Hydraulic Lifter Question

[PatO]

So I'm in a bit of a quandary over 1 probably 2 sticking and maybe collapsed lifters. I have less than 400 miles on a complete professionally rebuilt 340 LA block. I started detecting a light ticking sound about 60 miles ago which would go away after the engine warmed up. After a bit it became louder and would not go away. Listening with a wood dowel on the various parts of the engine I was able to really zero in on the exhaust valve on #2 cylinder. Also wasn't sure about something more towards No. 4 or 6. I could not hear anything other than valve train noise on the drivers side. 

I'm running a Comp Cams EX 275 HL-10 Hydraulic Flat Tappet cam. It has the #822 hydraulic lifters and custom length push rods. The rocker setup is a Mancini Racing branded Harlan Sharp, shaft mounted, roller rocker setup with 1.6 arms. see picture.

So over the weekend on Saturday I warmed the car up to operating temperature and pulled it in the garage. I immediately bumped the starter a few times to get the exhaust closed on #2. Sure enough I could wiggle the rocker arm clearly enough for my wife to see and hear. I could also push the push rod down a bit. Clearly not right and I believed it confirmed my noisy lifter suspicion. I spent another minute or two bumping the starter and checking the rockers, everything else except the intake on #4 was firm and solid. I could tweak the rocker slightly and push the push rod down just slightly. I moved over the drivers side and every thing was tight. I debated on just tweaking the adjustment screw for the push rod a bit, on #2 exhaust but I wasn't sure and decided to take my time and think it through. 

So yesterday, Tuesday, I pulled the intake off so I could see everything. Camshaft lobes are good and have smooth wear patterns which was my primary worry. 

So I was just going to order a couple of replacement lifters and replace the existing ones that are a problem in #2 and number 4. I then decided to check everything one more time. So I spent a couple of minutes again and bumped the engine again. I discovered that it seems like half the hydraulic lifters have bled down partially after sitting for almost 4 days. The exhaust on #2 was still about the same and the intake on #4 was completely bled down with noticeable movement on the rocker arm and push rod.

So what is really giving me a headache, besides have issues with virtually new lifters, is adjusting the rocker arms once I've replaced the 2 offending lifters. I understand the method for adjusting the rocker arm/push rod set screws but what is giving me a headache is how to make the proper adjustment on each rocker arm when some of the lifters are still pumped up while others have bled down a bit.

Am I over thinking this? I'm assuming that I need to remove the whole rocker arm shaft so I can get enough room to pull the push rods and get the lifters out. Will the rest of the lifters bleed down a bit over the next few days?

Thanks for any thoughts on this!

[jimynick]

I'd put a dial indicator on the top of every rocker and see what kind of lift you're getting after you've run the engine to re-pump up the lifters. For 2, or more to fail together is extremely unusual and although you say the lobes "look" alright, it's much more likely that a lobe- or two are showing their wear by the increased valve lash. Have you also checked the oil pressure? I'll be interested in how this plays out. Good luck. 

[Mrbill426]

Interesting little video discussing hydraulic lifter failures.

https://youtu.be/Cn1nZFYt6Nw

[MoparLeo]

You started out saying it was "professionally" rebuilt meaning you paid someone to build it, right ?
What do they say ? Any warranty on their work ?

[chargerdon]

Interesting little video discussing hydraulic lifter failures.

https://youtu.be/Cn1nZFYt6Nw

WOW..... I find this extremely hard to believe !!   

First, hard to believe they are all remanufactured and that the molds to make new ones no longer exist  !!  Also, while he explained the problems that might exist with the remanufactured lifters collapsing, he never explained the "chatter marks" around the bottom of each of them. 

Second, Even if it is true, you would think that a Major Mfg like comp cams, or crane, or Lunati wouldnt MEASURE the inside bore and choose the appropriate new plunger that matches the right tolerence.   Just like when we bore out a cylinder to .020 or .030 and then use pistons that are the same amount larger !!!   DUH...   

Lastly, if we assume what he says is true, it is unbelievable that a reputable company like comp cams wouldn't "check" their lifters before selling them and ruining their reputation !!! Also, companys like Summit know of this problem and sell them anyways without checking them or warning their customers to check because of high percentage of "bad" lifters being sold.     I.e.  in his case he claims it took 3 sets of lifters to get one good set!!

When i had my 360 LA engine rebuilt i used Lunati brand camshaft and Lunati hydraulic lifters.   Because the cam was a high profile, i also put in Lunati dual valve springs recommended to match the cam...   Lunati's instructions were to remove the inner springs BEFORE starting the engine and to then do the 20 min break in procedure using break in oil extra high in zinc content.   I did this !!   I noticed on first start up some tapping and clicking of the valves, but, it slowly went away during the break in.   Then i reinstalled the inner valve springs.  Believe me, i did not want to do this extra 3 hours of work not to mention having to buy the tool to compress the valves while in the car !!   This car is only driven on weekends maybe 50 miles to shows... for about the first 500 miles when cold i would still get some valve ticking, but as the miles built up it quieted down.    I have no problems with any of the lifters !!

[Shane Kelley]

I had the same issue with Comp lifters. I started running the Crower "Cam Saver" lifters on engine builds and have very good luck with them. They also provide a little extra oil to the cam lobes as a added benefit.

[Brads70]

It's my understanding that there are a small hand full of companies that make lifters ? Eg Johnson lifter.....  With the chance of failure higher than I'm comfortable with is why I have use hyd roller cams in the last 3 engines I've built over the last 10 years. Not fun taking out the engine and tearing it down again due to a lifter failure . Lots of work as well as the money aspect. 

[PatO]

Thank you for the replies   

The engine is out of warranty by over a year and a half. So I'm not covered there. It's been many years since I've swapped out lifters but it is not something I'm afraid to do. I was primarily concerned about getting my zero lash correct, before setting the preload, on some lifters that are all ready pumped up and others that have bled down a bit. Perhaps by this weekend when the new lifters arrive, the ones in the motor will all have bled down a bit and I can go from there.

For the most part I understand about the decreasing quality of the products we get for our projects now. Over the 6 years it took me to complete my car I had a number of examples of poor quality parts. From the flimsy plastic T Handle shifter for my slap stick (Thanks to Roseville for an updated, much sturdier part) to the to thin copper washers for my front disc brake lines, to awkwardly manufactured motor mounts and now a couple of failing lifters. I can get it right, it just takes more time and effort than it used. Beer doesn't always relieve the frustration on some matters.

I'm going to put 2 new comp cam lifters in and adjust. After the engine is running again, if I still have a little ticking, I'll pull the valve cover and fine tune the lifter by ear. I'm shopping for an old valve cover right now to cut the top off so I can do this without such a mess. I'll probably follow the earlier advice and purchase a dial indicator and check the lift just for peace of mind. 

Thank you again.

[Scooter]

^^^ I had the same issue & bit the bullet and replaced all the lifters in my 360LA. Can be done pretty easy with a magnet on a stick and a good flashlight.

I have a new set of Promaxx aluminum heads and those same 1.6 ratio rockers sitting on a shelf in my garage right now. Just moved so I will likely install in the off season.. need to measure for the new push rods.

Keep us updated on your progress!

[Shane Kelley]

Here's the easiest way to adjust hydraulic lifters. This will take all the guesswork and mess out of the process.

You don't have to have the intake off but it will help you see what's going on if you haven't done it before.

Start with the first lobe and make sure it's not trying to open or close the valve. Basically the opposite side of the lobe.

Loosen the adjuster nut until you have some play in the push rod.

Now gently start tightening the adjuster until there is no play in the push rod but also is not pushing the lifter plunger down. Your looking for zero lash.

Once you do that tighten your rocker adjuster by 1 full turn and lock it. I do a half turn but you might get a tick depending on the lifters. 1 turn works great.

Do that for each lifter and your done

Button everything and your ready to go.

[PatO]

Success 

I had the intake manifold off so I pretty much followed Shane Kelley's advice to adjust the lifters after I replaced the 2 discussed earlier. Buttoned it up yesterday and fired it up today. Had some ticking for a couple of moments and then things got quiet, at least as far as the motor concerned. 

Pretty happy that things turned out well.  (except for the small oil leak at the corner of the intake manifold were I didn't get enough of the "Right Stuff")

Thank you again for the suggestions.

[MoparLeo]

We maybe in the beginning should have asked if he had much experience adjusting valves. In my youth most of our cars had adjustable rocker arms and flat tappet lifters. Valve adjustments were bi weekly.

[Fastmark]

Well let us know how the lifter swapping  goes for you. I've had one cam go flat years ago. It was a good used came that miced good and I installed new lifters. Two went flat right off. I have since been told thatcams and lifter establish wear patterns and don't do good when you install new ones or swap them around. And yes, most all the lifters are cheap and made by the same couple of companies. They fail pretty often.