This is AGAR's latest project car just in today.....
I lost count at about 50 well packed, well labeled boxes :unbelievable:
What's the background story? Someone started it, but then what happened?
Same owner for 30 plus years.....starting taking it apart himself. He first contacted me in 2005 about restoring it... :yes:
He's going to be blown away when he's driving it next summer! Going to make him wish he sent it to you sooner. :checkmail:
Quote from: anlauto on May 18, 2017, 03:19:49 PM
Same owner for 30 plus years.....starting taking it apart himself. He first contacted me in 2005 about restoring it... :yes:
We've seen pictures of how you receive some cars in pieces, at least this one's organized.
cool new project! what are the specs on this one? how many storage units or cargo containers are you up to? I image they all take up a lot of space
Quote from: ec_co on May 18, 2017, 04:31:32 PM
cool new project! what are the specs on this one? how many storage units or cargo containers are you up to? I image they all take up a lot of space
Actually I'm shipping out three cars this month and taking in two.....So it's all good. I have four containers.
Quote from: ec_co on May 18, 2017, 04:31:32 PM
cool new project! what are the specs on this one? how many storage units or cargo containers are you up to? I image they all take up a lot of space
Well....first off.....of course it's a FC7 car :( White top :bigthumb: and white interior :twothumbsup:
It's not being restored back to the "sheet" but it's going to have some subtle upgrades. It's an original 318 3spd Barracuda and will have a 340 4spd in it....but remain a "Barracuda" if you know what I mean..... ;)
Should be real cool when it's done.... :drooling:
Those sound like okay mods to me. I guess you got tired of sunroof, air cars?
White /Tan looks nice too!
Is it done yet??? :pixiepop:
I have a similar side project (Ford) my brother abandoned after 30 years of complete disassembly and purchasing of parts.
Look forward to seeing it's progress.
Quote from: YellowThumper on May 22, 2017, 06:36:16 PM
Is it done yet??? :pixiepop:
I have a similar side project (Ford) my brother abandoned after 30 years of complete disassembly and purchasing of parts.
Look forward to seeing it's progress.
Just about...'nother year or so I'll wrap it up ! :banana:
Wow. Well at least some of the work is already done.
Purple with white interior will be nice when done.
Jason
Quote from: Cudajason on May 23, 2017, 06:33:33 AM
Wow. Well at least some of the work is already done.
Purple with white interior will be nice when done.
Jason
No extra bumpers, sorry
@Cudajason (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/cudajason_260)
I think it is cool that the owner is going to keep the flat hood. Do not see that much anymore! :D
How long will the paint and body take to do on a car like that?
Quote from: Spikedog08 on May 23, 2017, 10:02:51 AM
I think it is cool that the owner is going to keep the flat hood. Do not see that much anymore! :D
mine will stay flat too. might be kind of hilarious to do a slant 6 shaker though, lol (the shaker setup would almost double it's worth!).
My favorite part....scrapping undercoating off with a torch and scraper.....nice full undercoat car too :crying:
@ErikR (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/erikr_515) :('
Quote from: Cuda Cody on May 26, 2017, 03:17:14 PM
That looks like a really solid car too. Just a small are on the floor board, but the rest looks fantastic. :banana:
Quote from: anlauto on May 26, 2017, 02:49:05 PM
My favorite part....scrapping undercoating off with a torch and scraper.....nice full undercoat car too :crying: @ErikR (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/erikr_515) :('
Looks can be deceiving, wait until it's media blasted..... :unbelievable:
I do a lot of laying on my back too. old habits die hard.
:lurking:
always interested in watching your progress
judy
After about 10 hours of scrapping factory undercoating :drunk: ...It's off to the media blasters....
So are you slowly paving your entire back yard with all that tar you have removed over the years?
Gotta put it somewhere???
Hope the blasting comes out well with few additional surprises.
Nicely done buddy. Looking forward to seeing what she looks like after the blasters. :fingerscrossed: So far she's looking pretty good.
Well, it's not the worst car that I've done. :thinking:
Ha, ha: Yes, I don't think Alan is scared of anything.
Back from the blasters....Certainly not the worst car I've done :D
....I wouldn't even know where to start. I've got a lot of respect for people who can do this.
If anyone can do that car right, it's you! That scares me a bit, but when you start looking at it in little sections and take one step at a time it's very savable. Glad to see you're the one saving it. :drinkingbud:
That would scare the "H" out me to start that one.
I have been known to be ambitious. But that is way worse than I would even consider tackling. :o
I'm guessing the left rear K member bolt was rusted solid & you cut the area out of the frame?
Ah the stories these old cars keep to themselves under the shiny paint. I always find it interesting looking at old repairs from decades past, it's usually rare to find quality old repairs. Most repairs are pretty shaky on these old cars.
Nice! Lotsa work ahead. Please post many detailed pictures of the body work if you can, I love to see how its done by the pro's.
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on June 08, 2017, 02:24:32 PM
Ah the stories these old cars keep to themselves under the shiny paint. I always find it interesting looking at old repairs from decades past, it's usually rare to find quality old repairs. Most repairs are pretty shaky on these old cars.
I wonder if that is because our cars has gained so much value, so people are doing it better, or if that just was the standard 15-20 years ago?
Quote from: 1 Wild R/T on June 08, 2017, 02:08:00 PM
I'm guessing the left rear K member bolt was rusted solid & you cut the area out of the frame?
Actually someone had welded the K Frame to the frame rail at some point....
@ErikR (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/erikr_515) took care of it before bringing the car to me :clapping:
Good to see the car being saved & getting a first class restoration.... I'm sure your thrilled, along with some feelings of apprehension...
Wer'e all crazy :looney:
Putting this much time, money and love into 45 year old cars... :D
I like it!
When the time comes to do the 'cuda, what scares me is not what's there, but how much isn't there... :Thud:
judy
Quote from: soundcontrol on June 08, 2017, 02:36:34 PM
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on June 08, 2017, 02:24:32 PM
Ah the stories these old cars keep to themselves under the shiny paint. I always find it interesting looking at old repairs from decades past, it's usually rare to find quality old repairs. Most repairs are pretty shaky on these old cars.
I wonder if that is because our cars has gained so much value, so people are doing it better, or if that just was the standard 15-20 years ago?
That's just how they did it back then and nobody ever thought it was a butcher job. They didn't seem to have the foresight for longevity. They patched up the rust holes the best they could and painted them. The guy that did that car probably charged 300 or 400 bucks for the whole car.
Yes: I bought a MIG welder before a lot of local bodyshops had them. A lot of experts told me to overlap rather than butt weld too. Too their credit though, these cars were only designed to go 100,000 miles and maybe last 10 years when new.
All things considered it doesn't look that bad. Keith will make it solid and strong again.
It's always interesting how E-bodies don't always rust consistently. For example, the cowl looks pretty good, and considering the other damage, one would expect the drain area below the wiper motor to be completely rotted out. Yet it seems to be mint, along with the majority of the firewall.
Added more pictures to my web site http://www.alangallantautomotiverestoration.com/FC7RAG.html :bradsthumb:
Thanks Alan. It's always fun to watch the progress on your projects.
With all the body panels in place, lined up and ready to go....Keith Sim can finally call it quits...
Body and paint work on this one will be handled by Neil's Autobody in Burlington, the same guys who painted that red Challenger convertible for me last year...
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on June 17, 2017, 07:42:43 AM
Thanks Alan. It's always fun to watch the progress on your projects.
