Just passing this along.
Bare metal suspension parts are a PITA to keep looking perfectly rust free and I refuse to paint them. So what's better than paint for durability and longevity? Powder coating, hands down. My 6bbl Cuda was done 15 years ago and I powder coated absolutely everything on the bottom. It still looks as good as it did from day one.
I've been experimenting with clear powder coating those parts that were originally bare metal. I glass bead, then dip stain to get the original "type" color of a piece that hasn't been manipulated. Glass beading changes the color considerably from what the base metal was originally. Of course, the better the part (pits wise), the better the results. The small dark spots you see are the numerous pits in the part.
Here is a strut rod powder coated with satin clear, great results except for the shine. I have flat clear on the way and will post the results. One thing I can tell you, unless you're using non-catalyzed jingle can amateurish paint, it's much cheaper and way faster with superior longevity to powder coat. I did that entire strut, from start to finish in 30 minutes, 15 of it was bake time. For an investment of less the $400, I have everything I need including the oven.
Here's the bare metal part after 30 seconds with a scotch-brite.
Try https://magicguard.com/collections/car-care/products/rust-prevention-magic-4-oz. Easy to apply and it works. Have used it on several bare metal parts on my suspension and there is no sign of rust.
I've wondered how long RPM lasts
I used that RPM from ESC on my disc brake shields and muffler shields 2 years ago and they still look like the day I put them on.
I couldn't imagine restoring a car and not painting any of the suspension, stock or not, but that's just me. Sometimes what the factory did wasn't correct in the terms of "lasting"...
IDK.... I appreciate your efforts and workmanship but if your wanting" correct" then really powder coating is not really "correct either? I'm just a rattle can sort of guy easier and gets the results I require, quick, cheaper and easy? Easy to touch up down the road if necessary too? I can appreciate your in a different "gig" than I am. I just build drivers not museum quality pieces.
Looks good. :twothumbsup:
Suspension is what I would consider rattle-canning. Nothing wrong with that! It's something you're never going to polish or pressure spray....you want it SEALED and PROTECTED.
at 400 degrees, metal has a molecular change. Now, are you racing this car....dont know, but one thing is for sure as an engineer anything over 275 degrees heat effects the molecular structure and on top of that powder coat is thick so flexing might end up cracking the coat....just an opinion. Buy a spray gun, use urethane with a hardener, put it in your home oven and call it good. Bare metal, ECS makes a product as well as others that allow you to heat up (lightly) bare metal and apply a wax based coat or Chemical coat that seeps into the metal's porosity. This stops the composition of rust and metal degradation. Finally, I live in LA and there is a company called Penetrate that does metal refinishing.......Think of a gun barrel. The metal can be colored they way you want it, phosphate and oil, Black oxide, and it lasts for years. You want to make look new...rub it with gun oil.
This thread is perfect timing since I am rebuilding my front end to my ARR.
Jingle canning parts on a car is fine for the average enthusiast that doesn't have access to all the equipment required, they own the car, do what you want. However, a customer sending me 10's of thousands of dollars for a "complete" restoration expects a little more than that. If the part is painted, catalyzed epoxies and paint is all we use. Between the 3 Cuda's currently going thru my shop, all three customers want the "OE" look with the ability to drive the car with minimal upkeep. There's not a product on the planet, that I'm aware of, that either doesn't have the longevity like the wax based products that need to be applied from time to time or the petroleum based that may last a little longer but changes the appearance of the parts. I'm not talking about NOS and date coded everything, new parts with the representation of how the car was when built new.
Bare metal parts for the "average Joe" may not be that important, in my business it is. And more than anything, the appearance of an un-manipulated bare metal part. If a part can be unnoticeably "hard" coated that will last for many many years without any maintenance? I'm all over it. Like I mentioned before, my 6bbl car has powder coated everything on the bottom and it looks as good today as it did 15 years ago when I restored it. Also, unlike what you might think, powder coating is flexible. Also, commercial powder coaters tend to apply the material heavy so the part has a "thick" paint appearance. I control the thickness by how it's applied.
In reference to changing the molecular structure of the base metal, when heating it to 350 degrees for 15 minutes, the integrity loss is negligible.
Quote from: Rich G. on October 14, 2019, 05:53:19 PM
I used that RPM from ESC on my disc brake shields and muffler shields 2 years ago and they still look like the day I put them on.
Did you use new brake and muffler shields? The new ones we use are plated bright zinc (brake shields that were black originally) and galvanized (muffler shields). If so, it's the plating giving you the longevity, not the RPM wax you applied.
There are many ways to do things wrong in the eyes of the OE Gods...
First off....As far as I know. RPM, developed by ECS, is basically the only coating on bare metal parts that is accepted when having a car judged. There's no way that a "bare metal" part that has been painted, or clear coated will get past the keen eye of the judges.
Secondly, any "bare metal" part that has been manipulated by media blasting of any sort will not pass either. Anything from glass bead to sand to walnut shells changes the appearance of the metal. The only recourse participants have is to find NOS parts, just ask Dave Waldon (R.I.P.), how many tens of thousands he spent on NOS Mopar parts ....or they can try to find the cleanest part in North America, chenically strip it, then polish any imperfections out of it...it's insane the level people are taking their cars to achieve OE Gold these days.
With the restorations I've done, I have never tried, or never wanted to try to even come close to anything of that caliber, it's way beyond me. My customer base generally wants the "OE Look" but wants everything coated, painted to look the part without fear of it rusting down the road...This can be achieved with powder coating or a good quality paint, even from a spray can.
Powder coating is very durable and will out last many types of paint jobs hands down. The only downside is the fact that you can not prep the item with any type bondo or spot putty to fill the rust pits and imperfections. This really comes into play with larger parts like K frames or rear axle housings. Also the cost is much more, at least in my area, to get a quality job done and not some guy cooking parts in his Mom's oven.
So it boils down to personal preference, or customer preference in some cases...
I know if I showed the above strut rod to most of my customer base along side of one that was powder coated a nice metal colour silver, or along side one painted with a Seymore's stainless steel spray bomb....I know what they would choose every time. :alan2cents:
It looked bare metal to me so i put it on! LOL . I just want things to look pretty, neat and clean!
Quote from: anlauto on October 15, 2019, 05:23:31 AM
There are many ways to do things wrong in the eyes of the OE Gods...
First off....As far as I know. RPM, developed by ECS, is basically the only coating on bare metal parts that is accepted when having a car judged. There's no way that a "bare metal" part that has been painted, or clear coated will get past the keen eye of the judges.
Secondly, any "bare metal" part that has been manipulated by media blasting of any sort will not pass either. Anything from glass bead to sand to walnut shells changes the appearance of the metal. The only recourse participants have is to find NOS parts, just ask Dave Waldon (R.I.P.), how many tens of thousands he spent on NOS Mopar parts ....or they can try to find the cleanest part in North America, chenically strip it, then polish any imperfections out of it...it's insane the level people are taking their cars to achieve OE Gold these days.
With the restorations I've done, I have never tried, or never wanted to try to even come close to anything of that caliber, it's way beyond me. My customer base generally wants the "OE Look" but wants everything coated, painted to look the part without fear of it rusting down the road...This can be achieved with powder coating or a good quality paint, even from a spray can.
Powder coating is very durable and will out last many types of paint jobs hands down. The only downside is the fact that you can not prep the item with any type bondo or spot putty to fill the rust pits and imperfections. This really comes into play with larger parts like K frames or rear axle housings. Also the cost is much more, at least in my area, to get a quality job done and not some guy cooking parts in his Mom's oven.
So it boils down to personal preference, or customer preference in some cases...
I know if I showed the above strut rod to most of my customer base along side of one that was powder coated a nice metal colour silver, or along side one painted with a Seymore's stainless steel spray bomb....I know what they would choose every time. :alan2cents:
Lets try this again so even you can understand, best "representation" of OE without spending all the big money on NOS parts and be user friendly. Since you do not communicate with "actual" true high end OE restoration shops like the Mike Mancini's or Paul Jacobs/Troy Angelly's, you have absolutely no clue how bare metal parts are handled on OE judged cars. And yes some bare metal parts are manipulated with media and treated. We communicate often about processes and current on going restorations, they have been friends of mine for years.
