Buddy of mine says that we HAVE to use 10W-30 or heavier oil WITH zinc additive such as Valvoline VR1 with my 74 Challenger and its 360 hyudraulic flat tappet valves, or risk ruining the camshaft. Now that stuff is expensive!! Especially with a 7 qt pan.
Now, maybe i'm stupid, and i know that oil from the 60-70's had zinc in it, and today's modern oils do not. However, it would seem to me that today's modern oils especially synthetic oils without zinc additive will protect as well if not better than the stuff made in the 60's and 70's. Surely technology on oil has improved !!
I have been using NAPA's own synthetic oils in a 10-30w blend.
Opinions??
New oils are formulated for newer engines and have roller lifters. It's more a EPA thing taking the zinc out. Flat tappet
cams need the zinc to survive. Your taking a big risk running it without. Like the commercials say "it's the lifeblood of the engine". Look at it this way. How many miles are really going to drive it a year and how many times will you need to change the oil? Probably twice at most. Put you some good high quality oil with high zinc in it along with a quality filter. Not worth the risk of having a cam go down. I run Lucas Hot Rod oil or Driven HR1. Both have high zinc and Wix oil filters.
Here's a thread on the topic in case you missed it.
https://forum.e-bodies.org/engine-transmission-and-rear-end/4/lets-talk-oil-and-filters/2903/
The shop the rebuilt mine recommended Rotella T and 1/2 bottle of Comp Cams Engine Break In Additive. Not that expensive an oil change especially since it"s done only once a year. With your deep pan, maybe use a whole bottle of the additive.
I know a guy who builds a lot of racing motors in addition to his regular auto parts store. He swears by using oil with high zinc in older engines. I use Kendall in all of my stuff and love it. Little extra expense but I'd rather not risk any problems down the road.
The best oil to use is SJ rated , the last oil that will keep the cam alive is SL , anything SM OR SN will kill the cam
20-50 w oils are still SL rated & will work but they are too heavy IMO , it robs HP & the engine shoould be built with slightly more brg clearance using 20-50
One trick is to use agriculture oils , if it is for offroad use you have a lot of SJ or SL oils available in all weights .
Personally I use 10-30 or 10-40 weight oils but try to always find SJ oil , the other option is using cam additives as above or using specially formulated oils such as Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs oils , I used to distribute Z-Alt too but it is no longer made unfortunatly :alan2cents:
The only things I know for sure are what has worked for me.
In a 440 with stock valvesprings and a mild summit hydraulic flat tappet cam, I ran the cheapest farm store oil I could find. 10k miles later, pulled the cam and lifters, they're still like new, getting reused in a 400 build.
In a 360, similar cam and springs (i didn't build it), also ran cheapest oil available. After about 10k miles and neglecting to change oil for 5k miles it never wiped. Sold car, its still a runner driver as far as I know.
In a Hemi, semi-aggressive beehive springs, mild solid flat tappet cam. Ran strictly VR1 for the first couple oil changes. Recently, I cut it to half cheap oil, half VR1 and it hasn't made a lick of difference.
Because of these 3 experiences, I'm of the opinion that for near-stock cams and springs that are already broken in, the level of zinc compound just doesn't matter very much.
I had a hydraulics professor in college tell me the purpose of the zinc compound (zinc-phosphorus?) in motor oil was to help the oil cling to the smooth machined/polished surfaces. The reason It has been reduced so much is it ruins the catalyst in the catalytic converters if it goes through the exhaust.
BUT, as some have already said, running the "good" oil isn't THAT expensive, and its cheap insurance in the long run.
:iagree:
Expensive oil is cheap compared to an engine !!
Quote from: Chryco Psycho on October 16, 2017, 07:25:23 AM
:iagree:
Expensive oil is cheap compared to an engine !!
:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:
I have a .535 Lunati cam and run Lucas Hot Rod 10-30 high zinc oil - https://lucasoil.com/products/hot-rod-high-performance/hot-rod-classic-car-10w-30-motor-oil
Valvoline VR1 is the same price, give or take 50cents, than all the other stuff on the shelf here. Been using it for years, never had a cam fail. :alan2cents: Protect your investment. :rebelflag"
Joe Gibbs oil was on sale on Summit recently. $7.99 a Qt.
Brad Penn oil is a little more $.
