I've posted about this before but gave up trying to find the thread. My Charger has a 440 with A/C. If I start getting on it the engine temp goes up and won't come back down (A/C turned off). I can't recall offhand if the A/C is Vintage Air or Classic Air but the A/C rad almost fully covers the engine rad. I'm wondering if this is blocking too much airflow so, to test this, I'd like to pull the A/C rad. Can I just pull the rad, tape up the hose ends and then reinstall and recharge the system? Is there something more involved or will doing this create other issues?
You should replace the receiver dryer if you can't completely seal the ends , and vacuum the system down before recharging it.
As stated above, you have to open the system to remove the a/c condenser ("radiator"). I can't speak for Canada, but in the U.S. venting refrigerant directly to the atmosphere is a federal crime*. Most repair shops here can suck out the refrigerant for about $100-120. I agree that you should change the receiver/drier once things are opened.
*R-12 refrigerant trashes the ozone layer. 134a doesn't hurt the ozone layer but has a global warming potential 1400 times that of carbon dioxide.
I bought a vacuum pump from Harbor Freight for leak checking and drying out my a/c system, and recharge things myself, or you can pay a shop to do this for you.
As stated above, you have to open the system to remove the a/c condenser ("radiator") Can't speak for Canada, but in the U.S. venting refrigerant directly to the atmosphere is a federal crime. Most repair shops here can suck out the refrigerant for about $100-120. I agree that you should change the receiver/drier once things are opened.
I bought a vacuum pump from Harbor Freight for leak checking and drying out the a/c system, and recharge things myself, or you can pay a shop tondi this for you.
It's pretty easy to see if the A/C rad is blocking airflow. I'd be more inclined to look at t-stat, water pump, verify the engine is actually hot etc. Unless that was all covered already in the other thread?
Quote from: dodj on January 20, 2023, 05:50:18 PM
It's pretty easy to see if the A/C rad is blocking airflow. I'd be more inclined to look at t-stat, water pump, verify the engine is actually hot etc. Unless that was all covered already in the other thread?
Engine is hot, verified by multiple shots with temperature gun. Thermostat works, verified by temperature gun shots on each side of thermostat. Water pump turns and belt is tight so can't see why it wouldn't be pumping. The cooling system will maintain a temperature but if I get horsing around and it goes up to 200 or 210 it won't come back down to the 180s.
@dodj (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/dodj_816) How do you suggest I see if A/C rad is blocking airflow?
210 isn't hot. I wouldn't worry until you're north of 230.
I bet it does eventually come back down but you're just not giving it enough time.
15 minutes of easy driving should be lots of time. If my small block gets warmer than normal operating temp it will come back down in a few minutes. With the big block and easy driving it's about 180. Play with it 190, 200. Play some more 210, 220. It keeps going up but doesn't come down. Now I can't play anymore. :Thud:
Do you have a radiator shroud and have you checked the fan clutch?
Those symptoms do point to a cooling capacity issue with the radiator..... But, I would rule out the fan clutch and shroud first. Also, just because the water pump pulley is spinning doesn't mean the impeller on the other end isn't spinning on the shaft, worn/damaged, or the water pump housing cavitated. What radiator are you running? Stock, cheapo aluminum, tube size/number? What ambient temps is this occurring?
Most A/C condensers do take up all of the front cooling package space with no issue. Is it a stock style, or an aftermarket kind? The aftermarket kinds flow air pretty freely, so I doubt that is the issue. If you really want to remove it, you could always draw down an empty refrigerant tank with a vacuum pump and recover the refrigerant yourself, avoiding venting it to atmosphere or having to waste time with a shop. That's how I do it when I have to discharge an A/C system at home.
I think we can rule out fan/shroud/fan clutch issues if he goes from spirited driving to straight and level cruising as long as he's above 40 mph.
But I agree that water flow would be a concern.
One major fact that we didn't get. Is this a stock built 440 or is there more to this story ? And why do you think 200-220° is hot ?
