Replacing camshaft of small block 360...oil pan question

[chargerdon]

Hi can i get away with just loosening the oil pan bolts and then dropping just the front of the pan to take off and replace the timing chain cover.   Or do i have to fully remove the oil pan and put in new gaskets?  I sure dont want any leaks later.

[Chryco Psycho]

it can be done , the banana seal is the problem , hard to compress but you can pull the corners down carefully with he bolts until the cover will go over the dowel pins & slide into place

[chargerdon]

One issue i have with this engine is that escpecially on the passenger side has what i call "valve clatter"...which increases with RPM.   Its not a valve tap but a general "clatter".   PS...I measured pre-load before removing everything and got right around .04 and .05   Lunati says between .020 and .060 is the best...so i seem to be right on.   

Ok. in performing the cam replacement, i can see that "MAYBE" the rocker shaft(s) and rockers are overly worn!!    If i take a micrometer to a rocker while its off the shaft, i get .905 from left to right but from top to bottom .948   ..   In other words the seem to have worn out of round...   Is this normal?   Some seem worse and some a little less...   the shaft seems ok.   Is this the source of my "clatter"?   Should I replace them?  and the shafts while im at it?

Anyone know what a new rocker would read?   

If so is Sealed Power an ok brand to use?

[Chryco Psycho]

First I assume you are running stock stamped steel rockers & are measuring the hole around the shaft , the hole doesn't matter & is normally oval , the only surface that matters is the load area against the bottom of the shaft .
What I have experienced in the past is when changing cams to a higher lift the pad on the tip of the rocker that rides on the valve tip can be worn & they will make noisy as they run past the lip caused by normal wear .
Other issues could be the cam brg is not installed accurately & could be restricting oil flow to the right side of the engine .

[chargerdon]

yes, they are the stock steel stamped rockers.   The valve train is getting plenty of oil...   (removing rocker covers there is a lot  laying in there and great oil pressure...minimum of 20 fully warmed up and idling, and 50-60 on the road).   

I can get a new set of Sealed Power brand from Advance auto for around $80...    PS...its amazing the spread in pricing...   Rock Auto is actually more expensive than advance for the Sealed Power and Summit is double for that brand.   

You think changing them has a good chance to quiet it down?    Is Sealed Power brand ok ? 

[Cudajason]

Hey @chargerdon ...Just wondering, are you doing this swap with the engine in the car?

If so, did you have to pull the grill out or just the rad?

Jason

[chargerdon]

Ok, im not done yet, because first attempt i had a camshaft/hydraulic lifter failure.   Lunati is standing behind their warranty...   In installing the new CAM i already had high performance dual valve springs.   Lunati "recommends" removing the inner springs until after break in do reduce stress on the new cam during break-in and then re-installing.   I did not do this, and suffered a hydraulic lifter failure and lobe wear off on the cam.    Still the other 15 lifters and lobes look perfect...so is the inner spring truely the problem, or did i have a faulty lifter?   Lunati is honoring the warranty, so on my redo not only am i going to do this, but, i also bought their springs so that they are guaranteed to match the cam. 

Here is the process.   First my car is an automatic and has a Vintage air air conditioner.

Quick answer is yes, i did it in the car... ..NOTE:  Strongly suggest you use "baggies" labeled for each type of bolt that you remove and keep them in the bags!!!   I also strongly suggest that you purchase a service manual and follow it for all of the steps... 

You will need for new gaskets, Valve Cover, Intake manifold gaskets, a "timing chain" gasket set that include the fuel pump gasket, water pump gasket, and timing chain gasket...they usually also contain the oil pan "fix" gaskets, but i didnt use that .   

Tools: you will need screwdrivers, rubber mallet hammer, socket set (including a 1 1/4 inch damper bolt socket), impact wrench, torque wrenches (inch/lb and foot/lb).   full wrench set.   Damper puller.   

1) Drain the radiator as you will need to remove it...   

2) Drain the oil and replace the filter as you will be changing oil and filter twice.

Remove your air cleaner and set aside...

