UPDATE....FRAUD Alert for BS23JOB296260 Vitamin C AAR

[torredcuda]

It's going to get very interesting when you can buy a complete Cuda body shell from AMD.  AMD is working on this.  It will be licensed by Mopar Performance as a certified restoration part.
Swap VIN's and go time.  I'm not saying is right or wrong, but Chevy and Ford guys are already doing this with first gen camaros and vintage mustangs.  That AAR tag and title would fit nicely on a restoration piece like that.

So since it's only a state thing, are states falling for this AMD car with welded in VIN stampings to help legitimizing these cars?



I don't see it as saving a rare car with this kind of exchange and weld job, just fraud to create more value, it's a clone or tribute that removed a real car from the market to bring back a fake.

The argument is what is the difference between welding in the vin or replacing 99% of the body panels - it`s really the same thing in the end.

[Cuda_mark]

It's going to get very interesting when you can buy a complete Cuda body shell from AMD.  AMD is working on this.  It will be licensed by Mopar Performance as a certified restoration part.
Swap VIN's and go time.  I'm not saying is right or wrong, but Chevy and Ford guys are already doing this with first gen camaros and vintage mustangs.  That AAR tag and title would fit nicely on a restoration piece like that.

So since it's only a state thing, are states falling for this AMD car with welded in VIN stampings to help legitimizing these cars?



I don't see it as saving a rare car with this kind of exchange and weld job, just fraud to create more value, it's a clone or tribute that removed a real car from the market to bring back a fake.

The argument is what is the difference between welding in the vin or replacing 99% of the body panels - it`s really the same thing in the end.

Agree Torrecuda. One could argue that if a pristine original body is used, it is more legit than a car that has had a majority of aftermarket metal put on it because the rebody would contain more factory sheet metal. I think the key is just representing the car properly. Anything done nowadays should have a fully documented restoration full of thousands of pictures. Things that were done in the 80's and 90's...that's a different story.

[worthywads]

It's going to get very interesting when you can buy a complete Cuda body shell from AMD.  AMD is working on this.  It will be licensed by Mopar Performance as a certified restoration part.
Swap VIN's and go time.  I'm not saying is right or wrong, but Chevy and Ford guys are already doing this with first gen camaros and vintage mustangs.  That AAR tag and title would fit nicely on a restoration piece like that.

So since it's only a state thing, are states falling for this AMD car with welded in VIN stampings to help legitimizing these cars?



I don't see it as saving a rare car with this kind of exchange and weld job, just fraud to create more value, it's a clone or tribute that removed a real car from the market to bring back a fake.

The argument is what is the difference between welding in the vin or replacing 99% of the body panels - it`s really the same thing in the end.

Agree Torrecuda. One could argue that if a pristine original body is used, it is more legit than a car that has had a majority of aftermarket metal put on it because the rebody would contain more factory sheet metal. I think the key is just representing the car properly. Anything done nowadays should have a fully documented restoration full of thousands of pictures. Things that were done in the 80's and 90's...that's a different story.

Torrecuda - That is the argument of those that want to make more money creating a car that was lost.  Most of us wouldn't pay top dollar for a re-body that someone is saying is legit but evidence show it isn't.  Evidenced by the mecum Hemi that is a 71 with evidence it started as a 70.  Better fraud is still fraud.

Cuda_mark - No one in the re-body business wants to represent the fraud properly, so it's not likely buyers will find sellers with documentation showing a re-body.

I've no intention of making my 70 Challenger convertible into an R/T clone, but I could get every detail right except for the 318 VIN and body stampings.  It would has some value but never command an authentic R/T convertible price.  Along comes an opportunity to buy an envelope with a couple VIN stampings and a build sheet and dash VIN and fender tags.  I transfer those accurately and now it's time to sell it as an R/T, should it be worth more?  Was a rare car really saved?  Should I disclose and then not get top dollar?  Seems very unlikely people would re-body if they had to disclose.

[torredcuda]

Do you have to disclose that you replaced 90% of the body due to rust or accident, do you have to disclose the rear end, the interior, the suspension was changed? Documentation and pictures can prove or dis-prove many things on a resto but even all that can be faked/forged. Numbers are stamped into the bodies for one reason - to identify the vehicle for registration, ownership, if it`s stolen etc., otherwise it really didn`t matter which car had which body (excpet for minor diffeences - auto/4 spd, reinforcements etc.)

[70_440-6Cuda]

It's going to get very interesting when you can buy a complete Cuda body shell from AMD.  AMD is working on this.  It will be licensed by Mopar Performance as a certified restoration part.
Swap VIN's and go time.  I'm not saying is right or wrong, but Chevy and Ford guys are already doing this with first gen camaros and vintage mustangs.  That AAR tag and title would fit nicely on a restoration piece like that.

