is the cost of restoring an E body exceeding its value when complete?

[chargerdon]

Better question might be....is any classic car worth restoring without being upside down?   

Back in 2001 i bought a 66 Charger in need of total restoration for $2000.    I was working full time back then so spent a lot of my free time only working on the Charger.    I put probably around 500 hours of work on it learning as i went how to do body work.   Had to because there arent a lot a NEW parts available for a 66 Charger...as an example, no one makes a full quarter panel for it.   

I did a partial overhaul of the engine myself, paid to have the 727 overhauled, repaired the rotating headlights and its controls, etc, etc.   I think i probably took a lot of "cheap cuts".   As an example, because of its design the carpeting is a total of 11 pieces and cost north of $500.   So, instead, i bought enough Saxon outdoor carpeting for about $60 at Home depot and used the old pieces as templates, and with a steamer replaced all of the carpeting.   It looks good.   I prepped the body in Epoxy and 2K pringer and blocked it then had a professional do the final paint job.   

I guess i have in addition to the 500 hours about $10K in parts and services into it so its COST to me is around $12K.    Now recognize it if were a 68 Charger it would have been easier because body panels are available as is all of the other parts, and would be worth restored in the $25-$50K range.   But, 66 Chargers arent in demand...so doubt it if could get more than $18-20K for it.   

Point being, if your doing this for a hobby, like me...then the thrill of bringing a rare 66 Charger back to life is FANTASTIC...  But, if you want to make money at it, find a 66 Chevelle instead or a 69 Camaro, or a 50's Ford truck, or a 69 Mustang fastback..Mopars are not great investments.   

[chargerdon]

One last point...   if you want to be at least close to breaking even...then DO NOT be a "Purist"   By that i mean a good new part such as a bumper, generally is less than a third of a rechromed or like new OEM bumper.    To me a decent brand looks just fine...can a purist tell the difference...sure...but then i never expect to ship the car to Arizona for the Barrett auctions either.   Cracks me up when people insist on OEM NOS parts...   

[YYZ]

Ground-up rebuilds of most cars, including our beloved E-bodies, are not good financial investments if one is strict about tracking costs (including time).  There are obviously some exceptions, but for the most part it is a hobby and should be looked at as such.

A lot of the custom car and hot rod builders may have well into 6-figures into their builds, and they do it for the love of the car or the project because the financial return will almost certainly be negative.

IIRC the consensus here was that a ground-up restoration is about 2000 hours of time.  Now, if one has the time, space, talent, and does it to relax; then you might not count those costs.  But if the work has to be farmed out, or you have to pay to have other things done so you have time to work on the car, something should be added into it.

Let's take a '70 'Cuda 340 4-speed hardtop as an example:

Project car (more or less complete): $15,000
Sheetmetal (almost every E-body needs some): $3,000
Good quality paint - base, 4K clear: $3,000
Rad: $500
Dash: $500
Door panels: $1,000
Seat covers & foams: $1,000
Carpets & misc interior: $500
Engine rebuild: $3,000
Carb restoration: $500
Replacement bumpers: $800 (good rechroming will be a lot more)
Brakes: $500
Correct style exhaust with tips: $1,000
Wheels/tires: $1,500
Trans rebuild: $1,000
Clutch assembly (resurface flywheel, new clutch, pressure plate, throwout bearing etc.) $1,000
Axle rebuild/refresh (new Sure-grip, bearings, seals): $1,000
Suspension rebuild: $1,000
Steering box rebuild: $500
Engine compartment detailing: $1,500 (correct appearing hoses, belts, wiring, straps etc.)
Repro battery and cables: $500
Refresh grille: $500
Wiring harnesses: $1,000

Already, one is at about $40K, without a penny being allocated on sheetmetal or bodywork, or assembly of the car.

It's about 300 hours for a decent paint job, including prep, blocking, cut/buff etc. so multiply the local hourly rate by 300.

Add glass, weatherstrip, brake lines etc. etc. etc.

What does a concours '70 340 sell for?  Unless it's a convertible, then it's probably mid-high 5-figures. 

If one can buy a '71 for similar money, there is a greater chance of upside, but certainly no guarantee.