3) Remove the two heater hoses from water pump and intake manifold and tie them back out of the way at the hood hinge.

4) LABEL each spark plug cable with the cylinder number, then pull them from the plugs, and pull the coil wire off of coil. 

5) Unplug the distributor from its connector (I have on mine electronic ignition so there is a two wire connector).

6) Mark the intake manifold next to the vaccum advance (to serve as a guide for close timing when you put it back in later), remove the bolt for the distributor and take distributor out along with the cap and wires.

7) disconnect and remove the coil...

disconnect the two return springs, and disconnect the Fuel throttle, the auto transmission kick down rod.    Just get them out of the way.

9) Remove the bolts for the valve covers and remove them.

10) Disconnect the two quick connect wires to the Alternator...(mark the wires with the positions on the alternator) and remove the main battery feed wire.   Remove the bolt for the adjustment arm, and the main bolt that holds the alternator in place and remove the alternator.

11)  Disconnect the wire that goes to the temperature sending unit, wire to automatic choke, and wire to the oil pressure sending unit.   You should now be able to easily pull the wiring harness back out of the way.

12)  Remove the top radiator hose.     

12) Remove the bolts holding your fan blade and carefully remove the fan without scraping the radiator.   

13) Remove the two bolts holding the power steering pump in place and then remove its belt and put the power steering pump out of the way down to the right lower side of engine bay.   DO NOT REMOVE THE POWER STEERING HOSES.  Now remove the fan belt.

14) Remove the lower radiator hose from the radiator, I left the hose itself attached to the water pump.    Then remove one of the two auto transmission fluid lines from the radiator.   I put a plastic bag over it with a couple of tight rubber bands to keep tranny fluid seepage to a minimum.   Then repeated for the second line to radiator. 

15) Remove the four bolts holding the radiator and carefully remove it...taking care not to damage any fins.

16) At this point i removed the four bolts holding the Vintage Air compressor from its bracket and lowered the compressor with its hoses attached down to near the bottom of the passenger side of the engine. 

17) Remove the Vintage Air bracket bolts and remove the bracket. 

18) Disconnect the fuel line from the carburetor and tie it back to the hood hinge.  Now remove the 12 bolts (i have an edelbrock air gap intake manifold) holding the intake manifold in place.   It will probably be stuck to the block, so use a RUBBER hammer and tap it in several places to break it loose and remove the intake manifold along with the carburator.   I also used a small block of wood under the front right corner and tapped it with the rubber mallet.   Remove the intake manifold and set aside. 

19)  Remove the bolts holding the water pump in place.   WARNING there are two bolts holding the water pump that go into the water jacket of the block...water WILL come out...  I used a plastic bottle to catch the water as i removed each of those two bolts. 

20) Tap your water pump with the rubber mallet until it breaks loose and then remove it...   

21) Remove the six bolts that hold the fan belt pulley.. and remove the pulley.  Next you will need to remove the damper...So, you will need a 1 1/4 inch socket and an impact wrench to break the crankshaft bolt free...  Remove it.     You will then need a damper pulley to pull the damper off...  If you dont have one...borrow from autozone.   Bolt it to the damper and remove the damper.  With puller mine came off fairly easily.

22) Remove the two bolts holding the fuel pump and remove it and allow it to drop down in the engine compartment.   No need to remove the fuel lines from it.   

23) Now remove only the front most oil pan bolts that screw UP into the timing chain cover.   The service manual says to loosen all of the pan bolts, but, happily i did NOT HAVE TO DO THIS.   

24) Remove all of the remaining bolts from the timing chain cover and remove it.   Again use rubber mallot to break it free.   As you remove it, the front most portion of the oil pan gasket will probably rip away...   Don't panic...   New Timing chain gasket kits include a "fixer portion".   I didn't use those either...  I just used Permatex "The Right Stuff" gasket maker to fill in instead. 

