440 build

[usraptor]

I don't have near the experience that Runcharger has building engines, however I can tell you what my 440 engine build consists of and that I'm very happy with the engines excellent street manners and it still runs like a scalded ape when I get on it.  However, I can't tell you the gas mileage as I don't bother to check it.  My 440 block was bored .30 over and line bored.  I used a 440 Source 512 Stroker kit.  However, my engine builder did replace the 440 source pistons with custom Diamond pistons and rebalanced the assembly.  Initially I used the Lunati 704 cam which performed well, however  I subsequently upgraded to a custom "Bullet" hydraulic roller.  Based on Chryco Psycho recommendation I run a Holley Dominator intake and couldn't be happier with it's performance. Plus it works well with my Shaker hood.  I'm using a Quickfuel 880 CFM carb with vacuum seconardies and it works perfect right out of the box.  I use a Carter stock type fuel pump and have never had any issues with fuel starvation to well over 100 MPH under full throttle.  The block is topped off with ProMaxx (formerly Patriot) aluminum heads (available thru Summit racing).  Exhaust is handled via 1-7/8" TTI headers with the TTI 3" X pipe exhaust and Dynomax Super Turbo mufflers. I'm using my original OEM 26" radiator with fan shroud and stock fan with a new fan clutch.  I'm also running a 440 source aluminum high volume water pump and housing. With this combination I have never had any issues with overheating, even on 100 days and in stop and go traffic or cruising at 70-75 MPH.  On a chassis dyno the engine recorded 556 HP to the crank and 484 HP to the rear wheels at 4850 RPM.  (We didn't run it past 4850 RPM because some idiot  didn't replace the driveshaft U-joints during the restoration (DUH!) and the car started vibrating excessively at 4800 RPM. The speed shop was sure it would dyno at at least 600 HP to the crank at 6500 RPM.  I haven't taken it back since the U joints were replaced)  I'm not using frame connectors because my car is a numbers matching car (FYI the original numbers engine is on an engine stand) and I did not want to modify the frame/unibody.  However, I do run a set of old school traction bars that came with the car (day 2 look) and they work  surprising well with the Dana 60 rear end and QA1 shocks.  My car was originally equipped with 4:10 gears but I had them swapped out for a set of Dr. Diff's custom 3:23 gears so I could drive it on the freeway.  (My car is a 4-speed) If it wasn't a matching numbers car then I would have installed subframe connectors.  Hope this helps.  Good luck with your build. 

[57Fury440]

If you go with 3/8 fuel lines, you will need to use a fuel sending unit in the tank with a 3/8" outlet.

[SilverFrost73]

I don't have near the experience that Runcharger has building engines, however I can tell you what my 440 engine build consists of and that I'm very happy with the engines excellent street manners and it still runs like a scalded ape when I get on it.  However, I can't tell you the gas mileage as I don't bother to check it.  My 440 block was bored .30 over and line bored.  I used a 440 Source 512 Stroker kit.  However, my engine builder did replace the 440 source pistons with custom Diamond pistons and rebalanced the assembly.  Initially I used the Lunati 704 cam which performed well, however  I subsequently upgraded to a custom "Bullet" hydraulic roller.  Based on Chryco Psycho recommendation I run a Holley Dominator intake and couldn't be happier with it's performance. Plus it works well with my Shaker hood.  I'm using a Quickfuel 880 CFM carb with vacuum seconardies and it works perfect right out of the box.  I use a Carter stock type fuel pump and have never had any issues with fuel starvation to well over 100 MPH under full throttle.  The block is topped off with ProMaxx (formerly Patriot) aluminum heads (available thru Summit racing).  Exhaust is handled via 1-7/8" TTI headers with the TTI 3" X pipe exhaust and Dynomax Super Turbo mufflers. I'm using my original OEM 26" radiator with fan shroud and stock fan with a new fan clutch.  I'm also running a 440 source aluminum high volume water pump and housing. With this combination I have never had any issues with overheating, even on 100 days and in stop and go traffic or cruising at 70-75 MPH.  On a chassis dyno the engine recorded 556 HP to the crank and 484 HP to the rear wheels at 4850 RPM.  (We didn't run it past 4850 RPM because some idiot  didn't replace the driveshaft U-joints during the restoration (DUH!) and the car started vibrating excessively at 4800 RPM. The speed shop was sure it would dyno at at least 600 HP to the crank at 6500 RPM.  I haven't taken it back since the U joints were replaced)  I'm not using frame connectors because my car is a numbers matching car (FYI the original numbers engine is on an engine stand) and I did not want to modify the frame/unibody.  However, I do run a set of old school traction bars that came with the car (day 2 look) and they work  surprising well with the Dana 60 rear end and QA1 shocks.  My car was originally equipped with 4:10 gears but I had them swapped out for a set of Dr. Diff's custom 3:23 gears so I could drive it on the freeway.  (My car is a 4-speed) If it wasn't a matching numbers car then I would have installed subframe connectors.  Hope this helps.  Good luck with your build. 

I appreciate you giving me all the details of your build, sounds like you did a great job of putting it all together. This is exactly the type of info I'm looking for.

Can I ask you what rockers, and stall converter you are using?

[SilverFrost73]

@57Fury440

Thank you for letting me know. 

[usraptor]

I don't have near the experience that Runcharger has building engines, however I can tell you what my 440 engine build consists of and that I'm very happy with the engines excellent street manners and it still runs like a scalded ape when I get on it.  However, I can't tell you the gas mileage as I don't bother to check it.  My 440 block was bored .30 over and line bored.  I used a 440 Source 512 Stroker kit.  However, my engine builder did replace the 440 source pistons with custom Diamond pistons and rebalanced the assembly.  Initially I used the Lunati 704 cam which performed well, however  I subsequently upgraded to a custom "Bullet" hydraulic roller.  Based on Chryco Psycho recommendation I run a Holley Dominator intake and couldn't be happier with it's performance. Plus it works well with my Shaker hood.  I'm using a Quickfuel 880 CFM carb with vacuum seconardies and it works perfect right out of the box.  I use a Carter stock type fuel pump and have never had any issues with fuel starvation to well over 100 MPH under full throttle.  The block is topped off with ProMaxx (formerly Patriot) aluminum heads (available thru Summit racing).  Exhaust is handled via 1-7/8" TTI headers with the TTI 3" X pipe exhaust and Dynomax Super Turbo mufflers. I'm using my original OEM 26" radiator with fan shroud and stock fan with a new fan clutch.  I'm also running a 440 source aluminum high volume water pump and housing. With this combination I have never had any issues with overheating, even on 100 days and in stop and go traffic or cruising at 70-75 MPH.  On a chassis dyno the engine recorded 556 HP to the crank and 484 HP to the rear wheels at 4850 RPM.  (We didn't run it past 4850 RPM because some idiot  didn't replace the driveshaft U-joints during the restoration (DUH!) and the car started vibrating excessively at 4800 RPM. The speed shop was sure it would dyno at at least 600 HP to the crank at 6500 RPM.  I haven't taken it back since the U joints were replaced)  I'm not using frame connectors because my car is a numbers matching car (FYI the original numbers engine is on an engine stand) and I did not want to modify the frame/unibody.  However, I do run a set of old school traction bars that came with the car (day 2 look) and they work  surprising well with the Dana 60 rear end and QA1 shocks.  My car was originally equipped with 4:10 gears but I had them swapped out for a set of Dr. Diff's custom 3:23 gears so I could drive it on the freeway.  (My car is a 4-speed) If it wasn't a matching numbers car then I would have installed subframe connectors.  Hope this helps.  Good luck with your build. 

I appreciate you giving me all the details of your build, sounds like you did a great job of putting it all together. This is exactly the type of info I'm looking for.

Can I ask you what rockers, and stall converter you are using?



Again, not positive but I think based on a recommendation from Chryco Psycho I used PRW SS roller tip rocker arms.  Reasonably priced, strong and well built and they have performed well.  https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pqx-3244011?rrec=true
My 'Cuda is a 4-speed so I didn't have a need for a stall converter. Good luck!
Brad

[RUNCHARGER]

It's nice to see actual dyno #'s or MPH #'s at the dragstrip.
The SD is a fine intake manifold as well as the Performer RPM.
If you do go stroker it won't be as stall sensitive as a smaller engine.
I know some of you have tons of cash but I am always conscious of dollars spent for value returned, hence my recommendation you don't need a stroker crank for a 440 combo that runs on street tires using heads that have just a bit more flow capacity than a small block Chevy head. That's why I recommend a stock stroke 440 for a street build. If you're using a 400 block then I totally agree with stroking it (the very popular 451 based 400 surprisingly has almost the same cubes as a stock 440). If you're building a big block Chevy or a real Hemi they have a lot more head flow than a big block Mopar head so you built them differently.
No way am I going to build a 512CI engine that only runs in the 11's or never races on slicks and brag about it. Although a 512 is a good combo to build with a 3 speed auto and a 2.94 rear gear for example if you build it to optimize your lowend torque, a lot cheaper and less complicated to build than a smaller engine coupled with a 6 speed.
If you're buying a new carb, replacing fuel lines and installing 1 or 2 new fuel pumps in a carb system, well that's getting close to the cost of fuel injection. These days I find it easier to tune with a screen rather than draining carb gas and changing carb parts. But I have other reasons as well, mostly to do with actually driving your car. One issue is modern fuel's propensity to boil, another is driveability on a road trip that might start at sea level and take you up a mile high mountain for instance.
I'm not saying my methods are better, I'm just explaining reasons for my recommendations.

[SilverFrost73]

@RUNCHARGER

I appreciate your opinion, and the suggestions you have made. It's all so confusing to me because there are so many different variations that have worked for so many people that I'm not sure which route to take. I don't have deep pockets and honestly, I have a hard time spending $5-6k on a rebuild. My last rebuild was on a Pontiac 400 in 1990 and it only cost me $2500 in parts because I built it myself. I was lucky because my dad owned a muffler shop, machine shop, and performance parts store for 42yrs. Mopar stuff has always been more expensive, and the cost has definitely increased.

I just want to do it right the first time and not take any shortcuts. But that doesn't mean I have money to throw at $1800+ heads, $600 carbs, $800 rods, $600 pistons, $1000 cranks, and roller cams, and lifters. It's like a chain reaction, if you buy this you have to have this and if you have that you have to have this and so on if you know what I mean? I don't have the $ to buy different intakes, carbs, cams, heads, which is why I want to go with a proven combo that works for my use, and my A/T, gearing, etc.     

Honestly, I'm not sure I want to fool around with an electric fuel pump or pumps. I like the idea of sticking with a mechanical pump for various reasons. I like your suggestion of going with FI, and the drive ability of it, but I want it to look as stock as possible. I know people in the 70s drove their cars from low to high altitude so if they did so can I. If I get sick of it, then I may upgrade to FI in the future but for right now I'm going to stick with a Carb.

I also like your idea of sticking with the cast stock crank and rods but like you said by the time you have them reconditioned and add ARP's you may as well buy a set of H-beams. I will be buying the Holley SD intake that so many have suggested, but does the SD stand for street dominator or strip dominator? 
I'll be going with the stealth heads as I can't afford the Trick Flow heads.
I still haven't been able to decide on which hydraulic flat tappet cam to use Voodoo 702 or 703. I believe you and someone else suggested the 703. I guess I'm waiting for more input from others, I'd especially like to hear from @Chryco Psycho and get his opinion.
I'm still unsure of the stall converter 2800 seems high as I'll only have 3.23 gears and don't typically drive over 65-70mph on the interstate/Hwys. I want to make sure it locks up while Hwy driving, but this is an area I know very little about.
Another concern is vacuum with that cam. I have power brakes, and while driving in town/cruising it can be stop and go a lot of times.

I value yours and the others who have given their input and recommendations for my build. I'm just an old veteran on a fixed income  that's confused on the best route to take for his build.               

[RUNCHARGER]

You've got a good handle on it. The reason I prefer the Trickflows over the Stealths is mostly due to a superior combustion chamber BUT the Stealths will be great for what you want, no need to second guess yourself.
My son ran the 703 camshaft with a 2800 stall in his offroad vehicle and it worked absolutely great. However you can use the smaller camshaft and try it initially with a stock convertor and see how you like it, then upgrade to a 2200-2500 convertor later if need be. No doubt about it, the smaller cam will pull a bit better vacuum as well.
You can use a mechanical fuel pump only, I like the electrical because you most likely will run into fuel boiling out of the carb issues making restarting take a bit longer which endangers flat tappet cams and lifters. You can use an isolator between manifold and carb to help that issue and also block off the heat crossover in the manifold.
Again my opinions only and everyone else offered great options as well, there are plenty of ways to get what you want.
The way I look at it, I've seen dead stock 375HP 440's pull high 13's at the track as long as they were tuned correctly, Everything you have mentioned will make it run better than a stock 375HP 440.
Chryco will be on as he can't pass up an engine post, sometimes it take him a day or two to fire up his computer.

[Brads70]

There are a lot of great points given. The " mission creep" thing is real in our hobby. One thing always leads to another.... Wait till you replace the dash pad! 
I hear ya in that I'm not wealthy either. I always have to watch what I spend. I do most of the work to save as much as I can.
But one point that never changes is the old saying of "speed costs money, how fast to you want to go? "
I'm not so sure your 5-6 grand will go very far. I'd say your looking at a stock rebuild with that amount? I spent around 8k and that was over 10 years ago and did most of the work myself.
Unless you have access  to equipment , around here in my neck of the woods you can pretty much count on 1k plus just to machine the block. That's any block cid is irrelevant. 
It's my understanding with those stealth heads ( 440 source) is that your basically just buying a casting as the quality of the valve seats, valves/springs/retainers is questionable? Now saying that I have zero experience with them, it's just what I've read ( many times) in various forums ?  Best practice is to buy all the parts from one manufacturer cam/lifters/springs/retainers/locks so it all rated/designed/works together sort of a thing.
Yes you could use a stock type fuel pump to save some funds. I went with electric pumps on all my builds for a few reasons . One I know they work without any drama.  With newer parts/outsourcing from China has led to many quality issues. Next would be since I used a hyd roller cams I eliminated the need for special fuel pump rods. Even the stock fuel pump set ups can be problematic and fail causing expensive repairs. Next would be cooler fuel by using a return line. Fuel never boils in the carb and easy starting when hot.  Then I use the same fuel pump on all my cars so that I only have to have one spare  that suits them all. I chose to use hyd roller cams because I did have a cam failure years ago and it was expensive to do it all again. Talk about taking the wind out of your sails! Between the oil quality issues ( zinc) and the lifter quality issues even though it's much more expensive it's a durability issue for me. The performance factor was secondary to me.  I understand not everyone shares this train of thought.

Your right about by the time you spend money to recondition the stock parts,  rods, crank, new pistons you might as well get a stroker kit. Why 512? In my way of thinking cost is the same regardless of CID so go big and build as much torque as you can afford. CID is the cheapest way to do that. 512 is a good combo , rod ratio, piston pin placement, etc... proven combo

Maybe assess the  parts you have now? What can you reuse with what you have? We all have a "want list" for most of us it comes in stages. Build a good short block and use the heads you have, and if conditions permit in the future  you can easily swap out the parts (heads, intake, headers, carb) later down the road.
Really if your just cruising to go get ice cream with the grandkids a stock 440 will shred the
stock type tires just about as easily as a build 512. So will a 318 for that matter? It's all in what your goals are?
I'm building a 71 AMC Javelin currently  and other than headers, intake, oil pan, and a roller cam, roller rockers, the rest of the 401 is bone stock. I'm not looking for all out performance per dollar spent like I was with my Challenger. Mopars have a reputation to uphold, AMC's not so much right? 

[SilverFrost73]

@RUNCHARGER
@Brads70
Once again solid advice from both of you, and I appreciate you guys taking the time to explain things to me!
You've convinced me to use an electric fuel pump! 
I'm also going to get the 703 cam and all the valve train accessories from Lunati with the exception of the roller rockers, I'm going to go with the Performance Quotient PQx rockers. (hopefully I'll have brakes with that cam)
Is there another brand of heads that you would recommend? If I have to have the Stealth's seats checked by a machine shop I may as well spend a little more on a set of heads that are bolt on ready out of the box.
I'm going to go with the Quick Fuel brawler 850 thanks for recommending that @Brads70
As for the intake, is it the street or strip dominator that I want?
I'll use the Doug's 1-7/8" headers
A Hughes or Dynamic 2400 stall converter as that's the size Lunati recommends for the 703 cam. May also have one built by a local Co.
I'm leaning towards the 440 source 512 stroker kit for the lower end, but I'm still not 100% on that.

As for parts that I already have, I have the '74 HP 440 Std block, Std cast crank, factory rods and pistons, factory oil pan, and factory timing cover. I have the complete '67 383 that's in the car which has the 516 heads and a stock 2bbl intake. The only aftermarket part that I have for it is a Weiand #7512 intake that was given to me. I was only planning to use the pulleys, mounting brackets, and valve covers off the 383 for my build. Both of the oil pans I have are dented so I will buy new, just not sure what to go with. I don't want one that hangs too low. I also have no idea what I want to do ignition wise, so if you guys have suggestions hit me with them (just remember I want it to look as stock as possible).

I know I know, so many questions!        

       

[Chryco Psycho]

The 440 Source stroker 512 kit is the best route , new rods crank & pistons for about the same cost as rebuilding the old parts but with the advantage of all new parts & extra CI .
The Holley street dominator is one of the best intakes available , it sits low but willl make similar power to the RPM & other larger / taller intakes .
As for Carb choice you have to feed 512 CI enough air , I use the Proform carbs , they really are great carbs & I use 2x the CI as a guide for size .
Trick flow heads would be my first choice for heads , but I have made serious power using well ported factory iron heads & larger valves , the Stealth heads are good value also .
I would have built you an engine as I lived very close to you 11 years ago , but I am nowhere near you now .

[SilverFrost73]

@Chryco Psycho
Thank you for chiming in and giving me your suggestions. That's a real downer that you're not close anymore. We're you in idaho?

Can you give me suggestions on ignition, will stock electronic ignition be sufficient?
Also what's your experience with the Stealths, will I have to have the seats and valves re-cut?

[Chryco Psycho]

I was just north of the 49th in Canaduh .
I usually do use the stock ignitions , for a couple of reasons , Parts store generally have parts for stock ign systems if somethings fails , & they fit properly , I always carry a spare ECU & Ballast , if you have a different ign system spare parts are expensive & & not stocked locally .
As with anything the Stealth heads will work out of the box but quality can vary & having them checked may be a benefit , the Stealths are a decent head on par with Eddy RPM but 1/2 the price .

[SilverFrost73]

@Chryco Psycho

Thanks for the advice on the ignition.
Do you know of any good machine shops that specialize in mopars around here?

[usraptor]

If you're leaning towards the 440 source or Edelbrock Performer heads, I'd urge you to first watch the below videos.  Although none of the video's are specific to a Mopar 440 the first three videos deal with the quality of the ProMaxx heads vs other "bargain" heads and he even cuts them up to review thicknesses and runners, etc.  The last video is a dyno comparison between a ProMaxx Chevy BB head and a AFR and while the AFR leads in horsepower and torque until the end of the test, in my experience the AFR heads are double the cost of the ProMaxx.  Also, if you can find it, Engine Masters recently did a head shoot out between 440 Source, Edelbrock and Trick Flow.  Unfortunately, they didn't test the ProMaxx.  The Edelbrock did better than the 440 source however the Trick Flow beat both handily.  But again if you just want a reliable cruise engine the Trick Flow heads are almost double, like AFR heads are.   Like I said before ProMaxx was formally called "Patroit" heads and had an excellent reputation.  When they sold the company the new owners changed the name and keep the old facility, and machines and most of the Patriot employees.  Like I said I've been very happy with them on my 440.  Just want you to make an informed decision.  Good luck with you choice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxLnEID_Xfc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZzudIxHY0g&list=RDCMUC4lQa0ItnkIEKYFORTgg1bQ&index=2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4op2k_k301E&list=RDCMUC4lQa0ItnkIEKYFORTgg1bQ&index=3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XYtceIw448