What exactly does " when I start getting on it " , or "get horsing around " mean ?
Do you have a coolant recovery system installed on this cooling system or just overflow dump ?
How many lbs is you radiator cap rated at ? Have you had the radiator cap tested ?
Done a cooling system pressure check ?
What type and mix of coolant are you using ?
Is this an automatic car with a high stall convertor or a manual transmission ?
As you can see there are many variables to your question.
The more detailed info we get, the more educated possible answers we can give.
No different than going to the Dr. with an issue. More info, better diagnosis.
Quote from: blown motor on January 20, 2023, 08:15:44 PM
@dodj (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/dodj_816)[/url] How do you suggest I see if A/C rad is blocking airflow?
I just think it's easy to look through the ac rad. If you can see through it...it's not blocking.
Have you taken any steps to deal with this in the previous thread? Tested the clutch etc?
Quote from: blown motor on January 21, 2023, 08:38:30 PM
Three core aluminum rad with shroud. Edelbrock top end kit estimated to make about 475 hp. Replaced fan clutch with new one, no difference.
Does your fan match up well with your shroud? In other words, does the fan sit inside the shroud properly front to back? How much gap is there between the fan blades and the shroud?
I went through this same issue on my 70 Coronet. I bought a larger diameter fan from Summit to get the blade/shroud spacing down to a minimum. It made a noticeable improvement on the amount of air being pulled though the radiator over the smaller fan I started with.
Just trying to think of things to look at that haven't been mentioned yet. :alan2cents:
Quote from: blown motor on January 21, 2023, 08:38:30 PM
Three core aluminum rad with shroud. Edelbrock top end kit estimated to make about 475 hp. Replaced fan clutch with new one, no difference.
@MoparLeo (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/moparleo_479) Getting on it and horsing around means anything that will put back in the seat. Thought you could have figured that out.
Well, to me this means you have the pump and the engine block left. If it were me I'd order up a 440 source aluminium pump and housing (I did it on my car just to lose some weight). Made a big difference for me. I don't have numbers but prior to the change the temp read exactly in the middle on the stock gauge and would vary up and down a bit depending on how 'spirited' you drove. For Leo, similar to 'getting on it'..lol JK. After the swap it reads on the quarter mark all the time. Never moves. I think, but don't know, that buying the 440 source pump and housing together gets a better match. Impeller depth in the housing is important and when you mix brands there will be variation. Just my opinion after reading various pump threads over the years.
Never answered about coolant type/mix/percentage. Recovery system or just overflow. Radiator cap rating . These are all important questions if you are serious about diagnosing the problem.
If you can hear boiling in the system. it must be low on coolant/or air pocket in system. Pressure loss. And/or low on coolant % to distilled water.
https://www.dewitts.com/blogs/news/13852841-what-pressure-cap-rating-should-i-use
My back round is 40+ years of automotive service/repair. You need information to diagnose, especially since we are not there and just going by what you say.
The best you can expect are several educated guesses.
You need to do the testing, not just keep asking.
Diagnostics are a step by step process. Can take time and effort. And proper tools.
History... has this engine ever run cool or not since a recent change of a sort eg.. parts or adjustments. Everything is cause and effect.
If it was fine before, work back wards. engine driven fans are only efficient below 40 mph.
After that speed the fan does nil for cooling the radiator. Remember that the radiators job is to remove the heat from the coolant via heat "radiation" Like an electronic heat sink.
All cars with a/c have the condenser blocking radiator airflow.
You must solve the engines heart problem first before you go after the a/c. The a/c just points out the cars cooling system deficiencies.
It doesn't make the car run hot, it already did that and the fact that the temp does not go back down shows you your cooling system is inadequate for your engine/a/c combination.
Now when you get the engine hot, do you slow down to cool it off ? If so this is the opposite of what you need to do. Turn the a/c off and cruise around above 45 mph or get on the hi way or freeway To get more air flowing through the core and then it must cool down unless there is a blockage in the system.
