Hi guys ;)
I would like to modify the power steering because actually, it is really too assisted.
For you, what is the best way ?
1. An original power steering modified by FIRFEEL stage 3.
2. A aftermarket power steering by BORGESON.
I would like to change because where I live the roads turn a lot and they are really not enough wide for an original power sterring none modified.
Thank's for the answers :ohyeah:
I like my FirmFeel, but that's all I've ever have driven.
Quote from: Cuda Cody on November 11, 2018, 10:10:41 AM
I like my FirmFeel, but that's all I've ever have driven.
:iagree: same here no experience with the Borgeson . Some of the early ones were welded out of position so I've read about/seen pictures online. Splines on the big sector shaft versions were not cut deep enough so that you couldn't use the lock nut.
Me... I'd go with the sure thing. Not a fan of welded steering boxes although I haven't heard of one failing. If you have to get the car inspected having the steering box welded together might be a red flag? :alan2cents:
Quote from: Cuda Cody on November 11, 2018, 10:10:41 AM
I like my FirmFeel, but that's all I've ever have driven.
Thank you for the answer.
For us it is not easy with Firmfeel because we need to buy an old original in United States.
After to send it to Fimfeel, to fix and modified it and finally they send us the purpose modified.
The price at home with everything inclused (taxes, shipping, etc) is around 1100 US dollars (expensive...).
I do not know exactly de driving differences between BORGESON and FIRMFEEL power steering.
I also have level 3 but steer n gear did mine- been in there a few years already w no issues. When i had mine done it was a fairly quick turnaround. Unless you need the original box done , they do have boxes there they can build. That could save you some time
My local rebuilder John Stewart Power Brake says he can do the same mods as Firm Feel by adding some special shim washers inside somewhere ??? Problem was he needed a donner box to get the other washers from. He was looking into having the washers made, but I've never followed up... moral of the story, maybe do some research on this, and possibly a local rebuilder can do the same for you. :dunno: save a lot of money. Also you can get a longer pitman arm :alan2cents: which helps
Quote from: THE ZUKE on November 11, 2018, 10:20:49 AM
Quote from: Cuda Cody on November 11, 2018, 10:10:41 AM
I like my FirmFeel, but that's all I've ever have driven.
Thank you for the answer.
For us it is not easy with Firmfeel because we need to buy an old original in United States.
After to send it to Fimfeel, to fix and modified it and finally they send us the purpose modified.
The price at home with everything inclused (taxes, shipping, etc) is around 1100 US dollars (expensive...).
I do not know exactly de driving differences between BORGESON and FIRMFEEL power steering.
Firm Feel should have a box for you so you don't have to buy another. I too have a FF stage III and love it! Both are expensive, not much difference in feel on the street from what I've read, the Borgeson is smaller for better clearance. Here are some other threads comparing the two -
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2221197/1.html
https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/firm-feel-or-borgeson.141717/
The Borgeson is smaller, lighter, slightly quicker ratio. Compare to stock not Firmfeel, it is tighter, much less play from center. Definitely big improvement over stock. I do not have experience with Firm Feel. You should however get the coupler adapter from BergmanAutocraft. It makes everything reversible back to stock without the need to cut the column. You might also want to do the lower column bearing mod at the same time. BTW, reuse your stock pitman arm nut if in good shape. The steel is harder than the new one. The spline grooves at the pitman arm might need to be clean up in order to get full engagement depth with the sector shaft. Do not rely on the nut and brute force. It will mess up the threads.
Quote from: Brads70 on November 11, 2018, 10:15:21 AM
Quote from: Cuda Cody on November 11, 2018, 10:10:41 AM
I like my FirmFeel, but that's all I've ever have driven.
:iagree: same here no experience with the Borgeson . Some of the early ones were welded out of position so I've read about/seen pictures online. Splines on the big sector shaft versions were not cut deep enough so that you couldn't use the lock nut.
Me... I'd go with the sure thing. Not a fan of welded steering boxes although I haven't heard of one failing. If you have to get the car inspected having the steering box welded together might be a red flag? :alan2cents:
OK thank's for your explination. ;) One of my french friends tryed one borgeson steering on his 65 Mustang. He was really glad about the modification (nothing weld, he tryed it last year).
Quote from: BIGSHCLUNK on November 11, 2018, 10:41:40 AM
I also have level 3 but steer n gear did mine- been in there a few years already w no issues. When i had mine done it was a fairly quick turnaround. Unless you need the original box done , they do have boxes there they can build. That could save you some time
Ok thank's ;)
Yes if I will change the box, I need an other old because I coud not use mine (To expensive to send to US by shipping).
