340 Rebuild dead cam lobe help!

[tonker1]

Hi all

I'm hoping for some advice on a dead cam lobe and two dead lifters on my 340 rebuild. It started to make ticking noises about 1000miles after break in so I opened it up.
This is my first engine build, I was super careful, went along page by page with Larry Sheppard's and William Burt's small block Mopar rebuild books.
I believe I made one mistake at the very end which was responsible for all the damage which is I bought high zinc break-in oil that turned out to be synthetic, not mineral based

What I was hoping for is recommendations on anything else I should check for before I buy another cam, and bolt it all back together.
I really don't want to have to pull the engine again and completely tare it down and pressure wash out the metal from the cam lobes and lifters.

1. Is there anything I else should be checking, no matter how random?
2. I'm surprised the #8 intake lifter wore down so much perfectly smoothly. I thought it would be lop sided or scooped out inside. Is this sort of wear normal?
3. As part of the rebuild the block was chem dipped, and the lifters bores smoothed. Lifter bore alignment was not fully inspected. That being said there is no slop in any of the bores with the lifters inserted. Can lifter bores be off angle even if the lifters are snug and move smoothly in the bores? Is lifter bore alignment a common issue?

Damage
The number 5 intake lobe is flattened off and the lifter heavily damaged.
The number 8 intake lifter is worn about 0.060" shorter than the rest and the end is slightly sharp on the outer edge. It had to be removed after the cam by lowering it out of the bore into the cam area. The matching cam lobe looks completely normal.


Engine details: pretty mild rebuild
Cam: Lunati hyd flat tappet: adv: 262/268, lift: 475/494, sep: 112
Lifters: Lunati hyd flat tap lifters
Heads: Edelbrock rpm
Rockers, factory stamped
Rotating assembly, SCAT 373ci rotating assembly, forged ally pistons, cast crank
Static Compression ratio: 10.65:1
Pump: high volume melling pump
Oil: 15-40w running in oil synthetic, ooops.

Thanks in advance!!! I can take more photos of anything that might help.

[FSHTAIL]

Curious what the problem is on this...

"Oil: 15-40w running in oil synthetic, ooops."

oops? 

I noticed the high volumn oil pump, are you still running a stock oil pan or extra capasity version?

[jimynick]

Ask yourself- "where, oh where, did the material that used to be a lifter, go?" Then reconsider your thought that you don't want to remove and disassemble the engine again. I'll bet you didn't want the cam to eat itself either, but there you go. Please don't compound one mistake with another. Pull the engine and take it apart, wash and flush all galleries and spaces and start back again. You really don't need to hack this thing back together and then have a rotating assembly failure- do you? The metal that used to be that lifter is now in a fine grind, washed throughout your engine. Ignore it at your peril. Here endeth the sermon. 

[ledphoot]

Did you run zinc additives in your oil?

How much metal did you find in the oil pan?

[Chryco Psycho]

You have the engine out take it apart & clean it well , it may have been the oil or it could just be bad materials the lifters were made with . , sounds like youhad made a good cam choice .
Put it back together with care & use a good oil such as Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs , use a High pressure but not a high volume oil pump .
Even the best of us have lost cams in the past .

[Jim AAR]

That kind of wear has nothing to do with the type of oil or break in oil.

It looks like an eight of an inch is worn off the lifter after only 1000 miles. It should barely have any wear or cupping.

The 1st thing i would check is your pushrod length and straightness, then your lifter length and your spring travel because something is restricting the lobe from pushing up all the way and wearing the bottom of the lifter instead.

I can't believe it wore like that without bending a pushrod or putting it through the top of the stamped rocker or even bent a valve.

[tonker1]

Jimynick & Chryco, you are absolutely right and I should have been more clear, I'm definitely doing a full tear down at the moment, I don't want to have to do a complete tear down again after the next cam goes in. I've already got the pressure washer out
The only thing left to come out is the pistons and crankshaft. I need to make a clean space in the garage to store them first.


ledphoot There was quite a bit of metal in the pan, but not enough to make up for the damage for the lifter. Next stop was to cut open the filter and I found more. I'm finding chunks all over the place.
So far it appears the nothing has made it into the oil passages, which is extremely good news. I also used LUCAS OIL TB ZINC Plus break in additive. Like Jimynick said, I think most of it abraded off into a fine paste.