Modern cars with larger engines generally run 2 electric fans. When you turn the a/c on most cars will have one of the fans immediately go on. This is because now you not only need to remove the heat from the cars cooling system but also the heat in the a/c condenser which is removing the heat from the refrigerant. They continue to work even when parked and shut off. You can hear cooling fans running in the parking lot in the summertime when every one is using their a/c. Since the engine is turned off the coolant is no longer flowing. This causes the engine to act as a heat sink and it gets hotter. The fans help keep the temp down in the radiator until the engine is started again. They run at a high speed that does not rely on engine rpms to work.
The cooling system was factory engineered for the stock engine and accessories. When ever you upgrade/modify the system, the rest of the system requires upgrading as well. Cause and effect again.
You have 2 separate cooling systems at work.
This is why when the radiators temperature rises, the transfer of heat from the radiator to the condenser makes the a/c less efficient and it will not blow as cool as it does when the engine is cool.
What degree thermostat do you have? A thermostat does not control temperature it is a thermo valve that opens and closes at a pre- determined temp. This just allows the coolant to now flow to the radiator. The coolant needs to be n the radiator long enough to have it's heat removed otherwise it will not cool down very much.
Putting in a 180° thermostat does not mean it will now run at that temp.
With todays fuels engines run hotter than 50 years ago when these cars were designed to run high octane/leaded fuel.
Contrary to what most people believe The higher the octane the slower the fuel burns.
That is why high octane tunes require more timing advance.
Regular fuel runs hotter than premium fuels do. That is the reason that running higher octane fuel in a car designed for regular show little return.
You may end up running hi-efficiency dual electric fans as part of your cooling system cure.
It probably needs to go to a cooling system specialist in your are to properly diagnose the situation and be able to do pressure testing and such.
And as far as the back in the seat comment, it was not a question of ignorance. Everything means something different everybody, follow ? Do you "get on it" for a few seconds ? Or on the freeway for a long time ? Or race the car. Anything you do in your driving style that is out of the "ordinary" places more load on the complete car. From the engine to the trans to the driveline , sus[pension, brake system etc.
I asked about whether it was an automatic and if so what stall of convertor is in it. This also affect engine temperature as well as transmission temp.
Coolant is Prestone 50/50, the yellow/green stuff. There is an overflow bottle.
Getting on it pattern might look like this: coming out of town at 30 mph, hit the 50 sign and floor it up to 70 and let off, don't want a ticket. Come up behind a slow poke, pull out to pass and floor it up to 70 and let off. Get to intersection, turn off on to a secondary road and punch it up to 70 or 80. This covers about 5 miles. Each time I punch it the temp goes up and 5 miles of driving at 55-60 doesn't bring it back down at all. Now I'm done playing, don't want it going to 240 or 250. :Thud:
Quote from: blown motor on January 22, 2023, 07:16:28 AM
@dodj (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/dodj_816) Will that pump have higher capacity than the stock pump? I'm comparing the cooling pattern on this to my 340. With the 340 I can play all I want and the temp is good.
I can't give you flow numbers. I replaced the stock cast iron housing and pump with aluminium mainly because I was putting my 440 on a diet to lighten the front end. When I made the change the engine ran cooler - about a quarter sweep of the stock gauge. Mine sits at the first hash mark on the gauge and NEVER moves anymore. Idling at a light on a hot summer day used to make it move up slowly, now it doesn't. So evidence indicates better flow imo. I know, not very scientific, but that was my experience.
BTW, I run a 190* tstat.
Change your overflow to a coolant recovery system. this will eliminate air pockets in the system as this keeps the radiator always full. Go to twin thermal controlled electric fans, like modern cars install on the engine side as sucking fans.
These two things will help any car to keep the temps down. Something as simple as a malfunctioning radiator cap can cause overheating issue.
At the very least you should have a 16 lb. cap and test it. Even new caps can be bad.
This helps keep the boiling point at a higher temp. A bad cap will lower your boiling point and lead to boil overs.