I like the Joe Gibbs or Brad Penn as well. You need zinc in a flat tappet engine. 10-30 is what I like to use as well. The Comp Cams additive gets thrown in as well. A lost cam lobe means an engine teardown at best.
As others have said I think good oil is cheap in the long run.
However if your are chasing a cheap high zinc alternative, fleet type diesel engine oil might be worth looking at.
I wouldn't run it in an expensive built engine but I do use it in any older flat tappet engine that I get my hands on (say I pick up an old car with a running engine in it).
Who HAS wiped a cam? What doesn't work? THAT is the most useful info we can have in a thread like this.
Sometimes I think this "high zinc oil" business is the classic car enthusiast's version of Brawndo. I'm not going to buy into it being beneficial until I see some scientific testing done.
Quote from: Flatdad on October 17, 2017, 04:54:23 AM
Who HAS wiped a cam? What doesn't work? THAT is the most useful info we can have in a thread like this.
Sometimes I think this "high zinc oil" business is the classic car enthusiast's version of Brawndo. I'm not going to buy into it being beneficial until I see some scientific testing done.
Good question.
What exactly is "lost a cam lobe"? Just some wear which effects the lift or duration?
I have seen few cam lobes go down over the years on other peoples or customer cars. I have bought a couple cars with some round lobes. Was the reason because of oil? I don't think anyone can definitely say. I personally have never had a problem myself. But I always run premium oil in my hot rods. I run my cars pretty hard and it gives me a great piece of mind knowing I have done everything I can to help the motor live another day.
Here's what Comp Cams says about it.
Engine Oil Selection
As we touched on earlier, another major factor in the increase of flat tappet camshaft failure is your favorite brand of engine oil. Simply put, today's engine oil is just not the same as it used to be, thanks to ever tightening environmental regulations. The EPA has done a great job in reducing emissions and the effects of some of the ingredients found in traditional oils; however these changes to the oil have only made life tougher on your flat tappet camshaft. The lubricity of the oil and specifically the reduction of the important anti-wear additives such as zinc and phosphorus, which help break-in and overall camshaft life, have been drastically reduced. In terms of oil selection, we recommend oil with the proper level of "ZDDP", Zinc Dialkyl Dithiosphosphate additive fortification. Recent market trends and misinformation have led to a new and adverse side effect known as "Overloading on ZDDP". When overloading on ZDDP, the additive can actually cause blocking of other important additives, such as friction modifiers or detergent agents. It is imperative that the ZDDP level is carefully specified and blended to correct concentrations.
Engine Oil Supplements & Additives
Making certain that the camshaft and lifters are properly lubricated upon installation will
guarantee that they are protected during the critical start-up of your newly-built engine. COMP Cams® offers the right product for this job (COMP Cams® Part #153), and it is available in several different size containers for engine builder convenience. COMP Cams® also has a line of Break-In Oils (COMP Cams® Part #1590 [10w30] and #1595 [20w50]) which have a proprietary formula that includes the proper amount of critical additives, including ZDDP (Zinc & Phosphorus), Molybdenum, detergents and high grade base oil to give you the most optimum oil for the break-in and long-term running of all your purposefully chosen performance engine components. If you have a preferred oil with which you feel comfortable, we strongly recommend the use of COMP Cams® Break-In Oil Additive (COMP Cams® Part #159) during break-in. While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This proprietary blend of anti-wear ZDDP fortification, anti-fiction Molybdenum, and extreme pressure additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been forced to remove from off-the-shelf oil. These specialized COMP Cams® lubricants are the best "insurance policy" you can buy, and are the first step to avoiding durability problems with your new flat tappet camshaft
This is what Driven HR1 (Joe Gibbs Racing) says about their oil.
STORAGE PROTECTION - Uses the same oil additive technology developed for the U.S. Military for storing and shipping their combat equipment. Protects against rust and corrosion so your engine is protected even when it's not running.
HIGH ZINC CONTENT - Higher levels of Zinc (ZDDP) than regular passenger car oils. Delivers proper anti-wear protection for older style push-rod and flat-tappet engines.
CAMSHAFT WEAR PROTECTION - Superior camshaft wear protection chemistry. The same wear protection found in Driven Racing Oil which has powered Joe Gibbs Racing to multiple NASCAR Championships.
Ok, Im not sold but you have done a good job of scaring me.
