I've had a few requests for pics of my current project, but it's not an E body.
RM23N0G217270
In the mid 1990's, a friend had several old cars parked out behind his place. This 1970 Road Runner was one of them. There was a variety of vehicles there, some 1950's Ford cars, a 1948 Chevy half ton pickup, I think a 60's Ford Falcon, and my friends toy which was a 1969 Buick Special, among other vehicles that I don't remember.
In 1998, I was looking for a vehicle to build, and checked with my friend to see if he had anything available. The best candidate that he could let go of was the 1948 Chevy half ton pickup. It was still original with it's babbitt bearing inline 6 cylinder engine and enclosed driveshaft. I figured I could drop a Chevy 350 crate engine into it and turn it into a daily driver. He knew another guy that had a bunch of old vehicles out behind his workshop though, so we went to see if anything was available over there. That guy had a 1970 Challenger available, and he wanted it gone because he was moving his business and couldn't take all the cars with him. I ended up bringing the Challenger home.
For more info on the Challenger, check out this thread. https://forum.e-bodies.org/your-restoration-project/10/tav-1970-challenger/704/
After having the Challenger for about a year and learning about Mopars, This 1970 Road Runner parked out behind my friends place started to catch my eye. Like most cars that sit out in a field, it was in rough shape. It was missing the drivers window, and years of rain and snow had rotted some pretty big holes in the floor, but the air grabber hood had a 440 emblem between the hood mounted turn signals, and I figured anything could be fixed if you worked at it hard enough. There was a big block engine under the hood, and more parts inside the trunk (which was also rusted through).
I asked my friend about it, and he said that it wasn't available, he was just holding on to it for someone. He'd known the car for a long time, and it belonged to the same guy that had owned my Challenger. The Road Runner was special to the owner though because he'd had it since he was 18, and there was no way he'd want to let go of it. Doing the math, I'd guess he'd probably had it since the mid to late 1970's, but it had been sitting here for years. Being young, the owner had ran it hard. My friend told me that he'd helped the guy swap engines in a barn when the original engine blew. The 440 with auto trans and the air grabber hood had come off a copper colored 1970 GTX. This auto trans had a B&M racing shifter awkwardly sticking through the manual transmission shifter hole. The car was originally a Plum Crazy 383 four speed manual trans Road Runner with white interior. He said the original engine was probably still sitting in the barn where they'd left it all those years ago. He'd have to check sometime. It would need rebuilt of course.
The Road Runner wasn't going anywhere, but I found a 1970 'Cuda and brought that home.
Moving ahead to the fall of 2004. I had loaned some money to my friend, and the owner of the Road Runner also owed my friend some money, so to make everything even, I ended up with the Road Runner. He said come and get it, so I went and got it. Unfortunately, the original 383 engine was nowhere to be found.
I was having fun building the 70 'Cuda (maybe I'll make a post about that later), and I was pretty clearly an E body guy by that point, but the Road Runner seemed like an OK thing to have, so I parked it in the yard thinking that I'd eventually either build it or sell it.
After getting it home, I checked the engine numbers to see what I really had, and it turned out to be a 400 cubic inch engine. It looks like that GTX already had an engine swap before the boys got to it.
Here's some pics from November 2004 when I brought it home.
Your killing me here..... one of my top 5 favorites ! :congrats:
:iagree:
I'm 70 RR fan too. Never owned owned one, but hope to someday.
Go on Paul Harvey...
definitely one of my favorite Mopar's also.
July 2005
My neighbor down the road has a 1973 Challenger. It was his first car, and he's had it forever. His dad bought it for him. He doesn't have a very high opinion of the car, but he keeps it for sentimental reasons. It's basically rotting into the ground. He's not very interested in ever fixing it, but he also refuses to sell it.
He was having some problems with code enforcement for having to much junk in his yard. Knowing that I was playing with old Mopars, he came to tell me that he had 340 engine with a 727 trans attached (not from his car), and it was headed to the scrap yard unless I wanted it. I went right over and hauled it home. I wanted the small block 727 for my Challenger, and figured it wouldn't hurt to have a spare 340 laying around since it was free. Out of curiosity, I decoded the numbers to see what it was out of. I don't recall exactly at the moment, but I think the engine & trans matched each other and were out of a 1971 vehicle.
Not long afterward, I received a phone call from another old friend who is an engine builder. He was looking for a 340 block, and was having trouble finding one to build. I happened to have the one my neighbor gave me, and he asked me what I wanted for it. Well, I have this 70 Road Runner here, and I guess it's going to need an engine at some point. It's originally a 383 car. He had some 383 blocks that were buildable. He said he'd pick one out, build it to stock 383 Magnum specifications for me, and swap straight across if I'd drive the 340 block up to him (Florida to Kansas, so it was quite a drive). DEAL!
His shop helper painted it Chevy orange instead of Mopar orange though. :barf: Oh well, I can repaint it.
On the way home, I stopped by a Mopar junkyard and bought a 1970 aluminum bellhousing and a 4 speed manual transmission to go with it. Seemed like good things to round up into a pile.
After arriving home, I checked all the numbers on the new engine & trans. By some amazing coincidence, both were from 1970 cars built in St. Louis, just like my Road Runner. Judging by the VINs, they must have both been built several months before my Road Runner, but I figured that's about as close as I could possibly get to having the right stuff for the car.
September 2006
Like I said, I'm an E body guy. This B body is just going to sit around for a while.
I'm an E Body guy and this sits in my shop today....
December 2007
Time to move the Road Runner off the grass and into a different part of the yard with gravel.
I mounted some old tires onto a set of Crager unilug wheels that I had laying around. I needed something that would hold air for at least half an hour or so, and the car would look better with matching wheels.
Man these lug nuts are really stuck. OH, they're still the original left hand threaded lugs.
While I've got it jacked up, is the Sure Grip unit any good. No, it's not.
I did manage to get it moved over to the other part of the yard.
I also managed to round up an air grabber dash switch & vacuum canister since they didn't install any of that during the hood swap.
I traded the 440 Air Grabber air cleaner stuff for 383 Air Grabber air cleaner stuff.
I got a factory tinted drivers window out of a junkyard to replace the one I was missing.
Hardtop (23) door glass is different than Coupe (21) door glass. Something to do with the B pillar I suppose.
I had a factory Go-Wing leftover from my 'Cuda build, and checked the Road Runner trunk lid to see if it had spoiler cutouts. Yep, the Go-Wing was optional on Road Runners built after Jan 1st 1970. This car was built in April, so the trunk lid was ready. I ordered a pair of reproduction spoiler brackets, and set the Go-Wing in the back seat with the other new parts.
Still not quite sure if I was ever going to actually build this car, but it made sense to round up all the parts because whoever did build it would want them.
February 2013
Did I mention that I'm an E body guy? Still sitting...
It had been over 5 years since I even took a picture of the car.
In the meantime, I got married, bought a house or three, etc. etc...
August 2013
Ok, the Road Runner has gotten really dirty from never washing it. This is what 9 years without a bath looks like.
I really should do something with this soon. Maybe I should sell it?
March 2015
Ok, it's finally time to do something with this Road Runner.
I aired up the tires, loaded it up on a trailer, hauled it to a local car show to put the word out, and parked it by the highway with "For Sale" written on the windshield.
I also cleaned up the engine and applied the Mopar orange paint. (That's my 70 'Cuda in the photo with the engine.)
It was for sale for a few weeks. Some people stopped by, but no serious offers, just a guy who wanted to take it off my hands for dirt cheap so that he could rat rod it.
It had been a few years since I spent much time working on cars, and this was kind of fun. I had some money in the bank and an empty space in the garage. I decided to build the car and keep it. I don't like selling cars, it's more fun to keep them.
I removed the Air Grabber hood, and pulled the 400 engine with 727 trans.
About a week later, someone came by who was seriously interested. He has a Lemon Twist 1970 GTX with a 440 four barrel. He's had it since the early 70's. He's the second owner, but it's a northern car and really rusted out bad. It's rusted enough that the body is sagging and holding the doors closed. He wants to find a good body to fix his car with. To late, I'm keeping this one. He gave me his contact info in case I changed my mind. I visit with him occasionally. He's getting pretty old, I hope he can build his car someday.
August 2015
Project Analysis. This car was rusty when I got it, and sitting around all those years didn't help it any.
It had the typical B body rust at the lower corners of the rear window, and that rusted out the trunk floor. Need new package tray, all the window corner pieces, lower rear window channel, filler panel, trunk floor, and rear crossmember.
The trunk lid itself was also pretty rusty at the rear lip. This is a one year only Plymouth B body trunk lid, and they're getting sort of hard to find. There was also a mid year change for the spoiler cut outs, so when you do find one, there's about a 40/60 chance it's the wrong one. Luckily, I knew where to find one, but it was 5 states away. I drove to get it. It was dented pretty good, but repairable, and it wasn't rusty at all. This is a part that they need to start making reproductions of.
It had the typical lower quarter panel rust. Need new quarter panels, outer wheel wells, and trunk extensions for both sides.
It had the floor rusted through from not having a window all those years. Need new full floor & driver's rear seat footwell.
The battery tray was rusted. Need one of those.
The bottom of the Air Grabber hood had also gotten pretty rusty, so I ordered a new one of those also. Even though the Air Grabber isn't original to the car, it's an option I want to keep.
There was also some metal that needed replaced due to a previous accident. The car had been hit behind the drivers wheel. (or maybe it slid sideways into a pole or something?) The damage had been "repaired" back in the day, but there was still some hidden damage that needed fixed. I knew the car had some damage in this area when I got it, but wasn't aware of how extensive the damage was until the car was disassembled. The drivers front frame rail was bent. The drivers rocker panel had been pushed in also, enough to slightly bend the torsion bar crossmember. The driver's kick panel sheet metal had been crunched in front of the door hinges, and that also crunched that end of the firewall. The upper cowl was also damaged. The driver's inner fender had some issues too.
I ordered all of that from AMD, and a passenger inner fender also.
The K frame was tweaked a bit when the frame rail was bent, so I was hunting for a K frame.
The doors had some repairable rust in the corners, but they also had large tears in the jamb around the latch mechanism. It could probably be fixed, but would be more cost effective to replace them, so I was looking for a good pair of doors.
The car fenders were ok. The driver's side just needed some minor work. (I'm sure it was replaced during the accident.)
The car did originally have a front sway bar, but it didn't have any torque boxes or factory frame stiffening.
The plan is to build a very nice car, but it won't be a trailer queen. This car will be driven on the street and enjoyed, so I wanted some suspension improvements.
:burnout:
I ordered the four factory style torque boxes, all the leaf spring mount reinforcements, and the pinion snubber reinforcement from Resto Rick and Harms Automotive. If you haven't heard of these individuals, you should look them up. I highly recommend both of them. These reinforcements were all part of the factory Extra Heavy Duty Suspension (Hemi Suspension) that was standard on Hemi & 440-6 cars.
I also ordered a lower radiator support reinforcement from XV engineering, to tie the front of the front frame rails together better. I've enjoyed every part that I've purchased from XV. For this car, I prefer the design of the XV piece over the US Car Tools part. The XV lower radiator support looks more like a factory frame rail, while the US Car Tools part is full of lightening holes and looks more like it belongs on a race car. I'm sure they both function fine, but I wanted a less radical more factory look. Something that people might not even notice.
:lurking: :inlove:
October 2015
The new metal has arrived. Time to get to work!
Removing the rear window revealed some additional rust at the top and sides of the window opening. Luckily it was repairable.
The cars in the background are a 70 440-6 black on black Road Runner and a 71 440-6 red Road Runner.
I'm waiting patiently to see were your at.... Aug 2015 was a couple years ago, you might be driving it by now......
Helped build this one 15+ years ago....
Still October 2015
Here you can see how the rocker panel is bent from the crossmember forward. It did bend the crossmember a little also.
It was really handy having another 70 Road Runner in the room to double check measurements, along with the Factory Service Manual info. We used an original straight K frame to help position the new frame rail in the correct spot. All the other black metal seen here is new from AMD.
Red 1970 Challenger T/A in the background.
October 2015 Again
With the new metal in place, you can see how much the firewall was pushed in.
November 2015
I found a good K frame and a passenger door at the Don Garlits show swap meet. I still needed to find a driver's door.
With the new rocker panel, crossmember, kick panel, and front frame rail installed, we removed the rest of the metal that needed to be replaced.
I also got my first test drive, Flintstones style.
With the old metal out of the way, the new pieces were fit onto the car.
Still November 2015
Fitting a quarter panel.
The cars in the background are the same 70 440-6 black on black Road Runner and a 71 440-6 red Road Runner as previously pictured.
December 2015
The first picture here is the pile of bad metal that was removed from the car.
The lower cowl (rain pan) was blasted, primed, and painted body color to protect it from future corrosion and also so that you'd see body color if you ever looked down through the cowl vents.
Proceeding with fitting new metal.
Still December 2015
Proceeding with fitting more of the exterior sheet metal.
It's starting to look like a car again.
A trip to visit family for the holidays results in a drivers door.
This drivers door is from a 1969 Road Runner, but it does have the arrow stamping in the door jamb that tells the assembly line workers were to install the new for 1970 door VIN sticker. It must have been a very late built 1969 car to have a 1970 door.
(1968 doors have the inside lock button located in a different position.)
4 door car doors are not interchangeable with 2 door car doors.
January 2016
Working on getting consistent panel gaps.
The filler panel had a small issue on the driver's side. It was sticking up into the rear window opening just a little at the corner. A small cut, tap it into place, and weld it up fixed it.
February 2016
More work on the panel gaps, followed by turning the car over to work on the bottom, installing the 4 speed manual trans floor hump, and install the torque boxes, leaf spring reinforcements, & pinion snubber reinforcement.
March 2016
Media blasting & block sanding
April 2016
More block sanding
sorting through what's left of the parts to see if there's anything I still need to order/find
referencing the original parts to make sure I get the correct colors/patterns on interior parts.
sending the gauges off for restoration
documenting the engine & transmission numbers before installation
May 2016
June 2016
Picked up this solid 1970 Satellite for a parts car. I wanted the nice trunk lid, and a few other things. Maybe when I'm done with it, the guy up the road who wants to fix his 70 440 GTX will want what's left.
Also brought home this 1968 Dodge Charger. It's Dark Turquoise with a white vinyl top, white interior, and white R/T bumblebee stripe. 440 four barrel with console shift auto trans and air conditioning. This will get built someday. I'm already gathering parts. It's not road worthy at the moment, but it runs well enough to drive it around the yard or on and off a trailer.
August 2016
seam sealing
sound deadening
painting the doors and the new trunk lid
September 2016
had an issue with the heater core tubes. They didn't come through the firewall at the same angle. Bent them to shape, and had the local radiator shop resolder it.
Red 1969 Charger R/T on the left, Plum Crazy 1970 Road Runner center, Black 1970 Road Runner right
October 2016
table of parts waiting to be installed
looking over the manual trans. Looks like I'm going to need shift levers, linkages, shift mechanism with mounting bracket, shift handle with grips etc. Also need lockout linkages that go to steering column.
Coded on the Fender Tag
Plum Crazy 1970 two door hardtop (no B pillar) Plymouth Road Runner with a 383 four barrel engine and console shifted 4 speed pistol grip manual trans.
Premium vinyl bucket seats in a white interior with black A pillars, dash, kick panels, carpet, & seat belts.
Scheduled Production Date of April 8th 1970 in St. Louis MO
Light package
3.55 Performance Axle Package with Max Cooling fan & 26 inch radiator
Remote control driver's side mirror
3 speed wipers
Rallye Dash (standard on Road Runner)
Stereo 8 Track Radio with 3 speaker dash
Performance Hood Stripe
Road Runner Dust Trail side stripes
Reflective White Road Runner tail panel stripe
Not coded on the tag, but would have been on the Broadcast Sheet
All glass factory tinted (which is a little odd for a non-air conditioned car)
Woodgrain steering wheel (desireable)
Power Steering
Day / Night rearview mirror
Carpet
Ashtrays in the rear armrests were standard
The Hardtop (23) armrest bases are chrome. The Coupe (21) armrest bases were color keyed unless you paid extra for the A87 Road Runner Décor Group which was only available on the Coupe (21) cars. This décor group got you chrome armrest bases, and several other upgrades which came standard on the Hardtop (23).
Factory Options being added to the car
Air Grabber Hood
Go-Wing Spoiler
Passenger Side Mirror
Hood Pins
Exhaust Tips
Extra Heavy Duty Suspension (Hemi Suspension) (and then some)
I enjoy the 3 speaker dash, but the original 8 track was missing, so I'll use a reproduction 1970 Plymouth AM/FM with modern internals.