That's why I have delivered /picked up stuff from Alan in the past. He has really cool cars that you can admire , crawl under to see just how its done , He gets free delivery , I get a free education.
Hey Alan, is Neil himself around the shop still these days or is Bill running the whole show? I always liked Neil and he's got some great car stories to tell if you ever get the chance to get him talking! They did a 55 Chrysler that they have some tales to tell, ask Bill. :cheers:
Nice job Alan..
Are the vert quarters Ken's conversions or did your shop convert them? If the later, any detail step by step pictures?
Quote from: larry4406 on January 08, 2019, 03:04:29 AM
Nice job Alan..
Are the vert quarters Ken's conversions or did your shop convert them? If the later, any detail step by step pictures?
My guy, Keith Sim has the proper equipment to make them, (about six hours a side) sorry I don't have step by step photos.
We installed Ken's in the past as well (customer insisted) but it adds a significant cost to the restoration.
So Alan,
Have you ever got a rust free car to work on ?? LOL
JS27
Quote from: js27 on January 11, 2019, 11:48:16 AM
So Alan,
Have you ever got a rust free car to work on ?? LOL
JS27
The AAR Cuda I'm doing currently for member SYDWAZ is about the closest thing to "rust free" however I haven't had it blasted yet ... :o
Well the guys at Neil's Autobody have had the car three weeks now and are really cranking it out....The body work is finished and they are now blocking it out and working on the FC7 spray out....Should see the first coats of colour by the end of the month..
While they were busy doing their thing....I got busy this week with the motor supplied by Erik...
Just got the 90* oil filter adaptor today from member mccannix :twothumbsup: so I'll get that painted and installed next week...
Looking good!
Great work as always, did 340's come stock with the 90 degree oil filter adapter or were they added later for convenience in oil changes ?
Quote from: 76orangewagon on January 19, 2019, 06:12:51 AM
Great work as always, did 340's come stock with the 90 degree oil filter adapter or were they added later for convenience in oil changes ?
Well you tell me.... :o
I know it's not an OE restoration or original 340 car, so it doesn't matter much, but weren't 340 fuel pumps not installed yet when the engines were painted, therefore not orange?
Also dipstick handle should be black?
Those are several details I learned when restoring my T/A.
I did an oil change and replaced my oil filter last fall, for the first time since finishing the car. I don't recall having so much trouble replacing it's oil filter on it back in my younger days. Horizontal up above the torsion bar and exhaust, I had to borrow a real long extension and metal oil filter end cap socket tool from my buddy to get it off, what a pita! Made me appreciate the big block oil filter location even though it pours oil on the K member when you remove.
You're probably right....I never said anything I do is "correct"....I just do it they way I like it. :twothumbsup:
I will change the dipstick handle, that was an oversight on my part...I usually do them black.
Since I am doing a 71 with the center dump manifold and a short oil filter I should have room, I see where the long oil filter give you clearance issues.
Looks great, nice to be at this stage.
Quote from: 76orangewagon on January 19, 2019, 08:46:22 AM
Since I am doing a 71 with the center dump manifold and a short oil filter I should have room, I see where the long oil filter give you clearance issues.
You will not need to the 90 degree adapter with those manifolds. I run those manifolds and have no issues.
Jason
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on February 09, 2019, 08:00:53 AM
Looks great, nice to be at this stage.
We're past that stage....
I have no idea....I'll head that way tomorrow and see.
Okay, so today I visited the body shop. This is a new shop I'm using, they painted one red Challenger convertible for me last year and it turned out nice so I thought I would send Erik's car there.
Last year, I never really went to visit their shop to see their process, so I was kind of confused with the order in which they do things.
So all the body work was done and blocked out and primed in the previous pictures...Today I was surprised to see purple, especially on the shell, because the majority of the shell, under the hood and such wasn't in final primer yet.
So they told me that ALL the purple I see today is only what they call their "colour block coat" it will all be block sanded off and then used as a base for the final coats of FC7 :idea: The reason they did only the quarters and doors is because it's much easier to remove the doors and tape off only the quarters when finishing the rest of the shell :huh:
Anyways...this is why I let the body shop guys take car of the body work ....I really have no idea :looney: I just want to see the finished product and I'm not too worried how they get there !
I like the rims Tony :)
Not sure how they're going to fit on that Mustang door in the first picture... :haha:
Can anybody spot the difference from last month's picture ? :takealook:
:unbelievable: :wowzers: :banana: Wow!!
Quote from: anlauto on February 11, 2019, 10:30:37 AM
Can anybody spot the difference from last month's picture ? :takealook:
I'm a little shaky on that one.
Quote from: Cuda_mark on February 11, 2019, 11:11:18 AM
Quote from: anlauto on February 11, 2019, 10:30:37 AM
Can anybody spot the difference from last month's picture ? :takealook:
I'm a little shaky on that one.
;) :haha:
More purple paint....
Looks great
Colour looks way off, I am assuming it's true in person though.
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on March 01, 2019, 07:24:49 PM
Colour looks way off, I am assuming it's true in person though.
Yea I agree...I didn't take these pictures....The colour looks real nice in person... :alan2cents:
Ah: That's what I figured, colours come out wrong on the computer screen a lot. Car looks good, can't wait to see it assembled.
More
Beautiful! Somebody is gonna have a sweet ride.
Some new boots....personally I would have went with E60's but the owner wanted some more meat ! :stayinlane: So F60's it is ! :twothumbsup:
:inlove:
All purple again :banana:
Looking good!!
Well if that don't make your heart feel warm and fuzzy nothing will... that is some sweet thing right there!
:dunno:
Ha, ha: Classier ride back. New Ram, aluminum wheels on the trailer, fresh FC7.
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on April 08, 2019, 07:16:27 PM
Ha, ha: Classier ride back. New Ram, aluminum wheels on the trailer, fresh FC7.
it's not all upgrades though. The grass looks dead, there is a serious lack of leaves on the trees in the background.
Seriously nice ride
@ErikR (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/erikr_515) and it looks like Alan will not disappoint.
:vipermanhiding:
Thanks for keeping us updated on your projects, you do very nice work Alan.
It was nice meeting you and Eric at Carlisle....... was my first time attending that event and I really enjoyed it.
Manny
:dunno:
:dunno:
Looking Great Alan an Eric!!
Will it be at Carlisle?
Quote from: anlauto on March 27, 2019, 12:43:45 PM
Some new boots....personally I would have went with E60's but the owner wanted some more meat ! :stayinlane: So F60's it is ! :twothumbsup:
Alan I am calling foul!!!
You ran "L's" on the back of Barrelcuda!
I don't care what the cars came with I will run nothing but G's on the back of my Cuda!
Love the look of them.
:haha: :haha: That was "Day Two" it also had air shocks :burnout:
Pretty good first week....
Wow. Coming along great. :cheers:
Amazing work :worship:
Getting there :drooling:
:twothumbsup: Your car looks awesome. Thanks Alan for the great pics, they create lots of excitement for everyone especially me. I can see even more excitement in my future.
Very Nice Cuda.
Quote from: Topcat on April 30, 2019, 07:05:57 PM
Very Nice Cuda.
It's a Barracuda :haha: (inside joke for the owner and I )
Lots of time consuming stuff that doesn't make too big of a difference..All the side glass installed, new power top motor/hoses/cylinders installed bleed and working great...highly recommended :twothumbsup:
Oh man, that's FANTASTIC!! :Thud: :banana: :banana:
Very nice :twothumbsup: Can you please tell what numbers are on the rear seat belt bolts. I know the reference material here says 1970 All Rear (+ front shoulder) are C11. My car has 2 C11's and 2 C13's.
