Alright, after owning the car for 9 years as of this month, and moving it from place to place either on the garage floor, or out back annoying my neighbors and now finally into the barn/shop, I'm creating this thread in hopes it will keep me focused and motivated to get this thing underway and eventually on the road.
:wave:
What I have...
1970 Barracuda vert (sadly not a "Cuda")
As far as I can tell, originally....
White top (power)
Yellow exterior
Black interior
Center console
318 2bbl
3 speed manual on the floor
8-3/4 rear (probably 3.23 but haven't checked)
Front sway bar (have te bar and LCA's have tabs)
Power steering
I have no fender tags, nor build sheets. Those are long gone as is the original motor.
What I have in parts that came with the car
3 speed manual
Inland shifter
Small block bell housing
All the vert "stuff"
Twin scoop, rally hood with pins
Original (but mangled core support)
New (to me) core support with 26" opening
Two fenders (need work but very fixable)
Parts I've procured since owning it.
New
U.S. Car tool core support brace
Dynacorn rear assembly
New torque boxes
AMD Quarter skins
AMD front floor
AMD tail light panel
AMD hinge pillars
AMD Upper Cowl
Transmission cross member
Inner fender panel "kits"
Used
3 speaker dash frame
Rally switch pod (also have the orignal non rally)
15x8 rally wheels for the back
18 spline E-Body A833
Wing with all hardware
71 challenger front clip (rails, firewall, hing pillars etc)
Hurst pistol grip shifter
Vert windshield frame
Clearly you can see it's in rough shape. Last time it was registered before I got it in 2011, was 1978. After someone decided to run it into a pole or something, it sat in a one car garage in MN for 34 years, rotting away. Lots to replace, and fabricate. As much of a challenge as this will be, the worst part is the windshield frame. It flat out scares me to be honest but I know some pretty skilled people and I'm not afraid to try anything with this. It will be slow going to be sure.
The plan going forward is to build a body jig and measure everything. I'll start with the middle and make sure everything is good (rockers, cross member, pillars etc) then move "out", starting towards the rear, then tackling the front. I haven't decided when to tackle the windshield frame yet but it will be small sections at a time and only after building reference gauges for all the contours and bracing the hell out of it.
It will be a lot of blood, sweat and tears, but they aint making any more of these things... sort of like land I guess.....
Here I go..... head first....
Looks like you have your work cut out for you.....
FWIW about 50% of the windshield frame (the critical part where the glass seals) could come from a hard top the rest of the windshield frame is either wrapped in stainless trim or textured metal.... So you just need it to be straight & solid it doesn't need to be perfect....
That's a good point. I know the uprights are different (thicker steel and slightly different profile) and of course the top section, but I hadn't considered using a donor for the windshield hole. That would be spot on and save me from fabricating everything.
Nice project.
Lots of work, but it's fun!
If you build a jig, could you share the drawings and measurements?
Quote from: soundcontrol on September 09, 2020, 11:16:25 AM
Nice project.
Lots of work, but it's fun!
If you build a jig, could you share the drawings and measurements?
Thanks, and yes, it will be a lot of work.
As far sharing drawings and measurements goes, that will depend on how "proud" of them I am. There will be nothing groundbreaking that's for sure. Most likely it will be something like the AMD units. That said, I've been toying around with building something more like an actual frame pulling rig. i saw one on you tube a guy built for doing pulls. I like the idea of clamping the pinch welds as an option. Building the main structure out of 5 or 6 inch square tube has it's appeal as well. Instead of a scaffold design, it's a simple ladder with sliding supports.
Your's looks easy. Took me 6yrs. Mine is a cuda but a 3SPD manual also.
Looking forward to seeing your progress :bigthumb:
Nice Job
@Bpret (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/bpret_528)
Quote from: Chryco Psycho on September 09, 2020, 05:50:27 PM
Looking forward to seeing your progress :bigthumb:
Nice Job @Bpret (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/bpret_528)
That sure is Purdy.... is there a build thread or was that pre interwebs?
Never did a build thread but it was extensive. Left front frame rail, upper cowl both quarters trunk floor and one floor pan behind driver's seat. No jig just measured and welded car. The car drives nice and lined up real good. Take pictures for reference measure everything tack pieces in place and install connecting pieces before welding. It is a lot of work but if you take your time and fit everything you will be happy with the results.
Quote from: Bpret on September 10, 2020, 03:28:54 AM
Never did a build thread but it was extensive. Left front frame rail, upper cowl both quarters trunk floor and one floor pan behind driver's seat. No jig just measured and welded car. The car drives nice and lined up real good. Take pictures for reference measure everything tack pieces in place and install connecting pieces before welding. It is a lot of work but if you take your time and fit everything you will be happy with the results.
I'm going to need all of that and more unfortunately. My biggest problem is going to be hidden rust inside the rockers and the windshield frame. I'm contemplating removing the outer rockers completely and possibly removing the internal braces and reinstalling them after cleaning up the inner surfaces. Structure is everything on these cars and if those braces aren't properly secured, the whole effort is wasted I think. Because of all the hidden stuff I will need to deal with, I think a jig is paramount. Might be overkill, but I'd rather over engineer the solution than get caught with my skivies down around my ankles and end up with a pile of scrap. I will absolutely install frame connectors to ensure it all stays together. Ride improvement will be a nice benefit but a strong midsection is most of my concern.
Too bad there isn't a build thread. I've seen some really good ones that remind me of what's possible. Only one I've seen that I believe is worse than mine is the one called the "Come back Cuda" that was put back together after an accident. The AMD installation center did that one and woah boy, it was bad. Someone T-boned it and folded a rocker. The rest was poorly done body work which the owner didn't know about (auction buy I think).
The first one I saw after buying my car and realizing how bad it is, was by Shelbydog on the other forum (CC). he did a lot of work, in his garage, on jack stands. Probably about the same a you honestly. Some creative solutions. He was building the car to drive, not win a concourse show, but in the end, it turned out really nice. Turned it into a pace car clone. As I recall, he replaced a frame rail, firewall, floor, quarters, tail panel, trunk etc. he even had to fix the drivers side of the windshield frame. All on the floor or on jack stands.
Jigs didn't always exist and people have been doing this stuff without them for many years. I'm not that confident in my abilities, so I'll most likely build one just to be on the safe side. The trick for me is going to be NOT to get caught up in it's "design" and just "git-r-done".
-=C
Quote from: Bpret on September 09, 2020, 05:47:18 PM
Your's looks easy. Took me 6yrs. Mine is a cuda but a 3SPD manual also.
Did you keep the 3 speed in it? 3 spd non-cuda verts were about 115 in production in '70. I'd imagine a "Cuda" with a 3 spd would be almost non-existent.
I have a '71 3 sp 'cuda . :bigthumb:
judy
Quote from: Cuda416 on September 10, 2020, 06:42:52 AM
Quote from: Bpret on September 09, 2020, 05:47:18 PM
Your's looks easy. Took me 6yrs. Mine is a cuda but a 3SPD manual also.
Did you keep the 3 speed in it? 3 spd non-cuda verts were about 115 in production in '70. I'd imagine a "Cuda" with a 3 spd would be almost non-existent.
I restored this 318 3spd Barracuda....but as you might have guess, it now spouts a 4 speed behind a 360.
I'm in the middle of finishing off my 70 Vert. A couple of notes:
- A lot of "stuff" is one year only 70 specific. It depends on how detailed you want to get but, for example, the trunk floor pan is different on a 70 vs 71-74. And not all 70's were different, depends on when they were built.
- Some of the hard to find vert specific parts - the rear interior panels, if you want originals. Almost impossible to find nowadays. Also, the top weatherstripping if you want originals. I've heard that the aftermarket stuff doesn't fit very well. If you have usable weatherstripping on your top, make sure you treat it like unobtainium. And, of course the glass is all vert specific but you can run into sets of that. I have a driver quality set of clear glass if you need it.
Also,
@Convertcuda (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/convertcuda_50) Ken makes rear quarters that are exact copies of original vert quarters. You might want to look into those. Ken also is a wealth of knowledge on convertibles so, if you need anything, reach out to him.
Quote from: anlauto on September 10, 2020, 06:55:01 AM
I restored this 318 3spd Barracuda....but as you might have guess, it now spouts a 4 speed behind a 360.
I'm just gonna go ahead and say publicly that looking at the cars you have done on your web site, is frickin' inspirational.
Quote from: Cuda416 on September 10, 2020, 06:59:03 AM
Quote from: anlauto on September 10, 2020, 06:55:01 AM
I restored this 318 3spd Barracuda....but as you might have guess, it now spouts a 4 speed behind a 360.
I'm just gonna go ahead and say publicly that looking at the cars you have done on your web site, is frickin' inspirational.
Thank you, not everybody would agree.... :haha: :haha: but thanks ! :drinkingbud:
With the help of Keith Sim, we've restored some pretty rusty cars... :tool:
Quote from: Cuda_mark on September 10, 2020, 06:57:53 AM
I'm in the middle of finishing off my 70 Vert. A couple of notes:
- A lot of "stuff" is one year only 70 specific. It depends on how detailed you want to get but, for example, the trunk floor pan is different on a 70 vs 71-74. And not all 70's were different, depends on when they were built.
- Some of the hard to find vert specific parts - the rear interior panels, if you want originals. Almost impossible to find nowadays. Also, the top weatherstripping if you want originals. I've heard that the aftermarket stuff doesn't fit very well. If you have usable weatherstripping on your top, make sure you treat it like unobtainium. And, of course the glass is all vert specific but you can run into sets of that. I have a driver quality set of clear glass if you need it.
Also, @Convertcuda (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/convertcuda_50) Ken makes rear quarters that are exact copies of original vert quarters. You might want to look into those. Ken also is a wealth of knowledge on convertibles so, if you need anything, reach out to him.
Luckily I have all of the vert specific stuff. My rear panels have the typical speaker holes, so I'll just put some speakers in and call it good. If I were to find a good set I'd think about replacing them.
Ken knows his stuff for sure. Spoke to him years ago and he explained his process (in general). Pretty cool stuff. Most of my seals are pretty ratty but I'll be sure to tread carefully going forward.
I knew about the front floorpan being different, but not the trunk. What's different? I'm not going to be that picky I don't think. I've got the dynacorn rear assembly so the plan is toss it in and weld it as is. hopefully since the DC assembly is for a 70 challenger, it's "right".
My "vert specific glass" is good as well thanks God. I'll need a windshield but there's no difference in that.
Exciting project. I'm not sure if I could have held off that long to do it. The good thing is parts availability of this stuff is as good as it will ever get right now. AMD is cancelling alot of their excellent Mopar metal so buy anything you might need right now.
I knew about the front floorpan being different, but not the trunk. What's different?
[/quote]
Its just the hole locations. I don't know exactly when they cut over to the 71 version. Also, make sure you reuse your spare tire hold down since that is convertible specific.
Quote from: Cuda_mark on September 10, 2020, 11:18:45 AM
I knew about the front floorpan being different, but not the trunk. What's different?
Its just the hole locations. I don't know exactly when they cut over to the 71 version. Also, make sure you reuse your spare tire hold down since that is convertible specific.
[/quote]
Gotcha, yeah, the assembly from DC has it in the correct place for a 70 then.
Good luck with this awesome project. Here is what I dragged home 10 years ago. I will have to start a build thread when I get some time.
Yes I left it stock. It's a numbers matching 340 3spd with a 323 rear. It's one of 19 made. Power nothing :tired: with 3 options Rallye dash am radio and vitamin C orange paint.
When I restored the above purple 3spd one, I wanted to make a custom round bar shifter handle with the factory looking ball on top for the upgraded 4 speed transmission...but everybody loves that pistol grip :'( so I lost that suggestion pretty quick ::)
The 3 speed isn't bad to drive other than sounding like an old Jeep in first gear. Because the car is so odd and remained number matching I wanted to leave it stock. I wish it was ordered with a 4spd but I guess this makes it rare.
It's motivating to see all of the other e body verts that are as bad, or at least near as bad as mine. Every once in a while, I go look at it and get in this mode of "No wonder my wife cried when I brought it home (literally), what the hell have I done...". Seeing this stuff just shows it can be done. Full steam ahead.
:wrenching:
-=C
Lol: It's pretty common to see bad convt. projects, you are not alone.
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on September 11, 2020, 07:03:43 AM
Lol: It's pretty common to see bad convt. projects, you are not alone.
So I am learning. :handshake:
Never too late
I had my A66 vert in storage since 1984 and only took it out of storage to work on 4 1/2 years ago! Finally working on her.
I laughed out loud at your comment my wife cried. My wife didn't this time with the convertible because I brought this home two years earlier and finished it in two years
Hi Everyone,
Sorry just got the message. If you need help with E-body convertibles I have them. I make 80 percent of the all pieces factory correct. Have 5 parts cars if interested.
Ken 715-432-5080 or convertcuda@gmail.com
Mine wasn't too bad :'(
Quote from: Xghobo on September 11, 2020, 05:54:13 PM
Mine wasn't too bad :'(
Not at all! The left trunk hinge looks great! :rofl:
Quote from: Cuda416 on September 11, 2020, 04:47:31 AM
It's motivating to see all of the other e body verts that are as bad, or at least near as bad as mine. Every once in a while, I go look at it and get in this mode of "No wonder my wife cried when I brought it home (literally), what the hell have I done...". Seeing this stuff just shows it can be done. Full steam ahead.
:wrenching:
-=C
I started my vert before I got married...it was part of the deal. I told her that she couldn't 2nd guess me on any part of it.
Now she's the one pestering me to finish it already!!!
that pic is perfect !!!!! i would be proud to drag her home
Alright, been a while but I'm back...
Picked up a bunch of steel to build my jig and been mulling over some options. Not trying over do it, rather trying to maximize my use and "storability" of this thing.
Went round and round with alternate designs. Some used "I" or "H" beams, but I wasn't able to find any that fit the bill, which is surprising because everything around here is made of steel... Then I started thinking of using "C" channel. The general idea was to mimic a certain pro chassis cart/jig that uses what look like heavy "girts" or "purlins" facing each other with a gap for bolts to go through. pretty cleaver if ya ask me. Allows for all sorts of "jigs" etc. I'm not a total fan of the "girts", I saw another one where the guy used "C" channel, 4 inch I think. He spaced them apart, but his are back to back (flat to flat) but the same premise applies.
So, now I'm thinking of a combination of the AMD carts and this "C" channel method. The "C" channel would be the "top" longitudinal rails, and the 2x2x0.180 will be the ladder structure underneath. Overall, the two "ladder" sides, would be joined at the ends and maybe the middle, by a "cross" support in an "X" shape or similar. These would be held together with bolts.
The top rails, made from either facing or opposing "C" channels, would be mounted to the top of the longitudinal "ladders" and locked into position using pins welded through the ladder tops.
I know this :needphotos:, but this is all just ideas floating around in my head for now.
The benefit of this is of course that it will accommodate pretty much anything without any cutting or welding other than the initial build and I'll be able to disassemble it and chuck it in the corner when not in use.
I'll draw something later and post a picture.
in the mean time, any ideas would be appreciated.
-=C
I started my vert before I got married...it was part of the deal. I told her that she couldn't 2nd guess me on any part of it.
Now she's the one pestering me to finish it already!!!
[/quote]
Haha, same here. Mine was junk when bought it 30+ years ago and I did the best I could with my garage & friends to get it going. About 8 years ago my wife said to just spend the money and get it rotisseried, replace all the rust, new top, and interior. I didn't waste any time kicking that off, but still took about 3 years.
Quote from: Cuda416 on September 24, 2020, 05:15:39 AM
Alright, been a while but I'm back...
Picked up a bunch of steel to build my jig and been mulling over some options. Not trying over do it, rather trying to maximize my use and "storability" of this thing.
Went round and round with alternate designs. Some used "I" or "H" beams, but I wasn't able to find any that fit the bill, which is surprising because everything around here is made of steel... Then I started thinking of using "C" channel. The general idea was to mimic a certain pro chassis cart/jig that uses what look like heavy "girts" or "purlins" facing each other with a gap for bolts to go through. pretty cleaver if ya ask me. Allows for all sorts of "jigs" etc. I'm not a total fan of the "girts", I saw another one where the guy used "C" channel, 4 inch I think. He spaced them apart, but his are back to back (flat to flat) but the same premise applies.
So, now I'm thinking of a combination of the AMD carts and this "C" channel method. The "C" channel would be the "top" longitudinal rails, and the 2x2x0.180 will be the ladder structure underneath. Overall, the two "ladder" sides, would be joined at the ends and maybe the middle, by a "cross" support in an "X" shape or similar. These would be held together with bolts.
The top rails, made from either facing or opposing "C" channels, would be mounted to the top of the longitudinal "ladders" and locked into position using pins welded through the ladder tops.
I know this :needphotos:, but this is all just ideas floating around in my head for now.
The benefit of this is of course that it will accommodate pretty much anything without any cutting or welding other than the initial build and I'll be able to disassemble it and chuck it in the corner when not in use.
I'll draw something later and post a picture.
in the mean time, any ideas would be appreciated.
-=C
Maybe we can kick around some ideas and share knowledge as I need to build a jig also...
Quote from: Cuda416 on September 11, 2020, 04:47:31 AM
It's motivating to see all of the other e body verts that are as bad, or at least near as bad as mine. Every once in a while, I go look at it and get in this mode of "No wonder my wife cried when I brought it home (literally), what the hell have I done...". Seeing this stuff just shows it can be done. Full steam ahead.
:wrenching:
-=C
You're in good company...all verts should be restored!
Wow! Nice car 70rag!
Never seen those "in (metal work) process" pictures before 70rag383, thanks for sharing :twothumbsup:
Quote from: 70rag383 on September 24, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Quote from: Cuda416 on September 11, 2020, 04:47:31 AM
It's motivating to see all of the other e body verts that are as bad, or at least near as bad as mine. Every once in a while, I go look at it and get in this mode of "No wonder my wife cried when I brought it home (literally), what the hell have I done...". Seeing this stuff just shows it can be done. Full steam ahead.
:wrenching:
-=C
You're in good company...all verts should be restored!
I couldn't agree more. Those pics are definitely a sign of things to come. I suspect that's about as bad or worse than mine. Awesome job.
-C
As promised, here is a follow up to my jig post.
At the moment, just brain storming really, my plan is to make it "adjustable" and "disassembleable" (my word, it belongs to me, you can't use it.... trademarked and copyright... Phht).
Here are to the first two formats I'm toying with.
The first one, has the "rails" mounted longitudinally, and the second one orthogonally to the center-line of the jig. I'm leaning towards the second version since the orthogonal mounting would allow for almost as much fore and aft movement of the "rails" but also give more side to side adjustment without "adding" a "slider" to the top of the rails in example #1.
On the other hand, jig #2, would allow the main structure to be quite a bit shorter. Less material, less storage, and less cost.
The last pic is the proposed cross section of the "adjustable beam rails made from "C" channel. The gap allows for a bolt, nominally 1/2" to slide along the length. The thing holding it together, is a piece of rectangle tube. The "C" channels would be attached to that tube using several plug welds. Alternatively, in the interest of being able to break it down to damn near nothing, could be done with through bolts.
I'm in no hurry, hell it's been 9 years and I'm still working on my sons Valiant so for now, I know the base is going to be like the AMD units, and I am relatively sure the "rails" are going to be a thing. Just need to come up with a good way to secure everything. At the moment, it looks like 3/8" square "U" bolts are good for around 1000 lbs each. Using those I could strap the "rails" to the top of the jig platform and not worry about things moving around even if I put some serious force on something. (no, not frame pulling force, but definitely BFH force.). The platform sides, will be held 36 inches apart by three supports, front, middle and back. These will connect to the fronts of the sides with 1/2" bolts using 1/4 plate brackets. When disassembled, there should be no "protruding" parts or brackets anywhere.
The base will of course have casters and leveling feet.
Anyway, that's what's running through my mind at the moment.
-=C
Cannot help with frame thoughts but glad you will be resurrecting another vert.
Any update on this?
Very little unfortunately. Been working on everything BUT the jig/car but finally making "some" progress.
Much of my free time was spent going over various designs etc for how I want to build my jig. Finally deciding on a way forward that should be able to be used on pretty much any car I need it for going forward. I'm not an engineer so I took a while and came up with several different design ideas "testing" them in my head by drawing it, then leaving it for a while, getting home owner stuff done, then coming back to them and asking myself it I still thought it was a good idea. More often than not, I scrapped ideas and came up with better ones.
I have at this point...
Built the sides of the main frame (16ft long and 12in high)
Cut parts for the "cross" beams that will be adjustable.
Need to...
Build the cross beams
Cut and build the "stand offs"
Cut and build the front/rear/middle segments for the main frame
for the cross beams, I decided to use a section of 1.5" tube welded through both pieces of C channel to hold them at the correct distance. There will be 4 sections welded through two 50" lengths.
I have some free time to dedicate to this now so I'm getting back on it.
Hah, no way man, no me..
That's gorgeous!
Every time I see a car like that with a similar story as mine, it's a little bit more motivation, so thanks for that.
I'm hoping to make some real progress on my jig this week so I'll some better pictures as I do.
Thanks. BTW, mine spent several years in my 1 car garage before I did an "at home" build to get it driveable. I finally did a full rotisserie about 9 years ago and still a work in progress. Just remember there will lots of decisions, some wrong, and lots of frustrations but it will all be worth it.
Good luck and keep us posted (especially if you need any parts).
Quote from: Cuda416 on July 13, 2021, 08:17:10 AM
Hah, no way man, no me..
That's gorgeous!
Every time I see a car like that with a similar story as mine, it's a little bit more motivation, so thanks for that.
I'm hoping to make some real progress on my jig this week so I'll some better pictures as I do.
Made some progress, not much, but some and that's better then none... ok. I'm done...
Mocked up a cross beam to make things were going to work.
Hopefully I'll get some of it burned in this weekend.
Made some progress on my jig finally. The sides are tacked and waiting for some final parts/decisions before final burn.
Got the "cross beams" done. These will lay across the jig and allow for locating the "stand offs" wherever i want them to be.
Made some more progress on the jig today. Cross beam clamps all tacked and ready burn.
Good to see some progress.
Interested to see the final setup.
Thanks, just truing to take some bites off the elephant when I can.
Here is one of the clamps mocked up for fit. The short piece of 2x2 tube is just some scrap I had laying around. The actual jig base is 2x2x0.180 wall. Still working out a "good" way to build the ends. I have a few ideas and will finalize on something soon. The width of the base isn't that important. Obviously I don't want it too narrow, but I don't want it to get in the way either. I'm thinking 48 inches at the moment. The cross beams are 60 inches long.
More progress. Every little bit keeps me moving in the right direction.
The smaller parts are what will support the center section of the car. The larger parts will receive swappable standoffs depending on the car requirements. They will all get welded to 4x6 .25 plates once I get home and drill some holes for mounting them to the cross beams.
I oddly like working with this heavy stuff.
Nothing as structured as your doing. But have made work tables, home made bending brake. An A frame hoist and now overbuilding a jacuuzi surround.
Sorry.... Squirrel... now back to your regularly scheduled build.
Hah, yeah me too. If it wasn't so dang hot out in the barn I'd make better progress. Last night I re-made the plates for the 8 standoffs. Burned up an angle grinder along the way. Luckily I had another with a flap disc handy.
The jig will be seriously over built, but if I'm going to put effort into it, I'm not half-assing it. it's going to hold my vert after all.
My overall guiding principal with this is I need to be able to take it apart and stash it out of the way. I had only to finalize the details on the ends and yesterday I believe I figured out the way forward in that regard.
More to come.
Very nice... :twothumbsup:
And I thought my frame rack was over-engineered! :smile:
Are you planning to do more cars after this one or just going for maximum versatility and keeping your options open?
Thanks!
I have the Cuda right now, and then a 69 dart vert I might work on unless I sell it to fund the Cuda. This was originally for the cuda but as you said, both versatility and keeping my options open were both key issues. With the condition of project cars getting worse, i can see this thing being needed again someday.
Quote from: Cuda416 on August 05, 2021, 02:22:02 PM
Thanks!
I have the Cuda right now, and then a 69 dart vert I might work on unless I sell it to fund the Cuda. This was originally for the cuda but as you said, both versatility and keeping my options open were both key issues. With the condition of project cars getting worse, i can see this thing being needed again someday.
That was pretty much what I had in mind when building mine. I have two more cars to do, '70 Challenger and a '74 Roadrunner. I am hoping they do not need the level of work that the 'cuda is needing but wanted something that could be used for them if necessary.
After these three I am done... hahaha This is interesting work but only because it is MY car... I could never summon the motivation to do this on other people's cars. :bricks:
Made some progress on the end pieces. Stinking blade wore down (abrasive POS) so I called it a night. I try to not fight the universe sometimes. I'll get a thin kerf blade after work and cut the other end. Plan is to mock the whole thing up this weekend before final burn.
Made a bunch of progress on the jig today. Tacked up the end pieces and mocked it up. Next is to install the diagonal bracing.
Well, it looks fantastic, I hope you share the same passion for fixing rusty cars as you do for metal fabrication....you certainly have plenty of skill there :worship: :drinkingbud:
That's a helluva compliment, thanks! My skills don't hold a candle to the folks around here but I'm watching all of you and learning as much as I can.
I plan on owning this car forever so I want to do it right the first time and enjoy it. There will be mistakes but I'll do my best to recognize them, regroup, and correct them before moving on to each next step.
Nice frame jig.
Another member here I recall built one similar for his 71 cuda I believe. His had diagonals on the bottom "rails" vs your ladder style.
The diagonal supports are going to run from the top of each upright to the bottom of it's adjacent upright. It will resemble a roof truss. I should have pictures later today.
Quote from: larry4406 on August 08, 2021, 07:21:14 AM
Nice frame jig.
Another member here I recall built one similar for his 71 cuda I believe. His had diagonals on the bottom "rails" vs your ladder style.
You might be thinking of mine? '71 cuda here...
I really like the way you made the standoffs adjustable. Heads up, I'm stealing that idea! lol...
Where did you get the pinch clamps? I was thinking of fabbing some.
Quote from: Cuda416 on August 08, 2021, 09:38:49 AM
I really like the way you made the standoffs adjustable. Heads up, I'm stealing that idea! lol...
Where did you get the pinch clamps? I was thinking of fabbing some.
1 inch bolts fit nicely in the factory alignment holes. The nut provides good adjustment. No supports welded
to the car.
Pinch weld clamps:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/302558738135 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/302558738135)
They are quite heavy and do the job nicely. I bought two sets and the shipping was still only $18.50
Well that's a lot easier than making them.. thanks for the link!
Got tired of abrasive cutting wheels..what's a guy to do.
Well he grabs some scrap and rigs up a cold saw... osha can suck it. Lol..
Got the diagonal bracing fit and tacked in less than 30 minutes after that.
Quote from: Cuda416 on August 08, 2021, 01:18:44 PM
Got tired of abrasive cutting wheels..what's a guy to do.
Well he grabs some scrap and rigs up a cold saw... osha can suck it. Lol..
Got the diagonal bracing fit and tacked in less than 30 minutes after that.
Well that's one way of doing it! :bigthumb:
I've heard that regular saw RPM is more than is necessary for those cold/dry cut blades so you might
have blade life issues. Sure beats using cutting wheels though!
I got tired of waiting for the horizontal band saw to cut through thick metal at the rate of one layer of
molecules per minute so I bought one of those dedicated cold chop saws. Worth every penny in time
saved!
Oh I'm with you on a dedicated saw. These blades are designed for what I'm doing with it, the saw on the other hand well.... lol
More progress on the "M1 tank jig"
It's not obvious from the picture but the wheels are attached to "carriages" that can be removed when not in use. I need to make the standoffs that will slide into the 4 pedestals at the ends. The standoffs will be held in place with 4 3/8 bolts. You can see the nuts welded in place for that purpose. The end braces are also removable. There are 3 5/8" bolts holding each corner together. I also have yet to fabricate the 4 45 deg corner braces. There are some spots in which I need to do a final burn but for the most part, this is it and how it's going to be.
Nice welds! :bradsthumb:
That's a serious project and you are going full tilt! Love it!
Great looking jig, keep the pics coming!
Looked at this thread for the first time today..with six pages I thought I was going to see a pretty stripped down 'vert....nope.
Seriously impressed with the jig though.
Almost gonna be a shame to cover that up with a car! :))
Hah! that's fair. I decided to put it all in one thread including the jig instead of spreading it out.
Believe you me, I just want this thing done. Lots going on and a ton of reasons (excuses?) for not moving faster but I'm moving which is better than the previous 10 years.
The summer was particularly tough truing to work in an uninsulated barn (big mistake).
Thanks for the comment on the jig. Driving goal was the ability to break it down when not in use. I'm almost done.
1. Need to fab the corner braces.
2. Need to fab the frame rail stand-offs
3. Mock it up, make sure it's "square" ish. I say "ish" because due to it being adjustable, I just need to it to maintain it's "starting" shape.
I was going to weld on mounting locations foe various halos, laser line mounts etc but I'll build ones with clamps as I need them. That will help speed things up a "little".
I'll get there eventually.
More progress made on the jig, final stretch....
Got everything locked in finally. Juts need to spend some time chasing details and do a walk around in case I missed some welds. I know there are a few and the end caps need a final burn.
I changed the main stand offs to something a little better than my original hack/smash effort. Then got the corner bracers fab'd and bolted in place (5/8" grade 5 hardware). And finally, in all it's glory... Almost ready for paint.
Looks good and seems well thought out.
Paint with gun or powder coat?
Thanks!
No way I'm powdercoaring this thing. It's huge! lol..
Lucky if it gets a brush at this point. I have two gallons of rustoleum (safety blue and safety yellow). Anything that can kneecap ya, get's yellow.
Alright, made one last change. This time to the feet. I realized how high the car was going to be when mounted and decided it was better to have it lower to the ground. I lopped off the feet I'd tacked on and went with this instead. Much simpler and a little over 4 inches lower overall.
Well, aside from needing to paint a couple of small parts (cold got in the way), here is the jig in all it's glory. I was a little concerned with the overall rigidity but after having a floor jack under one corner and seeing the whole thing lift without any twisting, I'm not concerned. The bolts weren't even tight.
The one thing I need to do is to add the "toggles" to the mounting posts, but that will be a fairly easy thing to do.
So you built this very impressive jig just to restore your own convertible ? What are your plans for it after your convertible is finished ?
Quote from: anlauto on January 03, 2022, 06:39:22 AM
So you built this very impressive jig just to restore your own convertible ? What are your plans for it after your convertible is finished ?
Thanks for the compliment. I considered building a simpler jig that would only work for a cuda, then feature creep got the best of me and I decided to make it fully adjustable since (hopefully) this will not be the last car I work on. I also have a 69 Dart vert. If something happens to change that those plans, I can sell it.
Looks like way too much effort, I know, and that might be true but I love building stuff and problem solving. At at this point I'm confident the jig will handle anything I can throw at it.
I've seen people to amazing things on jack stands. I am not confident enough to trust jack stands for this project.
Thanks again.
Nice work on the frame jig...that is really nice :twothumbsup:
I am the same way with building "stuff" to do stuff.
Box tube table for a lathe, bending brake, A frame, work tables that hover over a car trunk, etc...
Helps to start mentally sorting what the project will entail.
Looks good.
Quote from: YellowThumper on January 03, 2022, 09:06:06 PM
I am the same way with building "stuff" to do stuff.
Box tube table for a lathe, bending brake, A frame, work tables that hover over a car trunk, etc...
Helps to start mentally sorting what the project will entail.
Looks good.
Hadn't really thought of it that way, but I agree. Helps get yer head around something.
If you attack the convertible with half as skill and enthusiasm, that Cuda won't know what hit it....can't wait to follow the progress :popcorn:
Well again I appreciate the vote of confidence.
Years ago when I bought this thing, it didn't take long to start second guessing myself and thinking I made a mistake. After seeing what others have done (admittedly with way more experience than I), I decided the mistake would be not trying. I had to step back and take a long hard look at come to the realization it's just metal. A big metal puzzle and if I'm careful, watchful and work purposefully on each part, then eventually, I'll be successful.
Case in point. It took a year to get the jig done. hard truths are I have a full time jog, property to take care of, a honey-do list and family obligations I can't ignore. If it were just me, I'd just put a cot in the shop.
The biggest example that motivated me early on was Shelbydog at CC.com. He had a 71 challenger vert he cloned into a pace car. it was probably as rotted as mine, maybe not quite as bad but bad. He had it on jack stands and did some impressive work. Car turned out very nice.
It wasn't long after that I saw the jigs used by the AMD folks and I decided I was going to stack the deck in my favor, which is how I look at the jig, part of a stacked deck.
Anyway, it's comments like yours that help the most, people with more experience wanting us rank amateurs' to succeed and giving encouragement.
Thanks
-=C
Excellent work on the frame jig!
Quote from: Cuda416 on January 03, 2022, 06:22:28 AM
Well, aside from needing to paint a couple of small parts (cold got in the way), here is the jig in all it's glory. I was a little concerned with the overall rigidity but after having a floor jack under one corner and seeing the whole thing lift without any twisting, I'm not concerned. The bolts weren't even tight.
The one thing I need to do is to add the "toggles" to the mounting posts, but that will be a fairly easy thing to do.
Well damn.... now I really need to paint mine... it looks soooo unfinished compared to that! :twothumbsup:
Alright, the time has come so I'm putting this here to help keep me honest. I have no more excuses to not get the cuda on the jig. By Saturday evening I plan on having it mounted and put into place so I can start working on on it...
Now, a thought I had as I was stripping the dash etc out the other day. Since I'm NOT worried about making it "stock", I am considering cloning a 71. I'm going to have to get the entire grill area anyway, and my fenders are "OK" but not perfect. I'm thinking making the changes required to achieve the "look" won't be that much more considering I have a 70 header panel to sell/trade and fenders to so the same. Regardless of how I get the parts I think I'd need....
Grill and mounting hardware
Fenders/gills
Headlight assemblies
Wiring harnesses
Misc trim
Tail Light lenses/trim/Buckets
Front valance etc
Remember, I'm not going for the full monty, just the "look" , and there will be small things I've not lister, but overall, is there anything I'm forgetting?
Well it was a good weekend. Buckled down and got the rear end, leaf springs, valance, bumper, k-frame etc off the car and lowered it onto the jig!
Quote from: Cuda416 on February 28, 2022, 03:31:12 AM
Well it was a good weekend. Buckled down and got the rear end, leaf springs, valance, bumper, k-frame etc off the car and lowered it onto the jig!
Nice! Progress like that always raises the spirits and helps build momentum!
Now the fun begins... doing measurements and seeing how far off from spec it is from the factory and how 50 years of abuse have tweaked it even further... :headbang:
I'm glad I had mine blasted before working on it. Seems like a waste when removing so much of the metal afterward but it makes it so much easier to see the spot welds and there is not a constant rain of rust and dirt.
That will look sharp as a '71... if you need the parts anyway the expense isn't that much different for 70 vs 71. None of the mods are irreversible so if you ever need to put it back to '70 it isn't too difficult.
Quote from: RacerX on February 28, 2022, 07:07:08 AM
Quote from: Cuda416 on February 28, 2022, 03:31:12 AM
Well it was a good weekend. Buckled down and got the rear end, leaf springs, valance, bumper, k-frame etc off the car and lowered it onto the jig!
Nice! Progress like that always raises the spirits and helps build momentum!
Now the fun begins... doing measurements and seeing how far off from spec it is from the factory and how 50 years of abuse have tweaked it even further... :headbang:
I'm glad I had mine blasted before working on it. Seems like a waste when removing so much of the metal afterward but it makes it so much easier to see the spot welds and there is not a constant rain of rust and dirt.
That will look sharp as a '71... if you need the parts anyway the expense isn't that much different for 70 vs 71. None of the mods are irreversible so if you ever need to put it back to '70 it isn't too difficult.
Thanks! And youre not wrong, it's going to be a lot of fun.
Once I get the jig mount points set and locked in place, I might being a small dolly and after bracing everything, rolling it up onto my trailer and getting it blasted as well.
I'd be interested in opinions regarding dry or wet (dustless) regarding something like this. Not too worried about rust.... for obvious reasons, but in either case, the benefit of having a "clean slate" is very attractive. Whatever I choose, I'll treat the bade metal and seal it with epoxy asap.
Alright folks, time to get serious.
I am at the point at which I need to start clarifying some things and making some decisions that will effect the final outcome of this project and would like some advice.
Now that I have the shell stripped down, I need to think about stripping it. Reading through the "How to paint a show car" tutorial, as much of a wealth of information is in there, it reads like everything from media blasting to spraying epoxy sealer is done in a single day. I can see where that is preferred but the closest reputable media blaster I know of is almost an hour away. Well, so what, you might ask... Problem is, after reading through that tutorial I'm afraid to leave it in bare metal for more than a few minutes seeing how fast flash rust happens and I live in south Texas. Taking the car to the blaster across town, then waiting for it to get done, having it sit while I get a chance to retrieve it, then drive it back to my shop, get it off the trailer etc, all while trying to avoid "touching" it with my bare oil filled hands.... see where I'm going?
At this point I'm set on dry media blasting, versus dustless, unless there is compelling argument for it. I prefer the dry so there isn't any hidden water remaining behind.
So, I bring it to get blasted "while I wait" if I can arrange that. Just load it onto my trailer on a cart, drive it wherever, get the blasting done and bring it right back to the shop. Now, I have a bare metal (what's left of it) shell and I need to metal prep. How, at this point to I "clean" it to get it ready for metal prep since I just dragged it over the road and who knows what bug splattered itself on my newly blasted firewall? Once clean, I hit the parts I want to protect with a DA and some 150. Easy enough. Then after getting the metal clean (no touching), apply the metal prep (in small) areas. So, dumb question... how small? Are we talking about 1 foot squares or a fender? Can I overlap areas as I progress? The writeup says NO water on bare metal, which sounds great, but how do you do that if you are applying the prep in small areas and rinsing with water?
Ok, lets say I've gotten this far and not tossed myself off the roof of my barn because I messed it all up and need to start over...
At this point, the metal is protected and as I apply the conditioner, it forms the zinc coating. I'm under the impression I could leave it as is for quite a while (not that I want to) or I can immediately apply the epoxy sealer, or come back on day two and do it.
This is where I need to get to, the car stripped, metal prepped, metal conditioned and sealed.
I'd appreciate anyone who's done this to elaborate on this process. If I need to take a few days off of work to do this, so be it. I want to get this right.
One more question. Lets say I have the car sealed with epoxy. Now the metal work begins an invariably bare metal is seen again. Do I just repeat the process on those small areas again? Seems reasonable.
Thanks for any input.
If anyone has any recommendations for media blasting on the east side of San Antonio that will meet by appointment I'd appreciate it.
-=C
With the body shop I'm currently using, I get the car media blasted and they sit in his shop for months in bare metal as he does all the rust repairs. He only seals areas that he can't get to after, during the repairs, behind quarters, in frame rails etc... :dunno:
My regular metal guy, Keith Sim insists the cars are in bare metal while in his shop.....and look at the TV shows like Bitchin Rides, their projects are in bare metal all the time :dunno:
Quote from: anlauto on March 02, 2022, 12:28:51 PM
With the body shop I'm currently using, I get the car media blasted and they sit in his shop for months in bare metal as he does all the rust repairs. He only seals areas that he can't get to after, during the repairs, behind quarters, in frame rails etc... :dunno:
My regular metal guy, Keith Sim insists the cars are in bare metal while in his shop.....and look at the TV shows like Bitchin Rides, their projects are in bare metal all the time :dunno:
Thanks, one of the problems I have is humidity in south Texas. There is a LOT of it so I don't want to get it blasted only to have it rust more than it already is. If I was still in Colorado, I wouldn't be worried one bit. I had bare metal items in my garage for years with no problems whatsoever.
I'd like to ask some questions about your experience with flash rust. How is it that.bare metal rusts immediately in south Texas? Is it really that humid outside, or is your metal building causing problems. Leave the doors open.
I'm near Seattle in the rain and have had bare metal projects in the shop for years with no haze or fuzz. I have stuff cut off blasted projects in the scrap pile for weeks in the rain with no orange.
Next, I do not advocate using any rust converter or metal prep on blasted metal.
The blasting should have removed all but the deepest pits. Once primed, those spots could be addressed after the car is encapsulated with epoxy.
While I do like sanding the outside skin of blasted cars with a da and 80 grit, just to smooth them off, there is no way to adequately sand the inside. Just blow it out completely, and roll it over on the rotisserie to get the media out. It will come out forever.
The epoxy will get under and float the remaining dust to the surface, which will then be scuffed off with futher work.
Check to see if your blaster offers plastic or walnut media. While not as bad on a convertible, garnet with a heavy hand can warp panels.
I have my projects plastic blasted with garnet clean up on structure. I've had too many roofs, hoods and doors warped from to back side being blasted. The garnet can blow through holes and structure, and when it hits the outside skin, shrink and warp them.
Back to coatings, metal converter and everyone's favorite, por15, are not to be use on blasted metal.
I'm sure you will post more concerns, but those are some of my pointers, and I've blasted and rotisseried many. And yes wear gloves!!
In an area with a lot of humidity freshly blasted metal will flash rust before your eye's. I etch prime as soon at its done. I don't care if there is sand in the primer. I sand it down as I work on it to take care of the grains of sand. And I know the rust won't have a chance to form in the mean time. Cheap etch primer is fine for this. :alan2cents:
Tag, you're it. Didn't think you would respond while I was typing.
If humidity is that much of a problem, get it home and inside immediately and epoxy prime.
With air flowing around the car with fans, the epoxy will encapsulate the surface crystals of iron oxide leaving them inert. The epoxy will seal under everything sealing the skin.
And to js29's comment, etch primer is another product not recommended for blasted metal. I love etch for straight, and sanded panels. Then primer.
But etch is not to be used under epoxy.
We get some pretty humid days up here in the Summer too, but I guess it's nothing like South Texas ? :dunno:
Quote from: Mr Cuda on March 02, 2022, 12:54:55 PM
I'd like to ask some questions about your experience with flash rust. How is it that.bare metal rusts immediately in south Texas? Is it really that humid outside, or is your metal building causing problems. Leave the doors open.
I'm near Seattle in the rain and have had bare metal projects in the shop for years with no haze or fuzz. I have stuff cut off blasted projects in the scrap pile for weeks in the rain with no orange.
Next, I do not advocate using any rust converter or metal prep on blasted metal.
The blasting should have removed all but the deepest pits. Once primed, those spots could be addressed after the car is encapsulated with epoxy.
While I do like sanding the outside skin of blasted cars with a da and 80 grit, just to smooth them off, there is no way to adequately sand the inside. Just blow it out completely, and roll it over on the rotisserie to get the media out. It will come out forever.
The epoxy will get under and float the remaining dust to the surface, which will then be scuffed off with futher work.
Check to see if your blaster offers plastic or walnut media. While not as bad on a convertible, garnet with a heavy hand can warp panels.
I have my projects plastic blasted with garnet clean up on structure. I've had too many roofs, hoods and doors warped from to back side being blasted. The garnet can blow through holes and structure, and when it hits the outside skin, shrink and warp them.
Back to coatings, metal converter and everyone's favorite, por15, are not to be use on blasted metal.
I'm sure you will post more concerts, but those are some of my pointers, and I've blasted and rotisseried many. And yes wear gloves!!
Thanks for the input. I'm not implying things will rust immediately, rather I need to know what is acceptable and how to properly deal with it so I don't end up with problems down the road. If I can get the car blasted to bare metal and have it sit for a few days, that's great. I am just trying avoid making a costly mistake.
I'd ask you now, what the issue would be with metal conditioning products? Seems like a good thing to do, but I'm the monkey in the room here.
-=C
Well, blasting is a better surface prep than chemicals.
The pores of blasted metal hold the etch.. or iron oxide converter... (2 separate and completely different products) and make it hard to rinse.
Your rinsing blasted metal which is no good. Remaining etch can leach through primer, and unrinsed rust converter can remain gummy.
Now you're chasing your monkey "tail"!
Quote from: Mr Cuda on March 02, 2022, 01:18:09 PM
Well, blasting is a better surface prep than chemicals. The pores of the metal hold the etch.. or iron oxide converter... (2 separate and completely different products) and make it hard to rinse. Your rinsing blasted metal which is no good. Remaining etch can leach through primer, and unrinsed rust converter can remain gummy.
Now you're chasing your monkey "tail"!
Well I have a LOT to learn do this is all great info and I appreciate the it.
Because I have lived bodywork and paint so long, I have the habit of glossing over details like they are unimportant or well known. If you have something specific that needs clarification, just ask.
Quote from: Mr Cuda on March 02, 2022, 03:24:20 PM
Because I have lived bodywork and paint so long, I have the habit of glossing over details like they are unimportant or well known. If you have something specific that needs clarification, just ask.
I think everyone does that. I appreciate your offer, thanks!
I was never able to find any viable blasters in the San Antonio area other than Dr. Blast
There were one or two others but they were more focused on industrial blasting and did
cars as a side thing. Reviews were not very good and I think at least one of them closed
or stopped doing blasting.
If you ask that muscle rod shop in Boerne who they use they mention Dr. Blast
He is not fast or cheap but his work is good. It has made my work much easier.
One thing to note is that any blaster is probably going to want it on a rotisserie so it
can spin to get at the hard to reach spots.
And I concur on the flash rust problem... unprimed parts of my cuda (the swiss cheese
floor that was to be changed, for example) rusted almost instantly after the blasting.
I keep blasted parts in the air conditioned part of my shop so they don't rust before
I get a chance to protect them with primer or phospho.
I've reached out to him in the past, and I did again this morning. Hopefully I'll get something arranged soon. I asked him about the carts he builds and not only did he answer, he made a video about it. Lol, service with a smile.
Hey, if (when) I bring the car to him, maybe I can swing by your place again and see how things are progressing.
-=C
Quote from: Cuda416 on March 04, 2022, 08:50:53 AM
I've reached out to him in the past, and I did again this morning. Hopefully I'll get something arranged soon. I asked him about the carts he builds and not only did he answer, he made a video about it. Lol, service with a smile.
Hey, if (when) I bring the car to him, maybe I can swing by your place again and see how things are progressing.
-=C
Yea I took my 15 inch rally wheels to him to be blasted and he made a special "lazy susan" jig to spin them around in the blast cabinet and made a video about that also.
No problem just let me know when you want to come by