Power Front Disc Brakes (11.75 inch, so actually larger than factory) The car originally had manual drum brakes on all four corners.
I'm going to run 15 inch Rallye wheels. I've no idea what wheels the car originally had, but they were probably 14 inch.
High Capacity fan blade which pulls more air at all RPM.
Modifications
I'm going to run Pertronix electronic ignition inside the distributor. I want electronic ignition, but these cars never had it, so it will remain mostly hidden inside the distributor.
The original antenna was also missing. I'll use a power antenna with a stock bezel so that it looks close to original, but a car cover will be easy to use.
Radial Tires and improved suspension (details later in this thread)
November 2016
a few more parts on the table
black powder coated seat springs
The engine is still patiently waiting.
January 2017
Wow , lots of hours in this one. Great workmanship! :clapping:
March 2017
Time to make the engine a little more pretty.
Painting, Sanding...
Still March 2017
More painting, sanding, and close ups of the lower radiator support reinforcement, followed by masking to paint the underside.
April 2017
Still April 2017
Yes, the bottom of the car was also sanded like the top and painted Plum Crazy before being very neatly undercoated.
I know this isn't quite the (sloppy) way that the factory did things. I guess that makes this car a touch over restored.
I certainly have an appreciation for the factory primer bottoms with body color overspray, but on a car that's going to be regularly driven, I like undercoating for a variety of reasons.
That's a Firm Feel Stage 3 power steering box being installed.
Stage 3 is the least assisted power steering box, for a more firm steering wheel. It requires slightly more effort to turn than the factory steering box, which most people would say is a good thing. Chrysler factory power steering was over assisted, making it easy to overcorrect in a turn.
Steering firmness is also affected by front tire width (scrub), and steering wheel diameter (leverage).
It would also be affected by a fast ratio pitman arm (leverage).
Stage 3 is nowhere near being overly firm in my 70 'Cuda, and I expect it to perform nicely in this 70 Road Runner also.
April 2017 again
Had some more parts powdercoated in black.
Tracked down a High Capacity fan blade. These are kind of hard to find, probably something to do with them being used on Superbirds.
There are 5 levels of Mopar cooling
1. Standard Cooling
2. Air Conditioning (bigger radiator with shroud, different water pump impeller, bigger fan blade & thermal drive with 2 rpm limits)
3. High Capacity Fan (pulls more air at all RPM, no RPM limit like thermal drive or torque drive)
4. Max Cooling (biggest radiator with shroud, air conditioner sized fan blade but with torque drive that has 1 rpm limit)
5. Trailer Towing (this is the Max Cooling radiator with the High Capacity Fan)
Ordered a 2998956 Max Cooling radiator from Glen Ray Radiators.
Tracked down a correct carburetor core and sent it to Harms Automotive for restoration. Scott Smith does Amazing work!
I've attached a list of the four barrel carburetors used on 1970 383 engines. (click on it or download it, and you'll be able to read it better)
It includes CFM ratings for the Carter carbs (difficult to find CFM ratings for those)
It also includes the correct Choke part number for each carb, correcting two typos in the parts book, and a note about superceded part numbers.
Scott told me that having the correct carb list # (R-4???A) isn't critical for proper function. The differences are minor, and he can build any Holley 4160 so that it will work like one of the other list numbers.
I ended up getting the correct carb list # for my car, but having Scott build it to work like an Air Grabber carb, since I added the Air Grabber Hood.
This is soooo impressive to see and very motivating. :bravo: Nice job man.
Very impressive.
I find it just incredible to strip a car down to that few bones and put it all back together again.
Beautiful car !! Can't wait for more......
Great Job on this Bird.
looks similar to what I had built a few years ago.
Looking real good. Excellent workmanship and attention to detail.
Quote from: cataclysm80 on September 06, 2017, 07:07:17 PM
There are 5 levels of Mopar cooling
1. Standard Cooling
2. Air Conditioning (bigger radiator with shroud, different water pump impeller, bigger fan blade & thermal drive with 2 rpm limits)
3. High Capacity Fan (pulls more air at all RPM, no RPM limit like thermal drive or torque drive)
4. Max Cooling (biggest radiator with shroud, air conditioner sized fan blade but with torque drive that has 1 rpm limit)
5. Trailer Towing (this is the Max Cooling radiator with the High Capacity Fan)
What is the part# on the fan you ended up using?
Great thread, nice work! It makes me feel like looking for another car to do again.
Quote from: fc7cuda on September 07, 2017, 05:28:15 PM
Quote from: cataclysm80 on September 06, 2017, 07:07:17 PM
There are 5 levels of Mopar cooling
1. Standard Cooling
2. Air Conditioning (bigger radiator with shroud, different water pump impeller, bigger fan blade & thermal drive with 2 rpm limits)
3. High Capacity Fan (pulls more air at all RPM, no RPM limit like thermal drive or torque drive)
4. Max Cooling (biggest radiator with shroud, air conditioner sized fan blade but with torque drive that has 1 rpm limit)
5. Trailer Towing (this is the Max Cooling radiator with the High Capacity Fan)
What is the part# on the fan you ended up using?
There are 3 fan blades for a 1970 383 four barrel B body... (all have 7 blades)
18 inch diameter with 2 inch width Standard Blade 2863 224
18.5 inch diameter with 2.5 width Air Conditioning & Max Cooling Blade 2863 216
18 inch diameter with 2.125 width High Capacity & Trailer Towing Blade 2863 223 <------- I used this one.
The High Capacity blade has the blades bent at a different pitch and is very heavy duty. The blades are sandwiched between thick metal front and rear, and held in place with big rivets. This blade has to be balanced, so some of the blades will have rivets that appear to be in random places. That's how they added weight to balance it.
Some of these units have a part number stamped in the metal, and some of them had it applied with a paint stamp. The units with a paint stamped part number are usually missing the number due to the paint wearing off / rust. You can still identify the blade by the measurements and description / pics though. It looks different than the other blades.
The one that I found had the paint stamp gone.
Here's some pics of another one.
There are 5 levels of Mopar cooling
1. Standard Cooling
2. Air Conditioning (bigger radiator with shroud, different water pump impeller, bigger fan blade & thermal drive with 2 rpm limits)
3. High Capacity Fan (pulls more air at all RPM, no RPM limit like thermal drive or torque drive)
4. Max Cooling (biggest radiator with shroud, air conditioner sized fan blade but with torque drive that has 1 rpm limit)
5. Trailer Towing (this is the Max Cooling radiator with the High Capacity Fan)
1970 383 four barrel B body cooling...
Standard Cooling with Manual Transmission
22 inch Radiator 2998 954
Shroud only used on 335 horsepower engines with the high performance camshaft. No shroud on 330 horsepower engines.
Fan Blade 7 blade 18 inch diameter with 2 inch width 2863 224
Spacer 1.06 inch thick
Standard Cooling with Automatic Transmission
22 inch Radiator 2998 960
Shroud only used on 335 horsepower engines with the high performance camshaft. No shroud on 330 horsepower engines.
Fan Blade 7 blade 18 inch diameter with 2 inch width 2863 224
Spacer 1.06 inch thick
Air Conditioning
26 inch Radiator 2998 961
Shroud Yes
Fan Blade 7 blade 18.5 inch diameter with 2.5 width 2863 216
Spacer Thermal Drive which limits fan RPM and has a different RPM limit when it senses being hot
Note: Air Conditioning uses a water pump with a different impeller.
High Capacity with Manual Transmission
22 inch Radiator 2998 954
Shroud only used on 335 horsepower engines with the high performance camshaft. No shroud on 330 horsepower engines.
Fan Blade 7 blade 18 inch diameter with 2.125 width 2863 223
Spacer 1.06 inch thick
High Capacity with Automatic Transmission
22 inch Radiator 2998 960
Shroud only used on 335 horsepower engines with the high performance camshaft. No shroud on 330 horsepower engines.
Fan Blade 7 blade 18 inch diameter with 2.125 width 2863 223
Spacer 1.06 inch thick
Max Cooling
26 inch Radiator 2998 956
Shroud Yes
Fan Blade 7 blade 18.5 inch diameter with 2.5 width 2863 216
Spacer Torque Drive which limits fan RPM
Trailer Towing
26 inch Radiator 2998 956
Shroud Yes
Fan Blade 7 blade 18 inch diameter with 2.125 width 2863 223
Spacer 1.06 inch thick
For comparison, The 383 four barrel Max Cooling setup is the same parts that were Standard Cooling with a Hemi.
The Hemi could not get Air Conditioning, Max Cooling or Trailer Towing.
Standard Cooling was standard of course.
Air Conditioning Cooling came with option H51 Air Conditioning
Max Cooling came with the various axle packages
Trailer Towing Cooling came with option A35 Heavy Duty Trailer Towing Package
I'm not sure how you'd order the regular "High Capacity" cooling, but the books say it was available on everything except Hemi and 383 Police cars.
where did you find this info & how would #3 end up on a vehicle? AFAIK there were NO OPTIONAL "cooling packages"
where did you find 330hp NO shroud VS. 335hp shroud info?
Quote from: cataclysm80 on September 07, 2017, 11:59:25 PM
There are 5 levels of Mopar cooling
1. Standard Cooling
2. Air Conditioning (bigger radiator with shroud, different water pump impeller, bigger fan blade & thermal drive with 2 rpm limits)
3. High Capacity Fan (pulls more air at all RPM, no RPM limit like thermal drive or torque drive)
4. Max Cooling (biggest radiator with shroud, air conditioner sized fan blade but with torque drive that has 1 rpm limit)
5. Trailer Towing (this is the Max Cooling radiator with the High Capacity Fan)
1970 383 four barrel B body cooling...
#1
Standard Cooling with Manual Transmission
Standard Cooling with Automatic Transmission
#2
included with H51 Air Conditioning
#3
?? High Capacity with Manual Transmission
?? High Capacity with Automatic Transmission
#4
included with axle packages A36 (3.55s) or A31 (3.91s) Max Cooling
#5
included with package A35 Trailer Towing
Great Info
Thanks for adding it :bigthumb:
Quote from: fc7cuda on September 08, 2017, 05:37:15 AM
@cataclysm80 (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/cataclysm80_127)
Thank you for the detailed response. My V code Cuda has the 960 radiator and the 224 fan as original. 3.23 open gear car. Sounds like I might be able to battle the Texas heat alittle better by changing to the 223 fan without much noticeable different at shows. :banana:
Great read, and thank you for sharing. :drinkingbud:
Yep, that sounds right. I just glanced at the 'Cuda 440-6 info, and assuming that your 960 radiator is original, you should have an automatic transmission with standard cooling, which is the standard fan blade with a 1.60 spacer. (no torque drive)
The 223 fan is also the High Capacity fan for that application, so you'd be going from standard cooling to high capacity cooling.
If you need more cooling after that, there's the 956 max cooling / trailer towing radiator. (even though the trailer towing option wasn't available on a 440-6)
Manual transmission 440-6 standard cooling used a different radiator number, and had a torque drive.
If you have a torque drive on your car, then you'll also need to get a 1.60 spacer to replace it.
The standard blade & high capacity blade have a small bolt pattern for the 1.60 spacer.
The air conditioning & max cooling blade have a large bolt pattern for the thermal drive or torque drive.
Quote from: 6bblgt on September 08, 2017, 12:46:39 AM
where did you find 330hp NO shroud VS. 335hp shroud info?
In 1970
A 383 four barrel with 330 horsepower was optional with auto trans in Belvedere, Satellite, & Sport Satellite (and equivalent Dodge Models)
A 383 four barrel with 335 horsepower was standard with any trans in Roadrunner, and optional with manual trans in Belvedere, Satellite, & Sport Satellite (and the same for equivalent Dodge models)
The main difference between the two was that the 330 horsepower engine used the same camshaft as the 383 two barrel engine, while the 335 horsepower engine used a high performance camshaft.
This info is in the 1970 Plymouth B body Illustrated Facts and Feature Manual (and probably in several other places also).
Then there is this page in the 1970 Plymouth Factory Service Manual. I've highlighted the pertinent areas.
It includes a special footnote that the 335 horsepower engines with a high performance camshaft had a shroud.
This strongly implies that the 330 horsepower engines did not get shrouds, because if both 330 & 335 had shrouds there would be no need for the special footnote. It would just say "YES".
great detective & organizational skills!
I knew the info had to out there somewhere & the "shroud" YES or NO question seems to come up from time to time
I'll check the other '70 service manuals tomorrow - but I'll "ASSUME" at this point .....
ALL 1970:
Road Runners, Super Bees, Chargers, 'cudas & Challenger R/Ts had a fan shroud (Coronet R/Ts, Charger R/Ts & GTXs also)
Quote from: cataclysm80 on September 07, 2017, 11:59:25 PM
I'm not sure how you'd order the regular "High Capacity" cooling, but the books say it was available on everything except Hemi and 383 Police cars.
Quote from: 6bblgt on September 08, 2017, 12:46:39 AM
where did you find this info & how would #3 end up on a vehicle? AFAIK there were NO OPTIONAL "cooling packages"
Quote from: cataclysm80 on September 07, 2017, 11:59:25 PM
There are 5 levels of Mopar cooling
1. Standard Cooling
2. Air Conditioning (bigger radiator with shroud, different water pump impeller, bigger fan blade & thermal drive with 2 rpm limits)
3. High Capacity Fan (pulls more air at all RPM, no RPM limit like thermal drive or torque drive)
4. Max Cooling (biggest radiator with shroud, air conditioner sized fan blade but with torque drive that has 1 rpm limit)
5. Trailer Towing (this is the Max Cooling radiator with the High Capacity Fan)
1970 383 four barrel B body cooling...
#1
Standard Cooling with Manual Transmission
Standard Cooling with Automatic Transmission
#2
included with H51 Air Conditioning
#3
?? High Capacity with Manual Transmission
?? High Capacity with Automatic Transmission
#4
included with axle packages A36 (3.55s) or A31 (3.91s) Max Cooling
#5
included with package A35 Trailer Towing
The info primarily comes from the 1970 Plymouth Factory Service Manual, though the fan blade part numbers had to be looked up in the 70-71 Parts Manual.
I posted one of the FSM pages just above this in reply to one of your questions.
I've attached a pic of another FSM page below that describes the 5 levels of Mopar cooling.
The FSM says that these 5 cooling levels exist, but it isn't specific about how you would get either the High Capacity or the Max Cooling.
I've seen it mentioned in several places that Max Cooling was acquired through the 5 performance axle packages (only two of which were available with a 383 four barrel).
As I mentioned, I don't know how you'd get the regular High Capacity cooling.
Perhaps some option that I haven't thought of?
Perhaps dealer installed?
While searching for my High Capacity fan blade, I heard several times about how Superbirds originally came with the Max Cooling torque drive fan until November 5th 1969 when they switched to the High Capacity fans with a spacer. I wasn't building a Superbird, so I didn't look into the topic.
Looking at the FSM page that I posted above, it indicates that the High Capacity cooling was available on a large variety of engines, so it's not just a Superbird thing.
#3
"An optional high capacity fan to protect against overheating for unusual operating conditions is available"
I think it is only going to be found on fleet and/or maybe EXPORT orders
Quote from: 6bblgt on September 09, 2017, 02:10:22 AM
I'll "ASSUME" at this point .....
ALL 1970:
Road Runners, Super Bees, Chargers, 'cudas & Challenger R/Ts had a fan shroud (Coronet R/Ts, Charger R/Ts & GTXs also)
Since the 335 engine was standard in all Road Runners & Super Bees, they should all have shrouds.
I've heard that Chargers could come with the 330 horsepower engine, but the source was a restoration book, so the info should be double checked with a factory source.
A 330 horsepower engine wouldn't have a shroud unless it had air conditioning, axle package, or trailer towing to bump it into a different cooling level.
I looked in the 70 Challenger Illustrated Facts and Feature Manual to see if 330 & 335 horsepower engines were both available.
The book contains a discrepancy. I does list the 383 four barrel twice, once with the standard camshaft and once with the high performance camshaft, but it shows both at 335 horsepower.
I looked in the 1970 Dodge Division Code Guide for Challenger to see if it could clear thing up, but no luck. Both 383 four barrels use the same E63 designation.
Maybe the dealership brochures could clear it up?
I think the 330 horsepower auto trans cars would have a Carter carb if that helps any. (all the others had Holley)
My guess would be that the performance cars with an "S" VIN would have the 335 horsepower engine, while the regular cars with an "H" VIN would have 330 horsepower with auto trans or 335 horsepower with manual trans.
(EDIT: ^ That's a guess, it may not be correct. More info about 383 engines, from factory brochures, has been posted below.)
Quote from: 6bblgt on September 09, 2017, 02:49:35 AM
#3
"An optional high capacity fan to protect against overheating for unusual operating conditions is available"
I think it is only going to be found on fleet and/or maybe EXPORT orders
Max Cooling has a similar description there.
unusually severe operation requirements It's an axle package though.
