440 OIL PAN DROP

[moonshine_mike]

Hey Guys,
I am about to embark on something I have never done before. I need to change the stock oil pan on my fully assembled and driving 440-6 Cuda. I want to do this without removing the engine. I recognize that the center link must be moved away first. I have read conflicting posts as to whether or not the engine needs to be lifted and it looks too close for me to call after a simple visual check. The hooker headers installed look like they may make the lift (if lift needed) difficult since they are pretty close to torsion bar collision on lift. So here are the questions:
1) Does the engine need to be lifted or can I just wiggle the pan out below?
2) If the engine needs to be lifted what are the simplest hoist bolt holes I should use to minimize engine part removal? Or should I use a strap on the flywheel as lift?

[pschlosser]

Hey Guys,
I am about to embark on something I have never done before. I need to change the stock oil pan on my fully assembled and driving 440-6 Cuda. I want to do this without removing the engine. I recognize that the center link must be moved away first. I have read conflicting posts as to whether or not the engine needs to be lifted and it looks too close for me to call after a simple visual check. The hooker headers installed look like they may make the lift (if lift needed) difficult since they are pretty close to torsion bar collision on lift. So here are the questions:
1) Does the engine need to be lifted or can I just wiggle the pan out below?
2) If the engine needs to be lifted what are the simplest hoist bolt holes I should use to minimize engine part removal? Or should I use a strap on the flywheel as lift?

I seem to recall doing this before, years ago.  But I didn't have headers.  Remove the center link from the inner tie rod ends and the idler arm. You then can swing the center link away for access.  It's tight, but it can be done.  Lifting the engine 1-2 inches will be a big help, especially if you're using RTV on the pan gasket, as it's so tight, it smears the goop.  Hopefully, the headers won't give you any grief.

[moonshine_mike]

Thanks for the input. Makes sense, so I'll make preparations for slight front engine lift. Remove the engine mount bolts and look for some place to attach hoist left and right anchor bolts without too much impact on parts removal like alternator, distributor, etc
My error in question. Didn't mean flywheel lift, actually meant damper lift for strap type lift possibility.

[cuda hunter]

I would find a couple bolt holes on the front of the motor/heads for the lifting instead of the dampener.  Probably not an issue, but I would think that would put a lot of stress on the seals as well as the rubber inserts in the dampener.
  This is possible but it is not fun.  I've not done this with headers.  That is going to throw a large monkey wrench into your situation for sure.
  Please give us pics of your process for the next person who asks this question.
 

[B5fourspeed]

I removed the oil pan by disconnecting the center link on one end and swing it out of the way.All the pan bolts are accessible.Even the front bolts.It was easier than I thought it was going to be.My headers were not in the way.

[pschlosser]

Good job. 

[RUNCHARGER]

Well done. As I remember the tricky part is if the oil pan has baffles you have to swing the oilpan sideways, avoiding the headers to get away from the oil pickup.

[moonshine_mike]

Just Starting the oil pan swap.
-Raised the car on stands (higher in front).
-Left the jack under K member in case of need during the process.
-Placed the hoist in position (but not bolted to heads) in case engine lift needed during process.
-Unbolted the center link from tie rods and idler arm. This was tougher than I thought but popped right out after using a ball joint separator. Left the center link in position until next time slot to continue.
-Drained oil.
Added some pictures to show where I am. Included is the close proximity of the passenger header to the torsion bar which may be an issue if I have to lift engine.

[pschlosser]

oooh, under hood insulation.  I don't see that too often.

[dodj]

oooh, under hood insulation.  I don't see that too often.

The six pak caught my eye...insulation doesn't do anything for me.

[cuda hunter]

hahahaha.  The custom quilt blankets caught my eye.   hahahaa.

Clean lookin car there!! 

[moonshine_mike]

OK further progress.
-Swung the center link away which was trivial.
-Got out all the oil pan bolts which was trivial except the two front. Pretty sure I could get then with a special short height ratchet, but reinstalling would have been almost impossible. Don't know how others have done this. Can't even get my fingers in there to start the bolts on reentry when I have to reinstall. So I have decided the engine hoist will eventually be needed for those two bolts.
-Removed the engine mount bolts which was trivial.
-Raised the engine one inch and removed the two front oil pan bolts. I used the floor jack for this (not the hoist) since I just wanted to get the bolts out.

Here's where I ran into a pause condition... The oil pan is a 187 stamped which is incorrect for the application. A bigger deal is that I cannot budge the pan off. I can tell there is a windage tray and two gaskets but the pan feels like its rock solid in place. I tried a mallet to the point where I felt damage may occur, tried a little prying with flat head to no effect. Consequently a pause condition.
In your experience are oil pans that tough to dislodge? Or am I being too gentle? I don't want to destroy it.

[pschlosser]

In your experience are oil pans that tough to dislodge? Or am I being too gentle? I don't want to destroy it.

Some may choose to "glue" or seal their gaskets using RTV or something similar.  Others (like the factory) may install the gaskets bare.

You'll have to determine which on your engine.  Take care NOT TO BEND the oil pan lip by prying.  After the screws are removed (double check to make sure) hitting it on the side with a rubber mallet may pop the unglued pan loose.

If it is sealed/glued, use your thinnest putty knife, and tap it inward between the oil pan lip and the block, and work your way around the perimeter as much as possible.  this may loosen to pan enough to be dropped.  Sadly, while the engine is still installed, it may not be possible reach 100% of the perimeter without removing headers, lifting the engine out, etc.  But if you can get most of the perimeter, more than 50%, I would guess 75% is best, hitting it on the side with a mallet may be enough to pop the rest off.

After you've broken the seal as much as you can reach with the putty knife, you can risk bending the oil pan by moving on to prying.  Again, use your thinnest tool possible to work in there.  If you DO bend the oil pan some, limit were you pry, and you can bend it back.

If you're replacing the oil pan with another, and willing to sacrifice the pan, then there are fewer consequence to prying.

[moonshine_mike]

Great info from PSCHLOSSER. Pan was solidly gripping with some sort of adhesive. Took about 60 minutes with a suitable, narrow spatula and worked around as much as I could. almost gave up at one point thinking the pan would never get out without destruction. Finally it started to release. The oil pan then dropped right out without any engine lift. The windage tray is still firmly in place. Next steps are
-remove old gasket and reinstall with new pan.

Secondary Flag:
After checking the idler and pitman arms I discovered that the Pitman arm is numbers matching correct for 1970 Cuda but the idler arm looks completely wrong. I've added a few pictures.

-What is the best aftermarket replacement for the idler arm for 1970 Cuda 440 manual trans, power steering?

[pschlosser]

What is the best aftermarket replacement for the idler arm for 1970 Cuda 440 manual trans, power steering?

I cannot really tell visually if its the correct one or not.  What makes you think it not?  Is there a casting number on it?

To replace, I would recommend MOOG parts, they are really good.  Some consider them the best USA made.

The idler arm is the same for all engines and e-body in 1970, part #2835 834 and equates to Moog K-7041.  You can buy these all over.  Maybe even local parts store

https://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/moog-k7041

Maybe buy one from a source you can return it. Then once you get it, compare visually with the one you get, and send it back, if yours looks correct.  Maybe from like... Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Moog-K7041-Idler-Arm/dp/B000C543Q0