Read the links that I list for more detailed info.
https://www.cruisingworld.com/understanding-coolant-recovery-bottles/
https://www.cleveland.com/automotive/plaindealer/2014/10/electric_fans_provide_plenty_of_benefits_for_restoration_and_hotrod_builds.html
Sorry, I do have a recovery system.
Murray, here's a wild thought, do you know if the block in your car was filled? To check you'd have to drain the coolant and carefully measure how much there was or how much it takes to refill it. It's possible that when buddy was having the hot engine built, that they put in some block filler and that would restrict the volume and it's cooling ability. As for the condenser, if they were a problem, pretty much every car on the road these days would be over-heating. Does the lwr rad hose have a spring in it? :huh:
Have you investigated the water pump as a possible issue? A/C used a different water pump from the factory? Another thing is the pullies, if they are not right that will cause the pump to spin slower or faster ?
Look at post 191 and further....
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=60599.175
So I finally got back at this. I borrowed a system pressure tester from a friend. I'm working with three vehicles for comparison purposes, 74 Challenger, 79 Power Wagon and the Charger. Both the Challenger and the PW caps held pressure but the Charger cap didn't. It's the Big A cap in the pictures. I could build pressure in both the Challenger and the PW systems but not in the Charger. I do think that the issue there is the neck on the aluminum rad in the Charger. When I put the Big A cap on I can wiggle it round, the same if I put the Challenger cap on but the Challenger cap is tight on the Challenger. Same situation for the PW cap.
Also, both the Challenger and the Charger have 26" x 2 3/4" rads. The Challenger is three core steel and the Charger is two core aluminum. But the cores in the Charger rad are wider and it looks to me like it would have just as much core capacity. Or am I wrong?
Do you think that the lower radiator hose is collapsing when you get on it? That would cause it to restrict and overheat.
I also installed a high volume water pump, made a big difference for me.
I checked today and there is not a spring. For what they cost I think I'll get one and put it in. Then we know it can't be that.
I'm guessing it's stock water pump, or else it's an aftermarket pump that's painted the same colour as the engine. Not sure how to tell.
How do ID the rad so I can figure out what the flow is suppose to be?
Maybe I misunderstood.... Did you say one of the radiators is a STEEL core?!
Check again. From old school OEM to modern day OEM AND aftermarket, I have only ever seen radiators made from brass/copper or aluminum.
As a metallurgist, I can tell you that steel is a terrible material to build a heat exchanger from. Strength vs weight vs cost for a bridge or a building? Perfect. As a light weight non-load-bearing heat exchanger? Probably the worst material to choose.
Quote from: blown motor on January 30, 2023, 04:22:24 PM
I checked today and there is not a spring. For what they cost I think I'll get one and put it in.
If the hose is in fact collapsing, replace the hose. It's old. Don't add a spring. They restrict flow, not by a lot, but they reduce it.
Ya maybe I should. I doubt it's an old hose but it didn't seem to have a lot of structural integrity either.
As far as radiators go, which is a better for cooling?
1. 2 rows of 1" tubes
2. 3 rows of 3/4" tubes
3. 4 rows of 1/2" tubes
4. It doesn't matter
Thanks group!
Quote from: dodj on January 31, 2023, 04:30:05 AM
Quote from: blown motor on January 30, 2023, 04:22:24 PM
I checked today and there is not a spring. For what they cost I think I'll get one and put it in.
If the hose is in fact collapsing, replace the hose. It's old. Don't add a spring. They restrict flow, not by a lot, but they reduce it.
I checked a new hose at Napa this morning and it's just as soft as the hose on the car. A spring might be the only way to go. It might restrict flow a wee bit but not near as much as a collapsed hose.
wait....why are we focused on the lower rad hose???? Did I miss something here.
Murray, you said the rad cap is lose on the Charger rad, that seems to be a problem to me.
When you said you cannot build pressure in the Charger's rad, you mean you put the pressure tester on the rad and it would not build any pressure. Same deal when testing the cap.
