1970 'Cuda 440, stock rebuilt front suspension, QA1 non-adjustable shocks, new motor mounts, TTI 1-7/8" headers. As can be seen in the attached pictures, my idler arm is rubbing/hitting my TTI headers. TTI doesn't say anything about interference issues on their web-site. Before I take a hammer to the headers to dimple them, does anybody have any suggestions as to how to increase the clearance between the two? :dunno: In doing an internet search, I see that while not a common problem it is also not an uncommon one either. One of the most common suggested solutions is to use a Moog idler arm which is what I have, yet they still hit. Is there any suspension adjustment I can make to solve this issue? :notsure:
Any and all other suggestions are welcome. I really don't want to take a hammer to my new headers. :headbang:
Instead of using a hammer, i have successfully used a ball joint press or similar large "C" along with a half-moon from an exhaust clamp to move tubes. It's easier to do on the car, if you can get to it...those headers are thick and take a hard hit to dent with a hammer.
I'm looking at an idler arm in the pic you've posted but the title states pitman arm is the trouble... Are they both hitting ??? If it is the pitman arm hitting you're committed to massaging the tubes...First check the drag link and see if it's level between the pitman arm and the idler arm...Ideally it should be dead level but depending on the aftermarket parts it might not be...
If it's the idler arm giving the trouble you can possibly adjust it down a touch by loosening the bolt and trying to get some clearance then re-tighten.. If it's got the washers for the shaft you could get different washers and offset the arm that way to gain clearance also...And as a last resort to NOT denting the header I've seen where some have filed the mounting hole so you can adjust it down but as I've stated earlier you don't want to create a situation where the drag link is too far from level when the link is centered...
Quote from: screamindriver on November 21, 2017, 08:11:26 PM
I'm looking at an idler arm in the pic you've posted but the title states pitman arm is the trouble... Are they both hitting ??? If it is the pitman arm hitting you're committed to massaging the tubes...First check the drag link and see if it's level between the pitman arm and the idler arm...Ideally it should be dead level but depending on the aftermarket parts it might not be...
If it's the idler arm giving the trouble you can possibly adjust it down a touch by loosening the bolt and trying to get some clearance then re-tighten.. If it's got the washers for the shaft you could get different washers and offset the arm that way to gain clearance also...And as a last resort to NOT denting the header I've seen where some have filed the mounting hole so you can adjust it down but as I've stated earlier you don't want to create a situation where the drag link is too far from level when the link is centered...
Scremindriver, you are correct, I got the two mixed up in my old age. It is the idler arm that is hitting, not the pitman arm. Corrections made to my post. Thanks for the heads up. :bigthumb:
Another thing to look at is the condition of the motor mount, the passenger side mount is often compressed, a new mount might raise that side a little & thats all you need is a little....
you can take a die grinder to the lower hole for the idler oval it slightly towards the K frame & tip the idler arm down away from the header
Quote from: Chryco Psycho on November 22, 2017, 06:14:44 AM
you can take a die grinder to the lower hole for the idler oval it slightly towards the K frame & tip the idler arm down away from the header
You can... It will effect steering geometry.. Whether it effects it in a good or bad way would require more study...LOL.... If you do choose to do this the normal way to make sure the slotted hole doesn't allow the bolt to slide is to add a washer & tack weld the washer to the K member...
Yes, but re-angling the pitman an equal amount to restore geometry is easily accomplished with shims, whereas re-angling the idler requires grinding.
In fact, depending on how close the idler is, and it looks pretty minimal, it might gain just enough clearance by dropping the pitman angle instead. It isn't ideal, but I've seen plenty of stock mopars with these angles that don't match and it has a minimal impact on normal street driving.
In the thought of a new motor mount, you could also shim the engine block up slightly with the mount on that side. Add a washer or two to one of the isolator bolts.
Quote from: 1 Wild R/T on November 22, 2017, 06:02:29 AM
Another thing to look at is the condition of the motor mount, the passenger side mount is often compressed, a new mount might raise that side a little & thats all you need is a little....
1Wild R/T, both the motor mounts are brand new, as are all the front suspension parts.
Thanks for the suggestions. what if I ground off 1/32" to 1/8' off the idler arm itself where it hits the header. :thinking:I have no idea if this part of the idler arm is solid or hollow. Just a thought. :notsure:
Reangling the steering box only makes the effect equal from side to side it doesn't change the fact the geometry has been altered.... But as mentioned before it's possible the geometry will be improved... (not likely) Bringing the drag link down means in order to set the Toe to spec the tie rod needs to be shortened... Typically on Mopar's the tie rods are already to short which is why a bump steer correction kit will give you a way to drop the outboard tie rod location which will lengthen the tie rod...
I had to hammer one tube to gain clearance to the Milodon road race pan. Totally understand your hesitation in banging up brand new shinny and gorgeous looking header. But sometime you have to bite the bullet if no way out. I touched up the area with high temp silver paint for exhaust pipe.
Still looking for an answer regarding grinding off 1/32 to 1/8' off the top of the idler arm as shown in above post/pictures.
:help:
Shim the motor mount... I wouldn't suggest grinding on the idler....
Quote from: 1 Wild R/T on November 22, 2017, 08:56:12 AM
Shim the motor mount... I wouldn't suggest grinding on the idler....
Easier said than done. Any suggestions on what to use for shims and how do I keep them in place?
Quote from: usraptor on November 22, 2017, 09:50:48 AM
Quote from: 1 Wild R/T on November 22, 2017, 08:56:12 AM
Shim the motor mount... I wouldn't suggest grinding on the idler....
Easier said than done. Any suggestions on what to use for shims and how do I keep them in place?
Washers are easy and cheap.
IMO just dent the header. The engine is going to move on the mounts when launching or making hard shifts and it could contact again. The last thing you want is locked steering because the header came over on it weird.
The dent will not lose and power and it's the most for sure way to know you maintain clearance regardless where the steering or the engine is. If you press it like I mentioned, you may not even crack the ceramic coating much at all
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Im cheering for you. Them there headers cost a small fortune. I hope you can find another solution. TTI sent me the wrong headers last month. Maybe confirm you have the right part numbers on them? They corrected their mistake.
Shimming motor mounts, the shim goes between the mount & the bracket, make the shim out of 2" x 1/4" steel flat bar.... A 1' piece of material from the scrap bin of any welding shop will make four shims..... Cut it into 3" lengths, locate & drill one 1/2" or slightly bigger hole....
Scroll down to shim packs, although these are out of stock that is what I would go with.
http://www.engine-swaps.com/Pages/ProductsYear/67.72aBody.html
Before you take a tool to the headers, is the motor in the correct location? Experienced this w/ my 451, Dougs headers, and the L-side TB. Made my own shims.
center of crankshaft to top of k-frame: 5-1/4"
center of crankshaft to each frame rail, difference should be 2-1/2" (engine is offset towards R-side)
From TTI instruction:
First check your Engine Location
K members are not all identical and the dimensions must be checked to
ensure proper fit. Check your engine location prior to installation of your TTI Headers.
TTI Headers were designed to fit with the engines located to the factory specifications.
If the engine is not located correctly in the chassis, the headers will not fit properly.
If necessary, place shims between the insulator assembly and the K-frame mounting pad
to achieve the proper dimensions. Shim kits and engine mounts can be purchased from
Schumacher Creative Services of Seattle, WA (206) 364-7151
Thank You guys! :thankyou: :worship: I will either buy or make some shims to solve the problem. Your advice, as always is much appreciated to this novice! :twothumbsup:
I made shims out of some scrap metal plate, 1/16 to about 1/8. Cut to about the size and width of the motor mount. Drill a hole for the motor mount stud. Only have to lift the engine slightly to drop in place. I held it with a magnet while lowering the engine. Actually did this for the motor mount curvature issue. It would not work for my interference between header and oil pan but your interference is with the suspension.
Quote from: 1 Wild R/T on November 22, 2017, 07:21:49 AM
Reangling the steering box only makes the effect equal from side to side it doesn't change the fact the geometry has been altered.... But as mentioned before it's possible the geometry will be improved... (not likely) Bringing the drag link down means in order to set the Toe to spec the tie rod needs to be shortened... Typically on Mopar's the tie rods are already to short which is why a bump steer correction kit will give you a way to drop the outboard tie rod location which will lengthen the tie rod...
I get that and in my cars I alter the set up to create the best and most equal geometry possible. However, it has been my experience that many stock mopars have anywhere from .125 to .625 inch worth of deviation in height between the idler and pitman arms because the idler position is fixed and the steering box is shimmed. Ideal, no, detrimental, unlikely, but it can be fixed. To go all the way to a bump steer correction kit for a condition the factory shipped out regularly is obviously a good, but an expensive solution, and may not be necessary, especially if the car is used as a casual cruiser. If USRaptor wants to know if it will improve the geometry, a simple measurement between the ground and the pitman and idler will immediately tell if there is a difference between them and if the adjusting of the height pitman can either proceed or should be avoided. Yes, mopar tie rods are short, but these too can be modified to gain the extra thread adjustment if needed by trimming off some of the ends.
Quote from: usraptor on November 22, 2017, 08:42:52 AM
Still looking for an answer regarding grinding off 1/32 to 1/8' off the top of the idler arm as shown in above post/pictures.
There is probably enough casting flash on those to do a /32 and squeak by for now. But over time, the motor mount will compress further and create interference again. getting too aggressive on grinding could lead to a thin spot and failure.
For shims, you can remove the isolator and stack washers on it's studs, which reduces the contact area. You can also add flat stock to the brackets to allow the isolator to rest on them. This is how I did my spacers to have a greater contact area between the mount and isolator. A lot of work, yes.
You also could try loosening the engine and trans mount and lifting and resetting the engine, possibly rolling it more to one side by a fraction of an inch. There is not a lot of slack in between all the brackets, isolators, and mounts, but it may all add up to enough if they can all move a little.
If I was in your shoes, I'd first check ground to joint height of both the pitman and idler where the connect to the center link. If the pitman is higher, then shim the steering box down and inspect your idler contact. If they are equal,IMO, you could still shim the box down to see if it improves and not be any worse off than factory. However, in the interest of preserving good geometry, you could leave them as is and try repositioning the engine or shimming the motor mount(s).
In addition to the mentioned solutions , you could also shim the transmission. It's far enough away and little goes a long way..... :alan2cents:
What is the condition of the transmission mount?" :thinking:
I had the same issue. I just turned the idler out of the way and hit it with a rounded off steel rod and three pound hammer until the header dimpled enough to easily clear the idler. It took 10 minutes and I have no issues. I have never had anyone look at my car and ask if my header has a dimple. If your car is a correct trailer queen show car then go through the work to shim the motor, but if you drive it and are not getting it judged, keep it simple. You won't care eventually, especially if your car is working correctly.
Quote from: Brads70 on November 22, 2017, 03:35:38 PM
What is the condition of the transmission mount?" :thinking:
It's new.
Quote from: jordan on November 22, 2017, 03:42:54 PM
I had the same issue. I just turned the idler out of the way and hit it with a rounded off steel rod and three pound hammer until the header dimpled enough to easily clear the idler. It took 10 minutes and I have no issues. I have never had anyone look at my car and ask if my header has a dimple. If your car is a correct trailer queen show car then go through the work to shim the motor, but if you drive it and are not getting it judged, keep it simple. You won't care eventually, especially if your car is working correctly.
I agree. I was driving mine yesterday and encountered an unavoidable rock in the road, I added another custom dent to my TTI header. :stayinlane: Stuff happens!
I would just pull the idle out see if you cam shim it down in the mount or bend the ears of the mount down to lower the arm or oval the lower hole a little & twist the arm downward before I would try anything else , shimmint the back of the trans should help out too
Wow I was able to copy this from my Photobucket account! Hope it helps....
Thanks Chyrco and Brad. Brad re picture one, is it showing that the distances between L1, L2 and R1 and R2 to the floor are the same or is there some exact measurement that does with them? If there is an exact measurement, I would think things like ride height, tire size, etc. could effect that measurement.
Re photo no. 3, I can tell for sure, but the part they are saying to shim, is that the steering box? :notsure:
thanks again.
Quote from: usraptor on November 24, 2017, 11:41:11 AM
Thanks Chyrco and Brad. Brad re picture one, is it showing that the distances between L1, L2 and R1 and R2 to the floor are the same or is there some exact measurement that does with them? If there is an exact measurement, I would think things like ride height, tire size, etc. could effect that measurement.
Re photo no. 3, I can tell for sure, but the part they are saying to shim, is that the steering box? :notsure:
thanks again.
No I would agree with you tire size, torsion bar settings etc.... will determine heights just as long as they are equal is optimal . I would try a 1/8" shim in the transmission, I bet that would do it for you as your not hitting by much ?
Yes the part to shim is the steering box. ( if necessary)
No I would agree with you tire size, torsion bar settings etc.... will determine heights just as long as they are equal is optimal . I would try a 1/8" shim in the transmission, I bet that would do it for you as your not hitting by much ?
Yes the part to shim is the steering box. ( if necessary)
[/quote]
Brad I have a question regarding shimming the transmission. First, where do you put the shims? Between the yellow trans mount and the 4-speed housing where the two bolts attach the bracket to the trans?
Please see picture where I circled the bolts in question
Thanks
Shimming at the trans isn't going to do it without causing bigger issues.... You need maybe 1/8" at the header but the contact point of the header is probably 1/4 to 1/5th of the way from the motor mounts vs 3/4-4/5 of the way from the trans mount so to get 1/8" change at the contact will require raising the trans 3/8" to 1/2"....
And yes if your shimming the trans the shims go between the pad on the trans & the mount
Quote from: usraptor on November 24, 2017, 11:41:11 AM
Thanks Chyrco and Brad. Brad re picture one, is it showing that the distances between L1, L2 and R1 and R2 to the floor are the same or is there some exact measurement that does with them? If there is an exact measurement, I would think things like ride height, tire size, etc. could effect that measurement.
Re photo no. 3, I can tell for sure, but the part they are saying to shim, is that the steering box? :notsure:
thanks again.
Correct, there is no spec on these measurements because of the variations in tire diameters and ride heights. This is also why factory ride height spec are NOT measure at the fender lip like so many people like to do. Simply put, R1 and L1 should match and R2 and L2 should match. In my experience, it is rare that these are all correct out of the factory.
Find these measurements, and we can direct you from that point.
Brad I have a question regarding shimming the transmission. First, where do you put the shims? Between the yellow trans mount and the 4-speed housing where the two bolts attach the bracket to the trans?
Please see picture where I circled the bolts in question
Thanks
[/quote]
Yes you circled the right spot/bolts. A quick way to try is to put a jack under the transmission and jack it up 1/8" and see if it helps at the header. The mount should move 1/8" no problem. Unbolt it if your worried about damaging the mount. I wouldn't go more than an 1/8" or so as it will cause other issues as 1 WildR/T mentioned.
That must not be your actual car in the picture as that mount doesn't look new to me. If you still have the old mount maybe measure and see if there is a difference in height from the old one to the new one. Quality parts are not what they used to be...... You can't rule out or trust anything these days in that regard!
Just a thought and thinking out loud. Will it make any difference in the clearance if the car is on a lift or on the ground? :notsure: (The posted pictures were taken with the car on the lift) While on the the lift, the tires/wheels, A-arms hang down. When on the ground the weight of the car is going to push them up and the angle of the tie rods is going to change and in theory would increase the clearance between the idler arm and header. However, the the idler arm is attached to the centerlink which is also attached to the steering box and both are bolted to the K-frame. Therefore, the movement/articulation of the A-arms etc probably would not increase the clearance between the idler arm and header since the center link is bolted to the K-frame via the steering box and idler arm and therefore wouldn't move with the articulation of the A-arms.
So I think I've answered my own question and being on the lift or on the ground is not going to make a difference in the clearance of the idler arm and header, correct? :thinking: :dunno:
Correct :bigthumb: