I finally ordered up my Hellcrate engine a week ago. I figured it was time given the inflation that keeps getting worse and the supply constraints that the OEM's are dealing with. That, and I simply won't have the room to maneuver a cherry picker and engine stand around along with my powetrain cart when my car shell comes back home from paint.
I set the crate down on 4x4's before the delivery guy lowered the pallet jack so I could get my hoist legs underneath it.
(https://i.imgur.com/UZIo6ZZ.jpg)
Christmas came early!
(https://i.imgur.com/C4WAZWF.jpg)
No damage luckily; everything looks intact.
(https://i.imgur.com/GX0Csmw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/t51L0lz.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/I5nQiRx.jpg)
These come with a brand new dual clutch, flywheel, and exhaust manifolds that I plan on selling off to recoup some costs. The engine arrives with a brand new oil filter and full sump of oil too. These must get run in at the factory since there is light soot in the ports and small traces of coolant in the water jackets ( I opened the block drains to make sure before I spin it over and make a mess during the oil pan swap.)
First thing's first - remove the OEM clutch/flywheel and pilot bearing since my Tremec Magnum will not work with them, then dial in my QT bellhousing so I know if I need dowels or not.... And I did naturally enough. Runout spec is < .005", and I have .007" so adjustment is needed. Bell to engine perpendicularity was <.005" though.
I ordered a set from Robb MC since those seem to be the best ones out there.
(https://i.imgur.com/RJKfKFr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OXMQAoS.jpg)
I got the engine off of the pallet and onto a stand. I used a Harbor Freight 2T hoist and 1T stand for this, and it worked perfectly using a load leveler and engine lifting brackets from Schwartz Performance. Make sure to unplug and unbolt (don't have to fully remove} the coil packs behind the lifting eyes so they don't get damaged.
(https://i.imgur.com/5mutLvH.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/xp6juLA.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jtjjJah.jpg)
Also from Schwartz Performance - I opted to install their supercharger coolant crossover setup. This gives me a lot more space between it and the firewall, and allows you to pick which side you want the coolant hoses to be routed: left, right, or both. I think it'll make it easier to get to the heater hose connections too.
(https://i.imgur.com/3TqGi9M.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/TBvv5i8.jpg)
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Very nice!
Keep that piece of wood crate with the Mopar logo for garage wall art!
What is it going in?
I installed and started routing the Mopar Performance engine harness while it is on the stand. It fits great as one would expect since it's basically a production part with the emissions crap deleted. However, my engine being a very late build there are 3 sensors that it came with that are not compatible with my harness.
It seems the 2018+ production Hellcat engines now have updated knock and EOP sensors, and since this rolls down the line just like them, it received those updated parts while Mopar forgot to update their harness. I'm ordering new sensors for a 2017 Challenger and that should resolve my issue. I'll update with the P/N's once I get them in and confirm it works.
I also have to relocate and extend my wiring for the starter since the factory is set up on the passenger side, and my setup will be on the driver side. The SC coolant temp sensor pigtail also needed to be unwrapped and rerouted to reach, but didn't need any wiring cut.
(https://i.imgur.com/ERRXBxv.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/RDabpYc.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/D58aMWk.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/NK95stZ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dTR0DUa.jpg)
Quote from: larry4406 on December 05, 2021, 09:08:20 AM
Very nice!
Keep that piece of wood crate with the Mopar logo for garage wall art!
What is it going in?
It's going in my 74 Challenger. I have a restoration thread on that already, but figured I'd make a separate one for the engine stuff.
Very interesting stuff, keep it going :brainiac:
Cool stuff , you need to get a id sump oil pan & the alt will not fit beside the frame rai without notching the lip of the rail , you also need to sort out the oil filter positioning .
Quote from: Chryco Psycho on December 05, 2021, 05:56:34 PM
Cool stuff , you need to get a id sump oil pan & the alt will not fit beside the frame rai without notching the lip of the rail , you also need to sort out the oil filter positioning .
Yup... To that end, I might be trying the Magnumforce Racing Hellcat pan. It's far cheaper than the others, and being a rear sump I think it'll work fine with my Alterktion setup as long as the front portion doesn't hang down too low. If that doesn't work, I'm probably going to use the Stef's pan. The Milodon pans seem to be hit or miss quality wise.
For the oil filter, my current plan is to try the factory Ram TRX oil filter adapter. It's a low profile 90 degree adapter that still as the -12AN oil cooler ports. Allegedly, it works with the Alterktion frame. I'll upload pics and confirm if it works or not when I get to that point.
If that doesn't work, I already had planned on using a remote oil filter adapter and filter setup concealed behind the passenger side headlight area.
(https://i.imgur.com/phscjJp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OgnptQA.jpg)
The alternator will be close, but I've seen a couple of Hellcat E-bodies that did not need any frame notching. I'm not sure, but it seems like the alternator sits a little lower on the Hellcat accessory drives than the 6.4L, but we'll see!
Great info, how did you remove the pilot bearing?
I need to do the same.
Quote from: Dmod1974 on December 05, 2021, 08:47:38 AM
First thing's first - remove the OEM clutch/flywheel and pilot bearing since my Tremec Magnum will not work with them, then dial in my QT bellhousing so I know if I need dowels or not.... And I did naturally enough. Runout spec is < .005", and I have .007" so adjustment is needed. Bell to engine perpendicularity was <.005" though.
I ordered a set from Robb MC since those seem to be the best ones out there.
(https://i.imgur.com/RJKfKFr.jpg)
Quote from: Katfish on December 05, 2021, 07:07:25 PM
Quote from: Dmod1974 on December 05, 2021, 08:47:38 AM
First thing's first - remove the OEM clutch/flywheel and pilot bearing since my Tremec Magnum will not work with them, then dial in my QT bellhousing so I know if I need dowels or not.... And I did naturally enough. Runout spec is < .005", and I have .007" so adjustment is needed. Bell to engine perpendicularity was <.005" though.
I ordered a set from Robb MC since those seem to be the best ones out there.
(https://i.imgur.com/RJKfKFr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OXMQAoS.jpg)
Great info, how did you remove the pilot bearing?
I need to do the same.
I used an actual pilot bearing puller. It came right out; it's a relatively light press fit.
Well, my day just went to crap. I yanked the pan off my engine since I need to install a center or rear sump version, and it looks like I got a bad engine right out of the gate. #3 and probably #4 have spun rod bearings, and there was quite a bit of non-metallic metal shavings in the pan. No idea how this passed QC, and I know this is going to be a major PITA fighting with them and exchanging this one. I have remove and reinstall everything I took off, recrate it, shipping, etc... :steamingmad: :steamingmad: :steamingmad:
(https://i.imgur.com/PXeMrye.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/QH3KvTU.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/BbsDrhv.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3gchjtP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ptPo0h7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9A0hQ9O.jpg)
I seriously have the worst luck. They build thousands of these and I get the one that is bad out of the box. I'm sure being built with COVID induced supply chain, adjusted plant schedules, lock downs, and everything else that has rocked the manufacturing world doesn't help.
Yikes, that is scary looking :console: good luck with the warranty battle, please keep us posted :fingerscrossed: that they stand behind you and give you a new motor
I feel bad for you, what a pita! Glad you caught it now though!
Very sorry to see that. :thumbdown:
Reminds me of the poor quality from Mopar when the were selling the Mopar crate Hemi's.
Lots of nightmare quality control stories back then and most people took their crate Hemis straight to their engine builders for inspection/rebuild.
Good luck and keep us informed.
Just the colour of that oil is scary....for comparison, here's the 392 pan I pulled off a couple of weeks ago, with a little oil left in it
Quote from: anlauto on December 12, 2021, 02:23:41 PM
Just the colour of that oil is scary....for comparison, here's the 392 pan I pulled off a couple of weeks ago, with a little oil left in it
The oil I drained looked like brand new factory fill oil. That black film in the bottom of the pan wasn't apparent until it was removed. Not sure if it's charred oil from that rod journal, break in lube, or something else but it ain't good.
Quote from: GrandpaKevin on December 12, 2021, 02:16:10 PM
Very sorry to see that. :thumbdown:
Reminds me of the poor quality from Mopar when the were selling the Mopar crate Hemi's.
Lots of nightmare quality control stories back then and most people took their crate Hemis straight to their engine builders for inspection/rebuild.
Good luck and keep us informed.
Yeah, I remember those were iffy at best. I thought that work was sublet under the Mopar name out since they hadn't built a vehicle with them in decades.
I believed I'd be fine since this is literally the same current production line engine that goes into all of the factory Hellcat vehicles. Guess not!
Quote from: Dmod1974 on December 12, 2021, 03:01:27 PM
Quote from: GrandpaKevin on December 12, 2021, 02:16:10 PM
Very sorry to see that. :thumbdown:
Reminds me of the poor quality from Mopar when the were selling the Mopar crate Hemi's.
Lots of nightmare quality control stories back then and most people took their crate Hemis straight to their engine builders for inspection/rebuild.
Good luck and keep us informed.
Yeah, I remember those were iffy at best. I thought that work was sublet under the Mopar name out since they hadn't built a vehicle with them in decades.
I believed I'd be fine since this is literally the same current production line engine that goes into all of the factory Hellcat vehicles. Guess not!
Yes I believe the old crate hemis were built by the lowest subcontracted bidder, multiple ones over the years.
Seems like the Hellcrate had some early issues too
https://www.thedrive.com/news/30704/1000-hp-hellephant-crate-engine-heads-to-production-after-fixing-reliability-problems-report
How are these Hellcrate engines purchased? Through a dealer or straight from Mopar?
Who would be you contact for issues like this?
Is a written warranty included?
I wish you all the best.
I have a 73 Challenger I would love to install a late model Hemi drive train in someday and try to follow as many posts on this as possible.
Quote from: GrandpaKevin on December 12, 2021, 04:27:56 PM
Quote from: Dmod1974 on December 12, 2021, 03:01:27 PM
The hellephant was a completely different animal, no pun intented. They only made a couple dozen of them and they were not production engines at all. The Hellcrate is literally a line engine.
I got mine from a vendor, but you can go through a dealer too.
No idea yet on the warranty issue resolution process yet, but I'll be finding out shortly.
Mopar Performance has a pdf that you can download with warranty terms.
Quote from: GrandpaKevin on December 12, 2021, 02:16:10 PM
Very sorry to see that. :thumbdown:
Reminds me of the poor quality from Mopar when the were selling the Mopar crate Hemi's.
Lots of nightmare quality control stories back then and most people took their crate Hemis straight to their engine builders for inspection/rebuild.
Good luck and keep us informed.
Yeah, I remember those were iffy at best. I thought that work was sublet under the Mopar name out since they hadn't built a vehicle with them in decades.
I believed I'd be fine since this is literally the same current production line engine that goes into all of the factory Hellcat vehicles. Guess not!
Yes I believe the old crate hemis were built by the lowest subcontracted bidder, multiple ones over the years.
Seems like the Hellcrate had some early issues too
https://www.thedrive.com/news/30704/1000-hp-hellephant-crate-engine-heads-to-production-after-fixing-reliability-problems-report
How are these Hellcrate engines purchased? Through a dealer or straight from Mopar?
Who would be you contact for issues like this?
Is a written warranty included?
I wish you all the best.
I have a 73 Challenger I would love to install a late model Hemi drive train in someday and try to follow as many posts on this as possible.
So sorry about the engine problem. I wonder if all the crate engines are run before they are shipped? I just picked up a 392 for my swap and hope I have no problems.
Quote from: 71340RT on December 12, 2021, 07:38:16 PM
So sorry about the engine problem. I wonder if all the crate engines are run before they are shipped? I just picked up a 392 for my swap and hope I have no problems.
Look in the exhaust. It'll be obvious if it's been run in or not...
Mine was, and I still ended up with one that probably had a few minutes left on it before tossing a rod or locking up. :dunno:
Honestly, I find it hard to believe this wasn't knocking on the dyno. That rod got HOT.
That actually looks pretty bad. Mopar better take it back and ship you a new one without further charges.
It's been a minute, but I received the new engine and everything looked mint when I dropped the pan (first thing I did this time!). :woohoo:
The dealer and Mopar shipped a new engine within a day of notifying them and didn't question it at all. I received it a week or two ago and just got back from New Orleans to finally update my progress and upload my videos.
(https://i.imgur.com/jCspP2k.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Z8Jiu2a.jpg)
I have part numbers for the CORRECT parts to install an A/C compressor on any of the Mopar Performance Gen 3 hemi engines in the comments of the video. The Mopar Performance one will NOT work with any aftermarket systems and clearly was thrown together using the factory late model stuff.
Other little tidbits - I confirmed that the factory EOP and KS sensors for a 2015-2107 Challenger fit the engine and my harness just fine (part numbers in the video link.)
(https://i.imgur.com/uHmu6S8.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Jk2tsEe.jpg)
I also found one other gotcha with my late model build engine - the makeup air hose fitting on the driver's side valve cover has been relocated to the rear. Luckily, the fix is super easy.
(https://i.imgur.com/hzlecQ3.jpg)
Below are my tentative plans for the dipstick with part numbers as well. Also noteworthy, the main and head bolts are NOT torque to yield and one time use fasteners despite a lot of the information I see posted in various forums. My next update will be the Stef's oil pan swap and starter fitting.
I like the dip stick tube, can you please follow up with the correct matching dip stick part number ... :)
:banana: Great news.
Quote from: anlauto on December 30, 2021, 06:21:13 PM
I like the dip stick tube, can you please follow up with the correct matching dip stick part number ... :)
I put all of the part numbers needed in the video comments.
Not sure what that means, but I'll go over to YouTube and see if I can find them, thank you :bigthumb:
Okay...found the numbers....do you think that set-up will give an accurate reading with an aftermarket oil pan, or will it have to be calibrated you think ?
Glad the new motor arrived quickly! Great news! Enjoying this thread! :clapping:
Quote from: anlauto on December 30, 2021, 06:34:36 PM
Okay...found the numbers....do you think that set-up will give an accurate reading with an aftermarket oil pan, or will it have to be calibrated you think ?
I don't see why it wouldn't if using a stock throw crank and windage tray gasket, but I plan on verifying on my pan nonetheless. The max oil level on any engine is set by keeping the oil level from coming too close to the crankshaft. That distance doesn't change regardless of pan shape and depth, only the amount of oil to reach it does.
Thank makes sense I guess if that tube was designed to go in the block in that location.... :brainiac:
On my last 392 build I used the tube/stick in that location that came with the crate engine (designed to go in the pan) like you mentioned....it had to be calibrated :thinking:
I really like the look and location of this set-up :twothumbsup:
I actually never thought to reuse the factory gaskets and bolts (yes they had sealer on them) when installing the headers, so I didn't order the stud, only the tube and dipstick.....I used all the bolts and gaskets that were supplied by TTI :dunno:
Quote from: anlauto on January 07, 2022, 03:52:44 PM
I actually never thought to reuse the factory gaskets and bolts (yes they had sealer on them) when installing the headers, so I didn't order the stud, only the tube and dipstick.....I used all the bolts and gaskets that were supplied by TTI :dunno:
Gotcha. Well, I should know next week (hopefully). I plan on reusing the factory gaskets since they came off perfect with no tears and the MLS layers still springy. Not sure if I will reuse the bolts or order new OEM ones yet, but the late model Charger/Challenger guys swear by that combo to prevent header leaks. They have a lot of issues with bolts coming loose and having leaks and the stock stuff actually seems to hold up the best so I plan on running that.
Yea...I'm SO new to this game, and there's SO much to learn... :looney: I don't hang around any other forums except this one, so I really appreciate your input as well as others playing with these Gen III's :drinkingbud:
My dipstick parts finally arrived and I got around to fitting the Stef's center sump oil pan. Really nice fitting piece!
(https://i.imgur.com/tjlZ8dI.jpg)
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I clearanced the block for starter fitment, and had to grind the pickup tube flange a little bit to clear the shorter Hellcat timing cover.
(https://i.imgur.com/D5IeMK7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/pQC240r.jpg)
I also installed a UPR catch can onto the engine. I figure I might as well keep the intake tract oil free right out of the gate. It has a mounting bracket with quick disconnect features and OE style PCV hose connections.
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Next up: setting this beast down onto my powertrain dolly and dialing in the bellhousing (again) to the new engine block. Fingers crossed I got my mounts welded in right when I did the mockup last spring with a junk engine block!
I worked on this thing most of yesterday and finally got the engine set back down on the subframe along with dialing in the bellhousing again, installing the twin disc clutch, setting the CSC cushion distance, and stabbing the trans. The trans was a bear to get lined up and I ended up installing it with the bellhousing bolted to the trans already. After I did that it went in just fine. Trying to line up the input shaft with two discs and the pilot bearing, finagle the CSC, spacers, and hydraulic line, compress it, and get the dowels lined up was just too much.
I'm probably going to use some 1/4" spacer plates between the motor mount brackets on the block to space the engine up a little more. When I initially welded the mounts with the junk 5.7 block and truck pan I was paranoid about setting the engine too high for hood clearance, so I obviously went a little too low when I welded them in. Raising it a hair will reduce the trimming I need to do on the oil filter adapter drip flange too. That should keep me busy until the TTI headers arrive in the next month. Then I get to see if I need the manual trans truck starter or can reuse my existing one.
This was after installing the adjustable dowels. Spec is < .005", so I'm less than half that. Should shift real smooth!
(https://i.imgur.com/4dcbDCN.jpg)
Installing the floater ring and 1st disc. The inner disc MUST be loose and have play at this point.
(https://i.imgur.com/w21k3O7.jpg)
Pressure plate and 2nd disc installed. I always wiggle the alignment tool in a circle to ensure everything is centered before tightening the bolts down too much.
(https://i.imgur.com/l0w5o9u.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bCyVpnB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FeH9G5H.jpg)
The body shop is cranking away at my car again; I think it'll be done end of next month since they are currently sanding the build up primer before it gets final prime before paint. As always with these swaps, more stumbling blocks. I ended up having to cut out and reweld my mounts. It sits higher now and I have plenty of clearance, though I hope the same can be said about my trans tunnel clearance to my Tremec Magnum, and my drivelines angles...
Anyways, I finally received my 2" TTI headers and got them installed. I used factory Mopar gaskets and Loctite patch bolts since the late model guys swear by that combo. Apparently most aftermarket bolts and gaskets are leak prone.
They look and fit great, though I did find out that my old Mopar gear reduction starter doesn't play nice with them. I ended up installing the late model Gen 3 hemi manual trans truck starter (P/N 56029274AA). It fits perfectly! I bought a brand new aftermarket one for like $75 shipped from Amazon. The starter and solenoid are tucked up nicely to the block, and there is boatloads of clearance to the headers. The motor has at least 2" clearance if not more, and the closest the starter comes to the pipes is still more than 1" at the mounting flange that isn't even heat damage susceptible to begin with. I thought I got carried away with my block grinding, but it turned out that it was just enough to clear.
(https://i.imgur.com/NGdasM7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/R7czUjD.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/v67urL7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jWZPBq1.jpg)
My wiring has just as much clearance too. Some of the angles are deceiving, but the knock sensor wiring is over 1" at it's closest from touching the motor stud, and it's loomed in a way where it will not hit it.
(https://i.imgur.com/sbH6tDy.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Do73kIk.jpg)
Another fitment issue that I found is that if you are using the factory windage tray gasket like me, you have to trim off the front most large bolt hole at the back on the passenger side or it will touch the header. This is one of the 4 large bolts that none of the aftermarket oil pans use to begin with, and the ones you'll have to trim off of the block on the driver's side. I found that out after torquing it down and had to remove the header to trim it with a Dremel tool. :bricks:
Last gotcha and I think I'm finally caught up until the body comes back - you'll need O2 sensor harness extensions for the O2 sensors to reach the Mopar Performance harness connectors with long tube headers. This is par for the course on late model stuff, but it totally slipped my mind and TTI had no notes about it either. I have BBK P/N 1114 on order for about $70. You can spend more, but they're literally just jumpers and already overpriced...
Here are some videos I made on how to build a bench programming harness for the Gen 3 Hemi ECM's, as well as what I'm doing for electric cooling fan control. I'm using HP Tuners and their MPVI2+ programming cable to change the cooling fan control temps and settings to a single 2-speed fan instead of the single fan control is configured for from Mopar Performance. Naturally, this also required reworking the crate engine control harness. It was a cheap and simple mod at least!
Also, the O2 sensor extensions worked perfectly!
My dipstick/tube just arrived today and I wondered same thing.
It's a catch-22, tube has to have severe bends to hug block, so it is pretty hard to insert the dipstick.
I also noticed it not a single piece design, they riveted 2 sections together.
Glad to hear it gets easier once there's some oil on it.
Mine is tough, but I don't plan to check the oil that often, so it doesn't bother me... :tool:
Quote from: anlauto on March 14, 2022, 03:04:08 PM
Mine is tough, but I don't plan to check the oil that often, so it doesn't bother me... :tool:
Should really be no reason to pull the dipstick.
These modern engines don't use oil or leak.
I have an 06 Mustang that I bought new and I've pulled that dipstick 3 times or less.
Remember, this is a factory Jeep dipstick setup. You may need to set your purses down before removing it :haha: :haha: :haha: Seriously though, a light oil film like you'd get from windage and oil misting in the crankcase after running the engine might make a world of difference in reducing friction.
Also, some dipsticks are a PITA to remove and insert in one orientation for whatever reason, but extremely easy when rotated 90 or 180 degrees different due to the way they are twisted and bent. Might want to try that too.
I put together a How To video on modifying the stock Gen 3 hemi power steering pump pressure and flow rate to be more compatible with the steering (and hydroboost if you're running it.) Hopefully this saves some of you some time and money for other things!
Hey!
I found your thread now. Thanks for popping into my other thread on swapping the 5.7 HEMI for the 6.2. I really appreciated your help there.
It has been an interesting read.
1) How has your swap worked for you so far?
2) Did the alternator fit in the end nicely or did some modification had to be done to the body?
3) What are the components that exactly had to be bought as an extra - so far I understand that I need harness, an adapter for the supercharger coolant lines, alternator, starter.
4) I have already acquired and modified the current 5.7 engine to fit nicely on the front axle. I used a rear sump Holley setup. Do you think this same pan would work for the 6.2?
5) I have 5.7 engine Hooker headers all done with complete exhaust. Do you think the 6.2 connects with these headers or will new ones be needed?
I really appreciate your help and hope you don't mind me checking in here for a few more things.