5.9 Magnum Machine Shop Quotes....thoughts?

[kawahonda]

Hi guys,

My engine builder told me to go out and get some quotes for a short block 408 assembly. I already have what appears to be a very nice 5.9 core that looked very good during disassembly.

My first quote from probably one of the most well known shops in my area is as followed:

Degrease Block: $75
Bore V/8 w/ plate: $295
Resurface Block (Square): $220
Line Hone: $150
Clearance Block for stroker: $175
Assy 8 Con Rods: $70
Install Cam brg: $40
Install soft plugs: $30
Polish and Chamfer crankshaft: $45
Assembly V/8 Shortblock: $500
Gap piston rings: $50
Shop supplies/environmental fees: $25
Scat stroker kit (cast crank w/ forged pistons): $1500

=$3,365

This seems a bit much according to my engine builder by several hundred. Basically, you can buy a stroker 408 short block for slightly cheaper. What do you guys think?

My builder said to contact another guy (the one that he uses) who is less known, but does super good work and he's had some work done for him--he actually calls his shop a "rebabbitting" shop. I just got off the phone with him, and he sounded a bit like he was in a hurry, and wasn't able to bid on it until I bring it down to him. So my next option is to load the block in the car and take it down to him. He's "likely" cheaper, but there's no guarantee, and I feel like if I'm going through the hassle to bring the block down to him then I'll wind up leaving it with him and going with him for the work.

[MoparLeo]

You can't get a real quote from anyone without an inspection. What might look "good" to someone might not Be good when inspected and measured by someone who has a more technical eye and experience. Remember that "the quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten" Value is more important than price.  Ask for references from whoever you are considering. A quality shop will be proud of their work and have many happy customers. Talk to past customers if possible. Just like shopping for a Dentist or Dr. You don't really want the cheapest guy do you ?

[RUNCHARGER]

Those prices don't seem out of line at all.

[kawahonda]

Don't stroker cranks already come "chamfered"?

btw, that's a cash-only price. If I pay with a card, I add 8% (I think).

I want to pay for good honest work. To be fair, that kind of was a "ballpark" figure from him when I went down to chat with him. He's a cool dude, I like him a lot. He's not a Mopar guy..he's an everything guy. One of those machinists that could probably tell you about every engine.

What if my block doesn't need "boring"? Does that $295 charge get wiped? Or is he doing that to dead-center the bores?

Sorry, just a lot I don't know about this type of thing. I chose to drive 2 hours away to get a magnum 5.9 block. My engine builder came over and tore it down with me, and he was very impressed with the condition of EVERYTHING. So it makes me scratch my head to see a $3365 bill with a 408 short block can be ordered for $2800 + $100 shipping. I guess I thought it was cheaper to do the scavenger hunting and to supply my own block. To be honest, it would be a $3365 + 250 (how much I paid for a really good complete 5.9 engine) would be what I would have into it just for the short block.

And as you guys know, the costs just go up from there. Finding 340 "exterior" components (repro is fine), plus a set of worked EQ heads.....I may be in this for an easy $5500 when all said and done. I kinda was expecting 4000-5000 all said and done.

[RUNCHARGER]

The reason he would bore it is to control your piston clearances and the straightness and roundness of the bores. You don't really need to deck it or align hone it (without checking it anyway) and those operations probably aren't included in the "crate" engine. The polish and chamfer of the crank had me wondering too however he may have experience with these cranks and maybe they don't have the oil holes chamfered as delivered. Your "crate engine wouldn't have this done either.
Does the guy have a good local rep? I really prefer talking to the guy that does the work rather than an internet salesman 15 hours away.

[jimynick]

Let's look at it this way; you're paying to install the cam bearings, frost and other Welch plugs, to mount the pistons to the rods, clean/polish/chamfer the crank, clearance for the stroker, gap the rings, so what the hell is left to justify $500 to "assemble" the short block?! As for the clearance issue, it may not even need any clearancing as some strokers clear in a Mopar block as is! Line hone- why not install the crank, torque the mains to spec and see how it turns before getting out the line hone, which by the way, can cause loose timing chains and attending timing stability, as you're moving the crank and cam closer to each other. finally, don't expect the first guy to send you to a second guy who'll make the first gut look bad. Just sayin' Good luck 

[kawahonda]

I sat down in the office with the actual builder...the top dawg...he's old school, and had to quickly type that up for me after I asked for a quote.