Quote from: anlauto on November 11, 2018, 10:51:34 AM
My local rebuilder John Stewart Power Brake says he can do the same mods as Firm Feel by adding some special shim washers inside somewhere ??? Problem was he needed a donner box to get the other washers from. He was looking into having the washers made, but I've never followed up... moral of the story, maybe do some research on this, and possibly a local rebuilder can do the same for you. :dunno: save a lot of money. Also you can get a longer pitman arm :alan2cents: which helps
In France, we do not have a specialist in this domain.
For us, the price is a big problem (All taxes, shipping, etc..).
I have a Borgeson box and have about 5,000 miles on it. So far, so good, though I wish I could get a faster steering ratio out of it.
The cost was almost neutral between it and the firm feel, by the time I shipped back/forth from firm feel and accounted for what I sold my original box for..The borg box is several pounds lighter as well.
Quote from: 303 Mopar on November 11, 2018, 10:54:18 AM
Quote from: THE ZUKE on November 11, 2018, 10:20:49 AM
Quote from: Cuda Cody on November 11, 2018, 10:10:41 AM
I like my FirmFeel, but that's all I've ever have driven.
Thank you for the answer.
For us it is not easy with Firmfeel because we need to buy an old original in United States.
After to send it to Fimfeel, to fix and modified it and finally they send us the purpose modified.
The price at home with everything inclused (taxes, shipping, etc) is around 1100 US dollars (expensive...).
I do not know exactly de driving differences between BORGESON and FIRMFEEL power steering.
Firm Feel should have a box for you so you don't have to buy another. I too have a FF stage III and love it! Both are expensive, not much difference in feel on the street from what I've read, the Borgeson is smaller for better clearance. Here are some other threads comparing the two -
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2221197/1.html
https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/firm-feel-or-borgeson.141717/
Thank you for the links, every was very interesting. It seems Borgeson has a lot of problems.
Quote from: 7212Mopar on November 11, 2018, 11:59:39 AM
The Borgeson is smaller, lighter, slightly quicker ratio. Compare to stock not Firmfeel, it is tighter, much less play from center. Definitely big improvement over stock. I do not have experience with Firm Feel. You should however get the coupler adapter from BergmanAutocraft. It makes everything reversible back to stock without the need to cut the column. You might also want to do the lower column bearing mod at the same time. BTW, reuse your stock pitman arm nut if in good shape. The steel is harder than the new one. The spline grooves at the pitman arm might need to be clean up in order to get full engagement depth with the sector shaft. Do not rely on the nut and brute force. It will mess up the threads.
Than's for the explination. ;)
News :D
Yesterday I bought the complete kit power steering Borgeson for cuda 70. :takemymoney:
When it will be in place, I tell you my opinion about this modification. :)
Bon chance, mon ami! :cheers:
I have ordered several boxes (Stage III) from FFI for my own and customers cars. Nice product and their customer service is great as well.
Check your automobile regulatory entity (ex: the German TUV, sorry I don't know the French equivalent) Recently saw an article where the Netherlands auto bureau did not approve the welded version of the Borgeson box.
Quote from: shawge on November 27, 2018, 10:02:22 AM
Check your automobile regulatory entity (ex: the German TUV, sorry I don't know the French equivalent) Recently saw an article where the Netherlands auto bureau did not approve the welded version of the Borgeson box.
One of my friends changed two times, firstable on a Mustang 65 and now on a Cuda 73 the power steering by a BORGESON kit.
He is really happy about this modification. As I believe him because he is a good mechanic, I decided to change mine by a BORGESON kit too.
He told "With a BORGESON kit, the direction is like a present car".
When I will receive and change it, I explain you my sensations. ;)
Hey Zuke, just out of curiosity, was your steering feeling really sloppy, like having to turn steering wheel a quarter turn before it actually starts turning???
If the steering wheel feels sloppy - and you can test this with engine idling by watching front wheels while you rotate steering wheel left and right until it moves each way... if you have over 2 inches of steering wheel rim movement (about 1/8 of a turn), it might be your sector shaft adjustment. That is the nut and allen screw on the top of the steering gear box... loosen the locking nut, and screw the allen screw clockwise a quarter turn, then snug lock nut and check.. I did mine almost a full turn this spring, and boy did it help it feel like I was on rails!
Don't go too much, as it can end up binding when it's centered... you want it to feel smooth throughout the range, yet start moving as soon as you turn the wheel)
Quote from: jimynick on November 26, 2018, 09:03:55 PM
Bon chance, mon ami! :cheers:
Thank you (Merci beaucoup, the same thing but in French) :)
Quote from: 73_Cuda_4_Me on November 27, 2018, 05:07:32 PM
Hey Zuke, just out of curiosity, was your steering feeling really sloppy, like having to turn steering wheel a quarter turn before it actually starts turning???
If the steering wheel feels sloppy - and you can test this with engine idling by watching front wheels while you rotate steering wheel left and right until it moves each way... if you have over 2 inches of steering wheel rim movement (about 1/8 of a turn), it might be your sector shaft adjustment. That is the nut and allen screw on the top of the steering gear box... loosen the locking nut, and screw the allen screw clockwise a quarter turn, then snug lock nut and check.. I did mine almost a full turn this spring, and boy did it help it feel like I was on rails!
Don't go too much, as it can end up binding when it's centered... you want it to feel smooth throughout the range, yet start moving as soon as you turn the wheel)
Thanks for the explanation. :ohyeah:
My car direction has no game but it is much too assisted. :verymad:
At home (In the country and mountains) the roads turn a lot and with a direction too assisted it is not cool to drive. :stayinlane:
The BORGESON kit will give me the feeling of having the same direction as a modern car. (In the best way :) ).
:stayinlane:
Direction = Turning or steering over here, and we all love to have quick or tight turning or steering!
Game = Play or slop over here, and we all hate that! Glad your car has none!
:cheers:
Quote from: GCragtop on November 26, 2018, 09:31:02 PM
I have ordered several boxes (Stage III) from FFI for my own and customers cars. Nice product and their customer service is great as well.
I am sure the stage III is good but for french the price is really expensive with all taxes, shipping...
For us the best way is to find an old on EBAY in the United states rather than use mine.
If I compare both prices are similar between Borgeson and Firm feel stage III.
Quote from: 73_Cuda_4_Me on November 28, 2018, 02:16:02 PM
:stayinlane:
Direction = Turning or steering over here, and we all love to have quick or tight turning or steering!
Game = Play or slop over here, and we all hate that! Glad your car has none!
:cheers:
LOL :clapping: your answer is like a good joke. :bradsthumb:
Quote from: THE ZUKE on November 11, 2018, 10:20:49 AM
For us it is not easy with Firmfeel because we need to buy an old original in United States.
After to send it to Fimfeel, to fix and modified it and finally they send us the purpose modified.
The price at home with everything inclused (taxes, shipping, etc) is around 1100 US dollars (expensive...).
You don't have to buy an old one, I bought one from Firmfeel (I live in Sweden), I paid the Core fee of $175 instead.
My total for the steering box (stage 2) was 359+175 = $534, shipping and taxes added later (but I shipped in a container so it was cheap).
I have 2 FF Stage III boxes; one in my Challenger and one in my Cuda; love them.
Quote from: soundcontrol on November 29, 2018, 02:13:45 PM
Quote from: THE ZUKE on November 11, 2018, 10:20:49 AM
For us it is not easy with Firmfeel because we need to buy an old original in United States.
After to send it to Fimfeel, to fix and modified it and finally they send us the purpose modified.
The price at home with everything inclused (taxes, shipping, etc) is around 1100 US dollars (expensive...).
You don't have to buy an old one, I bought one from Firmfeel (I live in Sweden), I paid the Core fee of $175 instead.
My total for the steering box (stage 2) was 359+175 = $534, shipping and taxes added later (but I shipped in a container so it was cheap).
Ok ;) thank you for explanations.
One of my french friends did the same thing as you but with an old US original power steering buying there. The price all inclused arriving in France was around 1000 Euros. :thinking:
News :)
The power steering kit BORGESON is at home. Yeah !!! with the yellow pinion for the cable speedometer. Yeah !!! again.
Now ??? I need some time to change all these pieces. :rubeyes:
That was fast. Good luck with the changeover.
That Borgeson coupler requires cutting of the steering shaft. The one made by Bergman Autocraft does not and is 100% reversible if that matters. It also looks more like factory and install same as factory.
Today it was works on the steering box. :wrenching:
As I wrote, I wanted to mount a BORGESON case. :tool:
Well it's not that easy when the 4-in-1 exhaust.
To remove the power steering original box from above because it is impossible, you must remove the battery, the battery holder, 3 spark plugs, an exhaust manifold, the power steering pump, purge the circuit water as water comes out of the manifold screws. :dunno:
So when I'm told it takes 3 or 4 hours to make the change, I say it's just a joke ....
In my case, it will take at least between 8 to 10 hours.
For information, on a CUDA 70, there is no need to cut the steering column to fit the BORGESON coupler because it fits right. ;)
For the moment, on pictures, just the new box is fixed ;)
:verymad: :verymad: :verymad:
One of my friends told me "To change the power steering box by a Borgeson, it's just easy, only 3 or 4 hours !!!". :tool:
Yes but not on my car because of the 4/1 collector.
It's just impossible to reassemble the Borgeson coupling without moving the axis of the steering column.
What is the new problem? Have a small extractor ....
Once again blocked in the works because I have to make one.
I am sure without the collector 4/1, the adaptation must be quickly but not with it because it hinders for everything and everywhere
Special thanks to @Cody for his link, really it's better with it. :worship: :)
5 bolts my friend. Nn need of extractor.
News of the day. ;)
Works finished about the Borgeson box. :veryexcited: :cooldance:
First test on roads and really a good surprise, :twothumbsup: the direction is really better than the original.
The sensations are close to a current car.
I have to change the kneecaps because of some rubber covers are cut and realize too a complete geometry of the front axle (New topic launched).
Quote from: scal on February 18, 2019, 11:46:02 AM
5 bolts my friend. Nn need of extractor.
A plate with a large central screw for pushing the axle. And 2 1/2 inch screws screwed into the slots provided. 4 key turns and everything came out.
Any more pictures?
Did you get the power steering pump, bracket and the whole shebang?
Any pictures of the bracket and the power steering pump?
Quote from: Chris Pauluk on March 27, 2019, 02:11:23 AM
Any more pictures?
Did you get the power steering pump, bracket and the whole shebang?
Any pictures of the bracket and the power steering pump?
No I didn't change the power steering pump, it wasn't useful because mine is in very good condition.
I changed 2 hoses betwin power steering BORGESON and the original power steering pump
No need to change de pitarm if you will choose the good power steering BORGESON (Mine for a 70 cuda).
You will need to measure the diameter of the axle (Pitarm) before ordering the BORGESON power steering.
Any long term updates?
I just bought the full setup.
According to several people the stock power steering pump is inadequate to push the Borgeson unit properly
Nothing special since installation.
Everything works perfectly :bigthumb:
What kind of power steering sauce are you running in it? 😁
Oil DEXTRON III
For power steering pump, be certain you're using ONLY the Saginaw style pump.... the older Federal pump will NOT keep up with any quick action LRLRL etc of the gear box, and even worse when the rpms increase.
NOTE: I'm aware there are some newer late-model design pumps entering the market... I'm not sure IF they are as good as the Saginaw pumps (in other words, not having the power assist going away with rapid LRLRLR actions).
I have a rebuilt 73 Signaw style pump that feeds the hydroboost brake system and then the Borgeson box. In curb side parking maneuvers, engine idle around 850-900 RPM, the pump makes squeaky noises. I tighten the drive belt and it did not help. The noise goes away if I gas it and increase engine RPM to about 1200.
Quote from: MOPAR MITCH on February 04, 2020, 12:25:50 PM
For power steering pump, be certain you're using ONLY the Saginaw style pump.... the older Federal pump will NOT keep up with any quick action LRLRL etc of the gear box, and even worse when the rpms increase.
NOTE: I'm aware there are some newer late-model design pumps entering the market... I'm not sure IF they are as good as the Saginaw pumps (in other words, not having the power assist going away with rapid LRLRLR actions).
That's an interesting note about the Federal vs Saginaw pump. I specifically asked the Borgeson rep that recently popped up on FEBO, if my '71 Federal pump was compatible and he said no problem. I wonder if they are aware of the situation you describe?
The Federal ps pump will work.... but its no good for any "performance" orientated driving where you use rapid LRLRLR manuevers, and its worse with higher rpms. Literally, the power assist goes away. Stay with the proven Saginaw unit and enjoy your driving without worries.
I was talking with Peter Bergman from Bergman Auto Craft and he said the Borgeson box needs more than what the federal pump can put out, Borgeson dials in the Saginaw pump specifically for the Borgeson...
You would have to go with something else if you're going to run your power steering and hydroboost
Additionally, I'd suggest to further talk with Peter from Bergman... he's a Mopar guy and sells the Borgenson ps boxes, plus the correct column adapter that he developed.... as well as Saginaw pumps. Forget about a Federal pump.. they are not performance orientated (despite being put onto the cars by MaMopar for performance vehicles... they should've tested them first for performance driving.. and they probably simply got a better $ deal to purchase the Federal pumps back then (IMO).
That is $165 for Peter's version PS pump and looks like pulley is not included. It also looks different from the stock Signaw pump. I wonder if a smaller diameter pulley on a stock pump might do the trick? My pump seems to work fine other than the squeak during parking.
Quote from: 7212Mopar on February 07, 2020, 12:44:01 PM
That is $165 for Peter's version PS pump and looks like pulley is not included. It also looks different from the stock Signaw pump. I wonder if a smaller diameter pulley on a stock pump might do the trick? My pump seems to work fine other than the squeak during parking.
You're not doing mods like these if you're worried about originality.
Function.
I bought the new pump, pulley, everything needed to make this 100% bolt up.