Good thinking on the fleet/export orders. I can imagine that High Capacity cooling would be useful in a place that allows heater delete cars.
Everyone says that the High Capacity fan blade is difficult to find, so I'd guess that not a lot of them were made.
AFAIK all 383 4bbl '70 Chargers are HP & 335hp
- "ALL badged musclecars (incl. 340 Duster/Swinger & Sport Fury GT) & Chargers" received shrouds
and to take this further off-topic
this is an odd cooling combination, not seen often - or maybe anywhere else "documented"
an export ordered & presumably delivered to southeast Asia when new
Challenger R/T convertible 383HP 4-speed w/3.55s (NO mention of an axle package :rubeyes:)
&
N45 - FAN-SOLID DRIVE
N51 - COOLING PACKAGE MAX. LESS FAN
I think this is the "HI-CAPACITY" & it's a 26" radiator
wonder what springs & torsion bars this R/T came with??
Quote from: cataclysm80 on September 09, 2017, 01:39:31 AM
In 1970
A 383 four barrel with 330 horsepower was optional with auto trans in Belvedere, Satellite, & Sport Satellite (and equivalent Dodge Models)
A 383 four barrel with 335 horsepower was standard with any trans in Roadrunner, and optional with manual trans in Belvedere, Satellite, & Sport Satellite (and the same for equivalent Dodge models)
The main difference between the two was that the 330 horsepower engine used the same camshaft as the 383 two barrel engine, while the 335 horsepower engine used a high performance camshaft.
This info is in the 1970 Plymouth B body Illustrated Facts and Feature Manual (and probably in several other places also).
Quote from: cataclysm80 on September 09, 2017, 02:59:29 AM
I've heard that Chargers could come with the 330 horsepower engine, but the source was a restoration book, so the info should be double checked with a factory source.
Quote from: 6bblgt on September 09, 2017, 03:21:13 AM
AFAIK all 383 4bbl '70 Chargers are HP & 335hp
- "ALL badged musclecars (incl. 340 Duster/Swinger & Sport Fury GT) & Chargers" received shrouds
Due to the Charger info being in a separate book from the Challenger / Dart, I don't have as much Charger info around here. I did manage to acquire some since getting my 68 Charger though.
In the 1968 Dodge Charger Illustrated Facts and Features Manual, The standard engine for a base model Charger is a 318.
The optional engines for a base model 1968 Charger are a 383 two barrel, and a 383 four barrel.
This Charger 383 four barrel is listed as 330 horsepower with the standard camshaft.
The 335 horsepower engine was not available in a 1968 Charger.
The Charger R/T came standard with a 440. A 383 was not available in the Charger R/T.
I also have the 1968 Dodge Fever dealership brochures. (both the Full Line Catalog and the Performance Models Catalog)
Those agree with Facts & Features Manual, no 335 horsepower 383 in 1968 Chargers.
For the 1968 Coronet, it also lists only the 330 horsepower 383 four barrel on the base model, and a 440 with the R/T.
No 335 horsepower 383 four barrel is mentioned in this book at all. From what I understand, that engine was a mid year introduction as the standard engine for the Super Bee.
I also have the 1968 Plymouth Beat Goes On dealership brochure.
It does list the 335 horsepower 383 four barrel as exclusive to the Road Runner, not available on any other Plymouth.
The Plymouth nickname for the 335 horsepower engine is "Road Runner 383 V-8".
The Plymouth nickname for the 330 horsepower engine is "Super Commando 383 V-8". It was available in Fury & other B bodies (not Road Runner or GTX).
GTX came standard with a 440 and couldn't get a 383.
There was also a 300 horsepower "Super Commando 383 V-8" four barrel that was available in 1968 Barracudas.
I also have the 1969 Look what Plymouth's up to now dealership brochure.
It's very similar to the previous year. 335 horsepower "Road Runner 383 V-8" only available in Road Runners.
330 horsepower "Super Commando 383-V8" available in Fury & other B bodies (not Road Runner or GTX).
GTX came standard with a 440 and couldn't get a 383.
The "Super Commando 383 V-8" for Barracudas was changed. It was now rated at 330 horsepower, but at a higher RPM and lesser torque than the B body Super Commando.
I also have the 1969 Dodge Fever dealership brochure.
It does list the 335 horsepower 383 four barrel. The Dodge nickname for this engine is "383 V8 Magnum". It says that the extra horsepower comes from using the camshaft and heads from a 440.
The Dodge nickname for the 330 horsepower 383 four barrel is "383 4-bbl. V8"
The standard engine for a base model Charger could be either a 225 or a 318.
The optional engines for a base model Charger are a 383 two barrel, and a 383 four barrel with 330 horsepower.
The 335 horsepower 383 V8 Magnum was not available on a 1969 Charger.
The Charger R/T came standard with a 440. A 383 was not available in a Charger R/T.
Similarly, the base model Coronet could get a 330 horsepower 383 4-bbl. V8, and the Coronet R/T came with a 440.
The 335 horsepower 383 V8 Magnum was only used in the Super Bee.
The Dart GTSport is listed as being available with a 330 horsepower 383 4-bbl. V8.
I also have the 1970 Dodge Material dealership brochure.
It's very similar to the previous year regarding Chargers. Base model Chargers can get up to the 330 horsepower 383 4-bbl. V8, and Charger R/T came with a 440. Again, no 335 horsepower 383 V8 Magnum engines listed for a Charger.
The Coronet R/T is still standard with a 440 and couldn't get a 383.
The rest of the Coronet information here is a little vague. It does say that both 383 four barrels were available, but it doesn't specify whether the 383 Magnum continued to be only on the Super Bee, or if it was also available on lesser models. The 1970 Plymouth B body Illustrated Facts and Feature Manual says that the base model cars could get the 383 Magnum if they had a manual transmission, so I wouldn't be surprised if base Coronets were handled the same way. The 1970 Coronet Illustrated Facts and Feature Manual would probably have the answer, but I don't have that book (yet).
The 335 horsepower 383 V8 Magnum was standard in the Super Bee.
The 335 horsepower 383 V8 Magnum was also standard in the Challenger R/T.
It does show that the 330 horsepower 383 4-bbl. V8 was also available on Challengers, but it doesn't specify whether it's base model or R/T or both.
This clears up the discrepancy in the 1970 Challenger Illustrated Facts and Feature Manual, both 383 four barrels were available on Challengers, and the standard camshaft engine should have been listed as 330 horsepower.
The 1970 Challenger Illustrated Facts and Feature Manual says that both 383 four barrel engines were standard on Challenger R/T cars.
The 330 horsepower standard camshaft 383 four barrel was also available on base model Challengers.
I don't see anywhere that it specifies which 383 four barrel engine a Challenger R/T should receive, but I suspect that it's similar to what is specified in the 1970 Plymouth B body Illustrated Facts and Feature Manual for 1970 Belvedere, Satellite, & Sport Satellite, where the manual transmission got you the 383 Magnum, and the auto transmission got you the lesser horsepower engine.
it is much easier to discuss one model year at a time - as things changed from year to year & it does nothing to clear up the big picture - I have numerous issues with what's written above concerning 1968-'69
but for 1970 (since it applies to your B-body & E-bodies)
all US spec. production 'cuda (BS) & Challenger R/T (JS) base engines are 383HP (335hp) painted orange & equipped with a HOLLEY 4bbl carburetor.
there are ZERO 383 4bbl (330hp) painted blue & equipped with a CARTER AVS 4bbl carburetor engines on these "performance" models in any combination.
the above hold true for the medium price "performance" B-bodies: Dodge Super Bee (WM) & Plymouth Road Runner (RM)
& AFAIK if a 4 bbl carb'd 383 was ordered in Dodge's intermediate personal luxury car Charger it was also of the orange painted HOLLEY carburetor version = 383HP (335hp)
the "lessor" non-performance badged B & E-bodies for 1970:
Barracuda
Gran Coupe
Challenger
Challenger SE
Belvedere
Satellite
Sport Satellite
Coronet Deluxe
Coronet 440
Coronet 500
all had 225 or 318 as STANDARD equipment & 383 w/4bbl carb as an OPTION (E63)
with an automatic transmission these cars received the blue painted CARTER AVS carb'd 330hp engine
with a 3 or 4-speed manual transmission these cars received the orange painted HOLLEY carb'd 335hp (383HP) engine
I remembered that I had the 1970 Barracuda Illustrated Facts and Features Manual.
It says that the 330 horsepower 383 four barrel was available on Barracuda & Gran Coupe.
It says that the 335 horsepower 383 four barrel was standard on the 'Cuda.
No mention of the 335 horsepower 383 four barrel being available in manual trans Barracuda & Gran Coupe.
Even though these manuals & brochures/catalogs were all printed by Chrysler when these cars were new, they still might not be an accurate representation of how the cars were actually built.
It wouldn't be the first time I've seen an error in factory literature.
It's no wonder that the restoration books which people write, have so many errors.
in '70 there are no non-HP big blocks with a manual transission
it wasn't an advertised choice - the transmission spec'd made the difference
the 383 4bbl OPTION cost was $137.55 (330hp/335hp) on a base 318 V8 Barracuda, Challenger, Belvedere, Coronet or Charger
Quote from: 6bblgt on September 09, 2017, 03:53:08 AM
and to take this further off-topic
this is an odd cooling combination, not seen often - or maybe anywhere else "documented"
an export ordered & presumably delivered to southeast Asia when new
Challenger R/T convertible 383HP 4-speed w/3.55s (NO mention of an axle package :rubeyes:)
&
N45 - FAN-SOLID DRIVE
N51 - COOLING PACKAGE MAX. LESS FAN
I think this is the "HI-CAPACITY" & it's a 26" radiator
wonder what springs & torsion bars this R/T came with??
I just looked this ^ over. WOW, that's a cool car! (though I'd prefer a different color)
Galen's White Book lists N45 as 1969 to 1971 High Capacity Fan, and lists N51 as Max Cooling.
I'm not quite sure where you'd put it on the order form, but apparently N45 gets you the High Capacity Fan.
I wonder if export cars used a different order form?
That particular car having N45 High Capacity Fan WITH N51 Max Cooling is what the Factory Service Manual describes as level 5 Trailer Towing Cooling.
Interesting that it seems to have been ordered without the A35 Trailer Towing Package, similar to how the 3.55 axle was ordered without the A36 Axle Package.
It looks like the only things in the Axle Package that weren't on the car are the torque drive with fan, and possibly the Extra Heavy Duty Suspension.
Here is the Axle Availability page from the 1970 Dodge Division Code Guide for Challengers.
It lists D56 as being optional on 340 with Auto trans or 4 speed manual trans.
I suppose that availability of this option could have changed over the course of the year.
I know of a '70 340 automatic Challenger that is coded for 3.55s w/o the A36 - I thought it was a mistake but it's there in the coding guide :looney:
are those '70 coding guides available on this site, if not, why not?
trailer towing shows 3.23 gear only - does that coding list show E60-15s N/A on Challenger convertible?
I think the EXPORT window sticker was intentionally shortened to get it all on one page - no STANDARD equipment list, no space-saver
& yes I believe there are coding guides/order forms for Canada & Export - there are simply OPTIONS not available worldwide
No, I don't believe these coding guides are available here. They're pretty hard to find anywhere, though a lot of the info is available in other places. I think I have most of them for Plymouth & Dodge E bodies 70-74, but I know I'm missing a couple. Someone had saved them from a closed down dealership, and sent me photocopies of them. They're the only ones I've heard of, but someone once told me that they had a similar item with a different name. (I never saw what they had, so I'm not sure what to think about that. Maybe he had a Salesman's Pocket Guide?) I think these coding guides were used by dealerships to order cars. They show the various options, suggested color combinations, note what items must be coded, etc. etc. Neat stuff. I think they were part of a bigger book that contained coding info for various models. This 70 Challenger one starts on page 13 of the book, and ends on page 25. Occasionally there are handwritten notations, either correcting an error or changing an items availability.
On the E-Bodies.org Facebook group, I offered to scan them if needed, along with the dealership brochures if they didn't already have them all. I believe Tyler said that the were very busy rapidly adding new things. Hopefully we'll get them added at some point.
U82 E60 x 15 Collapsible Spare Required Black Side Wall with Raised White Letters
+OPT on 340
OPT on 383-4 & "All Except Conv 440"
N/A W/AC on Conv 440
I'm not sure why the 340 has a "+" with it. Maybe extra cost?
I also don't follow the notation on Conv 440. Does "Conv" mean Convertible? I read the notation as Not Available With Air Conditioning, but that doesn't make any sense. I can't think of what air conditioning would have to do with tire size. Maybe "Conv" means Conversion, as a reference to the 440 six pack? "Conv" is only mentioned in the 440 column. None of the other engines mention Conv.
Since you asked about this topic, I'm guessing that you know something about it. Maybe this will make sense to you.
I have originals of the 1972-'74 & '77 Chrysler-Plymouth-Imperial Coding guides - the '70+ e-bodies would be great to see in the "resource" section
when the A66 package was introduced for the Challenger mid-September '69 - E60-15 tires were part of the ~$250 package - somewhere around November the package was revised to ~$175 the E60s went away & were replaced by F70-14s.
a friend has a Nov. '69 built 440+6 R/T convertible - the dealership order form spec's out 15x7 rallyes & E60-15s - it's crossed out & noted "N/A convertible" - 14" rallyes & F70-14s came on the car. Figured it had to be mentioned somewhere I hadn't seen yet.
I'll have to look at a couple tires, but maybe the 440 R/T convertible was overweight for what Chrysler Corp. felt the safety factor needed to be on the E60-15s tire load rating
That makes sense I think: I would guess load rating is why the Hemis went up to F60's rather than E60's. A 440 with A/C is getting close to the weight of a Hemi.
I would love to add them to our Resource section of this site. :bigthumb: :grouphug:
Quote from: 6bblgt on September 10, 2017, 02:11:00 AM
I have originals of the 1972-'74 & '77 Chrysler-Plymouth-Imperial Coding guides - the '70+ e-bodies would be great to see in the "resource" section
Quote from: Cuda Cody on September 10, 2017, 10:53:44 AM
I would love to add them to our Resource section of this site. :bigthumb: :grouphug:
Sounds good to me. I'll try to find time to scan them.
Is there any particular DPI or pixel size that you prefer? I can do whatever.
I have...
1970 Dodge Division Code Guide Challenger October 1969
1971 Dart & Challenger Ordering Guide Revised July 6th 1970 (includes 1971 T/A stuff)
1972 Dodge Division Code Guide Challenger Revised 7-30-71
1973 Challenger Code Guide
1971 Barracuda-Gran Coupe-Cuda Code List
1972 Barracuda-Cuda Code List
1973 Barracuda-Cuda Code Guide
Looks like I'm missing the 1970 Barracuda-Gran Coupe-Cuda, and both the 1974 guides.
Does anyone have those?
Dan, do your Chrysler-Plymouth-Imperial Coding Guides include the 1974 Barracuda info?
The scanning can take a bit of time for sure. Thank you for anything you can do to help. Anything from 150 to 300 DPI should be plenty.
Quote from: cataclysm80 on September 10, 2017, 04:17:48 PM
Sounds good to me. I'll try to find time to scan them.
Is there any particular DPI or pixel size that you prefer? I can do whatever.
I have...
1970 Dodge Division Code Guide Challenger October 1969
1971 Dart & Challenger Ordering Guide Revised July 6th 1970 (includes 1971 T/A stuff)
1972 Dodge Division Code Guide Challenger Revised 7-30-71
1973 Challenger Code Guide
1971 Barracuda-Gran Coupe-Cuda Code List
1972 Barracuda-Cuda Code List
1973 Barracuda-Cuda Code Guide
Looks like I'm missing the 1970 Barracuda-Gran Coupe-Cuda, and both the 1974 guides.
Does anyone have those?
Dan, do your Chrysler-Plymouth-Imperial Coding Guides include the 1974 Barracuda info?
Quote from: 6bblgt on September 10, 2017, 02:11:00 AM
when the A66 package was introduced for the Challenger mid-September '69 - E60-15 tires were part of the ~$250 package - somewhere around November the package was revised to ~$175 the E60s went away & were replaced by F70-14s.
a friend has a Nov. '69 built 440+6 R/T convertible - the dealership order form spec's out 15x7 rallyes & E60-15s - it's crossed out & noted "N/A convertible" - 14" rallyes & F70-14s came on the car. Figured it had to be mentioned somewhere I hadn't seen yet.
I'll have to look at a couple tires, but maybe the 440 R/T convertible was overweight for what Chrysler Corp. felt the safety factor needed to be on the E60-15s tire load rating
Oh, I suppose that makes sense. I hadn't thought about the load rating. So the notation says that E60 x 15 is not available on a convertible with 440 and air conditioning. Since your friends car has a six pak, then it doesn't have air conditioning. Maybe they should have let him have the tires and made a mistake?
This 1970 Dodge Division Code Guide Challenger has "(10-69)" on the front page. I think that's a date, October 1969.
Later in the guide, it lists the A66 car as coming with F70 x 14 tires with raised white letters, code T87.
The Tire Application section of the guide agrees with that, and also lists F70 x 14 whitewall & E60 x 15 as +Optional.
I think the "+" in the 340 column is some kind of indicator that this is only available in a package. (A66)
Here's what it looks like.
There's a handwritten notation about F70 x 14 being optional with 225 engines. Is this correct? If it's not correct, I can edit out the handwritten notation like it was never there, before putting these up in the resource section for the world to reference.
May 2017
The button to fold the seat forward is always black.
the ground strap on the back of the engine is a '69 "thing", was there one there on the '70 when you took it apart?
Still May 2017
I had to learn a bit about B body disc brakes, so here's a bunch of useful brake info.
Some of this also applies to E bodies. Since this is an E body group, the last picture here is an E body diagram.
I ordered an MBM Brakes master cylinder and booster kit from Mancini Racing. This includes the master cylinder, brake booster, firewall reinforcement plate, and linkages to the pedal. These are all parts that are needed to convert from drum brakes to disc brakes.
Item MBMBCK8536-1 & MBMBCK8536-2 appear very similar in the photograph and item list, and it took me a bit to figure out which item number was correct for my application.
The item fitment description lists the wrong change over year for B bodies, and that added to the confusion. It says that 70 B bodies are the same as 70-74 E & 71-74 B, but this is incorrect. 70 B body is actually like the older 66-70 cars. B body didn't update until 1971.
The difference between these two items is the firewall reinforcement plate. MBMBCK8536-1 comes with the 1966-1970 B body firewall plate, while MBMBCK8536-2 comes with a 1970-1974 E body & 1971-1974 B body firewall plate.
I'm building a 1970 B body here, so I bought the MBMBCK8536-1, which strongly resembles what the factory would have used in a power disc brake car.
The photo provided for MBMBCK8536-2 does not resemble what the factory used in E bodies, so I would be reluctant to use that in an E body. (maybe the picture is wrong?)
Quote from: 6bblgt on September 13, 2017, 09:47:09 PM
the ground strap on the back of the engine is a '69 "thing", was there one there on the '70 when you took it apart?
I just checked various old pictures, and the answer is no. This car originally had a dimple in that location, but it hadn't been drilled for anything.
Would this ground wire also have been used on '68's?
I did deviate from original on a few different things on this car, so I don't mind having an extra ground strap. (though I wouldn't have installed it if I'd realized)
Thanks for pointing it out! That may be helpful to other people reading this thread in the future.
If anyone else sees something incorrect, don't be afraid to say something. I don't mind.
I should probably mention that the non-air conditioning firewall from AMD has one hole drilled for mounting an air conditioning box.
Pay attention so that you can weld that hole up before painting the car.
yes, the '69 & earlier had a ground from the back of the engine to the firewall - in '70 they added the ground from the negative battery cable to the core support
May 2017 Again
Time to figure out the stereo.
First I did some research into what was originally available for B body radios.
This info may not be as complete / thorough as my E body radio post https://forum.e-bodies.org/reference-material/18/radio-options-r11-r22-r26-r31-r32-r33-r35-r36/348/
It's a good starting point for anyone looking for info though, and maybe it will help point someone in the right direction.
B Body Radio Options 1968-1970 & 1971-1974
In 68-70 B bodies Only the AM 8-track cars had a 3 speaker dash (with crossover box and harness)
The AM 8-track was the only Stereo radio available. AM & AM/FM radios in 68-70 B bodies were Mono.
Some 68-70 cars have package trays with symmetrical speaker holes, while most have asymmetrical speaker holes. The difference was do to different vendors supplying the part.
68-70 R31 is the rear speaker option.
68-70 never had dual rear speakers, they had an optional single rear speaker.
That rear speaker is a 5 x 7 speaker on the drivers side.
The passenger side hole was only used for an optional defogger.
The defogger was designed to fit in 6 x 9 speaker holes, so that is why the 68-70 B body defogger intake opening looks like a 6 x 9 speaker hole.
Since dual rear speakers were not available, these cars never had an adapter for dual speakers with defogger.
In 68 the rear speaker fader was next to the radio in the faceplate.
in 69 & 70 the rear speaker fader was on the bottom of the dash frame, to the left of the ashtray.
Stereo radios with a rear speaker used a dual pot fader, while mono radios with a rear speaker used a single pot fader.
71-74 B bodies never had a 3 speaker dash, not even on cars with a Stereo radio. Instead, a Stereo radio came with a single dash speaker and a drivers rear speaker.
71-72 B bodies could have...
mono AM single dash speaker
mono AM single dash speaker + drivers rear speaker
mono AM single dash speaker with cassette player (only 71-72, not a listed option in 73-74)
mono AM single dash speaker with cassette player + drivers rear speaker (only 71-72, not a listed option in 73-74)
Stereo AM/FM single dash speaker + drivers rear speaker
Stereo AM/FM single dash speaker with cassette player + drivers rear speaker
A Microphone is listed as being optional only with cassette players, and only for 1971. (likely available over the counter for other years)
Defogger was optional and used the passenger side package tray hole as an intake, same as in previous years.
The package tray is missing a provision for mounting the dual speaker with defogger adapter, these cars never had an adapter for dual speakers with defogger.
73-74 B bodies could have...
mono AM single dash speaker
mono AM single dash speaker + drivers rear speaker
mono AM/FM single dash speaker (new for 73-74)
mono AM/FM single dash speaker + drivers rear speaker (new for 73-74)
Stereo AM/FM single dash speaker + drivers rear speaker
Stereo AM/FM single dash speaker with cassette player + drivers rear speaker (only 71-73, not a listed option in 74)
Defogger was optional and used the passenger side package tray hole as an intake, same as in previous years.
The package tray is missing a provision for mounting the dual speaker with defogger adapter, these cars never had an adapter for dual speakers with defogger.
The adapter for dual speakers with a defogger was only used on E bodies & C bodies. (same part on both cars)
Original speakers were 8 ohm
You never want to run 4 ohm total impedance speakers with these old original radios. It will burn up the radios output transformer over time.
Modern aftermarket radios are designed to handle modern 4 ohm speakers. (you could use 8 ohm speakers with a modern radio, but it would be quiet)
The new reproduction B body radios have modern internals and can handle 4 or 8 ohm speakers.
Turnswitch.com has an excellent selection of 4 ohm & 8 ohm speakers that are designed to fit classic cars without cutting your car or dash. They accomplish this by using smaller super magnets like inside computers, instead of using larger less powerful ceramic magnets that are typically found on aftermarket speakers.
Having original speakers reconed isn't a great option if you plan to actually listen to the radio because the old magnet will never be as good as it used to be.
I decided to use a Retro Radio power antenna, which I modified a bit. Details on that can be found here.
https://forum.e-bodies.org/electrical-and-audio/11/power-antenna-using-original-antenna-bezel/3609/msg52748#new
Though this car was originally a Stereo 8-track car with the 3 speaker dash, I decided to go with a reproduction 1970 AM/FM with all modern internals. It has Bluetooth and an auxiliary input on the back for my MP3 player.
The 1970 AM/FM B body radio is a very desirable one year only radio, and I'll be glad to use my 3 speaker dash with the modern internals.
Antique Automobile Radio is the manufacturer. http://www.radiosforoldcars.com/whoF.htm
For Speakers, I went to Turnswitch.com and ordered a pair of the 3.5 inch square 8 ohm speakers for the stereo dash locations, and a 4x10 Mopar B body Stereo High Output 8 ohm for the dash center (it's a bracket that holds two 8 ohm round speakers in the original 4x10 location, without interfering with any of the heater cables under the dash).
This gives me four 8 ohm dash speakers, that I've wired in parallel so that the left pair is a 4 ohm load, and the right pair is a 4 ohm load. The reproduction radio has modern internals which can handle a 4 ohm load, so this should sound great!
The 3.5 inch square outboard speakers need a bass blocker installed in line with the speaker wire so that they don't distort from low bass notes. The center dash speakers can handle the low notes and don't need the bass blockers.
I also ordered a pair of the SX69 coaxial 6x9 oval speakers, which will mount under the package tray just fine without any cutting or drilling.
Wiring Diagram pictured below.
The wiring grommet that comes with the power antenna fits the factory hole in the kick panel sheet metal.
The top of the power antenna is held by the fender.
A metal bracket was made to hold the bottom of the power antenna. It goes over these two door hinge bolts that are sticking out, and then I put nuts on them to hold the bracket in place. (hinge bolts marked with red arrows in pic below. Not my car in this pic, just grabbed this off the internet to show the door hinge bolts) The metal bracket goes forward from these hinge bolts, and down to the bottom of the antenna, where it bends horizontal to fasten to the bottom of the antenna.
Next the bracket was painted Plum Crazy to match the car, and everything was installed.
July 2017
Suspension
Rebuilt the 8.75 rear end with 3.55:1 gears and a Sure Grip.
B body & E body suspensions are extremely similar. I'd like to do a more detailed suspension write up in the future, but for now, here's the short version.
With the car all taken apart, I wasn't able to weigh the car for use in the suspension calculations, so I had to do a little educated guesswork.
A friend weighed a 1970 Hemi GTX, and that gave me something to guess in the ballpark with. It weighed 3841 pounds without a driver, 2177 on the front wheels = 54%, and 1845 on the rear wheels = 46%.
I looked up engine weights, and came up with 765 pounds for a Hemi, and 620 pounds for a 383, so I'm guessing about 145 pounds off the front weight of my 70 Road Runner.
With a 181 pound driver, I'm guessing the 70 Road Runner should weigh about 3877 pounds. I'm guessing 2094 on the front wheels = 54%, and 1783 on the rear wheels = 46%.
OK, now I have an educated guess at what the car should weigh. Ideally, you'd just weigh the car.
I wanted improved handling, so stock torsion bars are to soft for my tastes, but at the same time, this isn't a race car that's going to be driven on a perfectly smooth track. This will be a fun street driven car. I was aiming for torsion bars that were stiff enough to have a spring rate of about 10% of the front end weight, without going over 10%. I selected Firm Feel 1.00 inch diameter torsion bars, which have a spring rate that is 8.9% of my estimated front end weight.
I wanted to match that 8.9% figure for the spring rate of the leaf springs supporting the rear weight. The math said that I needed 160 pound spring rate (each) leaf springs to accomplish this.
I've heard that the Mopar Performance Super Stock springs are 160 pound spring rate, but I've also heard that they're intended to be race parts, so they don't have the durability of a part designed for long term street use, and they sag after a few years. They also require different spring mounts because they're not the same length as original springs, and that also affects the way they function.
I decided to have Firm Feel custom make leaf springs for me. They're original length to use the stock spring mounts, the spring rate I specified, and should be durable enough for long term use on the street. I don't plan to replace my leaf springs every 3 years like some race cars might.
The stock front sway bar is better than nothing, but simply isn't large enough diameter. I chose a Firm Feel 1.125 diameter front sway bar.
Doing the math, this gave me a front roll bias of 78%, which according to the theoretical handling line, would be perfect for a car with 54.5% of the total car weight on the front wheels.
If my car weight is actually 54% on the front like I guessed, then I'll be just a little bit on the oversteer side of the line (the less safe side). Since the car weight was guesswork though, I'm going to start with this and check the actual car weight when it's finally all put together.
If I end up with 54.5% to 55.5% of my total car weight on the front wheels, then I'll run this setup as is.
If I end up with 53% to 54% of my total car weight on the front wheels, then I'll change to a Firm Feel 1.25 diameter front sway bar.
If I end up with 56% to 57% of my total car weight on the front wheels, then I'll add a Firm Feel .75 diameter rear sway bar.
Rear sway bars were never originally available on these cars, but Firm Feel does make them.
These figures will keep me close to the theoretical handling line, or just on the safer understeer side of the line.
I'm running Firm Feel tubular upper control arms with offset bushings installed for more caster. This car will have plenty of caster adjustment available. I'm aiming for 6 degrees positive caster and negative .6 degree camber.
I think the Hotchkiss tubular upper control arms are the best performing upper control arms for a Mopar, but the pivot relocation which gives them an advantage also creates additional effort during alignments, and I didn't want to hassle with that. (plus they're very expensive)
I haven't tried the Magnum Force tubular upper control arms, but I've heard good things about them, including that they provide +4 degrees of caster instead of the +3 you get from Firm Feel. I would seriously consider using those on a future build, without the problem solver bushings, and you might still be able to hit +5 degrees caster if you're lucky, which is pretty good.
I'm running Bilstein shocks.
I've welded plates to the bottom of the lower control arms to keep their U shape from flexing during hard cornering.
I've also installed Firm Feels idler arm roller bearings, and steering box sector shaft support, to help prevent the K frame from flexing due to the steering forces.
I want this car to still look very original, so I've kept that in mind while choosing these modifications. Extremely few people will notice torsion bar diameter or sway bar diameter, or that the leaf springs are very slightly different. Tubular upper control arms aren't really noticeable unless your looking up from underneath the car.
Continuing with this original appearing theme, the car will ride on 15 inch rallye wheels. I didn't want to go with a larger than original wheel on this car. I am using modern steel belted radial tires though, and all the wheel lugs are right hand threaded.
The biggest disc brakes that will fit inside the 15 inch rallyes is 11.75 inch rotors. Consider it done.
11 inch drums on the back.
Everything you do is done so well! :clapping: There is nothing that is overlooked or not thoughts about. Keep up the great work. :banana:
July 2017
The car is finally on the ground again, followed by installing the headliner.
July 2017
Installing various parts, and all the under dash stuff.
Note the Heater Box Factory OK inspection tag. A little over 10 years ago, I was able to speak with Frank, who happened to be one of the Chrysler quality control inspectors back when these cars were built. His job every day was to inspect heater boxes. They came in on pallets, and he was supposed to inspect a certain percent of the boxes on every pallet. He had a pile of these green tags, and a ball point pen to write on them. He didn't always sign the tag. If the box got a tag, that means it was checked. Only heater boxes that were inspected received the green tag, so not every car has one of these.
July 2017
The Dash
July 2017
Dash Install
sitting on the side bolts and held in place at the center by a metal wire with a hook bent on each end, so that everything can be plugged in and hooked up. Then just remove the wire, tilt the dash up into place, and install the fasteners.
The attention to the details is impressive! :bravo:
July 2017
Engine Bay & Engine Install
That distributor is just there to plug the hole in the engine. I used a different distributer with a tan cap.
The exhaust manifolds were coated in Cast Blast before being painted orange. When the orange burns off the manifolds, the cast blast grey will still be there to protect them from rusting.
July 2017
A few more pics of some of the suspension items that I mentioned earlier.
I probably should have duplicated the original cosmoline look on the lower control arms. Oh well.
The level you are taking it is amazing. Do you plan to just show it or will you also drive it?
Quote from: Cuda Cody on September 20, 2017, 07:58:44 AM
The level you are taking it is amazing. Do you plan to just show it or will you also drive it?
I like vehicles that stand out from the everyday crowd. My favorite thing about these vehicles is driving them around. This car is definitely meant for driving. For that reason, it's very important to me that the vehicles be durable and reliable. I like the classic looks, and the little details that catch peoples eye, but I also like power disc brakes, improved handling, and undercoating. I enjoy looking at a factory style primer and overspray car bottom, but as much as I like to drive them, I just think undercoating is a good idea. I also tend to be less sloppy than original as far as overspray, orange peel, paint runs, etc. go. I drove my 70 Challenger for a while with little manual drum brakes, and I just have a hard time imagining myself ever building a car without power disc brakes.
My second favorite thing about these is building them.
My third favorite thing would be car shows. This car will be driven to any shows, not trailered. A car show is a nice excuse for a road trip. It's great to meet up with old friends, and let the public look at the car. The people at car shows are more likely to recognize what they're looking at. On the other hand, when you enjoy standing out from the crowd, being parked in a row of similar vehicles surrounded by people who also have one just isn't quite the same.
This Road Runner is actually being built for my Dad. He'll probably drive it more than me, but we'll definitely take it to some shows during the first year or so. I might drive the 70 'Cuda if I don't ride with him. It would be nice to get a magazine article or something, but I don't know if it will catch their eye or not.
Beautiful car and restoration! :twothumbsup:
August 2017
Install steering column, grill, & front bumper
Paint hood
Paint V21 organisol performance hood treatment
Install tail lights, rear bumper, & exhaust with tips from Accurate Exhaust
Install side glass
Install rear window, door panels & rear seat
Install hood pins
did the Road Runner originally have power disc brakes?
did it originally have "inner-fender" side brake lines on the master cylinder?
if yes, what's the car's SPD & plant?
Armrests
This car was missing all of it's armrests when I got it. That meant I had to do some research to figure out what I was supposed to have.
1. Front and rear armrest pads are the same length on this car.
2. The white interior is supposed to have white armrest pads front and back.
3. The rear armrest pads always have ashtrays.
4. The rear armrest pads should be installed with the ashtrays toward the front of the car.
5. Standard armrest bases are color keyed to the interior on 1970 Belvederes & RM21 Road Runner Coupes (has B pillar).
6. 1970 Belvedere sedans could get chromed armrest bases only with the extra cost Custom Trim Package.
7. 1970 RM21 Road Runner Coupes (has B pillar) could get chromed armrest bases only with the extra cost Road Runner Décor Package.
8. 1970 Satellites, Sport Satellites, GTXs, & RM23 Road Runner hardtops (no B pillar) had standard chromed armrest bases.
That was more complex than I expected!
Not having any of these parts, I went to order reproductions. black or white front armrest pads are available. Only black armrest pads are available with ashtrays installed. Even though I never intend to use the ashtrays, I want to have them because every car had them, and it would just be wrong to not have them. I'd really rather not paint a black armrest pad white though.
Side Note: Door lock knobs are supposed to be white on a white interior car. Only black door lock knobs are available reproduction. I did not want to paint the black door lock knobs white because this car will be driven, and I don't expect the paint would hold up as well as I'd like. I've decided to leave my door lock knobs black for now. In the future, I may pull one off, use it to make a silicone mold, and resin/plastic cast my own white door lock knobs.
Back to the armrest pads now. I decided to get 4 white reproduction armrest pads, and install ashtrays into two of them myself.
I grabbed on of the rear armrests out of my Satellite parts car for an example to work off of.
1. Place the ashtray bezel upside down on the armrest, located where it's supposed to go.
2. Trace around the inside of the bezel where the ashtray goes. This marks the area that needs removed for the ashtray.
3. I used a Dremel tool to grind out the part of the pad that needed removed.
4. Surprise! Unlike the originals, the reproduction has a metal reinforcement inside, and it's in the way.
5. I put a little cut off wheel in the Dremel, and removed the metal that was in the way.
6. Continue grinding the rest of the foam out, to the depth needed for the ashtray.
7. Test fit the bezel & ashtray into the armrest pad. The bezel is very flat, and the armrest pad has a slight crown. Some slight adjustments with soft jaw pliers will do wonders for fitment.
8. Some of the bezel retaining tabs were longer than others. The shorter tabs held tighter for me, so on the second armrest pad, I cut all the bezel retaining tabs down to the short size, and got a much tighter fit than what I achieved on the first armrest pad.
9. Bend the bezel retaining tabs over into the armrest pad to hold the bezel in place. Squeeze them nice and tight.
10. Install ashtray
Quote from: 6bblgt on September 20, 2017, 09:47:01 PM
did the Road Runner originally have power disc brakes?
did it originally have "inner-fender" side brake lines on the master cylinder?
if yes, what's the car's SPD & plant?
Quote from: cataclysm80 on September 05, 2017, 02:33:49 AM
October 2016
Options being Added to the car
Power Front Disc Brakes (11.75 inch, so actually larger than factory) The car originally had manual drum brakes on all four corners.
Manual Drums, as mentioned earlier. Since I planned a disc brake upgrade, I didn't spend much time analyzing the master cylinder which came on the car, to see if it was original or a replacement part. The wiring harness and engine aren't original in this picture, so the master cylinder is anyone's guess. It does appear to have inner fender side brake lines though.
Here's the relevant pics again.
Still August 2017
Installed front license plate
Installed armrests, carpet, pistol grip shifter, passenger seat, seatbelts, hood mounted turn signal indicators, and most of the other A01 Light Package stuff, windshield, etc.
Installed Go-Wing Spoiler
Received and installed carburetor from Harms Automotive, and an NOS choke
(that's still not the right distributor in these pics, it's just there to fill the hole in the engine)
August 2017 Again
Installed reflective white tail panel stripe
Here's where the ground wire for the steering column goes.
Also had to make sure that the voltage regulator had a good ground on the firewall, and that the tail light housings had a good ground to the body. All that fresh paint gets in the way of good grounds sometimes.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this one. Is the painted screw installed at the correct end of the fender tag?
Quote from: cataclysm80 on September 21, 2017, 01:00:22 AM
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this one. Is the painted screw installed at the correct end of the fender tag?
no, it should be on the bent end
Quote from: 6bblgt on September 21, 2017, 01:51:49 AM
Quote from: cataclysm80 on September 21, 2017, 01:00:22 AM
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this one. Is the painted screw installed at the correct end of the fender tag?
no, it should be on the bent end
:iagree: :stop:
:iagree: The painted screw was holding the tag down while it was painted so it's the only one that gets paint.
I agree that it should be on the bent end, I was just having trouble deciding which end of this tag was the bent end.
Both ends are a little mangled.
I think that might be an inspectors stamp at the right though.
I'm going to go ahead and swap the two screws.
Thanks!
August 31st 2017
It's finally time to start the engine and burn off some of that orange paint on the exhaust manifolds
September 2017
There's still some odds and ends left to do...
get an alignment
fender bird decals
door VIN decal
install console
find a wheel for the spare tire
maybe a few other things
I'm beyond impressed with everything you did. Absolutely beautiful job man. :bravo:
I'm looking for the correct location to mount a 1970 Road Runner trunk light socket.
I have the switch installed, but I'm not quite sure where to drill the screw hole to mount the light socket.
My original sheet metal was replaced with an AMD panel, and now I need to drill the hole somewhere.
Pics and/or measurements would be great.
@anlauto (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/anlauto_19) I feel like you would know the answer to this question.
Here's where I put it on a 70 GTX, but I don't have any better pictures or measurements....I'm more of an E Body guy :))
Quote from: anlauto on October 04, 2017, 11:42:14 AM
Here's where I put it on a 70 GTX, but I don't have any better pictures or measurements....I'm more of an E Body guy :))
That doesn't look "correct", it may be the right screw hole but the bulb shouldn't be visible from above, it is hidden below the speaker shelf & lights the trunk cavity without having the overpowering glare from the bulb... Only B body I have is a vert so currently I'm no help....
Yea I agree, the bulb is actually not visible when standing behind the car with the trunk open, it is under the lip, however that picture was taken at a very low angle.
I thought at the time it should have gone further back, but I used the original hole that was there. :alan2cents:
I think they are closer to one side or the other but it's been a few decades since I owned an original one.
Great looking car! I assume it didn't come with the dust trail stripe along the side...just the bird on the fender?
The dust trail stripe is so cool, I would be tempted to add it.
here's the trunk light in a '69 LA built RR
it can rotate on the screw out of line-of-sight
this is the first car I've seen with "twist" barrel clips for the connection - the glove box light has the same connection
is it a LA "thing" or are all '69s similar
Awesome work! I have a `70 road runner FC7 car that`s been on hold for years that I need to get back working o this winter, Question for you - I can't see in the pics but do you have that oversize vacuum canister for your distributer? I have conflicting info as to what cars have them, some say all `70 383hp cars should and others say only with Cal emissions.
Quote from: Burdar on October 05, 2017, 07:02:55 AM
Great looking car! I assume it didn't come with the dust trail stripe along the side...just the bird on the fender?
The dust trail stripe is so cool, I would be tempted to add it.
It IS actually a factory dust trail stripe car. I really like those stripes. My Dad likes them when viewed from far away, but doesn't like them when viewed from up close. Since this car is built for him, the dust trail stripes have to stay off (for now).
It will just have the fender birds until I can talk him into the whole stripe.
Quote from: torredcuda on October 06, 2017, 04:24:37 PM
Question for you - I can't see in the pics but do you have that oversize vacuum canister for your distributer? I have conflicting info as to what cars have them, some say all `70 383hp cars should and others say only with Cal emissions.
Can you post a pic of what the oversized vacuum canister looks like?
My original distributor was long gone. I wanted electronic ignition, so I wasn't to stressed about finding the exact correct original 1970 distributor. I didn't like the look of any of the various polished billet distributors, so I just picked up a distributor at the local auto parts store. I was surprised how cheap it was. Then I installed a Pertronix kit into it for electronic ignition.
I did use a tan colored cap similar to original and new date coded sparkplug wires though.
I suspect that the answer to your question might be found in the parts manual. If something is different, it would have a different part number, and list the application for that part number. The parts manual is available for free download in the references section of this forum.
I imagine he's asking about this... 70-71 only, I believe it's just a California thing...
Yes, that is the one. I`ve heard it was only Cal emmisions but I`ve seen a number of original cars with them and they are not coded for it on the fender tag. I`ll have to find my folder with th e info as I forget the code for it.
The research that I have done says all 70 383 and 440 engines except 6 paks had the timing retard solenoid. In 71 the 6 paks had them also. I was researching Challengers, Dodge engines, so I don,t know if there was a difference for Plymouths.
Quote from: 6bblgt on September 09, 2017, 03:53:08 AM
and to take this further off-topic
this is an odd cooling combination, not seen often - or maybe anywhere else "documented"
an export ordered & presumably delivered to southeast Asia when new
Challenger R/T convertible 383HP 4-speed w/3.55s (NO mention of an axle package :rubeyes:)
&
N45 - FAN-SOLID DRIVE
N51 - COOLING PACKAGE MAX. LESS FAN
I think this is the "HI-CAPACITY" & it's a 26" radiator
wonder what springs & torsion bars this R/T came with??
Quote from: cataclysm80 on September 09, 2017, 11:19:08 PM
I just looked this ^ over. WOW, that's a cool car! (though I'd prefer a different color)
Galen's White Book lists N45 as 1969 to 1971 High Capacity Fan, and lists N51 as Max Cooling.
I'm not quite sure where you'd put it on the order form, but apparently N45 gets you the High Capacity Fan.
I wonder if export cars used a different order form?
That particular car having N45 High Capacity Fan WITH N51 Max Cooling is what the Factory Service Manual describes as level 5 Trailer Towing Cooling.
Interesting that it seems to have been ordered without the A35 Trailer Towing Package, similar to how the 3.55 axle was ordered without the A36 Axle Package.
It looks like the only things in the Axle Package that weren't on the car are the torque drive with fan, and possibly the Extra Heavy Duty Suspension.
Here is the Axle Availability page from the 1970 Dodge Division Code Guide for Challengers.
It lists D56 as being optional on 340 with Auto trans or 4 speed manual trans.
I suppose that availability of this option could have changed over the course of the year.
@6bblgt (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/6bblgt_211) I stumbled across something that mentioned Max Cooling without a Fan, and thought that it might interest you.
It's on Barry's website. Here's a link, but the relevant pic is posted below. http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/dealerships/1970-DealershipsPlymouthOrderingInfo-08.shtml
Also, here is a broadcast sheet for a 1970 'Cuda that's coded for N51 Max Cooling Less Fan. (It is an axle package car, and coded for a typical torque drive fan.)
Quote from: cataclysm80 on September 05, 2017, 01:36:18 AM
About a week later, someone came by who was seriously interested. He has a Lemon Twist 1970 GTX with a 440 four barrel. He's had it since the early 70's. He's the second owner, but it's a northern car and really rusted out bad. It's rusted enough that the body is sagging and holding the doors closed. He wants to find a good body to fix his car with. To late, I'm keeping this one. He gave me his contact info in case I changed my mind. I visit with him occasionally. He's getting pretty old, I hope he can build his car someday.
Quote from: cataclysm80 on September 05, 2017, 01:36:18 AM
Picked up this solid 1970 Satellite for a parts car. I wanted the nice trunk lid, and a few other things. Maybe when I'm done with it, the guy up the road who wants to fix his 70 440 GTX will want what's left.
Well, I drove the purple Road Runner over to see the old man down the road, and offer him the 70 Satellite parts car.
He loved the Road Runner, and liked the Satellite, but he thought it over and decided that as much as he loves his GTX, he's just to old to go through all that effort of fixing it up. He can't stand to see his car get parted out or scrapped though, and he approves of my workmanship, so instead of buying a parts car from me, he wanted to sell me his GTX, and made me an offer I just couldn't refuse.
He only requests that I put it with all my spare parts, and find it a good home with someone who will fix it up.
Now I have a 70 GTX.
I had it for sale for a few months, as a pair with the parts car, etc., handing out flyers at car shows, but the few people who came to look at it were scared away by the severe rust.
As you can see from this Road Runner project, I don't mind taking a car down to nothing and building it back up, so I've decided that if this GTX is going to be saved, I better get to work.
Here we go again...
The old man was the second owner, and he bought it in California in 1971 from a used car lot.
It was Lemon Twist when he bought it, with a black vinyl top, and stayed that way the whole time he had it.
He wasn't easy on it, he drove it like it was a muscle car. It was real fast, to the point that the police had to chase him down with a helicopter to catch him, and they impounded the car for 6 months. After that, he moved from California to the rust belt, and that's where all the rust came from.
Over the years, he blew the engine and replaced it with another 440, and he blew the transmission a few times, but never had to touch the rear end.
The cars never been wrecked, but he hit a curb once and had to replace a lower control arm.
The cars been off the road for 18 years.
I've decoded it, and it's a real 1970 GTX. It's a 440 four barrel with 4 speed manual transmission and pistol grip shifter. Dana Track Pack Performance axle package. Charcoal and black bucket seat interior. No console, radio delete, stripe delete, no hood pins, no tachometer or clock, no extra cost upgrades at all beyond the manual transmission which required an axle package. Custom ordered "Sold Car" all business sleeper GTX. The original color is EB7 blue.
It's like someone walked into the Plymouth dealership and said "Gimme the biggest engine you've got with a four barrel carb and a four speed with nothing else.", and the salesman said "That's gonna hafta be a GTX."
So that was interesting that an EB7 car had already been painted yellow when the second owner bought it in 1971. It was barely 1 year old.
The engine bay and trunk (what's left of it) are still blue. There's blue under where the wheel opening moldings were. Apparently those were just taped off when the yellow was applied. Looks like the fenders are original, and all the other metal, not wrecked. Why repaint the car? It seems like an unnecessary expense. I checked all the body numbers, and they match the door sticker, VIN, fender tag, and title, no problem.
The back seat contained a broadcast sheet for a 1968 Plymouth B body built at a different assembly plant, and the old man swears he never had it out. Must have been swapped during the repaint before he bought the car.
Looking at all the evidence, I suspect this was someone's race car. Someone probably bought this new, tossed out the back seat for weight savings, painted letters on the side of the car, and went drag racing for a year. This is a GTX, not a grocery getter.
That's my guess for why the used car lot needed to find a back seat and repaint the car. It wouldn't surprise me if the racer had done a little engine work also, and that's why the car seemed so fast.
So, I'm cutting out the rusty parts, and cutting some usable stuff off the parts car, and I've cut some more usable parts off at a Mopar junkyard, and placed a big AMD sheet metal order yesterday for what was left.
I don't really need another 1970 B body, but I've got to at least get this through the metal work so that buyers don't run away scared of the rust. I might go ahead and build the whole thing and run it through an auction just to see what happens.
Any suggestions for how I should build it?
Original color?
Should I add a stripe or leave it stripe delete?
Do I try to replicate the original 440 four barrel look, or should I throw on a six pack?
Is adding an Air Grabber worth the cost if I'm going to auction the car?
Should I upgrade to power disc brakes or leave it all drums?
Etc...
No question in my mind the disc brakes are a must , I would go back to B7 , 6 pack is a lot of $$ for no real gain , I would use a Holley street dom intake with a Proform carb , stripes are easy to add or delete in the future but I like the side stripe :alan2cents:
:iagree: Discs, stripe, B7 looks so good! Also, don't kill yourself with acquiring expensive parts that you do not have if you are not going for a full OEM restoration.
Well, I'm still an E body guy.
This 1970 Road Runner is a great car. You can see the build details above in this topic.
This car is NOT your typical flipper cutting corners to make a profit. No pigs in lipstick here. This was built right, and built to last, because we wanted to keep it.
Everything has been gone through, and it's a quality build, documented with hundreds of photos and reference material, way more info than what's seen here.
It has just about everything you'd want.
It's a 383 car, but it has all the hemi suspension reinforcements and then some, Hemi fuel sending unit with 3/8 fuel line, and the same radiator as the hemi, so if you really wanted a bigger engine like a hemi or 440-6, it's a pretty straight forward swap, and you can enjoy driving the 383 in the meantime. It's ready to go, start it up and drive away with a smile.
Air Grabber, 4 speed pistol grip, axle package, rallye gauges, woodgrain steering wheel, 3 speaker stereo dash, light package, hood pins, rear spoiler, upgraded 11.75 rotor power disc brakes, Firm Feel Stage 3 power steering, bigger sway bar, etc. etc.
But I'm an E body guy, and I just don't drive this car very much. It sits in the garage, about 750 miles on it since the restoration.
Someone should be driving this around. It's crossing the auction block at Mecum Indianapolis next week
https://www.mecum.com/lots/553648/1970-plymouth-road-runner/
Great car! :inlove:
Great car and awesome restoration and I`ll be referring to it a lot since I`m currently restoring my `70 383,727 FC7 road runner but wow on the $115-$140k estimate! :wowzers:
That estimate caused my jaw to drop too. A 383 roadrunner HT is six figures now?
I guess I screwed up in the late 80s. My friend Marty in high school had a 70 Roadrunner 383 4 speed. F8, fairly solid with a little rust. He decided to rebuild the engine and broke something in the block when trying to install the camshaft. After that the car sat. 7 or 8 years later, in the late 80s, I ran into Marty in a bar, and he asked me if I was interested in his car. $200!
I had no interest or space for a project.
Not long after that, I spotted the car on a roll off. I hope it was heading to a new owner, not the junkyard!
I guess I should have bought it!
Good luck at Mecum!
Earlier this year at Mecum Kissimmee, a 1969 Road Runner Hardtop with 383 Air Grabber sold for $142,000.
It's has Bronze paint with tan interior, an automatic transmission, and doesn't have rallye gauges.
https://www.mecum.com/lots/533488/1969-plymouth-road-runner/
It seems like high impact paint with white interior, pistol grip four speed manual transmission, and rallye gauges would be worth more.
Not to mention all the other extra options and upgrades.
You really have to build them well to get that kind of money though, and that's not cheap.
I sent a USB drive with all the restoration pictures, history, decode, etc. to Mecum with the car, so that the new owner would have that stuff.
I also included a link to this post.
There's a couple things I forgot to put on the USB drive, so I'm going to post them here, in hopes that the new owner finds them.
Maybe the rest of you will enjoy seeing them also.
This first one is how the pictures are organized on the USB drive.
This one's probably not very interesting to most of you, but if you're looking for suggestions on how to keep your restoration photos in chronological order, here's one idea.
That seems nuts, I don't see that or any automatic 383 roadrunner as being worth much more than $50K.
Not trying to disparage your car, I'm just saying if 383 roadrunners are now 6 figure cars, it's time to find a new hobby. Something cheaper like a plane, lakefront villa, or yacht. :drunk:
I'd have to sell my no rust ever 440 six pack 4 speed super track Pak Challenger first to pursue one of those cheaper new hobbies, the one I had advertised for well under 6 figures for years with only a few tire kickers, flippers and picture collectors responding to my ads.
That experience left me feeling pretty cynical about the car market, and the games I regularly see the auction houses playing has me suspicious of many alleged sales they show too.
But it only takes 2 drunks with deep pockets so you never know, worth a try!
Have a number in mind you'll take if they try to get you to drop the reserve with a reduced commission, your "out the door" sale price. They also like to shill bid up to near reserve hoping a real bid will come in at reserve. I've known sellers who were on stage trying to get Mecum to drop the reserve, and got ignored. The bid wasn't "real money" is why they wouldn't allow the seller to drop the reserve. So if your car bids high but doesn't hit reserve and they didn't twist your arm to drop it, you can say "I see what you did there" as your car goes off stage to the bid goes on area. :alan2cents:
As soon as the restoration was finished in 2017, we took the car to the Don Garlits show (Mopars with Big Daddy) near Ocala Florida.
It's a pretty good annual show of about 500 Mopars, mostly muscle cars.
It was normally held at Don Garlit's Museum of Drag Racing, but the show had outgrown that venue since the farmer next door didn't want spectators parking in the field anymore, so this was the first year that it was held at the Florida Horse Park about 2 miles north of the Drag Racing Museum. If I remember correctly, Herb McCandless was the guest of honor that year.
On the first day of the show, I drove the 1970 'Cuda, and my dad drove the Road Runner.
The Road Runner won 2nd Place in the Participant's Choice competition.
The 'Cuda won 3rd Place in the Participant's Choice competition.
The second day of the show, my dad and I rode together in the Road Runner, and won 3rd Place in the Judged Competition.
The Judged Competition trophy is the one with the American flags on the columns.
OK, now I'm going to include in depth suspension details.
I'm going to start with an article I wrote about Mopar suspension.
It's meant to teach the average car guy how to select suspension parts that will improve their car's handling, making it more fun to drive.
It's a lengthy article, but if you grab a calculator and follow along, you'll have a pretty firm grasp on Mopar suspensions by the end of the article.
Anyone can do this, even you. Just take one step at a time.
At the end of the article, I'll have the suspension details for this particular 1970 Road Runner.
Let's get started... :yes:
Suspension Basics
Good handling is all about controlling how the car's center of gravity pivots around the roll center.
Center of Gravity: The center of gravity for the whole car is the exact center of the cars weight. It's an imaginary point in space, but if you could lift the car and support it by a single post, the center of gravity is where you would need to position the post so that the car would be balanced and not fall off the post.
However, cars aren't supported in the center like a unicycle, they're supported by a front axle and a rear axle. If you could lift the car and support it by a post at the front axle and a second post at the rear axle, so that the car is perfectly balanced and doesn't fall off the posts, the position of those posts is the center of gravity for each axle.
If you drew a line through the front axle center of gravity, and the rear axle center of gravity, the whole car center of gravity would be between them on that line (closer to the front because the front of the car is heavier). If you could skewer the car on this line like a shish kabob, all sides would weigh equally so that the car would not spin from one side being heavier. Instead it would be perfectly balanced, and it could easily be turned by hand.
It can be difficult to locate the exact center of gravity, but to give you a rough idea, the front axle center of gravity is usually located about where the crankshaft is at, and the rear axle center of gravity is usually located about where the trunk floor is at.
If you want to try and calculate center of gravity more accurately, here's a website.
http://www.longacreracing.com/technical-articles.aspx?item=42586
Roll Center: The roll center is the point that the car's weight pivots around. It's an imaginary point in space, and its location is determined by the suspension geometry of the car.
To find the front roll center, draw a line through the upper and lower control arms for one front wheel, with the intersection of those lines being the instantaneous center. Then draw a line from there back to the center of the tire contact patch (the contact patch is where a line through both ball joints meets the ground under the tire). Now do the same for the other front wheel. The lines between the instantaneous centers and the tire contact patches will intersect at the roll center.
The distance between the center of gravity and the roll center, works like a lever when the car is cornering.
The roll center is the fulcrum of the lever.
The distance between the center of gravity and the roll center, is the length of the lever.
The weight of the car is the force that's being applied to the lever.
Now that you understand how it works, you can see that there are two ways to improve handling here.
1. Reduce the cars weight. This means you'll be applying less force to the lever during cornering.
2. Reduce the distance between the center of gravity and the roll center. (usually by lowering the car)
This means your weight will have less leverage during cornering.
Additionally, the car will have suspension springs, which will help to resist these cornering forces.
A few things to take care of before proceeding...
Before choosing your suspension springs, there are a few things you should do.
1. Select the wheels and tires that you want to run.
Wheel size can limit your brake selection.
Tire sidewall profile affects handling. (low profile is more firm)
2. Do any brake upgrades. Being able to stop is important.
11.75" rotors should fit in 15" wheels, or if you have bigger wheels, you can get bigger brakes.
3. If you want to remove any weight from the car, or shift any weight from the front to the back, now is the time.
Try to have 50% to 55% of the total car weight being supported by the front tires. You can check your work on a weigh scale at the local truck stop, dump, or recycling center. Get a weight with only the front wheels on the scale, and get another weight with the whole car on the scale.
(Front weight ÷ total weight) x 100 = front weight % This is called Front Weight Bias.
These weight adjustments change the center of gravity for your car. Every car is a little different, depending on what options it has and what upgrades have been performed. Weighing your own car will give you the best results. Copying someone else's suspension setup probably won't be a perfect match for your car, especially if they were just guessing when they put it together.
Selecting Suspension Springs: Spring Rate
The main purpose of the suspension springs is to support the weight of the car.
Springs are chosen by their spring rate.
Spring rate is the number of pounds required to compress the spring 1 inch.
Stiffer springs require more weight to compress than soft springs.
You could also view this as the pounds of force that the spring pushes with after it's been compressed one inch. It's the same thing.
Motion Ratio
The distance that the spring moves (compresses or expands) is not necessarily the same amount that the wheel moves.
This picture of a coil spring shows that the distance the spring moves (ds) is not the same as the distance that the wheel moves (dw).
Motion ratio can be calculated by measuring the distance between the pivot point and spring, and dividing that by the distance between the pivot point and wheel.
For example, if the distance between the pivot and the spring was 4 inches, and the distance between the pivot and the wheel was 10 inches, then 4 ÷ 10 = .4 Motion Ratio.
This means that for every 1 inch that the wheel moves, the spring will only move .4 inches.
The wheel would need to move 2.5 inches in order to compress the spring 1 inch.
The Spring Rate is the force required on the spring to compress it 1 inch.
The Wheel Rate is the force required to compress the wheel 1 inch.
(Motion Ratio x Motion Ratio) x Spring Rate = Wheel Rate
Continuing the example from above, if the Spring Rate is 100 pounds, then
(.4 Motion Ratio x .4 Motion Ratio = .16) x 100 Spring Rate = 16 pound Wheel Rate.
This is the power of leverage.
16 pounds will move the wheel 1 inch. Another 16 pounds will move it another inch. Another 8 pounds will move it a half inch. 16 + 16 + 8 = 40 pounds to move the wheel 2.5 inches.
As we've said, 2.5 inches of wheel movement = 1 inch of spring movement.
100 pound per inch Spring Rate x .4 Motion Ratio = 40 pounds per 2.5 inches at the wheel.
You can see that it all works out, any way you look at it.
Mopars don't use coil springs though, they use torsion bars.
Torsion Bars
Torsion bars are a different type of spring.
1962 to 1972 B bodies & 1970 to 1974 E bodies all use torsion bars with an overall length of 41 inches.
The hexes on each end of the torsion bar do not twist. Only the distance between the hexes twists. That distance between the hexes is the active length, and it's 39 inches.
Because torsion bars ARE the pivot point, the distance between the pivot point and the spring is 0.
For this reason, we don't have to worry about motion ratio on a torsion bar.
However, the length of the lower control arm IS relevant to the pounds of force that the torsion bar applies at the wheel. This amount of force at the wheel is called the wheel rate.
Imagine for a minute that the lower control arm is a lever that you are using to twist the torsion bar.
A longer lever makes it easier to twist the bar.
This means that a longer lower control arm will have a lesser wheel rate than a shorter lower control arm.
Ok, time to measure the length of a lower control arm.
1962 to 1972 B bodies & 1970 to 1974 E bodies all use the same length of lower control arm.
On these cars, the main difference on the lower control arms is the position of the sway bar mounting tab IF the car was equipped with a sway bar at all.
1962 to 1965 sway bars only came on police cars. It was a different design, and poor quality. It was better than nothing back then, but isn't really worth installing today.
Sway bars were available on some regular cars from 1966 to 1974.
1966 to 1969 sway bar tabs are positioned more outboard (towards the ball joint) than 1970 and later sway bar tabs.
If you plan to use the wider 1966 to 1969 sway bar with disc brakes, make sure that it doesn't hit the brake caliper when turning the steering all the way lock to lock.
It should work fine with 1966 to 1969 disc brakes, but if you're installing 1970 or newer brakes on an older car, you may have interference issues.
The 1970 and later lower control arms that use the narrow sway bar can be installed on older B bodies with careful drilling and clearancing to route the later sway bar through the K member instead of in front of it. The 1970 and later sway bar is a much better design than the older style. Sway bars are discussed more in depth later, in the Sway Bars section.
These pictures are of a 1970 to 1972 B body & 1970 to 1974 E body lower control arm with a sway bar tab.
The first picture shows pretty well how the measurements were taken from the centerline of the pivot to the center of the ball joint hole. 12 9/32 inches.
I also measured from the centerline of the pivot to the center of the sway bar hole. 6 7/16 inches.
This second measurement will be handy later when we talk about sway bars.
On the 1966 to 1969 sway bar control arms, the distance from pivot to sway bar hole is 10 1/16.
The second picture looks a bit odd due to the perspective of the photo, but seeing it from this angle may help some people to envision the movement of the lower control arm.
Here is a website with an explanation and formulas for calculating the wheel rate for any torsion bar.
It also has a calculator to do the math for you.
You'll need to know the length of your lower control arm (listed above),
the active length of your torsion bar (listed above),
and the diameter of your torsion bar.
In most cases, the active length of your bar and the length of your lower control arm will never change.
This calculator is primarily used for comparing the wheel rates of different diameter torsion bars.
It can also be used to compare the wheel rates advertised by different bar manufacturers.
https://swayaway.com/tech-room/torsion-bar-wheel-rate-calculator/
I went ahead and did the math...
Stock B & E body torsion bars
.86 diameter 102.4 pounds per inch wheel rate
.88 diameter 112.3 pounds per inch wheel rate
.90 diameter 122.8 pounds per inch wheel rate
.925 diameter 137.0 pounds per inch wheel rate
Firm Feel B & E body torsion bars
.845 diameter 95.4 pounds per inch wheel rate
.88 diameter 112.3 pounds per inch wheel rate
.94 diameter 146.1 pounds per inch wheel rate
1.00 diameter 187.2 pounds per inch wheel rate
1.06 diameter 236.3 pounds per inch wheel rate
1.12 diameter 294.5 pounds per inch wheel rate
1.18 diameter 362.9 pounds per inch wheel rate
Many people highly recommend Firm Feel torsion bars.
Firm Feel has done the work to make sure that the hex ends are correctly indexed (clocked) on larger than stock bars, so that you don't have ride height issues after installing them.
I notice that these rates don't quite match the Firm Feel advertised rates.
http://www.firmfeel.com/b_body_mopar_torsion_bars.html
My guess is that Firm Feels lower control arm measurement is about half an inch longer. Perhaps they measured all the way to the end of the lower control arm, instead of stopping in the middle of the ball joint mounting hole?
This illustrates why it would be a good idea to calculate the rates if you're comparing torsion bars from different vendors. How they measure things can affect their advertised wheel rate.
So which torsion bars are best for your application?
That's where the vehicle weight is needed. The spring's job is to support the weight of the car, so it makes sense that the cars weight should be considered when selecting springs. Heavier cars need higher spring rates. Every car is different. For handling performance, the rule of thumb is that the wheel rate for each torsion bar should be about 10% of the weight supported by the front tires.
The largest diameter factory torsion bars came on cars that had torque boxes and leaf spring reinforcements to stiffen the chassis. You should also install those components if you're using that size of torsion bar.
If your using larger than factory torsion bars, you should seriously consider additional chassis stiffening, such as subframe connectors, front shock tower bracing, and lower radiator support reinforcement.
Your chassis needs to be stiffer than your springs, or it will flex instead of the springs, which reduces the effectiveness of your suspension and eventually risks breaking body welds.
Usually you choose your torsion bars first, and then select the best leaf springs and sway bars to pair with them for your vehicles weight distribution. It can be done the other way around if you're on a budget and trying to select the best part to pair with some of your existing suspension parts. However, limiting yourself to parts you already have on hand, may result in suboptimal performance.
Leaf Springs
Leaf Springs are another type of spring, and they're also measured by spring rate.
To measure the spring rate of a leaf spring, place it upside down on a hard smooth relatively level surface, and measure the height from the surface to the highest part of the arch. This is the uncompressed height.
Now put a heavy object on top, so that the leaf spring compresses at least one inch. (This is where it's important to have a hard smooth surface, because the spring eyes need to be able to easily slide outward when the weight is put onto the spring. Smooth concrete is ok, a greased metal plate is better.) Then remeasure the height from the surface to that same highest part of the arch. This is the compressed height.
Now weigh your heavy object, so that you know how much weight was applied.
For Example, you could use yourself as the weight, by standing on the leaf spring, and have an assistant take the measurement. Then check your current weight on a bathroom scale.
With these numbers and some simple math, we can calculate the spring rate of the leaf spring.
First things first though, if your measurement is in fractions of an inch, you'll need to convert it to a decimal number. This is easily done. You take the top number (numerator), and divide it by the bottom number (denominator). For example: 1/16th is 1 ÷ 16, which is .0625
Once your measurements are decimals instead of fractions, we can calculate the spring rate.