YMMV

[cbrown888]

With my 45 years in the auto industry and having multiple minor and major restorations under my belt including my 71 Challenger that I brought back from the dead 30 years ago and I still have I can attest that you are not restoring a car to get return on investment, you are doing it for a hobby and self pride. I know of many people who bought a car that needed restoration and brought it to a shop only to get taken over the coals. I have seen some horrid restorations and if you want it done right you will pay. My dentist is a prime example. He had a 66 Corvette convertible that wanted to get the car freshened up. I referred him to a gentleman who had 2 judging standard Corvettes, a 67 L88 coupe and a 71 LT1 convertible which he restored himself and was awed by the quality of his work. My dentist drove his car over to Walt and he got a price. He then went to a Corvette "specialist", who gave him a great price. He handed the car over to him and he got nickeled and dimed to the point of costing much more than the guy I recommended and the final result was the car looked worse than when it went in the shop. Bottom line is if you are not willing to do a majority of the work yourself don't expect to be in the black after the car is done.

[anlauto]

Ground-up rebuilds of most cars, including our beloved E-bodies, are not good financial investments if one is strict about tracking costs (including time).  There are obviously some exceptions, but for the most part it is a hobby and should be looked at as such.

A lot of the custom car and hot rod builders may have well into 6-figures into their builds, and they do it for the love of the car or the project because the financial return will almost certainly be negative.

IIRC the consensus here was that a ground-up restoration is about 2000 hours of time.  Now, if one has the time, space, talent, and does it to relax; then you might not count those costs.  But if the work has to be farmed out, or you have to pay to have other things done so you have time to work on the car, something should be added into it.

Let's take a '70 'Cuda 340 4-speed hardtop as an example:

Project car (more or less complete): $15,000
Sheetmetal (almost every E-body needs some): $3,000
Good quality paint - base, 4K clear: $3,000
Rad: $500
Dash: $500
Door panels: $1,000
Seat covers & foams: $1,000
Carpets & misc interior: $500
Engine rebuild: $3,000
Carb restoration: $500
Replacement bumpers: $800 (good rechroming will be a lot more)
Brakes: $500
Correct style exhaust with tips: $1,000
Wheels/tires: $1,500
Trans rebuild: $1,000
Clutch assembly (resurface flywheel, new clutch, pressure plate, throwout bearing etc.) $1,000
Axle rebuild/refresh (new Sure-grip, bearings, seals): $1,000
Suspension rebuild: $1,000
Steering box rebuild: $500
Engine compartment detailing: $1,500 (correct appearing hoses, belts, wiring, straps etc.)
Repro battery and cables: $500
Refresh grille: $500
Wiring harnesses: $1,000

Already, one is at about $40K, without a penny being allocated on sheetmetal or bodywork, or assembly of the car.

It's about 300 hours for a decent paint job, including prep, blocking, cut/buff etc. so multiply the local hourly rate by 300.

Add glass, weatherstrip, brake lines etc. etc. etc.

What does a concours '70 340 sell for?  Unless it's a convertible, then it's probably mid-high 5-figures. 

If one can buy a '71 for similar money, there is a greater chance of upside, but certainly no guarantee.

YMMV

It's been my experience that you're "light" on, if not all, then just about all of your numbers, but you still get your point across.....there's very few cases where someone can restore (complete ground up restoration to a high caliber, not just a full and buff of and already decent car) a car and sell it for more money...and if they say they can, they're likely not counting every dollar invested...

[anlauto]

My dentist is a prime example. He had a 66 Corvette convertible that wanted to get the car freshened up. I referred him to a gentleman who had 2 judging standard Corvettes, a 67 L88 coupe and a 71 LT1 convertible which he restored himself and was awed by the quality of his work. My dentist drove his car over to Walt and he got a price. He then went to a Corvette "specialist", who gave him a great price. He handed the car over to him and he got nickeled and dimed to the point of costing much more than the guy I recommended and the final result was the car looked worse than when it went in the shop.

Lost count on how many times I've heard stories, or had to bail people out of stories like these 

[anlauto]

I like the guys who compare restoring a car to playing golf....if it's your hobby, you don't keep track of your equipment costs, green fees, beers, chicken wings etc.....so why keep track of your car part purchases 

[RUNCHARGER]

See: That's the deal. It's supposed to be a hobby. Golf green fees, lost balls and cost of the clubs are generally thought of as a cost not an investment. Like watching hockey or baseball? Nobody is going to offer you the price you paid for the tickets to a game.

[anlauto]

If you can afford a night out in Toronto to watch the Leafs lose again, the cost of your cars parts should be the least of your worries 

[RUNCHARGER]

Looks like this is their year though.....