If that is the case that is the problem I would focus on. The rad should be able to hold pressure, if not you will have a problem.
If the cap is not tight, I would start with a new cap that fits properly.
sounds like the radiator is out of shape if the pressure tester won't seal tight enough to allow you to build pressure.
Cannot find any name on the red as it sits. Could remove fan shroud and look, otherwise I would have to dig deeper to try and find a name.
So this is a new cap. I can't see how the cooling system can build pressure with a cap this loose. Agree or disagreee?
Video is marked private
Quote from: dodj on January 31, 2023, 11:42:52 AM
Video is marked private
PRIVATE...not sure I want to see it now!
Haha! I fixed it.
Quote from: blown motor on January 31, 2023, 12:35:54 PM
Haha! I fixed it.
um no that does not look right.
I think that will be most of your problem.
While I don't know if that is ALL of your problem. Fix that first.
Quote from: dodj on January 31, 2023, 02:57:51 PM
While I don't know if that is ALL of your problem. Fix that first.
But how do I fix that? Can you get a longer rad cap? I have another thread going to try and ID the rad so I can contact the company. Otherwise I might have to have a new neck welded in I guess.
I think I'll try to get this solved and put a spring in the lower hose and wait until spring to try it out.
Pretty easy to tighten up. Large washer with rubber glued on one side to seal to filler neck. I can't tell by the photos if your core tubes are plugged but I bet this rad cap problem will fix your car. I'd put a spring in the hose too but at my age I'd try to get the rad cap squared away before dumping the water and putting a spring in the hose.
Yes: To take up some height and ensure the cap seals. Right now it is too short. Unless I misunderstood.
No you didn't misunderstand. Good idea, I hadn't thought of doing it that way. Thanks. :worship:
You said in the beginning that you had a coolant recovery system, not just an overflow.
The radiator cap for a recovery system is different and you must use one designed for a recovery system or the system will not function. The recovery cap has a 2 way valve system. This allows coolant to go into the bottle when the system heats up and then allows the vacuum in the system to draw coolant from the bottle back into the radiator when it cools down.
A far as the cap not reaching the bottom of the neck to seal, what does the old cap look like? Is it longer than the one you bought ?
Simply measure the neck depth of the other 2 radiators that you have in the other 2 cars and compare.[/font]
https://www.allpar.com/threads/cooling-systems-the-surprisingly-wide-range-of-radiator-caps.229050/
That remind me. My washer as a spacer idea won't work if it blocks the overflow line, you'll have to make sure the overflow line would be above the spacer for it to work properly.
Odd. Most manufacturers use a standard sized neck to avoid just these problems. This shows that the radiator was never holding pressure which could be causing most of your cooling problems.
You may have to replace the radiator or have a competent shop TIG weld a new neck on this one.
Fix the cap and the problems may just go away.
I would try here.
https://knowledge.northernfactory.com/en/articles/24-how-to-choose-the-correct-radiator-cap
looks like there are different size rad caps!
Today's report: we noticed that the flange on the top of the neck was bent up a bit on the right side, see pic. This would prevent the cap from seating deep enough and once we fixed that we could start to build pressure but we lost it quickly. Then we cut a rubber washer and put it in the bottom of the neck and that was a little better. So we found another, better price of rubber and that was better still but we still have a very slow leak down. The search is on for the ultimate rubber washer. :D But that still doesn't explain why the neck is weird unless it was just a manufacturing hiccup.
I'd be researching for a suitable replacement rad.....
You shouldn't need a lot of thickness Murray. I've got some sheet rubbers in various sizes that a friend gave me and if you've got a # then let me know and I'll take a caliper and go looking. I'd buy a stock replacement cap and dry fit it to see how that fits. Let me know. :bigthumb:
and if it does not seal tightly and allow pressure to build, it is going to blow the coolant out...
I have a 26" 3 row Champion Aluminium. Been sufficient for my 440. BUT, If stock appearing is important to you, buy something else.