Uncompressed Height – Compressed Height = Travel
Applied Weight ÷ Travel = Spring Rate
If your measurements were in pounds and inches, then your spring rate will be the number of pounds required to compress the spring one inch. I'm going to continue using pounds and inches in my examples, but the formulas still work if you're more comfortable with kilograms and centimeters.
For example, 8.8125 Uncompressed Height – 7.25 Compressed Height = 1.5625 Travel
224.6 pounds Applied Weight ÷ 1.5625 Travel = 143.744 Spring Rate
The wheel is located outboard of the spring, so Leaf Springs also have a Motion Ratio.
Center to center distance between the two leaf spring perches on the axle (Perch Width) ÷ center to center distance between the rear tires (Track Width) = Leaf Spring Motion Ratio.
If your car hasn't had its rear axle swapped for something else, here's the info you need.
This info is for 8.75 rear ends, and also Dana rear ends. Both styles of rear end have the same width measurements, because that's what was required to fit into these vehicles.
Any size or width of factory drum brakes on these cars, can be installed onto any of these 8.75 or Dana rear ends, without affecting the Brake Drum to Drum Width. Any difference in brake width is handled in the offset of the brake backing plate for those brakes.
Car Leaf Spring Perch Width Brake Drum to Drum Width
1962 - 1963 B Body & 64 Max Wedge 44 58.5
1964 B Body except Max Wedge 44 60.875
1965 - 1967 B Body 44 59.5
1968 - 1970 B Body 44 60.125
1971 - 1974 B Body 47.3 63
1971 - 1973 B Body Station Wagon 47.3 64.375
1970 - 1974 E Body 46 61.625
The wheels mount against the brake drums, so the Brake Drum to Drum Width is the amount of space between the rear wheels.
To get the Track Width, we'll need some wheel measurements.
The wheel width that people usually talk about, is the width where the tire goes inside the rim.
What we need is the overall wheel width, which is measured from the outside edge of the rim.
We'll also need the Back Spacing measurement.
When you measure Back Spacing, make sure your straight edge is resting on the edge of the wheel, and not up on the tire.
Overall Wheel Width ÷ 2 = Wheel Centerline.
Wheel Centerline – Back Spacing = Wheel Offset.
(Wheel Offset x 2) + Brake Drum to Drum Width = Track Width.
If you're running factory wheels, here's the info you need.
(The 15 x 7 Rallye wheel & 15 x 7 Plain steel wheel were both introduced on 1970 model cars.
The 15 x 7 Rallye was used in 1970 & 1971. The 15 x 6.5 Rally was introduced around 1972. The Magnum 500 was only available from Mopar in 14 inch diameter. 15 inch Magnum 500 wheels are either Ford wheels, or aftermarket creations.)
Wheel Wheel Width Overall Wheel Width Back Spacing Offset
15 x 7 Rallye 7 8 4.25 -.25
15 x 6.5 Rallye 6.5 7.5 (I'm still looking for this info)
14 x 5.5 Rallye 5.5 6.5 3.75 -.50
14 x 5.5 Magnum 500 5.5 6.5 4.00 -.75
14 x 6 Plain steel wheel 6 7 (I'm still looking for this info)
15 x 7 Plain steel wheel 7 8 4.25 -.25
For example, if you're running 15 x 7 Rallye wheels on a 1970 B Body, then
8 Overall Wheel Width ÷ 2 = 4 Wheel Centerline.
4 Wheel Centerline – 4.25 Back Spacing = -.25 Wheel Offset
(-.25 Wheel Offset x 2 = -.5 total offset for both wheels) + 60.125 Brake Drum to Brake Drum Width = 59.625 Track Width.
To continue with this example, 44 Perch Width ÷ 59.625 Track Width = .738 Leaf Spring Motion Ratio
For every inch that the rear wheel moves up or down, the leaf spring will move .738 of an inch.
As described earlier, the formula for wheel rate is
(Motion Ratio x Motion Ratio) x Spring Rate = Wheel Rate
Continuing with the example, (.738 Motion Ratio x .738 Motion Ratio = .544644) x 143.744 Spring Rate = 78.29 Wheel Rate.
As you can see, wheel offset affects your motion ratio, and thus affects your wheel rate.
Using these formulas, an offset that's a negative number, gives you a higher wheel rate than an offset that's a positive number.
If you needed to fine tune your wheel rate for handling, you could potentially change to wheels with a different offset, or add wheel spacers. In some cases, this could be a better option than replacing or modifying the leaf springs for a different spring rate.
Torsion bars and leaf springs are required, just to hold the weight of the car. They do their job constantly, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, driving in a straight line, hitting a bump, cornering, or even just sitting in the garage.
However, when you turn a corner at speed, the weight of the car will shift to the side of the car that's on the outside of the turn, lifting the side of the car that's on the inside of the turn. This is called body roll. To improve handling, we need to reduce body roll while cornering. This is done with a special kind of spring that runs side to side on the car, and functions by twisting similar to how a torsion bar works. It's called a sway bar (also known as an anti-sway bar or stabilizer bar).
Sway Bars
A sway bar only functions when one wheel is trying to lift and the other wheel is not, such as during cornering, or if you hit a bump with only one wheel.
For a single wheel to lift, it would need to overcome the stiffness of the sway bar.
Like other springs, sway bars have a spring rate, which is how many pounds of force it takes to move one end of the bar up or down by 1 inch.
There are two basic shapes of factory front sway bars, the 1966 to 1969 B Body sway bar, and the improved design which fits 1970 to 1972 B Body & 1970 to 1974 E Body.
These two designs use differently positioned sway bar mounting tabs on the lower control arms, so make sure to use lower control arms that match your sway bar style. If your lower control arms don't have sway bar mounting tabs, you should be able to purchase some that can be welded on.
The 1970 and later narrow sway bar can be installed on older B bodies with careful drilling and clearancing to route the later sway bar through the K member instead of in front of it.
If you plan to use the wider 1966 to 1969 sway bar with disc brakes, make sure that it doesn't hit the brake caliper when turning the steering all the way lock to lock.
It should work fine with 1966 to 1969 disc brakes, but if you're installing 1970 or newer brakes on an older car, you may have interference issues.
Quote from: cataclysm80 on May 13, 2023, 05:00:39 PM
Earlier this year at Mecum Kissimmee, a 1969 Road Runner Hardtop with 383 Air Grabber sold for $142,000.
It's has Bronze paint with tan interior, an automatic transmission, and doesn't have rallye gauges.
https://www.mecum.com/lots/533488/1969-plymouth-road-runner/
It seems like high impact paint with white interior, pistol grip four speed manual transmission, and rallye gauges would be worth more.
Not to mention all the other extra options and upgrades.
You really have to build them well to get that kind of money though, and that's not cheap.
I saw that one and it was discussed, it was an extremely nice restoration in a nice color combo but myself and others were surprised at the selling price. I agree yours is also a very nice restoration with some great options, four speed and in one of the best color combos.
Why is all this mechanical info posted in this thread and NOT added to your reference section ?
@Cuda Cody (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/cuda-cody_1) is it worth moving ?
Quote from: anlauto on May 14, 2023, 05:52:06 AM
Why is all this mechanical info posted in this thread and NOT added to your reference section ? @Cuda Cody (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/cuda-cody_1) is it worth moving ?
It's here because I'm trying to make sure the new owner of the car gets the info. For that reason, it would be nice if it could stay here.
I'm happy to ALSO post it elsewhere. It can be in both places.
Had some internet trouble last night and couldn't post everything. I'll try to post the rest of it now.
UPDATE: This article can now be found in the Wheels, Tires, Brakes, Suspension & Steering section of the forum.
Here's a link.
https://forum.e-bodies.org/wheels-tires-brakes-suspension-and-steering/12/understanding-suspension-and-how-to-make-your-car-handle-corners-better/28289/
An original 1966 to 1969 B Body front sway bar is 15/16 diameter = .9375
Firm Feel offers it in 1-1/8 = 1.125
Firm Feel offers it in 1-1/4 = 1.25
Most original 1970 to 1972 B Body & 1970 to 1974 E Body front sway bars are 7/8 diameter = .875
The 1970 Challenger T/A & AAR 'Cuda came with a front sway bar that was 15/16 diameter = .9375
Firm Feel offers it in 1-1/8 = 1.125
Firm Feel offers it in 1-1/4 = 1.25
These are all solid bars. Some aftermarket companies may offer hollow bars for weight savings.
Having a hollow bar reduces the stiffness of the bar, but it's usually better than having a small bar.
The formula for calculating the spring rate of a solid sway bar is...
((diameter x diameter x diameter x diameter) x 500,000) ÷ ((A x A x A x .2264) + (C x C x B x .4244)) = Sway Bar Spring Rate
I won't spend much time on hollow bars in this article, but if you need it, the formula for calculating the spring rate of a hollow sway bar is...
(((outside diameter x outside diameter x outside diameter x outside diameter) – (inside diameter x inside diameter x inside diameter x inside diameter)) x 500,000) ÷ ((A x A x A x .2264) + (C x C x B x .4244)) = Sway Bar Spring Rate
A quick note on mathematical order of operations: solve inside parentheses first, then do multiplication & division from left to right, then do addition & subtraction from left to right.
For example, an original 7/8 diameter 1970 solid sway bar is...
((.875 diameter x .875 diameter x .875 diameter x .875 diameter = .5861816) x 500,000 = 293,090.8) ÷ ((10.125 dimension A x 10.125 dimension A x 10.125 dimension A x .2264 = 234.99654) + (8 dimension C x 8 dimension C x 27 dimension B x .4244 = 733.3632) = 968.35974) = 302.66727 Sway Bar Rate
Front Sway Bar Motion Ratio
The wheel is located outboard of the sway bar end link mount, so a sway bar also has a motion ratio.
Distance from lower control arm pivot to sway bar mount ÷ distance from lower control arm pivot to ball joint = Front Sway Bar Motion Ratio
All original 1962 to 1972 B Body & 1970 to 1974 E Body lower control arms measure 12.28125 from the center of the pivot to the center of the ball joint.
A 1966 to 1969 B Body sway bar mount is located 10.0625 from the lower control arm pivot.
10.0625 lower control arm pivot to sway bar mount ÷ 12.28125 lower control arm pivot to ball joint = .8193384 Front Sway Bar Motion Ratio
A 1970 to 1972 B Body & 1970 to 1974 E Body sway bar mount is located 6.4375 from the lower control arm pivot.
6.4375 lower control arm pivot to sway bar mount ÷ 12.28125 lower control arm pivot to ball joint = .524173 Front Sway Bar Motion Ratio
Front Sway Bar Wheel Rate
As described earlier, the formula for wheel rate is
(Motion Ratio x Motion Ratio) x Spring Rate = Wheel Rate
Continuing with the example of an original 7/8 diameter 1970 solid sway bar...
.524173 motion ratio x .524173 motion ratio x 302.66727 Sway Bar Spring Rate = 83.16 Front Sway Bar Wheel Rate
I went ahead and did the math...
1966 to 1969 B Body design Front Sway Bar Spring Rate Front Sway Bar Wheel Rate
15/16 diameter = spring rate 74.448564 49.98
1-1/8 diameter = spring rate 154.37655 103.64
1/1/4 diameter = spring rate 235.29425 157.96
1970 to 1972 B Body & 1970 to 1974 E Body design
7/8 diameter = spring rate 302.66727 83.16
15/16 diameter = spring rate 398.85802 109.59
1-1/8 diameter = spring rate 827.07207 227.24
1-1/4 diameter = spring rate 1,260.5884 346.36
You can see how much better the improved sway bar design is, by comparing equal diameters of the older design to the newer design.
Rear Sway Bar
A rear sway bar was not originally available on 1962 to 1970 B Bodies. However, Firm Feel offers a 3/4 inch diameter rear sway bar for these vehicles.
The first rear sway bar offered by the factory was on the 1970 Challenger T/A & AAR 'Cuda. It's 3/4 inch diameter, and was later used on other E Bodies. Firm Feel offers a reproduction of this bar.
A rear sway bar was available on 1971 to 1972 B Bodies, but it was an unusual design. The end links were not vertical, and were located on the center portion of the bar instead of at the end of the arms.
Dimension A is the length of the arm. Dimension C is the depth of the bar perpendicular to B.
On these rear bars, the arms are perpendicular to B, which makes dimensions A & C be the same.
The spring rate formula for a rear sway bar is the same formula that was used for front sway bars.
((diameter x diameter x diameter x diameter) x 500,000) ÷ ((A x A x A x .2264) + (C x C x B x .4244)) = Sway Bar Spring Rate
For example, a Firm Feel 3/4 diameter solid rear sway bar for a 1962 to 1970 B Body would be...
((.75 diameter x .75 diameter x .75 diameter x .75 diameter = .3164062) x 500,000 = 158,203.1) ÷ ((11 dimension A x 11 dimension A x 11 dimension A x .2264 = 301.3384) + (11 dimension C x 11 dimension C x 44 dimension B x .4244 = 2,259.5056) = 2,560.844) = 61.777718 Sway Bar Spring Rate
Rear Sway Bar Motion Ratio
The wheel is located outboard of the sway bar end link mount, so a sway bar also has a motion ratio.
Center to center distance between the two end link mounting points on the rear sway bar ÷ center to center distance between the rear tires (Track Width) = Rear Sway Bar Motion Ratio.
Because the bar arms are perpendicular to measurement B, the distance between the end link mounts should equal measurement B.
For information on calculating Track Width, refer to the Leaf Spring Motion Ratio section earlier in this article. Here is the Track Width example from that section.
For example, if you're running 15 x 7 Rallye wheels on a 1970 B Body, then
8 Overall Wheel Width ÷ 2 = 4 Wheel Centerline.
4 Wheel Centerline – 4.25 Back Spacing = -.25 Wheel Offset
(-.25 Wheel Offset x 2 = -.5 total offset for both wheels) + 60.125 Brake Drum to Brake Drum Width = 59.625 Track Width.
To continue with this example,...
44 distance between end link mounts ÷ 59.625 Track Width = .7379454 Rear Sway Bar Motion Ratio.
Rear Sway Bar Wheel Rate
As described earlier, the formula for wheel rate is
(Motion Ratio x Motion Ratio) x Spring Rate = Wheel Rate
Continuing with the example of a Firm Feel 3/4 diameter solid rear sway bar on a 1968 to 1970 B Body with 15 x 7 Rallye wheels...
.7379454 motion ratio x .7379454 motion ratio x 61.777718 Sway Bar Spring Rate = 33.64 Rear Sway Bar Wheel Rate
Rear Sway Bar Spring Rate Rear Sway Bar Wheel Rate
1962 to 1970 B Body Firm Feel 3/4 diameter 61.777718 ?
1970 to 1974 E Body 3/4 diameter 83.328246 ?
This chart is complex because in order to calculate wheel rate, it needs to list all the different axle widths with their different wheel offset combinations. I can't complete this chart until I have the wheel offset info. (Maybe I'll also insert a track width chart for the different wheel combinations in the leaf spring section?)
This chart is an unfinished work in progress. All the formulas are here to do the math for whatever parts your using, but for this section, the answers for every possible combination haven't been conveniently precalculated.
OK, that covers all the suspension springs and how to calculate their Wheel Rates.
Where possible, I've tried to do the math so that you can easily grab the numbers you need.
Roll Couple
Now that we can calculate the Wheel Rates for all the springs, we can move on to Roll Couple.
Roll Couple is pretty simple, you just add up the Wheel Rate for each spring.
Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + Other Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + Front Sway Bar Wheel Rate = Front Roll Couple
Leaf Spring Wheel Rate + Other Leaf Spring Wheel Rate + Rear Sway Bar Wheel Rate = Rear Roll Couple
Front Roll Couple + Rear Roll Couple = Total Roll Couple
Using the 1970 B Body examples we've discussed earlier in this article, with 1.00 Firm Feel torsion bars, original 7/8 front sway bar, 15 x 7 Rallye wheels, 78.29 wheel rate leaf springs, & Firm Feel 3/4 rear sway bar, our Roll Couple would be...
187.2 Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 187.2 Other Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 83.16 Front Sway Bar Wheel Rate = 457.56 Front Roll Couple
78.29 Leaf Spring Wheel Rate + 78.29 Other Leaf Spring Wheel Rate + 33.64 Rear Sway Bar Wheel Rate = 190.22 Rear Roll Couple
457.56 Front Roll Couple + 190.22 Rear Roll Couple = 647.78 Total Roll Couple
What we really want to know here, is what percent of the Total Roll Couple is in the front of the car.
Front Roll Couple ÷ Total Roll Couple x 100 = Percentage of Front Roll Couple
Continuing our example,...
457.56 Front Roll Couple ÷ 647.78 Total Roll Couple x 100 = 70.6% Front Roll Couple
We use this Percentage of Front Roll Couple, along with the Front Weight Bias which was discussed earlier in this article. Here's a quick review of Front Weight Bias.
You can check your cars weight on a weigh scale at the local truck stop, dump, or recycling center. Get a weight with only the front wheels on the scale, and get another weight with the whole car on the scale.
(Front weight ÷ total weight) x 100 = front weight % This is called Front Weight Bias.
Mark your Front Weight Bias and Percentage of Front Roll Couple on this chart, and see where they intersect.
Ideally, you want to be on the Theoretical Handling Line, or just a little on the Understeer side of the line.
Understeer results in loss of grip on the front tires. You turn the steering wheel, and the car wants to keep going straight. The further you are from the handling line, the more severe it is. When the driver feels understeer, their natural reaction is to slow down to regain grip as they go around the corner.
Oversteer results in loss of grip on the rear tires. As the rear end slides sideways, the driver finds themselves facing a different direction than expected, and the only recourse is corrective steering. Again, the further you are from the handling line, the more severe it is.
Understeer is safer than Oversteer.
Let's look at an example again, using all of the 70 B Body info from the previous examples.
The car is a 1970 Hemi GTX. With the driver, it weighed...
Front 2177 54% Front Weight Bias
Rear 1845 46%
Total 4022 100%
with 1.00 Firm Feel torsion bars, original 7/8 front sway bar, 15 x 7 Rallye wheels, 78.29 wheel rate leaf springs, & Firm Feel 3/4 rear sway bar
187.2 Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 187.2 Other Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 83.16 Front Sway Bar Wheel Rate = 457.56 Front Roll Couple
78.29 Leaf Spring Wheel Rate + 78.29 Other Leaf Spring Wheel Rate + 33.64 Rear Sway Bar Wheel Rate = 190.22 Rear Roll Couple
457.56 Front Roll Couple ÷ 647.78 Total Roll Couple x 100 = 70.6% Front Roll Couple
Here's what it looks like on the chart. Not great, but now that we can see what's going on, we can figure out how to fix it.
Interpreting the Results
There's more than one way to arrive at where you want to be.
By trying different combinations here on paper, you can get a pretty good idea of what's going to work, without having to spend the considerable amount of money, effort, and time, buying, installing, and testing with real parts.
I'll run through some more examples here, to give you an idea of how swapping parts (on paper) would affect your results.
Option 1: Adjust the weight of the car.
The suspension in our example 70 Hemi GTX would be perfect for a car that had 58.5% Front Weight Bias. How about we add weight to the front of the car (or remove it from the back of the car), until we hit that 58.5% number?
NO, THAT'S NOT A GOOD IDEA!
That's like making the rest of the car worse, to match your poor suspension combination. It might handle ok for what it is, but it's not something good.
It's not good to have a car be that front end heavy. You want your Front Weight Bias to be between 50% to 55%, and the closer it is to 50%, the better.
Get your cars weight as balanced as possible from front to rear, and then select suspension components based on that weight.
It would also be bad to reduce the front end weight (or increase the rear end weight) to lower your Front Weight Bias. That would make the example suspension even less adequate, increasing the chance of losing control of the car.
Option 2: Change the rear sway bar
How does it affect things if we remove the rear sway bar?
78.29 Leaf Spring Wheel Rate + 78.29 Other Leaf Spring Wheel Rate + 0 Rear Sway Bar Wheel Rate = 156.58 Rear Roll Couple
457.56 Front Roll Couple ÷ 614.14 Total Roll Couple x 100 = 74.5% Front Roll Couple
Removing the rear sway bar helps considerably. Installing a larger diameter sway bar would be worse than the bar we already have. Depending on which direction you're trying to move on this chart, sometimes a rear sway bar is helpful, and sometimes it's not. In this case, the car is better without the rear sway bar, but it's not enough change to put us where we want to be on the handling line.
Removing the rear sway bar, reduced the Rear Roll Couple. You could get a similar effect by reducing the rear roll couple through softer leaf springs. A rear sway bar is a good idea, but you need to have soft enough leaf springs that the rear bar doesn't cause excessive rear roll couple.
Option 3: Change the torsion bars (rear sway bar still installed)
1.00 diameter torsion bars
187.2 Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 187.2 Other Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 83.16 Front Sway Bar Wheel Rate = 457.56 Front Roll Couple
457.56 Front Roll Couple ÷ 647.78 Total Roll Couple x 100 = 70.6% Front Roll Couple
1.06 diameter torsion bars
236.3 Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 236.3 Other Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 83.16 Front Sway Bar Wheel Rate = 555.76 Front Roll Couple
555.76 Front Roll Couple ÷ 745.98 Total Roll Couple x 100 = 74.5% Front Roll Couple
1.12 diameter torsion bars
294.5 Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 294.5 Other Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 83.16 Front Sway Bar Wheel Rate = 672.16 Front Roll Couple
672.16 Front Roll Couple ÷ 862.38 Total Roll Couple x 100 = 77.9% Front Roll Couple
1.18 diameter torsion bars
362.9 Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 362.9 Other Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 83.16 Front Sway Bar Wheel Rate = 808.96 Front Roll Couple
808.96 Front Roll Couple ÷ 999.18 Total Roll Couple x 100 = 81% Front Roll Couple
You can see that increasing the torsion bar size gets us closer to our goal.
Decreasing the torsion bar size would be worse for handling.
Increasing one torsion bar size gave us the same improvement as removing the rear sway bar. Doing both these things together, might put us pretty close to where we want to be on the handling line.
Increasing two torsion bar sizes puts us pretty close to the handling line without removing the rear sway bar.
Increasing 3 torsion bar sizes puts us past the handling line, but still pretty close to it, so this is an acceptable option.
The downside here is that super stiff bars don't have as good of a ride quality. They'd be perfectly fine on a smooth race track, but if you're driving around town hitting bumps and dodging potholes, then they might not be the best choice for you. Larger diameter torsion bars also require higher quality shocks to help in the ride quality department.
Increasing the Front Roll Couple is clearly what we need to do on this car, but we're probably better off making some of that increase with a larger diameter front sway bar, so that we don't have to use as large of torsion bars.
Remember the rule of thumb for the torsion bar wheel rate being roughly 10% of the front end weight.
Front end weight is 2177 on this car, so a torsion bar wheel rate around 218 would be nice. The closest one is the 1.06 bar, with a wheel rate of 236.3. Let's keep this in mind as we proceed.
There may also be some straight line acceleration benefit to having smaller torsion bars. Drag racing cars are not good at cornering, but they use the smallest diameter torsion bars to promote weight transfer to the rear end for added traction during straight line acceleration. The rear springs need to be stiff enough to handle this weight transfer though. A car focused on handling probably won't keep up with an all out drag car in a straight line, but it could still make sense to use a large front sway bar so that you can use smaller diameter torsion bars, but in this case you should probably not use a rear sway bar, so that your leaf springs will be higher spring rate. This might make sense for a street/strip car that's mostly street driven and only occasionally drag raced.
Option 4: Change the front sway bar
7/8 diameter
187.2 Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 187.2 Other Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 83.16 Front Sway Bar Wheel Rate = 457.56 Front Roll Couple
457.56 Front Roll Couple ÷ 647.78 Total Roll Couple x 100 = 70.6% Front Roll Couple
15/16 diameter
187.2 Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 187.2 Other Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 109.59 Front Sway Bar Wheel Rate = 483.99 Front Roll Couple
483.99 Front Roll Couple ÷ 674.21 Total Roll Couple x 100 = 71.8% Front Roll Couple
1-1/8 diameter
187.2 Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 187.2 Other Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 227.24 Front Sway Bar Wheel Rate = 601.64 Front Roll Couple
601.64 Front Roll Couple ÷ 791.86 Total Roll Couple x 100 = 76% Front Roll Couple
1-1/4 diameter
187.2 Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 187.2 Other Torsion Bar Wheel Rate + 346.36 Front Sway Bar Wheel Rate = 720.76 Front Roll Couple
720.76 Front Roll Couple ÷ 910.98 Total Roll Couple x 100 = 79.1% Front Roll Couple
The front sway bar is a very important part of making a car handle well. The factory 7/8 & 15/16 sway bars usually aren't big enough for my tastes.
The 1-1/8 front sway bar combined with one size larger torsion bars might make a nice combination with the existing leaf springs and rear sway bar.
I'd also consider using the 1-1/8 front sway bar and removing the rear sway bar.
This could be handy in a situation where you're still building the car, and don't have the exact weight yet. It gives you the option of installing the rear sway bar or getting a larger front sway bar if you need to adjust one way or the other, after you finally get the car done and get it weighed.
The 1-1/4 front sway bar looks like it would be a great match for the other existing suspension components in our example. That should handle nicely and ride well. If you were going to do any occasional drag racing with it, you might consider removing the rear sway bar, and installing higher spring rate leaf springs. The formulas in this article can be used to calculate what spring rate you'd need.
Option 5: Change the leaf springs
(.738 Motion Ratio x .738 Motion Ratio = .544644) x 120 Spring Rate = 65.36 Wheel Rate.
65.36 Leaf Spring Wheel Rate + 65.36 Other Leaf Spring Wheel Rate + 33.64 Rear Sway Bar Wheel Rate = 164.36 Rear Roll Couple
457.56 Front Roll Couple ÷ 621.92 Total Roll Couple x 100 = 73.6% Front Roll Couple
(.738 Motion Ratio x .738 Motion Ratio = .544644) x 143.744 Spring Rate = 78.29 Wheel Rate.
78.29 Leaf Spring Wheel Rate + 78.29 Other Leaf Spring Wheel Rate + 33.64 Rear Sway Bar Wheel Rate = 190.22 Rear Roll Couple
457.56 Front Roll Couple ÷ 647.78 Total Roll Couple x 100 = 70.6% Front Roll Couple
(.738 Motion Ratio x .738 Motion Ratio = .544644) x 160 Spring Rate = 87.14 Wheel Rate.
87.14 Leaf Spring Wheel Rate + 87.14 Other Leaf Spring Wheel Rate + 33.64 Rear Sway Bar Wheel Rate = 207.92 Rear Roll Couple
457.56 Front Roll Couple ÷ 665.48 Total Roll Couple x 100 = 68.6% Front Roll Couple
Leaf springs are available in a wide variety of styles and spring rates, and can be customized by adding or subtracting leaves. It's not to difficult to find leaf springs that are more or less original appearing, in the 120 to 160 pound range. Higher or lower spring rates look less like original springs, but they're out there if you need them. This variety is why you usually choose leaf springs last. They can be adjusted to be what you need.
The leaf springs on this chart aren't sufficient to solve our suspension issues by themselves. Maybe a super low spring rate mono leaf spring would do the trick, but at the moment, I think some of the other options that have been mentioned are better choices.
There you go, that should give you a pretty good idea of how changing any suspension spring affects the whole system, and also how to know when you're about where you need to be for your car.
A note on drag racing suspension. Drag racing suspension is quite a bit different from a good handling car. Good drag race cars don't corner well. Drag race cars are designed to go from a standstill to really fast, in a straight line, for about 10 seconds. They use the smallest diameter torsion bars for a low spring rate in the front, and high spring rate leaf springs in the rear. Caltrack traction bars are common, but those aren't designed for cornering either. They don't use sway bars because that's just unnecessary weight since they're not cornering. Drag shocks also aren't intended for handling.
A drag race suspension is pretty much the opposite of what you'd want for good handling. Don't expect a drag car to handle well on the street or on a road course, and similarly, don't expect a good handling car to be winning drag races against serious drag cars. You can still have some fun within your bracket / class.
Be honest with yourself about how you'll actually drive the car, and design it to fit those needs. An autocross race track suspension designed for constant cornering also wouldn't be great for a street cruiser where you're driving straight more often than cornering. (It would probably have excessive inside tire wear from the negative camber of the autocross alignment.)
Getting an accurate weight of the car is important if you want to have good results in the end.
I highly recommend weighing your own car. Every car is a little bit different. If you look at the charts above, one or two percent different front weight bias can be a pretty big difference.
All to frequently though, someone is trying to select their suspension parts during a restoration, with the car completely disassembled and unable to be weighed. My suggestion in this instance is to install your old torsion bars and leaf springs until the car is done and can be driven to a scale to be properly weighed. Anything else is just guessing, and your final results will reflect that.
However, if you insist on guessing your weight based on someone elses car weight, this list of engine weights may be helpful if their car doesn't have the same engine as yours.
OK, with all that suspension info explained, Here's the details for the suspension on this 1970 Road Runner.
The car was completely disassembled for restoration, so based on the known weights of other 1970 Plymouth B bodies, I guessed the 1970 383 Road Runner weight at...
Front 2094 54% Front Wheel Bias
Rear 1783 46%
Total 3877 100%
Rear Suspension
Leaf Springs custom built by Firm Feel Inc to my specifications
Spring Rate 160
Motion Ratio
15 x 7 Rallye wheels on a 1970 B Body, is...
8 Overall Wheel Width ÷ 2 = 4 Wheel Centerline.
4 Wheel Centerline – 4.25 Back Spacing = -.25 Wheel Offset
(-.25 Wheel Offset x 2 = -.5 total offset for both wheels) + 60.125 Brake Drum to Brake Drum Width = 59.625 Track Width.
44 Leaf Spring Perch Width ÷ 59.625 Track Width = .738 Leaf Spring Motion Ratio
For every inch that the rear wheel moves up or down, the leaf spring will move .738 of an inch.
Rear Wheel Rate
The formula for wheel rate is (Motion Ratio x Motion Ratio) x Spring Rate = Wheel Rate (per wheel)
(.738 Motion Ratio x .738 Motion Ratio = .544644) x 160 Spring Rate = 87.14 Rear Wheel Rate
No Rear Sway Bar
Rear Roll Couple
(87.14 Rear Wheel Rate x 2 = 174.28) + 0 Rear Sway Bar = 174.28 Rear Roll Couple
Front Suspension
Firm Feel 1-1/8 diameter Front Sway Bar = 1.125 diameter
((1.125 diameter x 1.125 diameter x 1.125 diameter x 1.125 diameter = 1.6018066) x 500,000 = 800,903.3) ÷ ((10.125 dimension A x 10.125 dimension A x 10.125 dimension A x .2264 = 234.99654) + (8 dimension C x 8 dimension C x 27 dimension B x .4244 = 733.3632) = 968.35974) = 827.07207 Sway Bar Rate
Motion Ratio
6.4375 lower control arm pivot to sway bar mount ÷ 12.28125 lower control arm pivot to ball joint = .524173 Front Sway Bar Motion Ratio
Front Sway Bar Wheel Rate
.524173 motion ratio x .524173 motion ratio x 827.07207 Sway Bar Rate = 227.24 Front Sway Bar Wheel Rate
Firm Feel B & E body torsion bars
1.00 diameter 187.2 pounds per inch wheel rate
Front Roll Couple
(187.2 wheel rate x 2 = 374.4) + 227.24 front sway bar wheel rate = 601.64 Front Roll Couple
601.64 front roll couple ÷ (601.64 front + 174.28 rear = 775.92 total roll couple) = 77.5% of the total roll couple is at the front
In addition to the spring selection mentioned above, the car has...
Bilstein shocks
All of the Hemi Suspension chassis reinforcements (Resto Rick)
Lower Radiator Support reinforcement (XV Engineering)
Lower Control Arm Plates (Firm Feel)
Firm Feel Tubular Upper Control Arms for more positive caster, with a performance handling alignment
Firm Feel Stage 3 Power Steering Box
Sector Support Reinforcement
Roller Bearing Idler Arm
Power Disc Brakes with 11.75 inch diameter rotors
The car is built for someone who wants to have fun in the corners while cruising with a 4 Speed Pistol Grip and a pop up Air Grabber hood scoop.
Drive it
I meant to post an update sooner.
I took pictures at the auction.
The car sold at Mecum Indy on May 18th 2023 for $ 97,000.
https://www.mecum.com/lots/553648/
Had a great time hanging out at the auction, and checking out the RTS 'Cuda & Black Ghost.
Not exactly sure who bought it at Indy, but I recently heard it was a classic car dealership from Pennsylvania looking for inventory.
The car came back to Florida for the 2024 Mecum Kissimmee auction, and sold on January 13th for $ 87,000.
https://www.mecum.com/lots/1109604/1970-plymouth-road-runner/
It looks like they didn't put as much effort into taking nice photographs, and the car no longer had its yellow cap reproduction battery.
I've heard that cars sell for more money at the Indy auction, which is why I hauled it up there instead of waiting for the local Kissimmee auction.
Glad I did that! :)
I hear that the car lives in Florida now, where the driving weather is nice all year.