Quote from: Jay Bee on May 02, 2019, 01:07:38 PM
Very nice :twothumbsup: Can you please tell what numbers are on the rear seat belt bolts. I know the reference material here says 1970 All Rear (+ front shoulder) are C11. My car has 2 C11's and 2 C13's.
I don't have the original bolts, I got all the seat belts including the bolts from Bill Edwards....This car wasn't the best example of originality when I got it :haha:
While not up to todays art of restoration, it truly amazes me how auto makers at the time could use raw materials with design and tools to make these beautiful machines! Unfortunate that the laborers were not well paid at the time, but who was!
Quote from: challengermaniac on May 02, 2019, 02:54:33 PM
Unfortunate that the laborers were not well paid at the time, but who was!
For the time they were pretty well paid with very good benefits...
Yup: They just didn't care is all. They needed a good wage to pay for the booze and dope they used on the line.
Quote from: anlauto on May 02, 2019, 12:44:13 PM
Lots of time consuming stuff that doesn't make too big of a difference..All the side glass installed, new power top motor/hoses/cylinders installed bleed and working great...highly recommended :twothumbsup:
NOS top motor, rebuilt original or something else?
Quote from: Cuda_mark on May 03, 2019, 06:29:12 AM
NOS top motor, rebuilt original or something else?
Something else.....Everything is brand new and very affordable if you ask me :twothumbsup: https://www.hydroe.com/product-result/?pfresults=true&year=1970&makemodel=Plymouth%20Barracuda
I have 2 date coded originals for my car and I'm trying to decide if it's really worth it to restore them for a clone car. Tough to beat $230.00 for one that looks exactly like an original.
The last convertible I did....I sold the original motor/hoses/cylinders to a guy for $500 CDN :o ....and they were leaking....Original parts have a value for sure, but I would never bother using them. These replacements are pretty dead on and work effortlessly.
I'm sure
@ErikR (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/erikr_515) will sell his original stuff if anybody's interested although one of his hoses is cracked and leaking as well. :dunno:
My upholstery guy prefers to install the convertible roofs at his shop so he can take his time, so off it goes...
P.S. The front end is cranked down tight on the trailer that's why it looks so low :alan2cents:
I like the look of the front cranked way down :D
Quote from: Cuda_mark on May 03, 2019, 07:27:17 AM
I have 2 date coded originals for my car and I'm trying to decide if it's really worth it to restore them for a clone car. Tough to beat $230.00 for one that looks exactly like an original.
Send your original one to Stephan for restoration.
That looks awesome!! Nice job as usual . . . :worship:
Looking great Erik & Alan! Can't wait to see this baby at Carlisle! Good call on the steel wheels :cheers:
...well almost, still needs a front end alignment and a few mechanical things checked out...
Drove it out in the sun today under it's own power for the first time in how many years
@ErikR (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/erikr_515) ?
Very, very nice!!! :clapping:
Quote from: ErikR on June 01, 2019, 07:31:48 AM
I think it must have been 10 years ago that I first contacted you about getting in done.... would have made that happen sooner in retrospect!
I first email, which I still have, is dated March 16th 2005 :o So it's been over 14 years :handshake:
That looks awesome Eric........Alan sure does beautiful work!
Wow, what an amazing transformation....beautiful car!!!! :wowzers:
Alan, you do special work man :worship:. :clapping:
I have to say, to do ALL that work you do on the cars, including hauling them here and there (to get the convertible top done, etc.) after they've been freshly painted would absolutely TERRIFY me! I would be so nervous about accidently scratching something...etc.
Do you generally keep sections of the cars you're maybe not working on covered with something while you work on certain other areas?
In any event, well done sir, I always enjoy your build threads.
I never like the dog dish look, but on this car it looks awesome. White interior, my goodness this is a beauty. Hoping you have a lot of years of enjoyment out of this one.
The stance of that car is Bang-on.
Another great restoration by Alan!
I went to the first page of this thread to see the beginning again now that the end has arrived. Another great job Alan . . .
:worship:
:ohyeah: Waiting Carlisle show.
A nudder one gone...getting pretty empty around here !
Looks great!!! :ohyeah: :ohyeah:
DAMN those underside pics are amazing. :rubeyes: GEEZ... I need more money... :haha:
What a great feeling for everyone involved. Looks outstanding!
I just want everybody here (in the world) to know that @ErikR (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/erikr_515) is VERY upset with his car, and I am certainly NOT the expert that I apparently tell everybody that I am...The car is a total disappointment to Erik and everybody else that has view the car.
Erik has had several experts agree that the metal/paint and body work are total crap and unacceptable even for in a daily driver. I don't understand the concept of nice paint, because when it left here I thought it looked pretty nice. I understand now that the experts have found shrinkage happening and some "checking" showing up, terrible gaps, waviness and even dents. So obviously my idea of a nice driver quality paint is wrong. I've posted dozens of pictures and reviewed every one, but the pictures I guess don't tell the story.
From the moment it rolled off the truck and the belt molding was popping off the clips, to a laundry list of issues with the car from running poorly to electrical items not working. However, it's my understanding that the car drives nice and that it made the Carlisle trip effortlessly. The car has over 1000 miles on it already in the last month, but now the problems are mounting, from lights not working to brakes fading and everything in between.
I've really failed on this one, my abilities certainly did not meet the customer's expectations. I've offered for him to bring the car back so I could address all the items, but I can't be trusted...I'm just a fraud, if I can't do it right the first time, certainly don't get a second chance to make it right.
Thankfully the car has been moved to Mike Ross's BE&A shop in Ohio to get everything sorted out. Mike and his experts will determine just EVERYTHING that is wrong with the car and fix it so Erik can at least live with the piece of crap that I delivered to him.
I guess our lawyers will have to determine who's going to pay to bring the car up to snuff so Erik will be happy.
So my advice to everyone:
Don't ever think I'm an expert at restoration. I have my bad days too.
Make sure the company you choose can meet your expectations. My abilities are very low, and nowhere come close to meeting Erik's expectations unfortunately.
I don't ever search people out begging them to let me restore their car....people come to me, people want me to turn out their perfect dream car...I in turn, do the best work I know how, but sometimes that work doesn't please the customer. Unfortunately Erik is one of those very disappointed customers....I'm sorry.
Well I have never seen what kind of body and paint work your shop put's out in person (just lot's of pictures posted here) so I cant and wont comment on what you said about it but I can tell you from a person who expects the best quality when I pay good money and put my trust in someone else to do my paint and body work and those expectations aren't met its very disappointing, my Black Pro touring Duster had several issues that needed addressed more than once and even though I tried to make the rest of the car the best it could be it crushed me to have sub-caliber body work under the shiny paint. I am still friends with that painter and would have him do paint work for me again on my daily driver or to do some small repair work if needed but never, never again on a Top level Restoration for me, he was so proud of his work and bragged about all the cars he's restored but missed the fact that it wasn't top level.
As you know my car is currently at B/E& A and I visit Mike every few weeks to see my car and all I can say is I'm very impressed to see him and his crew perform their Magic.... not only on my car but the others that are in the shop...the man is a perfectionist and it shows in his work so I'm sure Eric's car will get straightened out and if the B5 Blue AAR " Dream Restoration" goes there it will be top notch as well when done.
I hope tomorrow's a better day for you.
"Driver quality" is a murky area. I didn't think BE/A did 'driver quality" and I believe that was what was requested of Alan.