So since it's only a state thing, are states falling for this AMD car with welded in VIN stampings to help legitimizing these cars?



I don't see it as saving a rare car with this kind of exchange and weld job, just fraud to create more value, it's a clone or tribute that removed a real car from the market to bring back a fake.

The argument is what is the difference between welding in the vin or replacing 99% of the body panels - it`s really the same thing in the end.

Agree Torrecuda. One could argue that if a pristine original body is used, it is more legit than a car that has had a majority of aftermarket metal put on it because the rebody would contain more factory sheet metal. I think the key is just representing the car properly. Anything done nowadays should have a fully documented restoration full of thousands of pictures. Things that were done in the 80's and 90's...that's a different story.

Totally agree with @Cuda_mark; how the car is represented is the key.  Some of the projects I have seen on this site jave had incredible metal work done by some extremely talented people - however if you have to replace 85% of the existing metal to bring the car back to life, I hardly see a difference in taking a solid Gran Coupe and swapping the firewall and radiator support - the end result is the same - 85% of the original metal is gone.  The important part is that future buyers understand HOW the car was restored.  In the '90s '60s and '70s muscle cars were cheap and we never gave any thought to keeping them original or to future value.  There will always be crooks looking to take advantage of unsuspecting buyers.  For me, a rebody is not a deal breaker if I know what has been done.

[Katfish]

And that's the dilemma,
Replacing 80-90% of the metal, but keeping the VIN, is ok.
But keeping 90% of the metal, and replacing the VIN, is a rebody.

Kinda funny, I'd rather have the 2nd

[anlauto]

"GREY AREA" been discussed a million times.....What came first, the chicken or the egg ?

[YYZ]

If the tags are legit, and are used to re-build a car that actually exists or existed...

Then it's just an argument about the level of originality.

Which is why survivor cars and/or those with excellent provenance are the ones that command top dollar

[worthywads]

And that's the dilemma,
Replacing 80-90% of the metal, but keeping the VIN, is ok.
But keeping 90% of the metal, and replacing the VIN, is a rebody.

Kinda funny, I'd rather have the 2nd

I might too, but at a little more than clone price, since it is essentially a clone.

[torredcuda]

And that's the dilemma,
Replacing 80-90% of the metal, but keeping the VIN, is ok.
But keeping 90% of the metal, and replacing the VIN, is a rebody.

Kinda funny, I'd rather have the 2nd

I might too, but at a little more than clone price, since it is essentially a clone.

So any car that is restored with non-original factory parts, aftermarket or even used sheet metal from another car, non-numbers engine, trans etc. would also be considered a clone.

[dodj]

The only reason this kind of debate exists is because when the laws were being drafted, no one thought cars would be brought back from little more than a steering wheel. My opinion anyway.
If a company like AMD or Dynacorn can supply a whole shell for you to put a vin on, isn't the whole rebody thing kind of moot?

I don't have to worry about getting burned..I play around in the base model zone....

[torredcuda]

I had a `71 road runner a while back, 340,4 spd, EV2 car, I bought from a friend who dug it out of his buddys swampy back yard where it sat for years after being parted out. The front floor/torsion bar crossmember/frame are was toast and plenty or rust in the rest of it as well. I have never done a body swap but this car was a good candidate for one. Yes, I could have fixed it if I had a body jig to keep everything in line but IMO it would have been better to find a more solid donor body. I ended up selling it as I already had too many other projects and I think the guy who bought it scrapped the car and sold the tags on E-bay after telling me he was going to restore it.   

[Filthy Filbert]

So, if I have a sail boat, and every time a board rots; I replace it.   Eventually every board is replaced.   

At that point, is it still my original boat?

The intent to fraud is where it becomes a slippery slope.  First guy does it all on the up and up.  3 or 4 owners down the line, what was done is lost. Now the 5th guy thinks he has an all original car, but nobody did anything to intentionally fraud someone.  They just didn't pass on all of the info because they didn't think it was critical. 


My car has swapped body stampings.  But that's because it has new AMD metal and I wanted to keep the original stampings.  Today this is acceptable as a "restoration".   What happens in 30 years when things change and we don't view it the same way? 

[YYZ]

So, if I have a sail boat, and every time a board rots; I replace it.   Eventually every board is replaced.   

At that point, is it still my original boat?

The question is as old as time:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

To your point though, as time and generations go on, it matters less about how the car was repaired/resurrected and more about 'did it ever exist' - ie is it a factory Hemicuda with certain options, or just a figment of someone's imagination?

[torredcuda]

They are only original once, everything else is restored and "buyer beware" because a lot of things can happen over 40-50 years.