AT SOME POINT YOU WILL HAVE TO CLEAN ALL GASKET MATERIAL STUCK TO ALL OF THE COVERS AND GET THEIR SURFACE CLEAN.   BE CAREFUL NOT TO DAMAGE ANY SURFACE...   i USED A PAINT SCRAPER AND RAZOR BLADES TO GET IT ALL OFF AND THEN POLISHED EACH SURFACE WITH A SCOTCH BRITE PAD!!!    THIS PART IS A PAIN !! 

25) Remove the lower oil slinger from the crank shaft.   TAKE NOTE OF THE DIRECTION OF IT.   

26) Note:  Before removing the timing chain, check it for stretch...   there are instructions in the service manual for this.   In my case i knew it had been replaced less than 4,000 miles before so i was going to reuse it. !!   

27) Remove the bolt holding the Camshaft sprocket, the fuel pump eccentric, and washer.   

28) Slide both the bottom sprocket and top chain sprockets off together to get them off...you might have to tap each of them with your rubber mallet.  Set aside the chain and both sprockets.

29) Remove the three bolts holding the thrust plate, and the oil slinger and remove.   Note the thrust plate direction of the oil slot.  Remember it.  Note how the oil slosher fits in the thrust plate.

30) Now remove the oil pump gear from the rear of the camshaft..   There is a nice slot in the top you can put a screwdriver in and turn and its beveled gear will rise enough to be able to lift it out.   There are no bolts holding it. 

31) Now on each engine bank, remove the 5 bolts holding the rocker shaft with its rockers.   I only turned each bolt a few turns over and over, so as to not allow the springs to put undo pressure on the shaft.   Remove the shaft and rockers as an assembly...Take note of which one goes on each side of the engine..  Do not remove the rockers from the shaft.   

32) Remove each of the pushrods at this time.   It is a decent idea to put them into a container so that each one can go back into its original spot..   Check each one on a flat surface to insure none are bent and examine each for wear.   (mine were fine).

33) using your fingers push each hydraulic lifter out of its bore...  they should come out easily...  and feel "tight" as you pull them out.
YOU WILL NOT BE RE-USING them as it is always recommended that new lifters be used with a new camshaft.   Still examine each for wear so that if there is a problem with a housing you will have noted it. 

31) Since i had Vintage Air air conditioning i was able to remove to clamps that hold the lines and tilt the condenser up at the battery side enough to give clearance to remove the camshaft.     

32)  I put a large bolt into the end of the camshaft and using a screwdriver against the lobes carefully pushed the camhaft out until its journals cleared the bearings.   Then  CAREFULLY remove the old cam...simply by pulling it out with the bolt...making sure that each journal went thru the bearings without nicking them!  its a good idea to hold the end from dropping as you do this.   You will probably have to turn it some to get each lope thru the 5 bearings. 

WHEW  OK Camshaft now out...     Ill post the installation in another post !!

Key points are that i did NOT have to remove the fuel lines from the fuel pump, nor the power steering hoses from its pump...and happily did not have to evacuate the Vintage Air system...left all of its lines intact. 

[Chryco Psycho]

Sorry the cam wiped , you should try Shanes trick of polishing the bottom of the lifters to a shine with very fine wet sandpaper before installing them 

[Cudajason]

Thank you for the very detailed response.

Sorry to hear that you wiped the cam...that sucks and is my biggest fear in doing this.

I am going to try @Shane Kelley 's trick of polishing the lifers as @Chryco Psycho mentioed.

Have you made any more progress in this?

Jason

[chargerdon]

Yes...it is 95% finished.   First Lunati stood behind their warranty and replaced the cam and lifters.   I spoke with their tech support for about a half hour and came to the following conclusions..   

First, I still believe that i got a defective Hydraulic lifter that broke and wiped out the cam lope.  I believe this because the other 15 lifters and cam lobes all looked good.    However, twice is enough so i made the following changes doing it the second time just in case.

1) Lunati tech support says that Mopar usually matches their cams with stiffer/stronger springs than are necessary.   Since mine were Mopar Performance springs (from when i had the Mopar performance 508 cam in) i decided to spend the extra money and buy the Lunati brand valve dual springs that they recommend with the 703 Camshaft.   The Lunati tech did not say that it was mandatory..but..not wanting to do this a third time...   I swapped to their valve springs.

2) Since i had to replace the springs, i followed Lunati's advice and ONLY installed the outer spring for break-in.   PS..The tool i used was Proform 67460 from summit.   It works well on the mopar small block engines.  I saw a new tool on You tube where you put it on the retainer and hit with a hammer...one or two hard blows and the Keepers come off and stay inside this tool.   Then when putting the keepers/locks in you again hit it with a hammer...   Hitting new retainers with a hammer had me squeemish...so i did it the old way...compressing the springs,..pull the keepers off by hand and then reversing the procedure to reinstall.   

3) I had used NAPA Premium 10-40 engine oil and Rislone ZDDP additive...the first time for break-in.  Lunati says they don't like that for break-in, and suggested using Joe Gibbs DRIVEN 10-40 break in oil.   None locally here so bought from Summit...7.99 a quart...quite reasonable... 

I completed the swap and did the break-in following their procedure.   Sounded much better this time...   Then did the ugly job of removing the springs again and putting in the inner springs with the outers...   Started her up and it sounds extremely good.     

I also put in new rocker shafts and rockers...  I did this because of the valve clatter noise i had... I bought one new rocker to start and measured (the shaft hole) and compared to my old ones...Old ones had worn some. .04-.06  SO decided to replace.   Used Sealed Power brand...  You get what you pay for ???    In this case Summit for same brand and part numbers wanted $7.99 for each rocker ..16x8=$128...    Same brand and part number from Rock Auto was $4.17 for the rights and $5.80 for the lefts...  plus $7 shipping...  $86.40.    Advance Auto had the same Sealed Power brand for a total of $52 free shipping with a 25% coupon...   Figure that one out !!   

One big point on installing...   The Timing chain cover sits on top of the last inch of the oil pan...   The oil pan gasket will tear no matter how careful you are when you remove the cover.   There are kits that have a piece of gasket to replace the broken gasket.   I tried doing this and it was an absolute bear to get in place without pushing out the pan half moon gasket.   Then compressing it down to get the bolts all in was a bear...had to try two times and failed !!!!!      SOOOO   i instead used no pan gasket and used Permatex "The right stuff" gasket maker instead......expensive stuff...but made installing the timing chain cover soooo much easier...   It doesn't leak...It is Great Right Stuff !!   

PS...i said im 95% done...   One problem i have is that i have a fairly loud warbling fan belt noise...   This is due in my opinion to the fact that i have a Vintage Air air conditioner...   Their bracket to hold the compressor has no adjustment, so the compressor sits out a little further than it should to get the belt to line up perfectly.   I have used a shim on the fan pulley, but, the alternator sits in a hair in too far..it too bolts to the Vintage Air compressor bracket with no adjustment..   This noise was there before the cam swap also.   Tomorrow i'm going to adjust the alternator by grinding about and 1/8 inch off of the forward "ear" to try to get it to line up better.   

So, yes, my swap is now successful...and i do LOVE that Lunati 703 cam...   with it i now have plenty of vacuum to operate the power brakes, idles so much better than the Mopar 508 and has probably 95% of the power in the street powerband.  Its also smooth off of idle and throttle response...   LOVE IT !!

Hope this helps !!

[Cudajason]

thanks again for the very detailed post!

Glad to hear you like the cam.  I am going with the 702...hoping for the same results, good low end torque and lots of vacuum.  I would like to go back to power breaks.

Jason

[chargerdon]

my 703 is a little hotter than the 702...but...it makes plenty of vacuum for the power brakes.   Tested by pumping brakes at idle 6 times in a row and it still had assist.   

[Chryco Psycho]

Sounds like a great result swapping in the 703 

[chargerdon]

Very Happy with it...  a LOT of work...But well worth it...   Now my wife can sit in the car and not have her teeth rattled out !!   

Best of all is i didn't lose the deep cam idle sound...   I need to stand behind it and record about 20 seconds, with that cam and the flowmaster 40's, its sweet music..