If the owner wanted BE/A quality why didn't he go there for the job originally $$$?
I haven't seen the car in person, was not privy to what was said and therefore pass no judgement.
There are 3 (perhaps in this case 4) sides to every story.
I don't think I could ever do this kind of work for money. I've had lots of offers but I know it's only a matter of time before I'd fail to meet someone's expectations. With money involved, lawsuits are sure to follow. I've even lost friendships after providing free labor trying to polish turds that could not be polished. So I've learned to offer advice instead and only offer free labor to my closest friends who recognize I am just a novice and my help is only worth as much as they are paying me.
Everyone defines levels of quality differently. I guess it doesn't help that there are shows highlighting half million dollar SEMA quality cars. That probably becomes the standard of acceptable for many people. Not sure what sort of problems are really there on this car and how much of it is your body mans blame, if anything. I know sometimes customers make choices on parts, techniques or materials (against a businesses advice) to save a little money or speed the job along only to get pissed at the builder later when the gamble didn't pay off. Not sure of exactly what went down here but I hope folks realize there are oftentimes a lot of details in conflicts that never become public so better not to judge a situation unless you are sure you have all the facts.
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on August 04, 2019, 02:02:30 PM
"Driver quality" is a murky area. I didn't think BE/A did 'driver quality" and I believe that was what was requested of Alan.
If the owner wanted BE/A quality why didn't he go there for the job originally $$$?
I haven't seen the car in person, was not privy to what was said and therefore pass no judgement.
There are 3 (perhaps in this case 4) sides to every story.
I don't know how much money was spent on the car but the fact that I'm currently going through a top quality restoration I do have a pretty good idea what it takes to restore a car to this level and I guarantee nobody spends that kind of money and says I just want a "Driver Quality" paint job. You don't paint the bottom, detail the suspension, ect....and then leave bad body gaps or block out the car to make it laser straight before paint. It sounds like the body shop failed Alan on this one but it should have been thoroughly inspected before it left the body shop to make sure it was a quality product. I'm going back to Mikes in a few weeks maybe I'll get to see it in person.
Went to look at Eriks car last week. I am not an expert but you don't have to be. The paint was not acceptable. Alan should not have accepted the car from the shop. I'm surprised Alan who has a very good eye didn't notice what looked like crows feet impressions in the clear or the burn though the clear.
I'm sorry to hear about the issues. I will give you credit for sharing that a customer was unhappy with your work and you are upset that you apparently didn't meet his expectations.
I've posted that I had disappointing results on my T/A from a experienced higher end Mopar shop, and the owners response was to get mad at me that I'd posted online about it, even though I never have posted the name of his shop (because people will figure it out, or PM me he said). He tried to blame me for some of the issues, and even though he finally admitted there was no excuse for many of the issues, he never offered to do any work, any help whatsover, or reimbursement for thousands of dollars of work I had another shop do to fix the mistakes.
So your response to this seems better for sure.
Hopefully you and Erik can come up with something that will satisfy you both.
Quote from: AH1S on August 04, 2019, 03:31:03 PM
Went to look at Eriks car last week. I am not an expert but you don't have to be. The paint was not acceptable. Alan should not have accepted the car from the shop. I'm surprised Alan who has a very good eye didn't notice what looked like crows feet impressions in the clear or the burn though the clear.
Thank you for chiming in. I'm not sure who you are or if we've met, but I'm very thankful that you've actually seen the car and can offer your opinion.
I think you've kinda proved my point that it comes down to personal opinion. I'm not an expert either, if I thought there was something terribly wrong with the quality of the paint then I wouldn't have passed it on to Erik. When I picked up the car from the body shop, during the weeks I spent assembling the car, and even the times I spent cleaning and detailing the car, I never saw any of the issues that the experts have now pointed out. I've had friends look at the car and thought it looked really good, the car went on to win an award at Carlisle voted by many people that viewed the car ??? Erik himself told me during his first phone call to me that he thought the paint looked good for what he paid??
If I thought for a minute there was issues with the body and paint, then why would I give the same body shop the third car ? If I thought for a minute that Erik's car "looked like shit" and was "totally unacceptable" why would I give out his name and number for a reference to the owner of the blue AAR ? It's like business suicide, these cars I turn out are my business card...they speak for themselves. Was this the BEST paint job I've had done, probably not, but it wasn't the most expensive either.
It was my impression from the beginning that Erik wanted a nice driver quality car that looked good and he could drive the wheels off of it. That's what I delivered, but I now understand that his idea, or his expectations, were way different then mine, and it all boils down to personal opinion :alan2cents:
This situation really does weigh heavy on me. In the past I've restored dozens of cars for people from all over, and with the exception of this one car, generally I've had nothing but happy customers.
I've yet to see current pictures of the experts issues with the paint quality, however if there is "crows feet" or other issues coming out now that weren't there when I had the car, then certainly I would want the car back here so that I can take it back to the body shop and have it fixed correctly. I offered to Erik to bring the car back and that I would address all the issues and have a look at the paint. Other then that, I'm not sure what more I could offer :dunno:
Paint is a tricky thing to different guys, I had my car painted to my painters driver quality level and everyone thought it was gorgeous but the car being my own I noticed all the imperfections slowly but nobody else ever noticed these things. My painter will not put "show paint on any diver as he says the cost is not worth it he says show paint is for trailer queens as you don't want the stone chips etc.
I can tell you from many experiences of my own is that there are a certain number of folks who will pay X and expect Y result. One thing that probably should have happened is for Erik to actually fly up to Canada to take possession of the Cuda. If he had done that then he could have seen the car firsthand and corrected any issues he may have found.
I for one would have never accepted a car without seeing it first.
Beautiful! White goes with purple perfectly in my opinion!
Thanks Ben :drinkingbud:
As far as some minor paint shrinkage after a new paint job, that is 100% normal. Its usually only obvious on wet sanded and buffed paint jobs. Restoration shops know this will happen so they apply a few extra coats of clear so the car can be rebuffed to make it perfect again. :alan2cents:
This is why I LOVE THIS BUSINESS! I find flaws in my own work, I find flaws in brand new cars. I have had people want me to judge other shops work, when they should be complaining to them not me. I have had people want something fixed, made serviceable, limited funds, and were happy with the job, THEN others would criticize the job because it wasn't a SHOW type of job. I have fixed new cars and the customer would come back complaining about something that was no ware near the repair area. :headbang: No one is god, we are human. everyone is so fast to judge, and some things don't show up right away. :alan2cents:
I just looked at this car in the earlier posts. I see that the whole car was pretty well rotted and fitted with a complete set of AMD exterior panels. From experience I know that high end restoration shops in Ontario will charge in the area of $50,000 to $70,000cdn just to make an AMD body laser straight with perfect gaps. This $ amount is for dialing in and painting the exterior of the car only and does not include any metal work [except for perfecting the body gaps]! I believe Al's paint jobs cost significantly less $$.
I have been reading Al's posts for years and he never claims to be a high end resto shop. My understanding from Al's posts as that he puts out really nice detailed drivers [not show cars] at a reasonable price.
The shop I'm using is right down the street from where I work so I've been able to see the progress at every step. I think that's important when you are having a car done. The guy doing my car has turned other cars away because they wanted driver quality...he didn't want to put his name on something like that. It's not worth it to him.
If you learn anything from this Alan it should be that there are enough of these cars out there where you don't have to risk it by taking on jobs that have a small budget but large expectations. People don't understand that the way these cars look amazing is all of the hard work and labor hours spent before the first spray of primer is even done.