Just curious, how can you possibly comment on anything like this topic when you have absolutely no knowledge about it. And no, not even you can tell there is a coating on this part, besides, it not being judged OE. You say things like "I know if I showed the above strut rod to most of my customer base along side of one that was powder coated a nice metal colour silver, or along side one painted with a Seymore's stainless steel spray bomb....I know what they would choose every time", how can you possibly know that when you have no clue how to get to that level for a comparision. Maybe it's the type of clients I restore cars for, or better yet, they're not given all the options. What I can say is, any of the customers I show both to, since I can do both, opt for the actual bare metal look and sometimes request painted parts because of the on going maintenance issues with keeping up with the bare metal. You are way out of your league here, it's very interesting how you find a way to interject yourself in things like this that you have no clue. I've mentioned this before, remember when you were at my shop and was totally amazed how I got all the bare metal parts for my T/A to look the way they did? I do.
You know Alan, I've left you along after your "true" quality came out with Eric's purple convertible, people kinda get it now. You can polish a turd and make it look like a million dollars with a picture posted on the internet. I never mentioned your name on any responses I made on his thread and only did by his request, I only stated facts with pictures. It's a shame that car is so bad he has to spend a bunch more money to finish the entire body that you said "looked nice" remember? Eric's car is an embarrassment for spending north of 100K for a "total restoration"..
So, back to the topic, yes, OE cars do have manipulated bare metal parts that are treated and I do know that first hand on cars winning OE gold. I want the best of both worlds for my customers that want an "as new" restoration, bare metal and lets keep it from rusting for many years to come.
How about this, if you don't have first hand knowledge or the talent to comment about something, DON'T!
Here's an example of what I was referring to.
The purple car has a nice metallic silver powder coat, while the green car has rattle can Seymore paint with a satin clear. Neither one have that pitted bare metal look that some people may prefer, but both are a nice representation of the "bare metal" look that give it the OE appearance, while retaining durability.
To each there own. :dunno:
I know which "look" I prefer and certain most of my customers would agree.
I have a funny feeling these 2 guys don't like each other! Yikes
Quote from: anlauto on October 15, 2019, 09:05:49 AM
Here's an example of what I was referring to.
The purple car has a nice metallic silver powder coat, while the green car has rattle can Seymore paint with a satin clear. Neither one have that pitted bare metal look that some people may prefer, but both are a nice representation of the "bare metal" look that give it the OE appearance, while retaining durability.
To each there own. :dunno:
I know which "look" I prefer and certain most of my customers would agree.
Just curious, why would you leave the pits in the bare metal? Oh never mind, I'll give you a pass on that one since you probably don't have any of the tools required to do that type of work. Anyway, you like to paint all the suspension parts? Fine, that's cool. But why, as a "professional" self promoting restorer, would you use the cheapest, thinnest, non-catalyzed paint? You think that's a better coating than a superior catalyzed paint? Do you think a jingle can is the best way to go? I'm always willing to learn. Do you own a paint gun? Does your neighborhood allow you to spray real paint in your two car garage? One of the issue's I have with you Anal, you somehow have an opinion on everything, much of it you have never done or have the ability to do. Your always defending your way, yet, the monies you charge for it could pay for something way better from a professional MOPAR shop.
I'm very intimate with Eric's purple Cuda you did, https://forum.e-bodies.org/your-restoration-project-roseville-moparts/10/seo/12815/ extremely unimpressed for a 100K+ job, the body & paint work among many other issues are absolutely awful. Ross's 71 340 shaker will make your cars look like the high school shop class did the body/paint and assembly work, he's just an "average" guy doing he's own car and you're a "professional". I've seen his work on all his parts and assemblies, I would hire him for sure, you're not at the same dinner table as him.
You defend your process's because you have no idea or no other options, the rear convertible panels were only 10 shades off from the door panels for god's sake. The jingle can you used was as close as you could find? Is that the excuse? Do you have the ability to swing colors around so they match? Can you do that? The better shops certainly can. I believe you honestly think it is "nice".
I have no problem with what you do or how you farm out most all the work. Sending the body out to the average body shop puzzles me though. You defended the work they did, said it looked nice after seeing all the issues before it shipped. Don't come at me when you aren't close to that type of work. I know it's hard for you, try not to comment on things you have no clue about. Don't take this the wrong way, you really don't know what you don't know, that's dangerous when your charging the type of money you do for the type of restorations you do. When I sent you that PM, I was very serious about doing the bodies for you so you won't your tit in a ringer again, never heard a word from you.
Powder coating is far and away more durable than any sprayed epoxies or jingle can period. With the number of cars going thru a shop, It makes sense to have that type of equipment, it's less expensive to powder coat than spraying "quality" paint out of a gun. A shop could get set up for less than $500 depending what the oven is. With the multitude of available colors now available, why not powder coat? It may not make sense for the enthusiast to purchase the equipment, it sure does for a shop though. I don't know one single quality MOPAR restoration shop the ever sprays a part out of a jingle can. You must know something we don't.
As Confucius once said, "some people talk tall and deliver small, others can do it all.
Ok, your turn.
I'm uncertain HEMICUDA why you chose to make this personal ? :dunno:
I joined this thread to show other options to get a nice clean appearance of parts on a car that should be "bare steel" .
Your strut rod pictures obviously look the closest to bare steel, yet have the durability of powder coating. No ones is arguing that point.
You mentioned that's what you customers prefer and it's great you can provide that look for them.
I prefer the "new" steel look achieved with either silver paint or powder coat over the pitted bare metal look and that's why I included those two pictures. Sorry, I don't have pictures of "just a strut rod"
My intention was never to compared my restoration work to yours, or anyone else's for that matter. I don't really care what your shop turns out, it really makes no difference to me.
I've done complete restorations on almost 50 cars now, with 38 of them being E-Bodies. I'm very happy and proud of every single car that has left my little two car garage, and I have a long list of happy customers with more coming in all the time. I'm busier then I want to be most days. :worship:
In my opinion you should really concentrate more on what you're doing and not worry so much what others are doing. :alan2cents:
:popcorn:
On my car I powder coated the metal parts that were free of any rust pitting. On the parts that have heavy pitting I do body work to fill in the pits and then paint them. To experiment I took some pitted parts to the powder coater and despite them saying they could fill in the pits most pits were still visible after they were done? Those parts were then stripped and painted. I my opinion nothing looks worse than rust pits under paint or powder coat. :alan2cents:
Alright guys seriously . . Let's play nice here. :grouphug: There are multiple ways to accomplish most things and who's to say which is right . . . especially with Mother Mopar.
Alan you have no clue what your customers really want or expect in a restoration, and your arrogance in this respect is obvious for all to see in this thread. You certainly don't speak for me when you kid yourself that you know what your customers want.
To prove my point, you lost your next two deposit-paying customers for 2020 based on your ignorance of the resto process (i.e. not knowing what customers want and expect) and also because of your arrogance which again is readily apparent. This was directly from my feedback to them based on my experience with you.
It's disappointing to guys like me to see you stepping all over Mike's thread when he's showing what he can bring to the table skills wise. If you are so busy these days then why are you in your basement and online here 24/7? Too bad you have to interject yourself into every single thread, I am not the only one getting tired of the Alan clown show on every post when all I want to do is hop on this site and see what folks are doing with their cars.
Back on topic, parts look great Mike.
What other parts are you experimenting with?
I guess the oven size is the rate limiting step here?
I'd be curious if and engine block could be powder coated?
That would hold up really nice if it's doable.
Quote from: Spikedog08 on October 15, 2019, 04:52:15 PM
Alright guys seriously . . Let's play nice here. :grouphug: There are multiple ways to accomplish most things and who's to say which is right . . . especially with Mother Mopar.
You are right Dave. There are lots of AI (artificial intelligence) posts, too!
Jim
Quote from: ErikR on October 16, 2019, 05:37:01 AM
Alan you have no clue what your customers really want or expect in a restoration, and your arrogance in this respect is obvious for all to see in this thread. You certainly don't speak for me when you kid yourself that you know what your customers want.
To prove my point, you lost your next two deposit-paying customers for 2020 based on your ignorance of the resto process (i.e. not knowing what customers want and expect) and also because of your arrogance which again is readily apparent. This was directly from my feedback to them based on my experience with you.
It's disappointing to guys like me to see you stepping all over Mike's thread when he's showing what he can bring to the table skills wise. If you are so busy these days then why are you in your basement and online here 24/7? Too bad you have to interject yourself into every single thread, I am not the only one getting tired of the Alan clown show on every post when all I want to do is hop on this site and see what folks are doing with their cars.
