And They Wonder Why I Hate California

[BIGSHCLUNK]

We've had many discussions among the crew over here. Business owners, law enforcement, are just among a few of my circle.  The civil war is coming my friends, not next month or next year, but its coming. That shit in the 1860's will look like a school yard scrap. 

[HP_Cuda]

Let's calm the waters on the civil war discussion.

I'll remind you that there were about equal amount of deaths from the Civil War to WW2. A civil war which derives the same amount of deaths as a World War is saying something.

What we really need is to find the sensible moderates on either side to actually get things done in Washington instead of increasingly become more polarized. If we lived through the Cold War we can live through this.

[YellowThumper]

Let's calm the waters on the civil war discussion.

I'll remind you that there were about equal amount of deaths from the Civil War to WW2. A civil war which derives the same amount of deaths as a World War is saying something.

What we really need is to find the sensible moderates on either side to actually get things done in Washington instead of increasingly become more polarized. If we lived through the Cold War we can live through this.

Agreed and thank you.
Comparisons to civil wars and previous genocide does nothing but minimize their actual mass destruction of lives.
This is politics and politics only. Vote them in or vote them out. That power still remains with the majority. Every 2 years is another election cycle to bring in new or kick out old.
Systems will fail and then change will be forced because of it. Our entire legislative system is and always has been reactionary. Never preemptive

Greece is learning and living this now. European Brexit is another result of this same ideology. Venezuela is another that has failed.

In keeping this a neutral discussion because this is an Ebody forum...
Polarization is the key word.
IMHOP the only reason Mr. T was elected is to combat the far left. For common middle grounds to be met there has to be equally opposing sides. Both sides do have merit. We as a great country should provide the basics for it's people. Yet with this there are limits that have to exist in order for "help" to be sustainable.  Now the far right has been forced to take the left down at the knees to stop lefts momentum.
Neither are correct but are necessary to find middle grounds.

[jamesroney]

Let's calm the waters on the civil war discussion.

I'll remind you that there were about equal amount of deaths from the Civil War to WW2. A civil war which derives the same amount of deaths as a World War is saying something.

What we really need is to find the sensible moderates on either side to actually get things done in Washington instead of increasingly become more polarized. If we lived through the Cold War we can live through this.

"Equal amount of deaths?"

US Civil War: 618,222 soldiers + 50,000 civilians =      668,222.
WW2: 21,000,000 soldiers + 29,000,000 civilians = 60,000,000.

Let's keep things in proportion...

[JS29]

We were tough that more American solders were killed in the civil war than any war in our history. than I said to the teacher, every solder killed in that war was American!     

[HP_Cuda]

Actually the World War caused even less US deaths than the US Civil War so that is actually helping my argument. Thank you!

United States    416,800    418,500
https://www.nationalww2museum.org/students-teachers/student-resources/research-starters/research-starters-worldwide-deaths-world-war

[JS29]

@HP_Cuda  Your welcome, And might i just add, the US Civil war was started over states rights. Slavery was not brought in the equation until the emancipation proclamation in 1863. Had to pound that into a youngster's head because his high-school teacher said different.     

[dodj]

Well, I'm Canadian so cut me a little slack, but I thought the American civil war was all about slavery...wanting to keep it or get rid of it.. 

[70 Challenger Lover]

The history books today say it was solely about slavery but the history books I read in school said it was actually a war over state rights. That southern states didn't like being told how they would live so they tried to pull away from the union which of course the northern states objected to. I think the issue of slavery was sort of a "final straw." I think over the decades, the story slowly changed to reflect that the victor was fighting a noble cause against evil and oppression.

If you think about it logically, it doesn't really make sense that the war was solely over slavery as history books would have you believe today. I simply cannot see so many men from the north willing to sacrifice their lives to fight for the rights of others whom they didn't even treat as equals back then. Willing in some cases to kill their own kin fighting on the other side. Remember these were the same people who agreed with all the other states only 80 years earlier in saying that a black person was only worth 3/5 of a human being and felt it necessary to state that in the constitution. These "noble" men from the north didn't even believe that their white women, mothers and children of theirs, should vote or own property. No, I find it very hard to accept that the real truth is tens of thousands of noble northerners heroically marched off willingly to their deaths simply to fight for the rights of others who were different from them. Hell, during WW2, Americans saw worldwide oppression on the rise, saw innocents being enslaved and murdered yet they wanted no part of that war. They were content to stand off to the side and watch. It was only after we were brutally attacked at Pearl Harbor that they had the desire to get involved. Even then it was about revenge, not about fighting for others. That same attitude exists today sadly. Only now they say it's because the world doesn't want a policeman. Convenient excuse for not standing up for others who need it.

I do believe a real war is being waged and hopefully it will never involve the kind of violence seen in the past. I think it's a fair comparison though because like the 1860s, we are in a very divided country with even family members disowning each other over political viewpoints. I personally think it's important to bring up stuff like the civil war. When we forget historical mistakes or rewrite the truth to tell a BS story, it invites us to someday repeat those mistakes.

[JS29]

Lincoln new he was loosing the war, so he thought by freeing the slaves as part of the war would get the slaves to fight for the union. thus more man power. 

[YellowThumper]

Lincoln new he was loosing the war, so he thought by freeing the slaves as part of the war would get the slaves to fight for the union. thus more man power. 

Exactly correct from my readings.

[torredcuda]

Also northern states had slaves owners not just southeners.

[YellowThumper]

Also northern states had slaves owners not just southeners.

Yes but the percentage differences were astounding. All based on agriculture requirements.

[JS29]

Also northern states had slaves owners not just southeners.

Yes but the percentage differences were astounding. All based on agriculture requirements.

Add to the equation housing, feeding, clothing during the winter. No crops to tend to, fields frozen and blanketed in snow. Here in New York was 90% dairy farms at that time. 

[HP2]

I used to have a part time job doing political phone surveys. We often called CA during these surveys. Despite the popular opinion that CA is a cesspool of liberal utopians, I found a pretty even split of liberal, centric, and conservative opinions in these surveys that were conducted throughout the state. I did notice, however, that the liberal opinions were very tightly held and often would not listen to a full question that did not align with their mantra and they were concentrated in the most urban areas on the coast.  Most centrists and conservatives wanted to listen to questions and options before proceeding. If CA wants to change its direction, they simply need to mobilize the voters to do so.

Regarding being at war, yes I'd agree that we are. However, I'd also advise extreme caution about saying its  a liberal/conservative, Democrat/Republican or even Socialist/Capitalist mantra. We are at war with unseen oligarchs that control financial systems throughout the world.  To them, all the confusion around the former three issues allow them to quietly change laws that enable them financial freedom while creating new ways to drain the rest of us while we all squabble about the latest politics of the day. We are falling for it hook, line, and sinker. ALL politicians are guilty of it regardless of party. In my lifetime, they all have done this. All of them. 5 republicans and 4 Democrats have all passed legislation that reduced financial oversight and created unregulated market tools that have slowly and quietly changed the core fabric of the United States financial systems that have brought us to the situation we are in today.