on the wall and other manufacturers were starting to develop new products, but not Dodge. They had a sales winner with the Challenger and Charger so they kept riding that horsepower train until it finally ran out of track. But now that the "brothers" are gone what do they have left? The Durango and the new Hornet. Neither one of them seem to be much of a sales sensation. I don't think it will be too long before they are dropped or rebranded as Rams and the Dodge division gets shuttered and goes the way of Plymouth leaving Chrysler with Ram and Jeep as its only product lines. Just saying 

[70vert]

it does seem the wind is slowly shifting, at least with car makers. Saw that Ford has discontinued the F150 EV and focusing back on gas trucks. And GM is also shifting production back. Even Hertz is returning thousands of EV and replacing with gas.

I only hope Stelantis/Chrysler has a way back.

[chargerdon]

Just watched the NEW Stellantis Dodge Charger release video on the dodge.com website.   Wow, their pulling out all the stops to the past.   Dodge bros, Fratzog, etc, etc.   

Then i watched Uncle Tonys garage critique of the car and the release.  Talk about opposite polar responses.   Uncle Tony loves most of the PRIMARY ideas about the car...but...he destroys it on the fact that it doesnt know what it is.   I.e...   The fake engine noise...the fake simulation of gear shifts, the Transmission lever on a car that actually doesnt really have a transmission.

He predicts that this is the end of the Dodge name plate, because of all the gimicktry.   He also berates Tim because he said its a performance car...but he estimates a 1/4 mile time (6,000 lb curb weight with 600 HP) as being in the mid 11's or worse and the Tesla Plaid has been clocked at between 8.8 and 9.2). 

I sure hope Uncle Tony is wrong...tho...i tend to agree with him.   

[dodj]

I really like the idea of EV's. Went out looking to buy one for local commuting. But when I did the math...with the extra I would have to pay to initially buy the EV, I could buy an equivalent ICE car and drive it for 7-8 years before I hit the break even point. So...I'm buying another gas car. I'll look at EV again in 7-8 years