[YYZ]

It's been my experience that you're "light" on, if not all, then just about all of your numbers, but you still get your point across.....there's very few cases where someone can restore (complete ground up restoration to a high caliber, not just a full and buff of and already decent car) a car and sell it for more money...and if they say they can, they're likely not counting every dollar invested...

- the numbers were conservative, they were just there to illustrate - '$500 here, $500 there, pretty soon you've got a lot into your car'

Budgeting a minimum of $75-100K (CAD or USD) for a proper, ground-up restoration is not unrealistic, especially if much of the work is outsourced. 

[Katfish]

See: That's the deal. It's supposed to be a hobby. Golf green fees, lost balls and cost of the clubs are generally thought of as a cost not an investment. Like watching hockey or baseball? Nobody is going to offer you the price you paid for the tickets to a game.

Exactly, I spend about $50/week on golf, so that's $50k over the last 20yrs.
I'm a detail person and have kept track of everything spent on my car.
Including the $2500 I paid for the car 20yrs ago, I also have $50k into my car.
It is a POS driver quality, and would probably only bring $15k if I sold it.
So yes, this is a hobby that you might get back 1/2 of what you invested.

Don't forget all the insurance, registration, storage, etc..........

[YYZ]

In short:

Buy and build a car because you like it/you like the process of restoration.

Enjoy the project/finished product.

If you break even or make money at the end, it's a bonus.

If minimizing the financial cost is your aim, then:

- you make your money when you buy

- buy something that is rare AND desirable

- be patient

- and if buying something 'done', or close to it, then choose something that's likely to appreciate (good colours, options, multi-carb (J/V/R codes) etc.

[70Challenger440]

This probably don't help  as much today and admittedly, I have not restored a Mopar in about 15 years. But what I used to do was find a nice one that seemed worse than it was was due to  details that were easy to correct and just needed an easy paint job (which I did all myself since I picked cars wisely that were within my abilities and could be done quickly). Even Short-term the car was always worth a little more than what I put into it. Now obviously they are worth way more being I kept them.   I never sold any so I don't need any more projects.  You have to think what will the car be worth in 10 years if you are worried about justifying costs. This plan might even work today, as I do from time to time still see a car that would work out in this method, although they are harder to find now. Just realize you have to be happy with a car in #2 condition when you are done (which I am). Patience is important as most Mopars then and now were overpriced and don't sell as quick as we think. I would make notes on cars I liked, and sure enough after contacting the seller months later, it was still for sale. Those who actually 'wanted' to sell their car, suddenly become more negotiable as they learned the hard way what their car's true market value is, (which to me is the price a car is able to actually sell for within 4 months).  On the plus side of all this, I  have never spent a cent on my car hobby "net".

[torredcuda]

I did all the work myself, but I wasn't doing it to try and make money.  The one thing that always seems funny to me is the labor. People say their time is worth X, but the reality is unless someone is willing to pay you for your time it's worth nothing. Doesn't matter if you're working on your car or sitting on the sofa watching Star Trek reruns. Don't get me wrong, if you do this for a living or if you decide not to go to work and work on your car instead, then there is money either being made or lost while working on your car. Then your time has value.

If all you have for a choice is "work on car" and "watch TV" then I get your point.

But for me, my time is divided by: going to work, driving kids to their practices/scout meetings, going to games/scout events, mowing the grass, trimming the trees, weeding the garden, splitting firewood to heat the house, maintain the family vehicles -- oil changes, tire rotations, brake jobs, etc, do the laundry, cook dinner, wash dishes, clean the bathrooms, make time to visit with family while they're still alive and well, go on family vacations so the kids grow up with memories of a happy family that did things together...

In that case, you can bet your ass that my time has value; because any time spent working on the hobby car is time not spent doing the other things, and increases the liklihood that I end up paying someone else to do the work I didn't get to.   Like paying someone to mow the grass, clean the house, work on the family daily drivers, etc.

And for those reasons you mentioned is why it is a hobby for most and takes years to complete.

I used to have no kids, the ex worked a lot and I had ambition and energy but due somewhat to lack of time because of the other priorities mentioned (young wife and kid now and the usual house stuff) and mainly money my projects always take years. Like others I enjoy taking a rusty heap and turning it into a cool car, it`s a sense of accomplishment building something I am passionate about, unfortunately I am hitting the age where I am lacking the ambition to keep doing it and that sucks.