If it was a driver quality paint job and that was the agreement, the people nit picking it should try nit picking it while the car is driving past them at 60MPH. I bet it looks amazing at that speed.
Alan did my car and I got to look at the red sunroof Challenger. I also have personally checked out the purple cuda. Comparing the 3 Erik had every right to be unhappy. You have to understand that you are trusting Alan to lookout for your interest. In my opinion Alan should not have accepted the car from the paint shop.
If that is true then Alan should be given the opportunity to take it back to the body shop to make it right. Stuff happens no matter how careful you are but you have to be given the opportunity to make it right.
Having a fourth party (who has repeatedly shown he dislikes Alan) step in to "fix" the problem just makes it all murkier.
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on August 05, 2019, 08:03:00 AM
If that is true then Alan should be given the opportunity to take it back to the body shop to make it right. Stuff happens no matter how careful you are but you have to be given the opportunity to make it right.
Having a fourth party (who has repeatedly shown he dislikes Alan) step in to "fix" the problem just makes it all murkier.
I agree 100% with every part of that statement. The easiest thing in the world is to pick somebody else's work. I think it's total bullshit Alan is not allowed to try and correct the owners complaints. As far as things acting up on after a fresh build. "HELLO" I would be amazed if things didn't screw up because anyone who has ever built a car knows it's going happen. It takes time to fully sort a full build out.
What is the difference between Driver quality paint and Show quality paint?Imo a Show quality paint job is between 10k and as high as 20k more then Driver quality.I could be wrong.
Quote from: AH1S on August 05, 2019, 07:42:24 AM
Alan did my car and I got to look at the red sunroof Challenger. I also have personally checked out the purple cuda. Comparing the 3 Erik had every right to be unhappy. You have to understand that you are trusting Alan to lookout for your interest. In my opinion Alan should not have accepted the car from the paint shop.
I don't think one can make this assumption. I had Alan restore my car. Understanding quality of the paint and body work is subjective and is also impacted by budget - you would also need to factor in budget. For example, I don't think you can look at my car and expect all of Alan's car to have the same quality if there was a different budget. We spent a fair amount of time talking about budget as the work was being done. I asked that corners not be cut when doing my car. The result - at a judged car show yesterday each of the judges said I had the nicest black paint job at the event. And yes I did take home Best in Show. I suppose I could complain about the cost but i am thrilled with the finished product.
Alan has stood up and offered to address the issues. But it sounds like there is someone fanning the flames here.
If you were charged north of 100K, what would you expect in a restoration?
I've never met you but I admire your work and value your input to this forum. It doesn't sit right with me that he was good with the car when delivered, drove it/enjoyed it and now it's unacceptable? And then he doesn't let you remedy the situation and sends it to another shop?
Hang in there, if I had the money I'd still be contacting you about building me a car...
Quote from: kdcarman on August 05, 2019, 10:00:37 AM
I don't think one can make this assumption. I had Alan restore my car. Understanding quality of the paint and body work is subjective and is also impacted by budget - you would also need to factor in budget. For example, I don't think you can look at my car and expect all of Alan's car to have the same quality if there was a different budget. We spent a fair amount of time talking about budget as the work was being done. I asked that corners not be cut when doing my car. The result - at a judged car show yesterday each of the judges said I had the nicest black paint job at the event. And yes I did take home Best in Show. I suppose I could complain about the cost but i am thrilled with the finished product.
Alan has stood up and offered to address the issues. But it sounds like there is someone fanning the flames here.
Thanks Ken, your car is a BEAUTY ! :drooling:
I'm not assuming anything. I'm basing it on what I have personally seen. I will have to assume that you worked off menu with Alan for your car I did not. I did ask Erik what He paid Alan for paint and it was about what I paid.
Quote from: anlauto on August 04, 2019, 05:29:23 PM
Quote from: AH1S on August 04, 2019, 03:31:03 PM
Went to look at Eriks car last week. I am not an expert but you don't have to be. The paint was not acceptable. Alan should not have accepted the car from the shop. I'm surprised Alan who has a very good eye didn't notice what looked like crows feet impressions in the clear or the burn though the clear.
This situation really does weigh heavy on me. In the past I've restored dozens of cars for people from all over, and with the exception of this one car, generally I've had nothing but happy customers.
That is simply not true Alan, I was also unhappy with your complete restoration my car.
First off, I don't believe it was fair sticking me with extra costs for having to repair and replace parts on my engine after your engine shop's fresh rebuild of the engine had failed while you were restoring my car and still had it. The motor is still not right btw.
The paint job on my car is also unacceptable and it was disappointing to see the body lines do not match up between the doors and the fenders, and by quite a lot actually. I have to ask- why you would paint the car until you had them lined up properly? Aside from some minor runs in the paint, even more frustrating was finding the amount of dirt and dust in my paint job. I find it hard to believe you could not notice these flaws or this amount of dust bunnies passes your quality control.
Sure, I understand I did not pay for a 'sema' car show quality paint job but the cost of your body work and paint was expensive in my views and the dust bunnies could have been avoided. I had professionals look at polishing them out but unfortunately many of them are too large for a cut and polish and the car would need to be clear coated again. As you also know, the paint on the front valence was chipped, damaged and cracked. Surprisingly, you claimed that you noticed the damage when you picked it up from the body shop but decided to install it anyways. Why wouldn't you have had them simply repaint the panel, especially since they had damaged it? Instead you globbed the cracks up with nail polish...Seriously? How is that acceptable to anyone?
Alan, I can understand your missing some details, a few mechanical issues and minor flaws in your complete restoration which I have found but the body and paint issues are kind of big ones and something you really should take responsibility for. In my opinion you had to have noticed the fenders didn't line up well, the dirt in the clear coat and the damaged front valence- obviously- since you tried fixing it up with nail polish. In my opinion you should take my car back, make it right, send it back and stand behind your work. Do the right thing for ErikR too and get a better handle on your body and paint quality control.
A friend of mine builds race engines as a side business for play money. He told me years ago that the secret to having a successful business like that one is to pick your customers rather than the other way around. He said he learned early on to spot people who would never be happy no matter what and when he tried to make them happy, it always cost him in the end. Now he is very selective on who he will build an engine for and for 20 plus years he hasn't had any more issues like what you are dealing with.
Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on August 05, 2019, 10:48:16 AM
A friend of mine builds race engines as a side business for play money. He told me years ago that the secret to having a successful business like that one is to pick your customers rather than the other way around. He said he learned early on to spot people who would never be happy no matter what and when he tried to make them happy, it always cost him in the end. Now he is very selective on who he will build an engine for and for 20 plus years he hasn't had any more issues like what you are dealing with.
Very sound advice. That's exactly how I operate with what little I do at home.
I think the point people are missing here, is the fact that in my opinion when the car left here, it looked good.
AH1S I assume Kevin from NY ?
This is the first I've heard from you since the day you got your car back when the shifter fell out. :looney: I'm very thankful for your opinion of Erik's car, I unfortunately have not seen the paint issues or pictures of the paint issues that the experts have found. You know my work and you say this is not of the same caliber, so I guess you're happy with your car ?
SlapShot ...I'm guessing Jim ? When a customer supplies engine parts and those direct engine parts fail, I really don't think I should be on the hook for that. I lost lots of money on that car trying to make the engine right for you. I'm sorry you're still having issues. I remember asking you to remove the valance and send it back, you refused, when you mentioned a crack in the paint I suggested clear nail polish to seal up the crack. This happened four years ago, how does it look today ?
