71 Challenger RT

[dodj]

I wouldn't go near that car for $40k. It's a virtual guarantee you will be tearing it down to redo. Just my 

[Daveh]

I agree - I bought a complete running driver that I thought was a perfect driver 5 years ago.  Now I'm reassembling it after the restoration I did.  Hey but that's the hobby.  If you don't like it don't buy it. 

[anlauto]

I wouldn't go near that car for $40k. It's a virtual guarantee you will be tearing it down to redo. Just my 

If that's the case then you bought it with your expectations set way to high....That's what I'm trying to get at....When buying a done car these days $40K doesn't get you much...Is there better cars out there then this one for $40K YES there certainly is, but I'm sure there's lots of worse cars too...


Looking at the "before" pictures, if someone wanted me to restore that car properly, the restoration cost would likely be around $70K-$80K. For a car that MIGHT bring $50K-$60K when finished (and I think that's high for a 383 auto.)
So whoever did this restoration...Did they cut corners ???....YOU BET.....is it reflected in the asking price ???...certainly is, and like mentioned....you can't expect a quality restored 71 shaker Challenger for $40K  you have to set your expectations much lower.

[RUNCHARGER]

70 Challenger: I think the discussion is worthwhile, Alan and I are not saying the car is a perfect restoration, we both agree it can't be a perfect resto for $40k and 3 months. It could be an okay deal but we're not saying that it is, only an inspection would confirm it's value. If the car received correctly installed new floors, quarters and roof skin it would a no brainer. However maybe it got patches in the roof, patches in the quarters, patches in the outer wheelhouses and floor patches.
For me, I don't think I would buy the car now but I would have loved to buy it in project form and I probably would have spent more than it is worth on restoring it.

[pyro273]

Hell, from what I saw at Barrett Jackson Scottsdale last year I'd say that 60K or more doesn't get you much any more.   Every '70 E-body, but one, that I was interested in BLEW through my top bid before I could enter the action.  Several Hemi Cuda recreations with pretty significant fit, body, engine issues that went for what I thought were ridiculous prices and that was before the bidders fee.  It left me truly depressed..... 

[70 Challenger Lover]

70 Challenger: I think the discussion is worthwhile, Alan and I are not saying the car is a perfect restoration, we both agree it can't be a perfect resto for $40k and 3 months. It could be an okay deal but we're not saying that it is, only an inspection would confirm it's value. If the car received correctly installed new floors, quarters and roof skin it would a no brainer. However maybe it got patches in the roof, patches in the quarters, patches in the outer wheelhouses and floor patches.
For me, I don't think I would buy the car now but I would have loved to buy it in project form and I probably would have spent more than it is worth on restoring it.

Well I do get that but what I cannot grasp is how the guy could lie and this not be a major concern to anyone. Has deception become so common place these days that we accept it so easily? His ad specifically said the car had minor surface rust. It obviously had major holes in it. I've had cars that looked better and still needed several thousand in sheet metal alone not including labor. He might have done it correctly or even somewhat okay but if that is true, then why lie about it? He could have been completely honest and that wouldn't scare anyone off. I would never ever buy a car from someone I caught lying about it's restoration. Now matter what he showed me now or explained to me, his credibility is zero. Even if I inspected the car, I wouldn't trust him. And I simply refuse to believe that a liar would have switched out all that rusted metal and restored the car to a nice driver condition in a matter of months. I might believe anyone of you guys in here but I refuse to accept that from a guy who clearly lied in his ad.

Many of you have said in other posts that if you can't be certain what's under the paint then buyer beware. That's good advice. Here we have a guy who is lying and now the advice is "see it in person and if you like it then what the heck, roll the dice and buy it". That blows me away. Particularly when I have seen far more cautionary advice from you guys in the recent past about other cars that had none of the red flags I'm talking about.

From the start, I had a funny feeling about the car so I threw it out there and for the most part, the responses have been "not seeing any real concerns here." I point out one thing after another but no change in opinion. I agree that none of the things I mention are huge and each can be explained away yet when viewed in totality, I think it spells out "run like hell from this car." Maybe I'm wrong. I can live with that. I still have a bad vibe about this car and that hasn't even changed despite all the rationalizations I'm hearing.

Not once have I said he is asking too much. If he was honest and willing to show that the work was done reasonably well, I'd agree that the price is fair. Hell, I'd like the car myself. But I believe the facts here strongly suggest he did a very unacceptable job and is trying to hide the work from the new owners rather than disclose the work he did. We all agree he didn't do an 80k resto job but I'm trying to argue that he polished a turd and threw it on the market. You are free to believe that it's all on the up and up though.

Not trying to ruffle feathers here. Just a bit taken back by the responses. But hey, I did try to start a good discussion and we certainly got it!

[aussiemark]

The seller is full of crap no doubt about it, maybe he should take it to one of those fancy auctions.

[dodj]

I wouldn't go near that car for $40k. It's a virtual guarantee you will be tearing it down to redo. Just my 

If that's the case then you bought it with your expectations set way to high....That's what I'm trying to get at....When buying a done car these days $40K doesn't get you much.

I find this amazing. Not disputing it. Just find the $$ associated with ebodies nowadays a little mind boggling. I picked mine up by swapping a Remington 700 for it. I lost out on a '71 440 4sp R/T because I didn't have the $600 he was asking for it. Now $40k doesn't get you much. Amazing.

[anlauto]

Would it make a difference to you if, hypothetically, the current owner didn't restore the car ?

What I mean is, what if the car has been bought and sold a few times since being restored ? Let's say the original story or "truth" about the restoration has been lost ? 

You have to buy the car based on the current pictures and the recently surfaced "before" pictures ?


Does that change your mind ?

Because in my opinion, along with an inspection, that's how every car should be purchased. Put aside the "owned by a little old lady that just drove it to church" stories and buy the car for what it is now, not what is was.

[RUNCHARGER]

Yeah: I guess we are becoming hardened. To be honest I expect every car seller to be full of crap these days. I would never, ever buy a car sight unseen, I just expect everyone else to be the same. On the Railroad we had a saying, Believe nothing of what you hear and half of what you see.

[70 Challenger Lover]

Would it make a difference to you if, hypothetically, the current owner didn't restore the car ?

What I mean is, what if the car has been bought and sold a few times since being restored ? Let's say the original story or "truth" about the restoration has been lost ? 

You have to buy the car based on the current pictures and the recently surfaced "before" pictures ?


Does that change your mind ?

Because in my opinion, along with an inspection, that's how every car should be purchased. Put aside the "owned by a little old lady that just drove it to church" stories and buy the car for what it is now, not what is was.

I don't disagree but lack of information is very different that deliberate deception in my opinion and that makes it a major issue to be factored in. An inspection only gets you so far. And as stated before, many eBay buyers will not inspect the car. They should but the reality is many, if not most, will not. That is when deception really matters most. Part of buying a car is talking to the seller for a bit to get a feel for him. Those phone conversations occur in eBay sales and buyers often base their decision on whether they have a good feeling about the seller. They probably shouldn't but it's quite common. If you trust the seller, then you get to decide for yourself if the engine really was rebuilt recently or ten years ago but now has fresh paint. Inspections are great but interviews can also be extremely revealing. Except here, the conversation begins with you knowing he has no problem lying about big matters. Anything positive he tells us now is highly questionable. Entering into a car buy knowing the seller is dishonest is inviting trouble.

We aren't talking about "no, that dress doesn't make you look fat" white lies either. His deception is aimed at getting people to make an impulse buy without looking too hard. So why would he do that when these cars are so hot that they sell very quickly for big money? Considering the poor original condition, the speed he got it back to looking good, and (most importantly) the fact that he is telling potential buyers it had only light surface rust, I think it's a very good bet that the new owner is going to be super pissed as sheets of thick bondo begin cracking under that shiny paint where it was slathered on top of rusty metal.

I admit though that I could be wrong here. Maybe the guy got that craigslist car for a super bargain. Maybe he had three people working day and night to turn it around properly in just a few months. Maybe this is his first time so he has a new account. Maybe he felt compelled to lie because he didn't appreciate just how strong the market is on these cars. Or maybe someone is about to buy a time Bomb here. Im betting this thing is a pig wearing lipstick.

The restoration itself doesn't concern me. Just be honest about what you know. It will still sell for decent money and the buyer will never have hard feelings when he discovers those nasty surprises. Our whole society is based around trust and perhaps dishonesty bothers me more than it should but there is so much money to be made in this world doing things honestly and ethically. I cannot help but think people like this are selfish scumbags who don't care about screwing people over.

If I ran into a situation you describe where the seller knows very little, I would factor that into my decision and adjust the price accordingly. You can bet my gut feeling on whether or not he was honest would greatly factor in.

And I get what all of you are saying. I'm over analyzing. Over thinking. Maybe I am. My experience working with fraud victims though has taught me that people don't take the time to analyze enough. I've been screwed over by a-holes like this when I was younger with cars and I will bend over backwards to help people avoid what I've been through. Now I look at potential car buys using more than just my eyes.

[RUNCHARGER]

Your point is valid alright. Although like I typed above I expect to be disappointed. I do try to not deal with BSers' no matter how much I may want something. I've passed on more than a few high profile cars for this reason.

[dodj]

Would it make a difference to you if, hypothetically, the current owner didn't restore the car ?

What I mean is, what if the car has been bought and sold a few times since being restored ? Let's say the original story or "truth" about the restoration has been lost ? 

You have to buy the car based on the current pictures and the recently surfaced "before" pictures ?


Does that change your mind ?

Because in my opinion, along with an inspection, that's how every car should be purchased. Put aside the "owned by a little old lady that just drove it to church" stories and buy the car for what it is now, not what is was.

Oh, I'm agreeing with you Allan. My expectations of what $40k should get me in an ebody are too high...apparently.
I'm currently looking for another car, but based on what my $$ get me, it is unlikely to be an ebody. I'm hoping for a '72 RR.