Sure zinc and phosphorous levels which helped prevent cam wear especially in flat tappet older engines are now heavily reduced due to possible damage to catalytic converters. Still, 40+ years of technology to me says that while zinc is missing, the improved technology provides an oil that is probably better than the old with zinc. Back in the 60's you were LUCKY to get over 75,000 miles without an engine overhaul. Heck 40 years ago they didn't have synthetic oils !
However, if i use a quality 10W-30 full synthetic oil at about $4 a quart when on sale (that is what is currently in my 360), and then add in some zinc/phosporous such as in Rislone Engine Oil Zinc supplement, then i should have the best of both worlds for only about $8 extra for the Rislone Zinc supplement. It also states Im chosing Rislone because it is readily available at the major (advance, Autozone, etc) part stores and Comp Cams break in oil, and GM EOS isnt in my area. Neither is Valvoline VR1 readily available except in racing shops and its expensive.. Also Rislone states "makes new oils work in older engines" not that it is a engine building use.
Opinions on this route ?
another question...
I found this chart:
Listed here are the current specifications for maximum amounts of additives to achieve the API ratings. P is phosphorus, Zn is zinc, and B is boron. Each figure is total parts per million of additives. These can also be roughly expressed in percentages by multiplying by .0001 (1301 PPM = .13 percent, 994 PPM = .099 percent)
API P Zn B
SJ 1301 1280 151
CI-4 1150 1374 83
SL 994 1182 133
CJ-4 4819 1014 26
SM 770 939 127
Article also explains that "s" means spark engines and "c" means compression..i.e. diesels. The second letter is the service level designation standard and that the go up... So, SA would mean early standards and SN the latest. Here SJ shows the highest level of zine and that many engine builders require a minimum of 1200 so SJ (1280 is a little over that) over that.
Looking in my tractor supply I found Castrol GTX High Mileage Synthetic was api ratings of : SN, SM, SL, SJ SN is the latest but it also says SJ. SO DOES THIS MEAN it has the 1380 show in the chart or was lower...??????? I.e good oil for flat tappet or not. 5qt was only $22.95.
do you have the specs for SN
I would contact Castrol , in reality you cannot meet both SJ & SN
I found this information. Note that it's from 2006, I don't know if formulas have changed.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/oil-w-zinc-content-recommended-for-older-engines.138386/
Ive sent an email to Castrol...will see what they reply
Here is the emails with Castrol. They didnt exactly answer my question of how can their High Mileage Synthetic list both SN and SJ API rating?? however here is their response:
"Contactus@BP com <contactus@bp.com>
To:
torockio@yahoo.com
Oct 18 at 9:30 AM
Thank you for contacting Castrol North America.
Castrol GTX Magnatec does contain a zinc additive.
Engines that have flat tappet cams are very small in number today and will generally require more zinc than is contained in today's motor oils.
Castrol GTX Magnatec performance has never been examined in these type of engines since they are very much niche in the market.
In turn our recommendation would be to use an oil with more zinc to ensure protection. If the engine is a stock engine and not significantly modified for higher valve spring loads, Castrol EDGE 5W-50 contains extra Zinc.
If valve spring loads have been significantly altered beyond stock design additional supplemental zinc beyond what was contained in motor oils when these engines were mainstream may be necessary.
Thank you again for contacting Castrol, we value your patronage!
Castrol Consumer Relations
Ticket: https://ccrdesk.freshdesk.com/helpdesk/tickets/22251
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On Tue, 17 Oct at 8:06 PM , Donald Torockio <torockio@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi
Can you tell me if any of your Castrol oils contain enough zinc (zddp) to protect the flat tappet valves in my high performance 1974 Dodge Challenger with a modified flat tappet 360 cubic inch engine.
I was looking at an oil industry zinc content explanation of the API service levels.
This chart says that SJ oils contain 1300 ppm phosphorus, and 1280 ppm zinc and that SM and SN contain less than half of that amount. Looking at the labels on your Castrol GTX High Mileage Synthetic 10W-30 oil, it shows API ratings of : SN, SM, SL, SJ. This is confusing to men as far as zinc is concerned.
Which level of Zinc is it?? Is this oil good for a flat tappet high performance engine??
Thank you
Sincerely
My interpretation is that they are recommending Castrol Edge as their highest zinc content, and PLUS adding in a zinc additive...
Yes: I admire their honesty.