So I've very sorry I do stand corrected....that's two unhappy customers out of the 25 or so cars I've done in the last ten years. Anybody else ? :grouphug:
Again, I've asked for pictures of the paint issues and offered to address the paint issues with the body shop here, but apparently that's not going to happen. :dunno:
Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on August 05, 2019, 10:48:16 AM
A friend of mine builds race engines as a side business for play money. He told me years ago that the secret to having a successful business like that one is to pick your customers rather than the other way around. He said he learned early on to spot people who would never be happy no matter what and when he tried to make them happy, it always cost him in the end. Now he is very selective on who he will build an engine for and for 20 plus years he hasn't had any more issues like what you are dealing with.
Yes, no truer words have been spoken :worship:
Alan, Bob Karakashian came up with which parts to use for the engine rebuild which you had ordered. When the engine failed, Bob tried to help troubleshoot by taking the time to personally speak with both you and your engine builder. After speaking with Bob afterwards, let's just say Bob did not have confidence in either of you, and he felt you had kind of insulted him. Regardless, after the extra costs I had incurred it still is not right.
I received the car with the valence already globbed with nail polish, you had patched it up- not me. I don't recall you offering me anything to deal with any of the body and paint issues other than suggesting I could put more nail polish on the valence. Again, why would you accept the damaged panel from the paint shop and install it on my car in the first place? Are you offering to correct the body and paint issues? The dust in the paint could have been avoided and I'm not sure why you would let the poor fender-door body line alignment slide.. I have only put about 40 miles on the car since I got it back.
Jim your car goes on record of being one of my favorite restorations of all time. :drooling: Short version of the engine story, YOU supplied stamped steel rockers which failed in the first hours of operation. My engine builder then installed Harlem-Sharp roller rockers which you expected to get for free....wasn't going to happen. Engine issues aside, I was extremely proud of the finished I car I sent you.
It's been four years, our story is over....You're unhappy, that's unfortunate.
It again boils down to level of expectations vs my abilities. :alan2cents:
Some customers will never be "happy" no matter what you do. I am assuming this is Eriks car at one point?
https://forum.e-bodies.org/your-restoration-project-roseville-moparts/10/a-g-a-r-1970-barracuda-convertible-important-update/1935/30
I have no skin in the game re Alan, but have been getting a few cars restored over the years. One thing I have learned is that you need to understand where a person's skills lie and be comfortable with that. The other thing is you need to be close to your builder and regularly visit the car - it really is the only way to make sure you are happy and to resolve any issues before they get bigger. The third is there will always be issues but if both parties work together these can usually be dealt with amicably.
I once bought a restored car that looked awesome and even drove great. It was only a week or so after I bought it that the issues started to reveal themselves, so I can understand one would miss things by just looking at it on day one - perhaps the excitement got the better of me and I didn't realize the issues as one tend to be super optimistic with a new purchase, especially with a rare car with great paint and panels. I spent a lot of money and time in getting them resolved. I ended up with a great car but it took a lot of money. Was it worth it, probably not as I didn't get to enjoy the car the first few years as I should have. But, I did learn from it. I still have the car and would probably never sell it since I know what I have and have invested the time to get it right.
On the other hand I also had a car that was terrible to start off with and the restorer did a great job, although it took two years. It is a 1000 miles away from me so wasn't easy to get to see the car as much as I wanted to. I did get frustrated given the time it took and expected a much quicker turn around, but the guy is meticulous and his body work superb so I gave hime a break even though he didn't meet my expectations on the timing. Given the distance I probably would not use him again unless I just want body work as few around here does it better.
I also once had a shop owner tell me he can work on motors but would really get a specialist to do it. It was the right call and I'm sure he could have taken my money instead.
You live and learn and every build is a bit different.
I hope all the parties can find an amicable resolution and move on.
Alan, I don't believe that's accurate but I can add that Mancini also had the same thoughts as Bob Karakashian did regarding your engine building issues, so I have to side with the knowledge of Bob Karakashian and Mancini over your engine building experience.
It is not unreasonable to be disappointed with finding runs, dust bunnies, a damaged panel and a body line that does not line up well. You had the ability to realize the body line was not great before it was painted, the ability to not accept a freshly painted panel that was damaged before you installed it and you had the ability to have a good look at the car and realize, wow- that is a lot of dirt in the paint job, before you shipped it to me. I doubt letting these types of paint and body issues pass muster would meet most expectations. What is unfortunate is that you did not stand behind your work or attempt to resolve the body and paint issues with my car. That just ain't right. I received the car from you December 19, 2015 and have put on about 40 miles- you still have the ability to take the opportunity and make things right. I would venture to guess you did not take the opportunity to make things right with Erik's car either since it sounds like lawyers are now involved.
Quote from: slapshot on August 05, 2019, 02:41:28 PM
Alan, I don't believe that's accurate but I can add that Mancini also had the same thoughts as Bob Karakashian did regarding your engine building issues, so I have to side with the knowledge of Bob Karakashian and Mancini over your engine building experience.
It is not unreasonable to be disappointed with finding runs, dust bunnies, a damaged panel and a body line that does not line up well. You had the ability to realize the body line was not great before it was painted, the ability to not accept a freshly painted panel that was damaged before you installed it and you had the ability to have a good look at the car and realize, wow- that is a lot of dirt in the paint job, before you shipped it to me. I doubt letting these types of paint and body issues pass muster would meet most expectations. What is unfortunate is that you did not stand behind your work or attempt to resolve the body and paint issues with my car. That just ain't right. I received the car from you December 19, 2015 and have put on about 40 miles- you still have the ability to take the opportunity and make things right. I would venture to guess you did not take the opportunity to make things right with Erik's car either since it sounds like lawyers are now involved.
Aside from the bodylines being a mile off, terrible body gaps and the fender dog leg not worked so the gills lay flat, it's perfect. :headbang:
"It is not unreasonable to be disappointed with finding runs, dust bunnies, a damaged panel and a body line that does not line up well."
What's a dust bunny? :notsure:
I have been doing business with Alan for the last few years, he has restored parts for me on several of my Cuda's. Every time I pick-up or drop off a part I am amazed at the work in progress. I have restored many cars in the past and the biggest problem I found is the paint and body work, no body man wants to take responsibility. One question that comes to mind is did the client come see the car before it was released? If he didn't, why not? after spending that much money why not give it a once over or hire an appraiser to go over the car. I have purchased many cars from the US and have had local appraisers look over the car before I purchase them. Just my thoughts.
Quote from: Shane Kelley on August 06, 2019, 05:36:37 AM
"It is not unreasonable to be disappointed with finding runs, dust bunnies, a damaged panel and a body line that does not line up well."
What's a dust bunny? :notsure:
Dirt and dust particles stuck in the paint...
Yes, what are dust bunny's? :alan2cents: I have a procedure I use, I ground the vehicle with a chain while i spray it. Your creating static electricity in the paint process. then I wet sand all the way down to 5,000 grit with a finishing sander. rubbing compound on wool pad, over kill as they say one could just machine glaze with foam pad. then I do the foam pad thing. wash it and hand glaze. some say it's better to do it the next day, but I like to assemble first then buff, just in case I put a light scratch in it during assembly.
I'm going to make one final comment about this blue car and then I'm going to move on. I understand the owner is unhappy but we went through all of this four years ago and nothing has changed. It boils down to having champagne expectations on a beer budget.
