Which lug studs for front drums?

[MoparLeo]

4 wheel drum brakes on mountain driving or driving in the rain are just dangerous. period.
 The brake lining and drums heat up on constant braking. this initially causes the brakes to start to fade ( loose grip). eventually the fluid gets overheated and unless it is fresh, new fluid it will boil.
The air bubbles in the lines compress causing to pedal to drop to the floor. No brakes at all now.
 When the lining gets wet it loses all grip, again, no brakes or uneven braking causing the car to pull to one side or the other.
 Do not do a Frankenstein brake conversion. This is the most important safety system on your car. Not just a simple upgrade.
 Keep the parts all Mopar.
 When you start to cobble a brake system using parts from various makes and models you get a mismatched system and constant brake problem headaches.  There are many links to using factory Mopar parts which makes it much easier to have a compatible system that you can buy parts for from any auto parts store in the future if you need to service the system. Nothing to modify or can't find information on. Just use your Factory Service Manual
Please stay away from rear wheel disc conversions. Just trouble and little to no benefit..

https://www.allpar.com/d3/history/mopar/brakes/disc-main.html

https://www.allpar.com/threads/disc-o-tech-stop-on-a-dime.237038/?post_id=1085245451&nested_view=1&sortby=oldest#post-1085245451

[challenger7070]

Thank you for the brake disc info, that seems fairly similar to what I've seen with GM style upgrades so that looks fairly achievable. It will be on the list for when it's all together and running.

In the meantime I have managed to get a little progress on the front drum. Removed one lug stud by cutting off the swagged edge. Now I have a sample to work from.

This does not match the dorman fully splined: DORMAN 610039 / 98147.1

These ones are more similar but can't really tell which is the match: DORMAN 610103 | DORMAN 610122 | 610-132.1

The drums are 10".

[challenger7070]

 The brake lining and drums heat up on constant braking. this initially causes the brakes to start to fade ( loose grip). eventually the fluid gets overheated and unless it is fresh, new fluid it will boil.
The air bubbles in the lines compress causing to pedal to drop to the floor. No brakes at all now.

Love this info, it does make me think... getting it back together and driving on these drums for the cost of some new lugs and brake hoses will be the quickest and most cost effective to get it back up and running, BUT once it's had its shakedown (all flat town roads around here) so it'll only gentle driving, then I can start to work on gathering the disc conversion. I guess I like the idea of keeping it original but some parts maybe aren't worth it. If drums just won't hold up to more demanding regular use, it's probably not worth keeping them in the long run.

 Keep the parts all Mopar.
 When you start to cobble a brake system using parts from various makes and models you get a mismatched system and constant brake problem headaches.  There are many links to using factory Mopar parts which makes it much easier to have a compatible system that you can buy parts for from any auto parts store in the future if you need to service the system.

I completely agree, and I'm very relieved that it's fairly straightforward to go put Mopar discs on. I appreciate what the aftermarket can do (Wilwood in this case) but I do share the same sentiment that it's better to stick with fewer aftermarket complications on these kinds of things and go with what the factory did. I agree with no rear discs, coming from a GM background (hence referring to their brake conversions) which are mostly disc-drum, I see a lot of folks jump onto the rear disc conversion wagon and it's not providing them much above headaches and extra cost when the rear drums were working fine. 

Thank you kindly for the links, I'm going to start assembling the list once it is up and running on the road which is proving to be more of a challenge.

[challenger7070]

Little update as I was able to compare to those lug studs.


• DORMAN 610039 (610-039.1) / 98147.1
This one has the fully knurled shoulder and measured around 0.627". You can place it right in the old lug hole without any pressure needed. It rocks slightly back and forth so it's definitely too small. It would spin when trying to torque the lug nuts.

• DORMAN 610122 (610-122.1) 98142.1
This measures at 0.650" knurl diamater and looks closest to the one that was in there from factory. Can't push it into the old hole by hand, so this should fit snugly with the extra diameter and will require pressing in. It has a longer shoulder compared to the one below.

• Dorman 610-132.1 (9830.1)
This one has a knurl diameter of around 0.687". But it also looks like it could fit as placing it in, the threads go through about 3/4 of the way before the shoulder makes contact with the hub. Almost looks like it could work too, but the shoulder is definitely wider diameter after measuring against the 610122.

[moonshine_mike]

I'm going though a similar process for my 11" Cuda front drums which have now exceeded life. Looking at changing the drum and studs. I have what I think are the correct studs to match the original ones which I do have with markings on the heads. Dorman 610-132 and 610-133L for RH and LH complimentary pairs with .65 Knurl) The drum stud hole diameter is .64". Although the knurl part won't get to the drum, I do hope for a "soft" friction fit with the drum since the stud shaft smooth part is also .64". I may have to dimple for a light swedge effect. If not a good tight fit then the drum may "very lightly float" and be easier to remove. I don't think it will effect the center roundness. No one has pointed out an issue yet with this approach.