My feeling (and my engine builder's feeling) is that the quote seems "a little high". Maybe it will, maybe it won't need what's quoted, but what's quoted is what I am liable to pay if I go through with this. Basically, I shouldn't assume that maybe some things will be cheaper than anticipated when I drop it off. He kinda wanted me to pay the extra $900 on top for the valve train (roller rockers, custom ground cam, chain, etc) so that the cam can be installed when I get it back. He talked about just letting him do the EQ heads and the port work, and then throwing it on the dyno to assure it's all rough'n'ready and turn-key...which is another $800. I basically left with a lot of good options, albiet all pretty expensive for what I thought was going to be a cheap 408 stroker build!

He's an awesome guy...no doubt I'd trust this guy completely.

But I wonder if "the other guy" that didn't really say much that I called would be more mindful in the estimations on what's actually needed vs what's not if I just showed up with the block in the back of my truck, and to get a more accurate feel.

So now you guys know where I'm at....

I need to basically pick and choose. First guy....(quote above), lots of A+++ reviews, the top-dawg......or the second guy.....great reviews, just not much, and recommended by my engine builder....

The feeling from my engine builder is that the first guy's quote is a "few hundred too much". Good comments Runcharger about the "crate" 408 kits......there's probably some things that were not done.

This is meant to be a fun engine that will mimic the 340 (98%) that should last 100k miles. It's not meant to be the life-long engine for the car. The 340 is the life-long engine for the car....I'm more excited to "refurbish" that once it's out...

Speaking of which....the "first guy" said he would pull the engine and bag and tag it. Don't clean it. Don't paint it. Just bag it up. He knows something about mopars.....but honestly...I WANT to get it back to 100% new shape just like from the factory....sitting on an engine stand in my garage...and then bag and tag it! Whether it's in the car or not, a perfectly restored original non-rebuild but cleaned/painted 340 sitting on a stand is a really cool thing.....

[Chryco Psycho]

It may take a lot longer than you think to get 100k miles on it !!

[MoparLeo]

I see a little back pedaling here. The point was that in order to get a good estimate, you need to have it inspected. Analogy. A doctor has to due a physical and blood work to find out about your health. Not a phone call.  As with anything else that you do before you shop , you must educate yourself on what you are shopping for. It is usually preferred by the person doing the engine work to disassemble it himself. He knows the actual condition of all the parts, any obvious problems that would be harder to spot in a pile of parts and he has the proper tools and knowledge to not damage anything when disassembling the engine. And by the way if you really want to have your engine to act like a 340, know that it is the same stroke as a 318 not a 360 (5.9). The 340 is known as a high rpm motor not a torque motor.  Torque is what moves you down the track, h.p. is how far you will go. Strokers add torque to the low end. I f you do get a 340 be sure to check the bore size and sonic check for core shift before you lay down the bucks. People seem to think that "340" means 3 times the price. An educated guess requires an education on the subject.  Knowledge is power. Now you can hit me..

[gzig5]

Most of the off the shelf stroker kits need a .030 over bore for the pistons.  That's SOP.  If your bore don't require it and you don't want to do it, expect to pay more for special pistons.

The block doesn't need to be clearanced for a standard kit.  H-beam rods may require it depending on fasteners.  The small clearance that may be required should be less than quoted.

Line hone may or may not be needed.  Can't tell until it is inspected.  I think you got a worse case type quote which is what I would want for something done sight unseen.

Other than that, I don't think the prices are out of line.  Engines don't assemble themselves and it takes time to do it correctly and check clearances along the way, not just bolt it together.  You are paying for that experience and whatever warranty the builder provides, if any.  Good work and peace of mind costs money. 
BTW...who put together that $2800 short block and how careful were they?  I don't think I've never seen one that cheap.  Sometimes you do get what you pay for.

[kawahonda]

Thanks. Maybe I'll drop a quick email to him to kinda inquire if this is a worst-case quote being sight-unseen, get some confirmation, then drop the F$*@er off!

-Nash

[kawahonda]

His response:

"Line hone, surface deck, balance should always be done on performance engines. Clearance is only when/if needed."

[RUNCHARGER]

IMO: A line hone should only be done when needed, he says deck surface but is not saying he is going to square them. It is starting to sound like he wants to pay for his equipment. I always check the main bearings that come out, they are a good indication whether it might need a line hone, I've never had one done in 45 years of playing with Mopars.

[kawahonda]

Like I thought before........"a little too expensive". Not blasphemy, but seems a little too much.......

Glad I asked if that's min or max price..it sounds like it's near his max price from his email.

I may go to the rebabitting place and try my luck there.

[nsmall]

I would go with the guy who backs up what they build.  If one guy has your back and he is $400 more and you are more confident with him, I would pick him.