The owner was charged by me a total of $12,500 CDN including the 13% provincial sales tax, and including my 10% out-sourced labour fee.
So just to put that into perspective for you American guys, that's the equivalent of approximately $9600.00 USD for the complete body and paint work, top to bottom, inside and out. If you remove the taxes and my cut, that's a $7600 USD paint job.
If you think you can get welded to perfection gaps, a finish that is cut and buffed to perfection for this kind of price then I'm very sorry, but you will disappointed. :alan2cents:
Quote from: anlauto on August 06, 2019, 07:00:37 AM
I'm going to make one final comment about this blue car and then I'm going to move on. I understand the owner is unhappy but we went through all of this four years ago and nothing has changed. It boils down to having champagne expectations on a beer budget.
The owner was charged by me a total of $12,500 CDN including the 13% provincial sales tax, and including my 10% out-sourced labour fee.
So just to put that into perspective for you American guys, that's the equivalent of approximately $9600.00 USD for the complete body and paint work, top to bottom, inside and out. If you remove the taxes and my cut, that's a $7600 USD paint job.
If you think you can get welded to perfection gaps, a finish that is cut and buffed to perfection for this kind of price then I'm very sorry, but you will disappointed. :alan2cents:
Holy crap!!! For that kind of money I would be thrilled to have a car that looks as good as that does. I've probably spent more than that with the post-paint wet sand on one side of my car. How are you supposed to get gaps and panel alignment perfect on that kind of budget? Magic?
Quote from: anlauto on August 06, 2019, 07:00:37 AM
So just to put that into perspective for you American guys, that's the equivalent of approximately $9600.00 USD for the complete body and paint work, top to bottom, inside and out. If you remove the taxes and my cut, that's a $7600 USD paint job.
If you think you can get welded to perfection gaps, a finish that is cut and buffed to perfection for this kind of price then I'm very sorry, but you will disappointed. :alan2cents:
Honestly if you quoted me this price I would be very suspicious of the quality of work I was going to get. There is a line between a fair price and too low.
I agree with you, it's the customers fault for giving the work to an ebody "expert" that doesn't know any better that the paint/metal and body work is way under acceptable. As a high end restorer of all my own cars, let the customer know the level of quality you're selling, tell the customer up front so they can make the decision if that's what they want, then I get it. I have no problem with Alan and the detail work he does on parts, he's my $25 hour guy I trained and watch over so the work is done correctly. As I've said before, all the money in a restoration is the talent to bump the metal around to insure body gaps and body lines and the entire body is straight, not to mention the paint and finish work. There's not a reproduction panel on the planet you can just bolt on a car and paint without moving lines around and a bunch of long blocking to get it to the level of a customer paying a bile of money for. If you're selling a "100% restoration" and not doing to do the "money" work, at least let the customer know up front so they can make that decision. If I have to "babysit" any job that I'm paying for to a "so called expert", they're not getting the business. You have the "average Joe" with a car they want restored that knows nothing about the process looking for a company that promotes a "100% restoration", why should they have to inspect the work? It's no secret Alan has a real problem with me, only because of the "snake oil" he's selling to the average guy that doesn't know better that gets me. No, this is not a self promotion, I do all our work and don't need the money, it's my way or the highway. If you can't afford the talent it takes to do it right, I'm not your guy.
Obviously, not everyone wants or can afford a high-end 1000-point perfect restoration, as a matter of fact, I'd say it's the case for most people on this forum... It's probably very nice to have patrons with unlimited budget funding a restorer's obsession to details...
THere is a place for affordable, driver-quality work with an attention to details specific to the brand that Alan provides. Of course, the finished product will not compete with the ''other'' shop's show poodles at judged shows, but it will be done much quicker and cheaper, and will satisfy 95% of people with correct expectations and budget. I don't think it's fair to keep hammering on the fact that the jobs were not perfect, if the budget was not there for it.
Ben
Quote from: HEMICUDA on August 06, 2019, 07:54:47 AM
I agree with you, it's the customers fault for giving the work to an ebody "expert" that doesn't know any better that the paint/metal and body work is way under acceptable. As a high end restorer of all my own cars, let the customer know the level of quality you're selling, tell the customer up front so they can make the decision if that's what they want, then I get it. I have no problem with Alan and the detail work he does on parts, he's my $25 hour guy I trained and watch over so the work is done correctly. As I've said before, all the money in a restoration is the talent to bump the metal around to insure body gaps and body lines and the entire body is straight, not to mention the paint and finish work. There's not a reproduction panel on the planet you can just bolt on a car and paint without moving lines around and a bunch of long blocking to get it to the level of a customer paying a bile of money for. If you're selling a "100% restoration" and not doing to do the "money" work, at least let the customer know up front so they can make that decision. If I have to "babysit" any job that I'm paying for to a "so called expert", they're not getting the business. You have the "average Joe" with a car they want restored that knows nothing about the process looking for a company that promotes a "100% restoration", why should they have to inspect the work? It's no secret Alan has a real problem with me, only because of the "snake oil" he's selling to the average guy that doesn't know better that gets me. No, this is not a self promotion, I do all our work and don't need the money, it's my way or the highway. If you can't afford the talent it takes to do it right, I'm not your guy.
I don't care if you are Mark Worman , Dave Kendig or Chip Foose, if I am paying for a restoration or even for just a paint job I am coming over several times to see the progress and if any shop don't like me coming by they don't need my business.
Further more this thread has went far enough. If anyone has a beef with another member email them. If I want negatively I will watch the news
Quote from: Timbbuc2 on August 06, 2019, 08:27:59 AM
Quote from: HEMICUDA on August 06, 2019, 07:54:47 AM
I agree with you, it's the customers fault for giving the work to an ebody "expert" that doesn't know any better that the paint/metal and body work is way under acceptable. As a high end restorer of all my own cars, let the customer know the level of quality you're selling, tell the customer up front so they can make the decision if that's what they want, then I get it. I have no problem with Alan and the detail work he does on parts, he's my $25 hour guy I trained and watch over so the work is done correctly. As I've said before, all the money in a restoration is the talent to bump the metal around to insure body gaps and body lines and the entire body is straight, not to mention the paint and finish work. There's not a reproduction panel on the planet you can just bolt on a car and paint without moving lines around and a bunch of long blocking to get it to the level of a customer paying a bile of money for. If you're selling a "100% restoration" and not doing to do the "money" work, at least let the customer know up front so they can make that decision. If I have to "babysit" any job that I'm paying for to a "so called expert", they're not getting the business. You have the "average Joe" with a car they want restored that knows nothing about the process looking for a company that promotes a "100% restoration", why should they have to inspect the work? It's no secret Alan has a real problem with me, only because of the "snake oil" he's selling to the average guy that doesn't know better that gets me. No, this is not a self promotion, I do all our work and don't need the money, it's my way or the highway. If you can't afford the talent it takes to do it right, I'm not your guy.
I don't care if you are Mark Worman , Dave Kendig or Chip Foose, if I am paying for a restoration or even for just a paint job I am coming over several times to see the progress and if any shop don't like me coming by they don't need my business.
Further more this thread has went far enough. If anyone has a beef with another member email them. If I want negatively I will watch the news
:iagree: Enough already!!!
This thread will be locked soon. Erik has requested he be allowed to respond and since this is his car it's only fair we allow him to tell his side of the story. After that, the discussion between the directly involved parties can be done through emails or PM's.