Chris D I'm running the stock pan, I have a mechanical oil pressure gauge in the cabin and I've never pressure drop under full throttle so I don't believe I've ran the pan dry yet. From my understanding you are meant to break in flat tappet cams with a full mineral oil and even then it might need additives on top. I thought only roller cams could be broken in with synthetic oil.

Jim AAR The pushrods are all straight, I rolled them over a flat measuring surface and they don't wobble and no light shows under the middle or edges.
I think the next step will be to strip down the heads and check all the valve motions and make sure there is no binding. I'd do it today, but I have to wait for valve spring compressor to come in stock.

I guess the bit I'm most concerned about is how much wore off. Unless I got two soft lifters, I'm surprised so much metal could have worn down. Particularly as the number 8 intake lobe on the cam looks completely normal.

[chargerdon]

on my 360LA engine with Lunati 703 cam and lifters, and double valve springs, i also ran into a lobe weardown quick problem.    It was replaced by warranty.   I had made two mistakes...   

First, i didnt use "break-in oil" but instead used a quality oil and ADDED extra zinc.  Lunati technician advised that that isnt the same as break-in oil and adding zinc instead of using a good break in with high zinc already in it is a NO NO.   He said after break-in if you want to use a conventional 10-30 and add zinc, that's fine...but AFTER BREAK IN.   

Second, Lunati strongly advised that i should have removed the inner valve spring before the first start up and break in, and then put the inner valve springs back in after break in.    I skipped this procedure as it requires buying a special spring compressor that works with the heads on the engine.   

3) Make sure you "pre-oil" before the first start.   I had done this until i could see oil coming up to the rockers.     

So, with the replacement cam i followed their instructions completely.   I bought that tool from Summit (around $50 if i remember right, wow...just looked and its up to $175) and it took about 3 hours to remove those inner springs, and then another 3 hours to put them back in, not to mention having to "re-seal" the valve covers.   I found it difficult as you have to hold it down with one hand and remove the keepers with the other praying you don't drop the keepers during the process.   I used the Driven break in oil (recommended by Lunati) with high Zinc and then after 50-100 miles, put back in the inner springs and changed oil using Driven High Zinc 10w-40 oil.    Then about 1500 miles (one year) changed oil again and this time used the Valvoline VR1 High zinc 10-30.   

No problems.   

[Strawdawg]

Did you drain the oil after the cam break in and replace it with the synthetic?  I am pretty sure that weight synthetic does not have much zddp in it unless you added some to it. 

The Lucas additive you used claims to have 5000 parts of zinc in it which is way too much for usage after break in. 

Personally, I have used Joe Gibbs break in oil which already has the zinc pre-mixed and then replaced it after the break in with oil that has adequate zddp in it from then on.   With the spring pressures used with the cam you selected, it should not take a great amount of zddp after break in.  Something like Valvoline Racing oil should have plenty but there are a number of others that fill the bill.

I have never seen lifters wear like that after such a short mileage.  Usually, they go flat and quit turning and that results in the cam lobe being scrubbed.  Your pictures look like a grinding wheel was used on both lifters and lobes.  Or they received no oil and were running dry.  My last possibility is that the lifters were not hardened properly.  Pretty sure we can eliminated the grinding wheel.

[tonker1]

Did you drain the oil after the cam break in and replace it with the synthetic?  I am pretty sure that weight synthetic does not have much zddp in it unless you added some to it. 

The Lucas additive you used claims to have 5000 parts of zinc in it which is way too much for usage after break in. 

Personally, I have used Joe Gibbs break in oil which already has the zinc pre-mixed and then replaced it after the break in with oil that has adequate zddp in it from then on.   With the spring pressures used with the cam you selected, it should not take a great amount of zddp after break in.  Something like Valvoline Racing oil should have plenty but there are a number of others that fill the bill.

I have never seen lifters wear like that after such a short mileage.  Usually, they go flat and quit turning and that results in the cam lobe being scrubbed.  Your pictures look like a grinding wheel was used on both lifters and lobes.  Or they received no oil and were running dry.  My last possibility is that the lifters were not hardened properly.  Pretty sure we can eliminated the grinding wheel.

I drained the oil and swapped the filter after cam break in, at 50miles, 200miles and 700miles. Each time I put in https://penriteoil.com.au/products/10-tenths-running-in-oil-15w-40-mineral
I was wrong in my first post, the running in oil was mineral oil. I went back to the shop and got them to pull up my purchase history to confirm.
I was really concerned about the cam break in, so I kept putting in break-in oil just to be sure it had maximum protection. Was this too much?
The lucas additive was only on the initial break in.

haha, yeah, I thought I new more than Lunati so I touched up the lobe profile with the grinder at home, I thought that's what all the racers did!!!!

I wondering about the not being properly hardened, I've checked over the lifters and I've noticed on there was quite a lot of variation in how depth, width and shaping of the oil groove at the top. I know this is not related to the hardening, but it made me wonder if I just got unlucky with a bad batch or funny castings.

on my 360LA engine with Lunati 703 cam and lifters, and double valve springs, i also ran into a lobe weardown quick problem.    It was replaced by warranty.   I had made two mistakes...   

First, i didnt use "break-in oil" but instead used a quality oil and ADDED extra zinc.  Lunati technician advised that that isnt the same as break-in oil and adding zinc instead of using a good break in with high zinc already in it is a NO NO.   He said after break-in if you want to use a conventional 10-30 and add zinc, that's fine...but AFTER BREAK IN.   

Second, Lunati strongly advised that i should have removed the inner valve spring before the first start up and break in, and then put the inner valve springs back in after break in.    I skipped this procedure as it requires buying a special spring compressor that works with the heads on the engine.   

3) Make sure you "pre-oil" before the first start.   I had done this until i could see oil coming up to the rockers.     

So, with the replacement cam i followed their instructions completely.   I bought that tool from Summit (around $50 if i remember right, wow...just looked and its up to $175) and it took about 3 hours to remove those inner springs, and then another 3 hours to put them back in, not to mention having to "re-seal" the valve covers.   I found it difficult as you have to hold it down with one hand and remove the keepers with the other praying you don't drop the keepers during the process.   I used the Driven break in oil (recommended by Lunati) with high Zinc and then after 50-100 miles, put back in the inner springs and changed oil using Driven High Zinc 10w-40 oil.    Then about 1500 miles (one year) changed oil again and this time used the Valvoline VR1 High zinc 10-30.   

No problems.   

The cam came with it's own pack of pre-lube which I used. Then the rest of the engine was treated to https://www.redlineoil.com/liquid-assembly-lube.

I welded up an oil primer out of an old oil pump driveshaft and ran it till oil pumped out to the rockers. I wasn't sure if running it for too long would squeeze the assembly lube out of the important places?

I have single part valve springs, that come assembled on the 60779 rpm head. The edelbrock 5767 spring has an open pressure of 310 and installed pressure of 120. They aren't super heavy so they shouldn't have put excess pressure on the cam during break in.


I've also confirmed that non of the oil ports are blocked throughout the engine, I've opened up the damaged lifters, there's no silicone from bad gasketing or any other smoking guns.
I drilled 1/32" holes in the end of the lifter oil galley plugs to get additional oil onto the timing chain as William Burt's rebuild small block Mopar, but that won't exactly drop oil pressure.

[ledphoot]

If I recall Rich followed that book when building my stroker, but I don't recall the drilled passages for the timing chain. He did the bypass to equalize oil pressure on both sides of the motor.

It's totally possible to get a bad set of lifters. GM has tens of thousands of them in their current vehicles. My buddy replaces cams and lifters at the dealership every week due to bad tempering on a large batch of lifters that went in to production. Lots of warranty work on damn near every V8 powered vehicle they sell including the latest Vette.

[DeathProofCuda]

In this day and age, I think that your best option for avoiding a similar outcome is to go with a roller cam.

[Cudajason]

In this day and age, I think that your best option for avoiding a similar outcome is to go with a roller cam.

@DeathProofCuda how easy or hard is it to add a roller cam to an LA motor???

[DeathProofCuda]

Unfortunately, I can't speak from experience, since I've never done it.  But based on everything you hear about cam and lifter quality these days, I would be taking a serious look at it if I was building a motor today.

There's obviously some higher costs associated with going with a roller, but it probably pencils out pretty quickly when you consider the increased potential of a failure with a flat tappet cam.  I "believe" that with a hydraulic roller that you could use stock rockers, maybe with upgraded valve springs, but a solid roller would require upgrading to adjustable rockers, if you don't already have them.

I'm sure there are others here with some real-world roller experience.

[tparker]

   I'm starting my motor up very shortly. 

Not sure if I'm lucky or not, but I had a purple shaft and a bunch of lifters since about 1990. I went with a hughes cam, but used the mopar lifters. Hopefully they will work.