[challenger7070]

How are you getting on moonshine_mike?

I ended up removing the studs on the other front drum, as the threads on some of the were damaged. Figured I may as well restore both hubs at the same time in that case. The studs that came out matched the DORMAN 610122 (610-122.1) 98142.1 exactly, so I will go ahead use those to install into both hubs.

Matching things up, with my 10" front drums and the DORMAN 610122 (610-122.1) 98142.1, it would appear that I have the Budd style drums. Hopefully this helps others in the future trying to determine Budd vs. Motor Wheel system. One more Mopar mystery unravelled.

[moonshine_mike]

Haven't been able to start yet. Just returned from multi week travel to another country taking care of my elderly mom. Do this a few times a year sharing the load with family.
While I was gone all parts I ordered arrived, so I am ready to get started.
I may have missed it, but what did you use to cut into the drum around the stud? 

[moonshine_mike]

Just made some progress.
First issue noticed was that new drums do not have the circumference groove for the vibration spring. Don't even know if you can purchase new drums with the groove. So proceeded anyways with the new drum.

Second, used a 3/4" deep drill bit to drill only the drum flesh but not the hub. I measured this to be about 1/4". Goal is to save the hub/studs and discard the drum.
The first few pictures below show the results.

Third, just lightly pressed the hub/studs out of the drum in one assembly. This dropped out extremely easy. One the next drum I will drill less than 1/4" as this depth also touched slightly into the hub. Pictures show the hub.

Fourth, Fit the hub into the new drum. This was not a press fit and the new drum has a little bit of play. Drilled stud diameter are .615 and holes in new drum is .640. Picture added.

So here are the questions that I could use help on:
1) Do I install as is? Likely no movement once wheel torqued on.
OR
2) Do I press the old studs out and install new ones with diameter .625 to pick up some slop.

[challenger7070]

I apologise for the delay Mike, time is flying. I'm sure the family appreciate the effort you make to look after them, especially needing to go overseas, that it is a lot of dedication. I'm in somewhat of a similar situation but less so and without the overseas travel, I can understand somewhat the situation. It means a lot to them.

Good work on the progress you've made, you jumped ahead of me. I used a 5/16th holesaw, fit perfectly over the stud. So much so, it was an exact fit an self centred which was perfect. I was conservative in the depth of cut, initially going 1/16th only, aiming to just get to the swedge. I went back and cut down to 1/8th of an inch and was able to hammer the studs out - I did this by putting a socket underneath, the socket was larger diameter than the stud head, this way the hub was being supported on the socket and the socket was taking the pressure. With some penetrating fluid to assist, the studs came out without much effort.

On separating the drum from hub, I realised the drum was 1/4" thick so I could have drilled some more, but wanted to avoid potentially cutting into the hub. In future, it's good to know that 3/16 would be a good amount to go to.

How was easy was it to press those studs in? 

I've installed one 0.650" so far and it took some effort. The studs have been in the freezer for a week to shrink them as much as possible and applied grease but it was still a lot of work. I ask due to the thought of your changing out the studs over to 0.650" ones. If they went in really easy, they might spin under torque?

I have only installed the one but I will fit the drum over it later today and let you know how it fits. The other side was already done by a prior owner and I decided to cleanup and derust that hub. The drum required some persuasion to come off and the lugs were tight on the drum holes, if that helps with the decision on what to do.
I will report back on how the fit is with a drum put over.

I didn't know about "circumference groove for the vibration spring". I didn't see a spring, or maybe I missed it, when taking off. Or is that something that goes between the drum and the wheel?

[moonshine_mike]

Below is just copied from my other thread on this topic.......

Completed some updates to the 11" front drums today but have not test driven the Cuda.
I cut around the studs with .75" circular bit essentially cutting the drum material.
Only deep enough to get the swage. (a couple do go deeper). Then the hub pressed out with very little pressure leaving the studs unharmed except the small swage section of stud. Then simply slid on some new pre balanced drums. The drum stud opening holes were only a miniscule larger than the remaining studs so there is definitely no press fit here. But she went back together very easily. If the drum does shiver slightly on the hub during test ride which I don't expect, I will have to rethink things and might redo the studs. if I feel a shiver during high speed stopping I can still rebalance the entire assembly also. I'll repeatedly test drive the Cuda in the next couple weeks and provide another update.   

[moonshine_mike]

Below is a picture of the spring on the outside of the drum.(steel color) I think these were used as a vibration damper. At any rate, new, replacement drums manufactured today are supposed to be precision balanced, thus not need this spring. In the new replacement drums I purchased, the groove designed into the drum that holds the spring in place is not present. It takes a bit of the OEM "character" away from the drums in my opinion but rather than finding an NOS part, I'm not aware of any great options.