Erik is also more than welcome to start his own restoration thread about his own car and the work he's doing to it as long as it does not get personal. We all want to help each other and sometimes it's just a matter of finding something nice to say. The few times I've spoke to Erik on the phone I can tell he's a very intelligent guy that shares our passion for these cars. Let's all be part of the solution to help Erik make his car everything he wants it to be through positive support and comments that help him achieve his goals with this project.
@slapshot (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/slapshot_305) has asked I add this:
"I'm going to make one final comment about this blue car and then I'm going to move on. I understand the owner is unhappy but we went through all of this four years ago and nothing has changed. It boils down to having champagne expectations on a beer budget.
The owner was charged by me a total of $12,500 CDN including the 13% provincial sales tax, and including my 10% out-sourced labour fee.
So just to put that into perspective for you American guys, that's the equivalent of approximately $9600.00 USD for the complete body and paint work, top to bottom, inside and out. If you remove the taxes and my cut, that's a $7600 USD paint job.
If you think you can get welded to perfection gaps, a finish that is cut and buffed to perfection for this kind of price then I'm very sorry, but you will disappointed. :alan2cents:"
Alan,
I went through your invoices and the complete costs as I understand them for the body and paint job (excluding any parts) was north of 20k. You didn't include the costs for the metal work, blasting the shell and your additional numerous 'self' paint prep charges. It can be assumed your wording of "complete body and paint work, top to bottom, inside and out" would include these additional costs that you did not consider as typically would be charged by the paint shop when they do the complete job.
"It boils down to having champagne expectations on a beer budget."
That makes no sense Alan since the costs of your restoration ended up costing about 20k more than your quote.
You never mentioned there were any body or paint issues with my car or provided any options for me to consider to rectify those deficiencies. If the fender needed more alignment time to get it right, why wouldn't you tell me? If the paint needed to be cut and polished because of heavy debris in the initial clear coat, why wouldn't you let me know of the issue? If you needed another $40 to make a trip back to the paint shop so they could have repainted the valence they had damaged then why wouldn't you ask?
Again, you never mentioned any of these issues about my car to me and that was wrong.
"I understand the owner is unhappy but we went through all of this four years ago and nothing has changed."
Correct Alan. You have still offered to do absolutely zero about the issues on my car.
My advice to you is that honesty is always the best approach and then let the owner decide what they want to do. Sending pictures of flaws in your restoration and providing whatever options are available to fix the problem is a far better approach than surprising the owner with the flaws after they take delivery of the car. Faster isn't better, unless you are on the drag strip. If you need more time to work bugs out of a car, take the time and make it right and stand behind your work instead of blowing customers off.
I am going to keep my arguments clear and simple since this thread has already stared to go off track with only one side of the story being presented.
When my car arrived, I noticed problems with it immediately, as it was being unloaded from the truck. In the first 2 weeks the list of problems I could identify grew and new problems popped up. I was promised verbally and in writing a 100% restoration and that is not what I got.
Problems happen with newly restored cars and in all facets of life, we all know this. What's important is how one reacts to solve these problems. I've tried to get these problems straight with Alan, first in writing, then in person, and he has repeatedly shrugged off all the issues I've raised and has not stepped up to try and make things right with me. Finally, I took my car elsewhere to get some very basic things fixed that no one with a 'restored' car, at any level, should have to deal with. I gave him a chance to pay for these repairs and told I'll keep my comments about his work off this forum, but as expected he shrugged this off. He then urged me to go online and bash his bad work and as you can see, he posted on this forum with a weak and inaccurate attempt to frame me as a customer who cannot be pleased.
One informative thing to keep in mind is that Alan has never called a customer after he's 'restored' a car for them and asked if they are satisfied with their car. This says a lot about his attitude and approach to business.
An un-provoked tirade on a paying customer in a public forum is clearly unprofessional behavior, but this is what you get when you do business Alan. He claims he never said he is a professional, and he is right, he is not a pro. He's had numerous arguments with all the top-level professionals in the business on the forums over the years, he has no problem pointing out everyone's mistakes, and lacks the insight to identify and acknowledge the glaring deficits in his own restoration workflow. You can't have it both ways Alan, talking like you're a pro and then backtracking from that when problems arise and coping out saying just do driver-quality work.
I hired him to restore my car because I thought he had the knowledge and experience to deliver a 100% restoration. Before I did business with him, I thought he had a good reputation. Lots of cars done, and no one posting about problems but once you dig deeper with his past customer, you quickly find out that there are a lot of issues with past cars and no one wants to step up and speak the truth until now with me and my car.... and just now member slapstick, thanks man!
Now a 100% restoration agreement without a detailed written contract can be debatable but here what I was expecting. 100% of the parts are assembled correctly and carefully. All electrical and mechanical systems are functional, and in addition these systems have been tested and dialed in as part of the troubleshooting.
The contracted restoration person has the expertise to say what is acceptable or not with respect to paint and body work. I did not inspect the final paint in person because I do not have the expertise to evaluate and that's what I thought I was paying for, expert assessment but I did not get it.
All levels of paint jobs right? I was paying for a 17 grand CAD collision shop job, and what I got does not even an acceptable job at that low level. Other guys have seen this first hand and found it completely unacceptable, numerous body and paint glaring problems that will be outlined in a separate post. Alan never discussed higher end options with me and after spending so much on the car I certainly would have gone for a higher quality job. Alan said the paint was acceptable to him looked, good but then he's ignorant to what is acceptable. In fact, in my last phone conversation in with him, he admitted there were paint problems, but then went on to deny it.
You don't expect the restorer to have a childish temper tantrum when you decide to switch from manual to power steering, but this is what you get when you hire Alan. As a customer you will have to take the high road because he has your car and parts and walk him back from his childish tantrum to get back on track. As a paying customer, I expect the contractor to do what I request even if plans change after all I'm paying.
My car arrived with the belt moldings not seated on the clips. Alan also chipped my paint bad trying to put on the passenger side mounding and he did not pre-bend to fit them correctly. The rear trim was not fully seated on the clips either.
You don't expect them to blindly assemble parts but this is what Alan does. He does not get electric switches rebuilt and does not have the expertise or insight to bench test electrics, he just slaps it together and hopes it works, which is absurd if you are paying for a 100% restoration. My car had a lot of electric issues and so did other past customers.
My dash light bar is out, the floor lights don't work properly, the clock doesn't work, the taillights don't work. The brake light stays on because the brakes were never bled properly and then the brake light switch cannot be adjusted until the brakes are properly bled. The gauges were not thoroughly tested so that my tach at the last minute had to be replaced with an aftermarket one that doesn't even match. I was not told about this, just that it would be replaced.
I have a long list of parts I supplied to Alan that were already restored by the top guys in the business and that is why some of my car is top notch, the stuff that has nothing to do with Alan.
Quote from: Cuda Cody on August 06, 2019, 09:51:26 AM
This thread will be locked soon. Erik has requested he be allowed to respond and since this is his car it's only fair we allow him to tell his side of the story. After that, the discussion between the directly involved parties can be done through emails or PM's.
Erik is also more than welcome to start his own restoration thread about his own car and the work he's doing to it as long as it does not get personal. We all want to help each other and sometimes it's just a matter of finding something nice to say. The few times I've spoke to Erik on the phone I can tell he's a very intelligent guy that shares our passion for these cars. Let's all be part of the solution to help Erik make his car everything he wants it to be through positive support and comments that help him achieve his goals with this project.
Very well said Cody! This site is for support to all and bashing will not be allowed so as Cody has indicated, let's stay positive!
:bigthumb: