Pulling the p/s boox on my 70 Cuda and trying to disconnect the column. I am guessing the inner allen head is suppose to loosen up to release the coupler's hold on the shaft, but it won't move. Am I correct??? Any ideas on how to break it free?? Heat???
here is a closer look
I've never seen a couple like that on an E-Body. :huh: The ones I'm use to seeing use a groove to hold the coupler on with a pin. Since the one on your car used an allen bolt to squish the splines it might be bound on there. But if you are sure the allen bolt is loose, you might have to pry it off? :notsure: You can see in this photo of a stock coupler the hole where the pin goes through to lock in the groove on the steering box.
Do you have the steering column loose? It needs to be free so you don't collapse the steering shaft.
Not a great photo, but here's the groove I think your allen bolt is pressed against to hold it in place. Will the allen bolt come completely out?
the allen bolt is not loose.......wanted to be sure that was what had to happen. I tried and it's on there pretty tight. Felt like I was about to break the socket first. If that is what needs to happen I'll get the damn thing off if it kills me :pullinghair:
Aftermarket coupler. First remove the lock nut on the allen head, then remove the allen head. Spray a little WD or what ever you have in the hole. Start tapping it with a hammer as you turn the steering wheel while pulling on the column.
Do not heat it, could cause problems with seals in the box.
Yes, like Roadman said, that lock nut needs to be loosened or come off completely before the allen will come off.
Quote from: roadman on January 21, 2017, 01:22:20 PM
Aftermarket coupler. First remove the lock nut on the allen head, then remove the allen head. Spray a little WD or what ever you have in the hole. Start tapping it with a hammer as you turn the steering wheel while pulling on the column.
Do not heat it, could cause problems with seals in the box.
That's what I needed to confirm...that outside nut is a locknut. As far as causing problems with the box.....the thing is leaking like crazy which is why it is coming out and getting replaced with a Firm Feel unit.
Thanks for the info everybody!!
Quote from: mjb765 on January 21, 2017, 02:20:22 PM
the thing is leaking like crazy which is why it is coming out and getting replaced with a Firm Feel unit.
Going stage III I hope..... :andyangel:
Quote from: 303 Mopar on January 21, 2017, 04:03:41 PM
Quote from: mjb765 on January 21, 2017, 02:20:22 PM
the thing is leaking like crazy which is why it is coming out and getting replaced with a Firm Feel unit.
Going stage III I hope..... :andyangel:
was thinking stage II.....should I re-think?
Quote from: mjb765 on January 21, 2017, 04:09:04 PM
was thinking stage II.....should I re-think?
Yes, go Stage III! I did it on my Charger and it is a big difference and not too tight at all. I've heard several guys that went with Stage II and wish they went III. :bigthumb:
Another vote for Stage III :perfect10:
Has anybody taken one of there stage threes apart and compared to a stock box. What do they do to the worm gear and react springs?
I believe it's just done with shim washers....John Stuart Power Brake in Stoney Creek ON say they can do the same thing, but they need two boxes to make one :alan2cents:
I'm maybe 5 minutes from Firm Feel if anyone needs to help with anything. :bigthumb:
Quote from: Cuda Cody on January 21, 2017, 07:52:11 PM
I'm maybe 5 minutes from Firm Feel if anyone needs to help with anything. :bigthumb:
Sure can you grab about 2-3 power steering boxes for me and put them in your "carry-on" when you come to Carlisle 8) :P
Quote from: 303 Mopar on January 21, 2017, 04:13:00 PM
Quote from: mjb765 on January 21, 2017, 04:09:04 PM
was thinking stage II.....should I re-think?
Yes, go Stage III! I did it on my Charger and it is a big difference and not too tight at all. I've heard several guys that went with Stage II and wish they went III. :bigthumb:
great...more decisions......
Here's another vote for Firm Feel Stage III.
It's not even close to being to firm for me. My car is regularly street driven. I'd say it has roughly the same feel as a newer car.
OK..Got the box out...thanks for the help everybody.
Firm feel stage III will be ordered tomorrow. Also thinking about the fast ratio pitman and idler arms.
Quote from: Cuda Cody on January 21, 2017, 01:08:23 PM
Do you have the steering column loose? It needs to be free so you don't collapse the steering shaft.
Cody, can you elaborate on this comment? Your "don't collapse the steering shaft" comment has me worried as I contemplate removing my gearbox to have it rebuilt by FF. :thankyou:
Interesting coupler there on a stock box.
FF fast ratio arms on a stage III box, hmm maybe give a jingle to FF and see if it's what you expect.
:alan2cents:
Quote from: HP_Cuda on January 22, 2017, 11:03:22 AM
Interesting coupler there on a stock box.
FF fast ratio arms on a stage III box, hmm maybe give a jingle to FF and see if it's what you expect.
:alan2cents:
Was going to call them tomorrow to ask.
Firm Feel offers three Stages of "feel" on their power steering gear boxes. Some mopar guys shim their Saginaw power steering pump's flow valve to also improve "feel". My question: What is the optimum set-up for the gear box and/or power steering pump to give the best "feel"? I'm going to send my stock gearbox to FF and I have some of the shim washers for my stock Saginaw pump. I'm sure I can experiment with the shims but I will need to tell FF which stage of gear box I want. :notsure:
Quote from: mjb765 on January 22, 2017, 09:52:48 AM
OK..Got the box out...thanks for the help everybody.
Firm feel stage III will be ordered tomorrow. Also thinking about the fast ratio pitman and idler arms.
Make sure the fast ratio pitman arm will work with your set up (engine, headers, etc).
Quote from: 303 Mopar on January 22, 2017, 12:49:20 PM
Quote from: mjb765 on January 22, 2017, 09:52:48 AM
OK..Got the box out...thanks for the help everybody.
Firm feel stage III will be ordered tomorrow. Also thinking about the fast ratio pitman and idler arms.
Make sure the fast ratio pitman arm will work with your set up (engine, headers, etc).
Yep..thanks......my 383 has stock manifolds on it.
Quote from: anlauto on January 21, 2017, 07:19:41 PM
Another vote for Stage III :perfect10:
and another vote for stage 3 and the fast ratio arms while your at it! :yes:
I wonder if that coupler has something to do with why your box was leaking? The stock set up allows for some flex in and out. That u-joint does not? I mention this as I'd hate to see you install the FF box then develop a leak down the road?
Quote from: Cuda Cody on January 22, 2017, 10:14:12 AM
You can see the steering shaft pins at the 16:27 mark of this video:
https://youtu.be/49L2sIR9OYc (https://youtu.be/49L2sIR9OYc)
That's a nice video Cody.
Where can I get one of those wiring tools to disconnect the metal wiring end from the plastic bit?
Quote from: Brads70 on January 22, 2017, 07:58:17 PM
I wonder if that coupler has something to do with why your box was leaking? The stock set up allows for some flex in and out. That u-joint does not? I mention this as I'd hate to see you install the FF box then develop a leak down the road?
Yeah, with the factory coupler, the shoes move up and down inside the coupler every time the car hits a bump. The steering needs a way to absorb the body flex that happens during regular driving.
Unless you're driving exclusively on a smooth flat race track, I'd suggest switching back to the stock coupler.
Here's some more info from my car notes...
Mopar factory power steering is very low resistance and easy to operate, which is not great at higher speeds. In 1973 a firmer feel steering box became available on police cars, but these have become harder to find and are usually worn out. Firm Feel Inc has stepped up to the plate to make good steering boxes. Stage 1 is the equivalent of the factory firm feel police box. Stage 2 has a firmer feel, and Stage 3 is even more firm. Which one to get? Sales of Stage 2 and Stage 3 is about 50/50. The company usually suggests that people start with the Stage 2. It's a noticeable improvement, but it seems that most people with a Stage 2 want to step up to a Stage 3.
Steering "Feel" isn't just a product of the steering box, it's also increased by other things like smaller steering wheel diameter, more scrub radius (tire width), lower pump pressure, and fast ratio pitman arms (due to leverage).
1970, 1971, & 1972 E bodies & B bodies used a smaller diameter sector shaft, while 1973 & 1974 cars used a larger diameter sector shaft.
All of the power steering boxes were 16:1 ratio, which is 3.5 turns lock to lock. (The TA box ratio is only different due to the pitman arm)
The TA steering box used on 1970 Trans Am Mopars and some 1971 340 cars is not firm feel, and is basically made from C body stuff, but with a unique sector shaft, head assembly, and housing. It included some stops inside to make lock to lock be 2.625 turns, and came with a special fast ratio pitman arm which reduced the steering ratio to 12:1. This fast ratio pitman fits the TA boxes sector shaft, and may not fit onto other steering boxes. This factory fast ratio setup did not include a longer idler arm, so right turns were fine, but left turns more than 20 degrees produced tire scrub.
Again, Firm Feel Inc stepped up to the plate to fix the problem. They offer fast ratio pitman arms with small and large sector shaft diameters to fit many Mopars. They also have a matched idler arm to fix the tire scrub problem that the factory unit had. These Firm Feel Inc parts provide a 12:1 ratio with 2.75 turns lock to lock.
If you plan to use Firm Feel Inc's fast ratio products, the 1973 and up steering box with the larger diameter sector shaft is preferable because the longer arm increases the amount of force that the sector shaft must withstand.
For comparison...
new (2011 and up) Challengers have a 14.4:1 steering ratio with 2.75 turns lock to lock
new (2014 and up) Camaros have 16.1:1 ratio with 2.5 turns lock to lock
new (2015 and up) Mustangs have a 16:1 ratio
1988 Mustangs have 15:1
Neon's are 16:1.
The stock 16:1 power steering ratio is comparable to most modern cars.
However, the number of turns lock to lock is different, and I find that odd.
Please help me to understand what is going on here.
Let's compare an E body to a new Camaro for comparison, since both cars have 16:1 ratio.
old E bodies have 16:1 ratio with 3.5 turns lock to lock
new (2014 and up) Camaros have 16.1:1 ratio with 2.5 turns lock to lock
Lock to lock is how many full revolutions of the steering wheel are required to go from steering all the way in one direction to all the way in the other direction.
Steering wheel diameter does not change the lock to lock number. 1 revolution = 1 revolution regardless of steering wheel diameter. The steering shaft turns the same, even if the distance your hands move around the circumference of the steering wheel is different.
Front tire diameter does not change the lock to lock number. (unless your tires are so big that the hit the frame rails as a stop)
If both cars have a 16:1 ratio, but the E body can turn its steering wheel further before hitting lock, does that mean that the E body has a tighter turning radius than a new Camaro?
That seems unlikely, but what else could it be?
Quote from: Brads70 on January 22, 2017, 07:58:17 PM
and another vote for stage 3 and the fast ratio arms while your at it! :yes:
Brad, since you have Stage 3 with Fast Ratio, would you describe it as being more firm than a typical modern vehicle?
(fast ratio increases firmness due to leverage)
What is your front tire size (or at least width), and what steering wheel are you using?
These things also affect firmness.
I haven't personally tried the 12:1 fast ratio stuff yet.
2.75 turns lock to lock sounds nice, but 12:1 is quite a bit faster ratio than 14.4:1 modern Challengers, and even faster than most other 16:1 modern vehicles.
I was concerned that the 12:1 might feel darty, like the slightest movement would make big enough difference that it might be a chore to drive in a straight line.
Oh the fabled one finger u-turn of lore!!!
:rofl:
Quote from: cataclysm80 on January 22, 2017, 09:32:56 PM
Quote from: Brads70 on January 22, 2017, 07:58:17 PM
and another vote for stage 3 and the fast ratio arms while your at it! :yes:
Brad, since you have Stage 3 with Fast Ratio, would you describe it as being more firm than a typical modern vehicle?
(fast ratio increases firmness due to leverage)
What is your front tire size (or at least width), and what steering wheel are you using?
These things also affect firmness.
I haven't personally tried the 12:1 fast ratio stuff yet.
2.75 turns lock to lock sounds nice, but 12:1 is quite a bit faster ratio than 14.4:1 modern Challengers, and even faster than most other 16:1 modern vehicles.
I was concerned that the 12:1 might feel darty, like the slightest movement would make big enough difference that it might be a chore to drive in a straight line.
Most performance GM boxes are 12:1 factory, thinking late 80's Iroc, GTA firebirds etc....
I don't find the steering hard to turn at all and I have 315/30/18 up front. No issue feeling to fast at hwy speeds either. I also have a slightly smaller steering wheel also 14 1/2" diameter. I've driven it a few times to Carlsile 7 1/2 hour drive each way, feels more like modern steering IMO . Hope that helps.
Quote from: cataclysm80 on January 22, 2017, 09:17:23 PM
The stock 16:1 power steering ratio is comparable to most modern cars.
However, the number of turns lock to lock is different, and I find that odd.
Please help me to understand what is going on here.
Let's compare an E body to a new Camaro for comparison, since both cars have 16:1 ratio.
old E bodies have 16:1 ratio with 3.5 turns lock to lock
new (2014 and up) Camaros have 16.1:1 ratio with 2.5 turns lock to lock
Lock to lock is how many full revolutions of the steering wheel are required to go from steering all the way in one direction to all the way in the other direction.
Steering wheel diameter does not change the lock to lock number. 1 revolution = 1 revolution regardless of steering wheel diameter. The steering shaft turns the same, even if the distance your hands move around the circumference of the steering wheel is different.
Front tire diameter does not change the lock to lock number. (unless your tires are so big that the hit the frame rails as a stop)
If both cars have a 16:1 ratio, but the E body can turn its steering wheel further before hitting lock, does that mean that the E body has a tighter turning radius than a new Camaro?
That seems unlikely, but what else could it be?
I found what limits how far the wheels turn on an e-body is the little nub on the lower ball joint that hits the lower control arm. The lower control arm is shaped for this nub/bump on the lower ball joint. In my compo I used A-Body lower control arms because they are slightly longer to go with the C-Body spindles I'm using , helps get my camber. Now on the A-body lower control arm that contact area is shaped opposite to a E/B body lower control arm. So in my case to get the turning radius back I milled down the nub on the ball joint . I'm sure there are stops in the steering box also but I found the lower ball joint/steering arm contacts the lower control arm first before it " bottoms out" on the stops in the steering box.