"Too bad you have to interject yourself into every single thread"To this comment I totally disagree. I have never met Alan in person and never even spoke to him on the phone. That being said, in my opinion Alan is the most helpful individual on this site. Whenever I have a question, Alan is usually the first to answer and is pretty well always correct. Lets face the facts who else on this site has restored over 30 E-bodies? :bigthumb:
Quote from: ErikR on October 16, 2019, 05:39:53 AM
Back on topic, parts look great Mike.
What other parts are you experimenting with?
I guess the oven size is the rate limiting step here?
I'd be curious if and engine block could be powder coated?
That would hold up really nice if it's doable.
engine block is exactly what I was thinking.
at 500 bucks the set up is cheap enough I could powder coat everything but the K frame underneath. in my moms oven.
I hate painted blocks. They always have chips and look cruddy.
Quote from: 750-h2 on October 15, 2019, 04:50:31 PM
On my car I powder coated the metal parts that were free of any rust pitting. On the parts that have heavy pitting I do body work to fill in the pits and then paint them. To experiment I took some pitted parts to the powder coater and despite them saying they could fill in the pits most pits were still visible after they were done? Those parts were then stripped and painted. I my opinion nothing looks worse than rust pits under paint or powder coat. :alan2cents:
You are absolutely correct, I would never power coat or paint over pits either, I used an old strut rod, that happened to be pitted, for the test, I was seeing if I could powder coat it without seeing the coating, it worked extremely well. As I said earlier, this is NOT for an OE judged car with thousands of dollars of NOS parts on it, those cars will have to deal with maintaining true bare metal. I refuse to restore a car and have it judged as a true "OE", I have the processes, however, I have no interest looking for all the NOS parts it takes. That's a Mike Mancini or Frank Battleson game.
I have found that commercial powder coaters tend to apply way to much powder which makes the part look "thick". I wanted to see if I could control the amount of powder to correct that look. If your parts are pitted, you can still powder coat for material build up and sand the pits out and re-powder coat. Obviously you can't do the with a bare metal part, the pits need to be removed from the base metal itself before the chemical treatment and powder coating.
No matter what you put on the part, all pits must be removed. If you're not going the bare metal route and you had identical parts sitting side by side, one painted and the other powder coated, which one would you want? Jingle can paint shouldn't even be in this thread discussion, we are talking about an "original" look with "superior" longevity and durability. Jingle paint is way down on the durability scale, catalyzed epoxies are head and shoulders above jingle and powder coating kills them both.
I actually do know what every single one of my customers want, suspension parts that will look sweet with an original appearance and minimal maintenance that will last for many many years.
Wow...you guys are really good taking this thread in a different direction and making it a personal attack against me and my business. :thumbdown:
If you read it from the beginning, we were talking about methods for restoring strut rods for a "bare metal" appearance. HEMICUDA started showing how he blasts them and clear powder coats, etc... This raised questions/comments from KAWAHONDA, BOSSGOLD, Rich G, Brads70 etc... about other methods including rattle can painting.
After I read and viewed the pictures in this thread I decided to comment sharing my knowledge of the subject and show the readers other options on the same subject. That's pretty much how a public forum works.
I gave Cody a 100% commitment to come on here as often, and as much as I can, 24/7 to offer my experiences, comment on the threads, answer the questions I can, and offer positive support to those members restoring their own cars.
I will continue to do so, everyday that I'm able. :)
Quote from: 750-h2 on October 16, 2019, 07:09:28 AM
Quote from: ErikR on October 16, 2019, 05:37:01 AM
Alan you have no clue what your customers really want or expect in a restoration, and your arrogance in this respect is obvious for all to see in this thread. You certainly don't speak for me when you kid yourself that you know what your customers want.
To prove my point, you lost your next two deposit-paying customers for 2020 based on your ignorance of the resto process (i.e. not knowing what customers want and expect) and also because of your arrogance which again is readily apparent. This was directly from my feedback to them based on my experience with you.
It's disappointing to guys like me to see you stepping all over Mike's thread when he's showing what he can bring to the table skills wise. If you are so busy these days then why are you in your basement and online here 24/7? Too bad you have to interject yourself into every single thread, I am not the only one getting tired of the Alan clown show on every post when all I want to do is hop on this site and see what folks are doing with their cars.
"Too bad you have to interject yourself into every single thread"
To this comment I totally disagree. I have never met Alan in person and never even spoke to him on the phone. That being said, in my opinion Alan is the most helpful individual on this site. Whenever I have a question, Alan is usually the first to answer and is pretty well always correct. Lets face the facts who else on this site has restored over 30 E-bodies? :bigthumb:
Interesting comment about 30 ebodies restored. Reminds me of the conversation I had with the owner of the pink AAR we're currently restoring. We chatted for a while in my office, then walked to the assembly side where I had my finished AAR up on the lift, he almost fell over when he walked under it. I asked him what he thought and all he said was, "holy sh1t, that's exactly what I want!". Then I said, "unfortunately, that's not what your car will look like". He didn't say anything, just looked at me with a puzzled look on his face, then I said, "it'll be better". I explained to him, "every car we do gets just a little better than the last". New processes, materials, techniques. I've seen the 30th you're talking about that we did a bunch of work on it just to make it presentable, I would hate to be that first customer.
Here are a few parts I had Powder coated using a Matte clear over glass beaded metal, The pinion snubber was just stripped in Evaporust and finished in Matte clear you can see a difference in glass beaded vs. stripped metal before the coating.
As I said in your build thread, those parts look fantastic :worship: Your car will look great when finished :bigthumb:
This whole thread is making me angry!!!
....because I now wish I went the complete bare metal powdercoat treatment on all of my suspension pieces that are currently RPM'd or Seymours Stainless. I will definitely go this route on the next one for sure.
A really quick job on both for a comparison. Both parts were blasted and treated, one was really nice and the other pitted and flat power coated, which is which?
I like the one on the right!! :banana: Looks great!
This can be a wonderful topic and helpful to many people, but please stay on topic. Share all the techniques, tips and photos of your own work and ways you accomplished it. However, we're done talking about or comparing other people techniques, other peoples cars, or anything that is he said / she said. We're all here to help each other and sharing techniques that keep the hobby fun and alive.
Quote from: 6Pack70 on October 16, 2019, 09:49:06 AM
I like the one on the right!! :banana: Looks great!
Come on Eddie, you have to guess which is powder coated.
OK i will bite, the one on the right was the pitted and powder coated flat clear. :alan2cents:
Quote from: JS29 on October 16, 2019, 10:00:09 AM
OK i will bite, the one on the right was the pitted and powder coated flat clear. :alan2cents:
Just got off the phone with Eddie, he guessed the same. Nope, it's the one on the left that was pitted and powder coated.
Man that really is hard to tell which is which for sure. I'm buying a used oven today lol
I like the idea of powder coating bare steel parts.
No rust and parts are low maintenance.
I hate seeing parts I replaced 10 years ago, that look like crap now, because I didn't coat them.
This is the route I will take.
Keep posting samples.
Quote from: HEMICUDA on October 16, 2019, 10:45:48 AM
Quote from: JS29 on October 16, 2019, 10:00:09 AM
OK i will bite, the one on the right was the pitted and powder coated flat clear. :alan2cents:
Just got off the phone with Eddie, he guessed the same. Nope, it's the one on the left that was pitted and powder coated.
Impressive indeed! I went and looked again, I see it now. the one on the left is a little lighter in color. looking under a car, who would be able to tell. :perfect10:
Quote from: JS29 on October 16, 2019, 11:46:39 AM
Quote from: HEMICUDA on October 16, 2019, 10:45:48 AM
Quote from: JS29 on October 16, 2019, 10:00:09 AM
OK i will bite, the one on the right was the pitted and powder coated flat clear. :alan2cents:
Just got off the phone with Eddie, he guessed the same. Nope, it's the one on the left that was pitted and powder coated.
Impressive indeed! I went and looked again, I see it now. the one on the left is a little lighter in color. looking under a car, who would be able to tell. :perfect10:
That's the color they were before powder coating. I think the color differentiation might be because the left and right shock plates were manufactured at totally different times, they didn't come off the same car so when I treated the part, they took it differently. Maybe because they were done at different times, I usually do them in pairs when I'm restoring a car. I did these for the comparison. Or it could be because the big covered tub of solution I use is to old since I've been using the same stuff for 10 years now.
Obviously, the better the part is pit wise, the easier it will be to perform this process (like simple). It does take some time to remove the pits from the base metal if you're powder coating for the OE look. The other option is, powder coat the pitted part with a "simulated" bare metal or cast metal color, especially on lower control arms that are a PITA to remove pits from the metal when leaving it bare metal. Most of the lower control arm is dipped in cosmoline anyway. Put a much heavier initial coat on the pitted part and use the coating like a "build prime" and sand out all the pits and re-powder coat with a thin coating.
I can tell you this, controlling the amount of powder going on the part "in house" so it doesn't look (chubby), I will never use paint of any kind, jingle can or otherwise, on a suspension part again. After the small investment for the minimal equipment required and the powder, it's way less expensive for me not having to buy the epoxies, build primers and paint to do the same thing not to mention the superior durability and longevity powder coating offers.
Here's a picture of every single thing I need to powder coat, all the supplies and gun are in the bottom drawer. I welded casters on the bottom of the oven to raise it up some and so I can roll it around the shop and pull it out only when I need to.
HEMICUDA when you say tub of solution, what are you referring to?
What is the purpose of the solution?
Quote from: oldmoparbuff on October 17, 2019, 01:47:48 AM
HEMICUDA when you say tub of solution, what are you referring to?
What is the purpose of the solution?
It's a process I haven't given up yet. :) Essentially, it's a stain treatment of the metal to re-create the bare metal color the part had before being manipulated by a media to remove the corrosion. It's a fairly common process higher end restorers have been using for years, you've seen it on OE gold cars and didn't know it. When I run more parts for the pink AAR here, I will post pictures of the complete process, start to finish. If you would like to discuss this further, don't hesitate to call me anytime, I'm more than happy to discuss the process with you. :ohyeah:
I once sand blasted a metal bracket. Bracket looked perfect afterward with zero rust anywhere. I then clear coated it with POR15 clear. Bracket looked great, however about a year later you could start seeing a very light rusty colour under the clear. :headbang: The POR15 still looked perfect with zero damage but somehow the metal beneath it was starting to oxidize?? Ever since then I have been leery about clearing directly over sand blasted or bead blasted metal. Makes no sense I know, but it happened. :thinking:
Quote from: 750-h2 on October 17, 2019, 05:52:17 AM
I once sand blasted a metal bracket. Bracket looked perfect afterward with zero rust anywhere. I then clear coated it with POR15 clear. Bracket looked great, however about a year later you could start seeing a very light rusty colour under the clear. :headbang: The POR15 still looked perfect with zero damage but somehow the metal beneath it was starting to oxidize?? Ever since then I have been leery about clearing directly over sand blasted or bead blasted metal. Makes no sense I know, but it happened. :thinking:
I would half to say the issue is with the POR15. The only way I can imagine the part rusting is the POR15 is pouris and letting moisture get to the part. If you encapsulate rust from any air or moisture, it will not rust. I've only ever used the black POR15 years ago, that formula held up big time, never used the clear.
I usually heat the metal after blasting to make sure it is dry as well. Lightly of course.
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on October 17, 2019, 07:03:26 AM
I usually heat the metal after blasting to make sure it is dry as well. Lightly of course.
humidity in the air can cause issues, an untreated piece of bare metal won't rust as fast as blasted metal. :alan2cents:
Quote from: 750-h2 on October 17, 2019, 05:52:17 AM
I once sand blasted a metal bracket. Bracket looked perfect afterward with zero rust anywhere. I then clear coated it with POR15 clear. Bracket looked great, however about a year later you could start seeing a very light rusty colour under the clear. :headbang: The POR15 still looked perfect with zero damage but somehow the metal beneath it was starting to oxidize?? Ever since then I have been leery about clearing directly over sand blasted or bead blasted metal. Makes no sense I know, but it happened. :thinking:
Something that comes to mind. Maybe some very minor moisture in the air supply for blasting. You might not see it but it's probably there. If you looked under a microscope you might have seen it on the metal but unable with the naked eye. That stuff will develop with time under the paint surface unless you keep it climate and humidity controlled. Temp changes that make steel sweat really aggravate the problem. :alan2cents:
Change in temperature can make metal condensate! the higher the dew point the worse it gets. One time i blasted a bracket, etch-primed it went back and found rust on it. :pullinghair: after. I left the fan running and ether the air from the shop got damp, or the compresser air, or the air in between caused it. When i sandblast on a vehicle now i etch it as soon as i am done. I worry about the sand in the primer later!
Detailing some parts on a blue 4 speed AAR Cuda we're restoring, this is the 3rd member right out of the blast cabinet.
This is showing the metal staining, it looks like "flash" rust, it's not. The solution I have in a tub is, at lease, 10 years old, that's part of the residue you see here. I have a couple more gallons coming in.
This is what the finished part looks like after polishing. Needs a little bit more in the nooks and crannies, not much. After blasting, the metal staining takes 10 seconds and the polishing around 10 minutes give or take.
Once I get the new powder coating gun today, I will be coating the part with a thin coat of flat clear.
What is metal staining? :popcorn:
"Cold" bluing is generally a selenium dioxide based compound that colours steel black, or more often a very dark grey. Any shop that can do "real" judged OE cars uses this process regularly. You've seen it on OE judged cars and didn't realize it.
You can never duplicate the patina of true bare metal with any type of paint. I want to be able to offer the OE bare metal with out the issues inherent with bare metal parts.
That looks really good.
I understand what I'm showing here isn't for every one, for me, I cringe when I see originally bare metal parts painted on "so called" restored cars. In addition, I don't like the user unfriendliness of bare metal parts, I'm going to get my cake and eat it to.
While not going as extensive with the discoloration here and there I'm pretty happy with the cast iron powder coat. In person it's hard to tell it's not raw.
Looks great Shane, like I said before, I want bare metal parts that will last as long as your cast colored powder coating. Let's try not to confuse what this thread is about, bare metal parts. Painting or colored powder coating is easy to do. What you're doing is exactly the same as what I'm showing here, powder coating over bare cast or steel parts except your powder has a color and mine does not.
Problem with yours is, it looks way to good. ;)
After visiting Mike today to see my Cuda I can honestly tell you that the pictures Mike posted above do not do the part justice....the camera cannot capture how good the part actually looks in person.
Quote from: 76orangewagon on October 25, 2019, 08:05:00 AM
After visiting Mike today to see my Cuda I can honestly tell you that the pictures Mike posted above do not do the part justice....the camera cannot capture how good the part actually looks in person.
Oh yea, you forgot your street sign.
In the over it goes, flat clear this time.
Finished, your cast grey power coating looks great Shane (top photo), however, duplicating a bare cast part it does not. The two process shown here are identical except for two simple steps, staining and polishing the metal before powder coating.
Cast grey power coating, as good as it looks, will never duplicate the look of bare cast metal.
In addition, jingle can paint is the absolute worst paint to use on parts, especially ones on the exterior, unless durability and longevity is NOT your end game. If all you're looking for are pretty pictures as soon as the car is done and not driven? Jingle can paint works great.
Very happy with the results, now I have to take the bare metal suspension parts off my done AAR and T/A to re-do them in flat clear powder. :headbang:
That's the best I've seen for cast look hands down.
:1place:
I prefer Shanes powder coat by looking at the pics. If your gonna over restore everything better than new it may as well look fresh cast out of the mold.....
Quote from: ratroaster on October 27, 2019, 05:53:59 PM
I prefer Shanes powder coat by looking at the pics. If your gonna over restore everything better than new it may as well look fresh cast out of the mold.....
That was the point, cast colored powder coating looks nothing like an uncoated casting. As I said before, I want the parts to look like it did when the car was built with all the advantages of powder coating. There's nothing wrong with Shane's, the type of customers I restore cars for want it as close to "as new" as possible as well as I do. If what I was doing didn't achieve that look, it would certainly be done like Shane's. If my customer wants the cast colored powder, no problem, that's what they'll get. We can do anything a customer desires here, however, Mr. Jingle isn't one of them.
Cooked another batch this morning. Took 60 minutes from blasting to entering the oven, another 20 for cook time. I put the old tie rods back in the sleeves to protect the threads from being powder coated. The parts look a bit darker in the picture than they really are.
LOOKS GOOD to me. I'll be trying it in a couple weeks myself.
Quote from: HEMICUDA on October 29, 2019, 05:40:25 AM
Cooked another batch this morning. Took 60 minutes from blasting to entering the oven, another 20 for cook time. I put the old tie rods back in the sleeves to protect the threads from being powder coated. The parts look a bit darker in the picture than they really are.
Looks really good Mike! Now I am thinking of redoing mine at some point. I left everything natural and used RPM on all my suspension parts.
I threw this strut rod in the front flower bed on Oct. 15 and pulled it out yesterday, it has rained and snowed, warm and cold with zero rust. The powder coating flat clear on bare metal parts has worked out so well, my new 40" x 40" x 72" inside dimension powder coating oven will be delivered next week. Made sure it was large enough to do the rear end housings and k-members. Short of the black parts, every bare metal suspension part will fit in the over with one cook cycle.
Powder coating, without question, is far and away the very best way to coat a part for durability and longevity especially on a car that will be driven.
Awesome!
So, in conclusion, this effort shows that you have been thinking inside the box! :thinking: :haha: :rofl:
Jim
That is awesome :twothumbsup:
Quote from: Slotts on November 13, 2019, 05:19:14 AM
Awesome!
So, in conclusion, this effort shows that you have been thinking inside the box! :thinking: :haha: :rofl:
Jim
Or inside the hot box! :)
Quote from: Slotts on November 13, 2019, 05:19:14 AM
Awesome!
So, in conclusion, this effort shows that you have been thinking inside the box! :thinking: :haha: :rofl:
Jim
You're a funny guy Jimmy. :D
Quote from: JS29 on November 13, 2019, 05:27:11 AM
Quote from: Slotts on November 13, 2019, 05:19:14 AM
Awesome!
So, in conclusion, this effort shows that you have been thinking inside the box! :thinking: :haha: :rofl:
Jim
Or inside the hot box! :)
WOW!! Gunna have to go home and play in the box the kids came in. :yes:
If you choose to step up and powder coat your parts, one thing that is very important to understand is the "Faraday Cage Effect". Attached is a video explaining this situation. The one piece of advice I can give you, do those areas first. When you initially charge the part, make sure you have the voltage on the lowest setting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im52XJTx0v4
This front hanger was also in the flower bed, notice there's no rust on the outside of the part and where there is rust on the inside. Do your homework about the Faraday Cage issue, all powder coaters have to deal with it. It's not an issue if handled properly.
The path of lest resistance, That makes sense. Good to know. :thinking:
I've been doing the Mike Ross metal test thing and here's a example from me. It's dead nuts. The tie rod is straight out of the box ( new ) next to a drag link I did .
Quote from: pink aar on November 25, 2019, 06:01:17 AM
I've been doing the Mike Ross metal test thing and here's a example from me. It's dead nuts. The tie rod is straight out of the box ( new ) next to a drag link I did .
See Jay, I told you, that wasn't so difficult.
Everything worked so well, I'm stepping it up a little. The new oven can do every bare metal part in one bake with an inside dimension of 44" x 44" x 72" high. The second bake will be all the semi-gloss black parts like the rear end housing, trans cross member, torsion bars, k-member and front sway bar brackets. I will also be doing all the seat frames, garnish moldings and dash frame (correct black finishes of course). I also picked up an industrial powder coating gun.
I will always have the little oven for misc. small parts I might need coated. I don't have a piece of equipment in my shop that's not on wheels, I made the rack and the cart to load/unload it.
Good to understand how things work & the problems that come up
Many years ago I to was a trained amateur restorer jingle can master. :haha: :rofl:
Looks great! :clapping: Nicely done.
Quote from: pink aar on November 25, 2019, 06:01:17 AM
I've been doing the Mike Ross metal test thing and here's a example from me. It's dead nuts. The tie rod is straight out of the box ( new ) next to a drag link I did .
A few finger prints, that's OK, it's powder coated. Unlike a jingle can paint, this stuff is super hard to hurt. All these parts will be going on a customers pink AAR we are restoring. With permission from the customer, I may start a restoration thread so the average hobbyist can see how the higher end shops restore cars so they can understand the difference between a real shop and the "Mr. Jingling's" of the world. :haha: :haha: There's a really good reason why quality shops rarely if ever use rattle can paints on anything.
Quote from: HEMICUDA on December 01, 2019, 07:10:45 AM
There's a really good reason why quality shops rarely if ever use rattle can paints on anything.
I'm beginning to get the idea that you are not keen on spray can paint.... :haha:
I have been told spray can paint is less durable than paint you mix and spray yourself, but what makes the spray bomb stuff less durable? :notsure: Not being a smart ass, I just don't know?
Single part paints (which is most common in rattle cans) do not have a catalyst so there's not a 2nd part to chemically react and harden the paint. The paint dries when the paint comes in contact with the air. Since the paint does not change chemically, after it dries it can still be chemically softened if it comes in contact with harsh chemicals like paint thinner.
Powder coating uses a dry powder that is attracted to the part by an electrical charge. After it's evenly on the part the part is baked and the dry powder paint melts evenly on the part. Sometime the powder paint will contain a catalyst that will add durability. The dry powder can also include in the mix an additive to produce a satin or matte finish. Powder coating is very durable, but can also be very brittle so it is not indestructible and even a properly applied finish can scratch or chip if it is impacted with enough force or is exposed to sharp objects.
2 Part paints (the ones that are now used to paint the outside of cars) have a catalyst added to the paint at time of use so they chemical change when they dry. It a similar chemical reaction that concrete has when it hardens. Think about how hard it would be to change concrete back to a cement after it has cured (impossible to do). The same thing happens when you add an isocyanate catalyst to a paint. It chemically changes the paint when dry and it is super durable and holds up extremely well to harsh chemicals and abuse. This is why most high end car paint jobs use 2 part paints.
Powder coating used to be expensive and only for high end shops to do, but that as changed a lot recently and now you can get very high quality powders and do the same quality job in your garage at home with a small investment in equipment. Also, rattle cans have advanced so they can use the 2 part paints. Now it's possible to have the advance high end quality paints in a rattle can. The cost is much higher than single part rattle can paint (not to be confused with single stage paint). Most single part rattle can paints will run a couple bucks up to maybe $10 or so. 2 part rattle cans that have a catalyst (called 2K aerosol rattle can paint) start at about $25 a can and they can only be used for a day or two after they have been activated.
Hopes that helps.
Quote from: dodj on December 01, 2019, 07:42:03 AM
I have been told spray can paint is less durable than paint you mix and spray yourself, but what makes the spray bomb stuff less durable? :notsure: Not being a smart ass, I just don't know?
:bravo:
Thanks very much Cody!
Now I know why some are so much more expensive. I thought it was just branding?
I've actually had some really good long lasting results with spray bombs. Call me Mr. Jingling I guess? lol
Quote from: Cuda Cody on December 01, 2019, 08:36:38 AM
Single part paints (which is most common in rattle cans) do not have a catalyst so there's not a 2nd part to chemically react and harden the paint. The paint dries when the paint comes in contact with the air. Since the paint does not change chemically, after it dries it can still be chemically softened if it comes in contact with harsh chemicals like paint thinner.
Powder coating uses a dry powder that is attracted to the part by an electrical charge. After it's evenly on the part the part is baked and the dry powder paint melts evenly on the part. Sometime the powder paint will contain a catalyst that will add durability. The dry powder can also include in the mix an additive to produce a satin or matte finish. Powder coating is very durable, but can also be very brittle so it is not indestructible and even a properly applied finish can scratch or chip if it is impacted with enough force or is exposed to sharp objects.
2 Part paints (the ones that are now used to paint the outside of cars) have a catalyst added to the paint at time of use so they chemical change when they dry. It a similar chemical reaction that concrete has when it hardens. Think about how hard it would be to change concrete back to a cement after it has cured (impossible to do). The same thing happens when you add an isocyanate catalyst to a paint. It chemically changes the paint when dry and it is super durable and holds up extremely well to harsh chemicals and abuse. This is why most high end car paint jobs use 2 part paints.
Powder coating used to be expensive and only for high end shops to do, but that as changed a lot recently and now you can get very high quality powders and do the same quality job in your garage at home with a small investment in equipment. Also, rattle cans have advanced so they can use the 2 part paints. Now it's possible to have the advance high end quality paints in a rattle can. The cost is much higher than single part rattle can paint (not to be confused with single stage paint). Most single part rattle can paints will run a couple bucks up to maybe $10 or so. 2 part rattle cans that have a catalyst (called 2K aerosol rattle can paint) start at about $25 a can and they can only be used for a day or two after they have been activated.
Hopes that helps.
Quote from: dodj on December 01, 2019, 07:42:03 AM
I have been told spray can paint is less durable than paint you mix and spray yourself, but what makes the spray bomb stuff less durable? :notsure: Not being a smart ass, I just don't know?
You are absolutely correct Cody, however, lets qualify your comparison. I'm not talking about un-catalyzed paint, it has NO business in any durability discussion, you can scratch it off with your finger nail for goodness sakes. I would equate a catalyzed painted part as a peanut shell and a powder coated part a walnut shell. Sure, you can crush both with a hammer, difference is, a powder coated part needs a far larger hammer to accomplish the same result. A painted part shouldn't even be in the same discussion as a powder coated part with respect to durability, there's NO comparison. I have a 6bbl Cuda I restored 20 years ago, absolutely every single part, inside and out, was powder coated and I mean everything, it looks just as good today as it did the day I finished the car. Nope, not a single chip and I can "quick detail" everything without a single scratch.
In reference to catalyzed jingle can paint, I'm only familiar with the Spray Max brand (Eastwood brand is made by Spray Max), I've used their 2K primer as a base on smaller parts. Since my usage was so limited and the "pot" life so short, I quit using it and mix all my 2K and spray it out of a gun. Spray Max also offers 2K paint with a limited color selection. For the "average" enthusiast, if painting is the way you're going without the use of a spray gun, I absolutely recommend the 2 part jingle can.
So, in a nut shell, if painting, use 2 part catalyzed, refrain from "single stage" jingle can paint, especially on exterior parts. (Seymour doesn't make 2 part jingle can paint that I'm aware of)
Your average enthusiast, generally speaking, will not have access to all the equipment that a "true" professional shop has. I don't know of any "higher end" restorer that uses single stage jingle can paint on anything.
There is a big bonus to power coat over paint no one has mentioned besides the durability. No small dirt specs in the finish.
That is from the lack of static electricity that you get in the normal paint process. I like to ground the object when possible. :alan2cents:
I don't have powder coat stuff but I find this has been a pretty interesting thread.
Quote from: JS29 on December 02, 2019, 06:46:26 AM
That is from the lack of static electricity that you get in the normal paint process. I like to ground the object when possible. :alan2cents:
The lack of static? :huh: I have a battery jumper cable in my paint booth with a 4 ft. ground rod going thru the floor to make sure there's zero static build up in either the body or parts being painted.
This doesn't pertain to this thread, but i have better results using painters plastic over paper as well. It keeps the over spray clung to it, resulting in cleaner jobs. :1place:
Ok Jingle Mike. You wouldn't have gotten those finger prints, if you would have used that rubbing ALCOHOl I told you about.
:thinking: :haha: :rofl: :popcorn: :pokeeye:
Quote from: pink aar on December 02, 2019, 09:30:07 AM
Ok Jingle Mike. You wouldn't have gotten those finger prints, if you would have used that rubbing ALCOHOl I told you about.
:thinking: :haha: :rofl: :popcorn: :pokeeye:
What are you talking about Jay, wipes right off with quick detailer. :D
Those are some great looking parts Mike! Nice job. :clapping:
Quote from: Cuda Cody on December 03, 2019, 12:08:06 PM
Those are some great looking parts Mike! Nice job. :clapping:
:iagree: Really have enjoyed this thread. Makes me want an oven.
What do you use to cover the ball joints Mike? Is it heat resistant?
Just so I don't get beat up here lol, I will first say that when I did all my suspension components, I powdercoated many of them including the rear axle and K frame in black. I used two part paint to do most of the other suspension pieces in cast grey (I'm not restoring a hemi car btw so I'm not gonna be anal on everything) ... Then came up with the idea to do my driveshaft and upper control arms in a flat clear powdercoat, and man what a difference! They look so good. I wished I had done more parts like that in the flat clear powdercoat because there is no beating the raw metal appearance.. and durability.
That said, in the very rare circumstance that I did rattle can a part or two on the car somewhere, I sprayed it and then hung it over my barbecue for 20 minutes cooking it at a medium heat.. and let me tell you.. what a difference it made in the durability. Baking that paint dry, even if its out of a rattle can makes the paint so much more durable than just air drying. Not saying its as good as the obviously better methods, but if you have to rattle can something, bake it after. Try it.
Quote from: ratroaster on December 03, 2019, 02:49:20 PM
What do you use to cover the ball joints Mike? Is it heat resistant?
It's a hi-temp tape commonly used in the powder coating world. The hi-temp tape, plugs for holes and caps to cover threads can be found, pretty much, anywhere. A simple search on eBay will give you an idea how much is out there.
I would have to say, it's worth the small investment for the "average" enthusiast to purchase what's needed to powder coat the exterior parts even if it's only for one car. The results and longevity makes the expense well worth it. If you do the math, used oven $100, Harbor Freight gun $70, powder is around $15-20 per pound (maybe 2 lbs. needed for one car, flat clear & semi-gloss black) and an additional $50 on tape, plugs and caps. So, for under $300 you're in business. Not to mention all the interior parts that can be done. The parts you will not be able to do in a small oven will be the leaf springs, rear end housing, k-member and torsion bars. Remember, deduct all the paint, primer and epoxies you now don't need to purchase from the investment of the powder coating materials and now the investment is negligible as long as you have a blasting cabinet. Heck, I know of a "so called" restorer that doesn't even have that, you'll just have to pay someone else to blast the parts.
In my case, as a professional restorer, it was well worth the investment to purchase a powder coating oven large enough for every part on a car as well as a much higher end gun and powder in bulk. I can now offer a "true" OE "style" restoration to my customers on their car that can be driven and still look sweet and easy to clean for a very long time . With all the huge advantages to powder coating over paint, the best part is, I don't have to charge the customer any extra for it.
I have used "real" cosmoline on my personal cars in the past, these lower control arms are done with a Krylon Battery Protector spray. The color is super close and the way it runs when sprayed is very close to cosmoline except that it dries to the touch so you won't have to worry about everything sticking to it.
If you notice, the dip line is parallel to the floor in relation to how they were hung. The dip lines were at different heights back in the day based on how much cosmoline was left in the tank, these were done based on the rust line.
Quote from: JS29 on December 02, 2019, 08:50:44 AM
This doesn't pertain to this thread, but i have better results using painters plastic over paper as well. It keeps the over spray clung to it, resulting in cleaner jobs. :1place:
Since you posted it, I will give you my :alan2cents:
What you're saying is counter intuitive, you're correct, it's the static build up in the plastic and car body the develops from spraying that attracts the over spay for sure. However, any professional painter will tell you that's a bad thing, every tiny piece of anything floating in the air as well as over spray, will not only be attracted to the plastic, will also be attracted to your top coats. It's no different than rubbing an air balloon on you hair and stick it on the wall, not good.
We also use a bunch of plastic when bagging up car bodies for paint, we don't have an overspray problem with our down draft heated paint booth. As mentioned earlier in this thread, grounding the body to prevent static build up is very important for clean top coats. :1place:
Mike - very informative thread here, thank you.
Can your provide some info on the powder coat oven you have? Things you like, dislike, what to look for, etc? Obviously size is key for large items like rear ends, leaf springs, k-frames, etc.
Powder coating is one of those things I have thought about over the years. I can see a purpose built oven to be better than an old used kitchen electric range.
Quote from: larry4406 on December 04, 2019, 02:39:09 AM
Mike - very informative thread here, thank you.
Can your provide some info on the powder coat oven you have? Things you like, dislike, what to look for, etc? Obviously size is key for large items like rear ends, leaf springs, k-frames, etc.
Powder coating is one of those things I have thought about over the years. I can see a purpose built oven to be better than an old used kitchen electric range.
To be totally honest with you Larry there's nothing about my new oven I don't like. I would still recommend using the small oven when the parts will fit. Generally, I'm filling up the big oven with a big load or large parts.
Like anything else in life, there's cheap junk and there's quality (I never buy cheap). After extensive research, I decided to purchased mine from Ted at Ted's Fabrication in PA. He's the guy that started it for this size oven for the average guy and has been building them for over 15 years. Send him an email, super quality and great guy to deal with, hit his lead time on the nose.
I opted to have my oven on wheels so I can move it around the shop when not in use and I built the cart here that holds the parts rack.
Here's the contact info, tell him I said hello.
http://www.tedsfabrication.com/tedsfabs/
Total "actual" labor time after blasting is 15 minutes.
Quote from: HEMICUDA on December 03, 2019, 09:56:12 PM
With all the huge advantages to powder coating over paint, the best part is, I don't have to charge the customer any extra for it.
As I have been following this thread with interest, I was wondering how much more a customer would be charged for the "powder coat everything" option.
Surprised to learn that you charge the same for paint or powder. Impressive. I would have thought the extra prep time and cost of running the oven would have some financial impact for the business.
:bigthumb:
Quote from: HEMICUDA on December 03, 2019, 11:26:07 PM
Quote from: JS29 on December 02, 2019, 08:50:44 AM
This doesn't pertain to this thread, but i have better results using painters plastic over paper as well. It keeps the over spray clung to it, resulting in cleaner jobs. :1place:
Since you posted it, I will give you my :alan2cents:
What you're saying is counter intuitive, you're correct, it's the static build up in the plastic and car body the develops from spraying that attracts the over spay for sure. However, any professional painter will tell you that's a bad thing, every tiny piece of anything floating in the air as well as over spray, will not only be attracted to the plastic, will also be attracted to your top coats. It's no different than rubbing an air balloon on you hair and stick it on the wall, not good.
We also use a bunch of plastic when bagging up car bodies for paint, we don't have an overspray problem with our down draft heated paint booth. As mentioned earlier in this thread, grounding the body to prevent static build up is very important for clean top coats. :1place:
I prefer liquid spray mask. Hands down provides the cleanest paint jobs. It grabs and holds any dust and you don't have to worry about any over spray creeping under the plastic or paper. It's come a long way it the last few years. Use to need special equipment and gun to apply but now you can spray it right out of a paint gun. De solves with water from a hose.
Mike, so what gun are you using now. Did you start with an Eastwood or something like it and move up. If so. could you share the advantages of what you are using now over the cheaper hobby guns.
Quote from: HEMICUDA on December 03, 2019, 10:45:59 PM
I have used "real" cosmoline on my personal cars in the past, these lower control arms are done with a Krylon Battery Protector spray. The color is super close and the way it runs when sprayed is very close to cosmoline except that it dries to the touch so you won't have to worry about everything sticking to it.
If you notice, the dip line is parallel to the floor in relation to how they were hung. The dip lines were at different heights back in the day based on how much cosmoline was left in the tank, these were done based on the rust line.
I love the fact that the Kylon Battery protector spray is still the best option for quasi Cosmoline.. I first used it back in 95... I'd tried the Eastwood Cosmoline, I'd tried the cosmoline product being sold by Roger Gibson's shop... I didn't like either.. I tried a number of other products & techniques... I was looking for a better option & remembered using Kyrlon on battery & the color was pretty close, especially if you lay it on heavy... It would develop runs like true cosmoline... I gave it a shot & was pleased with the results...
While showing my car I got a few compliments about the LCA's then around 2003 Troy Bray was doing his T/A & posted on Moparts about his testing for a substitute of cosmoline... I posted about the Kylon, he tried it & agreed it was the best thing he'd tried.... Sixteen years later Mike still gives it the thumbs up... Cool!
Quote from: dodj on December 05, 2019, 04:46:20 AM
Quote from: HEMICUDA on December 03, 2019, 09:56:12 PM
With all the huge advantages to powder coating over paint, the best part is, I don't have to charge the customer any extra for it.
As I have been following this thread with interest, I was wondering how much more a customer would be charged for the "powder coat everything" option.
Surprised to learn that you charge the same for paint or powder. Impressive. I would have thought the extra prep time and cost of running the oven would have some financial impact for the business.
:bigthumb:
Actually, there's less prep if you start with a decent part to begin with. I'm taking the piece right out of the blasting cabinet when the part is as clean as it's going to get, blowing it off and hanging it for powder coating, that's it. Keep in mind, you're blasting weather powder coating or painting, that's where the differences start. If you're one of the "better" shops, you'll be using a catalyzed epoxy/paint and your solvents as opposed to going right to powder. Your material expense alone, unless using a cheap single stage jingle can like some "so called" experts do :deadhorse:, offsets the powder, oven and the ancillaries you'll need to powder coat. Also, the inherent durability and corrosion protection if offers has a ton of "added value" as far as I'm concerned. The other benefit afforded to me, I can literally have a part blasted, coated and ready for assembly in 60 minutes of less depending on the part. Unless you're using a single stage jingle can, you'll be waiting on drying time.
As a shop, I'm kicking myself in the a$$ for not doing this sooner on all my bare metal or painted parts. I'll be pulling apart my black AAR I finished last year to get it ready for Carlisle 2020 where everyone can check it out as a comparison to Eric's purple convertible :barf: done elsewhere that will be coming here for body/paint work along with a laundry list of other things that need addressed and fixed after Carlisle. That way, the average enthusiast can educate themselves and know the difference between a "true" quality restoration and someone selling snake oil for the same monies. :pullinghair: Come see me, I love talking cars and sharing information and secrets.
In reference to the gun, I'm using the Redline EZ 100 for now, I'm still using the small oven and Eastwood gun on the smaller parts. The Redline is a much better gun for getting into all the nooks and crannies where you may experience the "Faraday Cage Effect" like inside and around the k-member. If you're going to only do the parts that fit into a conventional oven, the Eastwood gun may be all you need. I'll be doing tie rod ends this morning, along with a couple other parts, and that's exactly what I will be using.
If anyone wants to talk shop, call me anytime, love to chat with you if I can help you out.
Quote from: 1 Wild R/T on December 05, 2019, 07:00:21 PM
Quote from: HEMICUDA on December 03, 2019, 10:45:59 PM
I have used "real" cosmoline on my personal cars in the past, these lower control arms are done with a Krylon Battery Protector spray. The color is super close and the way it runs when sprayed is very close to cosmoline except that it dries to the touch so you won't have to worry about everything sticking to it.
If you notice, the dip line is parallel to the floor in relation to how they were hung. The dip lines were at different heights back in the day based on how much cosmoline was left in the tank, these were done based on the rust line.
I love the fact that the Kylon Battery protector spray is still the best option for quasi Cosmoline.. I first used it back in 95... I'd tried the Eastwood Cosmoline, I'd tried the cosmoline product being sold by Roger Gibson's shop... I didn't like either.. I tried a number of other products & techniques... I was looking for a better option & remembered using Kyrlon on battery & the color was pretty close, especially if you lay it on heavy... It would develop runs like true cosmoline... I gave it a shot & was pleased with the results...
While showing my car I got a few compliments about the LCA's then around 2003 Troy Bray was doing his T/A & posted on Moparts about his testing for a substitute of cosmoline... I posted about the Kylon, he tried it & agreed it was the best thing he'd tried.... Sixteen years later Mike still gives it the thumbs up... Cool!
I have a friend that has a 30 gallon drum of real cosmoline I dipped my lower control arms in Randy, I refuse to use it anymore. You're absolutely correct about the Krylon, I always wanted to be absolutely correct and used cosmoline, no more.
Quote from: Shane Kelley on December 05, 2019, 06:05:17 AM
Quote from: HEMICUDA on December 03, 2019, 11:26:07 PM
Quote from: JS29 on December 02, 2019, 08:50:44 AM
This doesn't pertain to this thread, but i have better results using painters plastic over paper as well. It keeps the over spray clung to it, resulting in cleaner jobs. :1place:
Since you posted it, I will give you my :alan2cents:
What you're saying is counter intuitive, you're correct, it's the static build up in the plastic and car body the develops from spraying that attracts the over spay for sure. However, any professional painter will tell you that's a bad thing, every tiny piece of anything floating in the air as well as over spray, will not only be attracted to the plastic, will also be attracted to your top coats. It's no different than rubbing an air balloon on you hair and stick it on the wall, not good.
We also use a bunch of plastic when bagging up car bodies for paint, we don't have an overspray problem with our down draft heated paint booth. As mentioned earlier in this thread, grounding the body to prevent static build up is very important for clean top coats. :1place:
I prefer liquid spray mask. Hands down provides the cleanest paint jobs. It grabs and holds any dust and you don't have to worry about any over spray creeping under the plastic or paper. It's come a long way it the last few years. Use to need special equipment and gun to apply but now you can spray it right out of a paint gun. De solves with water from a hose.
I've used it on collision jobs where you're panel painting, not sure where to use it on a restoration? We are bagging the body when it's in primer to grey/green epoxy the bottom, re-bagging the bottom to paint the rest of the shell.
I don't know if I'm passing the test here or not. MIKE :D :dunno:
The first picture is the upper control arm right out of the blasting cabinet. The second is the arm after a 1/2 second dip in my super deluded black oxide, hot water wash and blow dry. The third picture is what the part looks like after the 0000 steel wool polish.
The last picture is straight out of the "easy bake" oven.
Quote from: pink aar on December 06, 2019, 05:20:25 AM
I don't know if I'm passing the test here or not. MIKE :D :dunno:
Looks great Jay and you'll never have to worry about your parts rusting with one of the toughest coating available. :perfect10: I have to ask, is it as easy as I said it would be?
I might have you re-do some of my suspension parts before the Cuda leaves your shop...that stuff looks fantastic !!!
Wow! That looks incredible Mike! This thread is just getting better and better. I appreciate you letting all of us know how your techniques and answering questions. I was begining to think powdercoating parts that are raw metal was not possible. You make it look easy buddy. Thank you :worship:
Quote from: 76orangewagon on December 06, 2019, 11:20:15 AM
I might have you re-do some of my suspension parts before the Cuda leaves your shop...that stuff looks fantastic !!!
You mean the "Seymour" is coming off? :haha: :haha: :rofl:
You want something like this? 8) Blast what ever you want done and drag it over here. It will cost you breakfast down the street while your parts are cooking. :bigmoney:
Quote from: 6Pack70 on December 06, 2019, 02:11:54 PM
Wow! That looks incredible Mike! This thread is just getting better and better. I appreciate you letting all of us know how your techniques and answering questions. I was begining to think powdercoating parts that are raw metal was not possible. You make it look easy buddy. Thank you :worship:
You have got to be kidding me brother, I owe you big time Eddy, thx for the "correct" calipers for the pink AAR we're restoring. :worship: :worship: I'm still down one driver side for the sweet blue on blue 4-speed AAR in the shop. ;)
Quote from: 6Pack70 on December 06, 2019, 02:11:54 PM
Wow! That looks incredible Mike! This thread is just getting better and better. I appreciate you letting all of us know how your techniques and answering questions. I was begining to think powdercoating parts that are raw metal was not possible. You make it look easy buddy. Thank you :worship:
I second that, those parts look amazing. Could this be the new normal. No plating, No painting.
Thanks for sharing with us Mike.
Your Friend Bob
Quote from: VCODE on December 07, 2019, 04:10:26 PM
Quote from: 6Pack70 on December 06, 2019, 02:11:54 PM
Wow! That looks incredible Mike! This thread is just getting better and better. I appreciate you letting all of us know how your techniques and answering questions. I was beginning to think powder coating parts that are raw metal was not possible. You make it look easy buddy. Thank you :worship:
I second that, those parts look amazing. Could this be the new normal. No plating, No painting.
Thanks for sharing with us Mike.
Your Friend Bob
I have that million dollar green L72 oil filter coming out to you today Bobby, it couldn't be going on a more deserving car.
I've been horsing around with duplicating the suede finish on the steering column and dash frame in powder. Very lightly textured as it should be, yea I'm pretty happy with it.
Man that looks awesome Mike! Here's my crush can after rattle can texture coat, and mixing Trim Black paint and shooting it. Between my prep work, paint time, cleanup and waiting for it to dry.... I would say powdercoating wins. I'll be trying my hand at that process very soon😃👍👍 Thanks for sharing with us..
Here is the rest of the steering column powder coated in the "suede" finish as well as other parts for the pink AAR. I tried several suede finishes and settled on the "Harley Texture Black" I purchased from "The Powder Coat Store". Much of my powder has been coming from that company.
Originally, the 70 column lockout tube was spot welded together with the lower lever after the lever was plated in gold dye chromate. Bright zinc is always applied as a base before the gold die chromate. The last couple inches of the zinc on the tube will be removed as well as the pits before the bare metal treatment and satin cleared same as all the other bare metal parts in the previous pictures.
I felt I owed all the guys that was following, this will be my last past on this thread.
WOW, that looks fantastic! :clapping: Pretty much spot on to the original suede finish.
Awesome finish. The time taken to research and experiment to achieve these results is well worth it and the results can't be faked.
That is the way to go! durable and looks original. :perfect10:
I know you mentioned you don't need more business, but I bet you would do well if you did an exchange mail order parts powder coating business. They look very well done. :bravo:
Wow Mike...This thread is fantastic !! Thanks for not only sharing your research on the technique but also the materials list to achieve what's been presented...You've definitely raised the bar for the suspension parts and I agree you'd do well if you offered this service for anyone looking to take the components for their project to the next level...
I hope you reconsider that being your last post on the subject I know I enjoy seeing the latest breakthrough in the resto community and I'm sure other members here do as well...It sure has given me some incentive on trying it out...Have one on me buddy you've earned it !! :cheers:
Mike - the interior parts look amazing!
Please keep adding to this thread as you learn new and improved techniques and/or materials.
Mike all of your parts look really good! I also, when possible like powder coating parts on my restorations. It is a great time saver and is super durable! Keep in mind that if your parts are heavily pitted after blasting, powder coating will looks terrible. The only way of properly fixing heavy pits is the old fashion way, with fillers and paint. :alan2cents: If pits are minor then they can be buffed out with a flapper disc and powder coated.
Quote from: 750-h2 on December 15, 2019, 07:01:12 AM
Mike all of your parts look really good! I also, when possible like powder coating parts on my restorations. It is a great time saver and is super durable! Keep in mind that if your parts are heavily pitted after blasting, powder coating will looks terrible. The only way of properly fixing heavy pits is the old fashion way, with fillers and paint. :alan2cents: If pits are minor then they can be buffed out with a flapper disc and powder coated.
Question, why would anyone at this level use a heavily pitted part? :stop: Since you do so much powder coating, I would love to see your process's and powders you're using, I'm always willing to learn. :canada:
The guy I used to powder my parts told me Ican use the all metal fillers to fill in pits as the powder process won't harm that. I tried it and achived goor results.
Quote from: HEMICUDA on December 16, 2019, 01:51:29 AM
Quote from: 750-h2 on December 15, 2019, 07:01:12 AM
Mike all of your parts look really good! I also, when possible like powder coating parts on my restorations. It is a great time saver and is super durable! Keep in mind that if your parts are heavily pitted after blasting, powder coating will looks terrible. The only way of properly fixing heavy pits is the old fashion way, with fillers and paint. :alan2cents: If pits are minor then they can be buffed out with a flapper disc and powder coated.
Question, why would anyone at this level use a heavily pitted part? :stop: Since you do so much powder coating, I would love to see your process's and powders you're using, I'm always willing to learn. :canada:
For years I have been bringing my parts to Keith owner of "Redline Powder Coating" located in my home town. I mostly restore rare antique snowmobiles so subsequently parts are often heavily pitted. Unlike Mopar undercarriage parts, rust free replacements parts are almost impossible to find. Keith has a large walk in oven which is needed for the larger parts. Here is a pic of part of my collection.
Cool collection!
They look so much better sitting in a garage than stuck in the snow!
Quote from: gygeneral on December 16, 2019, 05:58:04 AM
The guy I used to powder my parts told me Ican use the all metal fillers to fill in pits as the powder process won't harm that. I tried it and achived goor results.
See, there is a way to fill pits in parts for powder coating. Yea, I've been working with high temp fillers also, however, that's not going to be any help with bare metal parts. That may be a good place to use cast grey powder like Shane has done on his third member. Even with that, paint has no place in the discussion of durability, paint blows compared to powder coating.
I'm unfamiliar. Is a metal filler lead? brass?
Is it ground up pieces of metal with a resin to hold it?
Quote from: cuda hunter on December 16, 2019, 09:08:27 AM
I'm unfamiliar. Is a metal filler lead? brass?
Is it ground up pieces of metal with a resin to hold it?
Here's you go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy5CcdVY1oY
Filler then powder coated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWQd87GdzhI
thanks for the links.
Explained that quick and easy.
up to 1000 degrees! That's pretty cool!
Ok, so I lied, I've received PM's to post more, here are the dash pieces for the pink AAR in the shop. I've been asked if I would do work for customers, yes I will.
That looks perfect to me.
It would be hard to beat that look. Impressive. :veryexcited:
I was going to do the pit work on the last 2" on the column "lock out" tube that sticks out the bottom to bare metal, the customer Barry was in yesterday and said "I like it" so I left it plated. I cleaned up his 70 "only" satin chrome key bezel. The "lever" for the column lock out was plated before it was spot welded to the tube.
Looks good, I like the texture! :bradsthumb:
All interior garnish molding is powder coated with yet another different type of black powder. All different sheens, textures and colors have been figured out, the "process" has been implemented and will be used on all future restorations.
Absolutely beautiful Mike! Keep showing us your work buddy. I never knew results like that could be achieved without mixing paint.
I'm stunned by your results Mike; I'm also banging my head that I just rebuilt my whole front suspension and used RPM!
I'm definitely going to go the powder coat route when I restore my 58 Fargo Sweptside pickup; lots of bare metal suspension parts there I can powder coat.
I'm assuming there are lots of "powder coating 101" videos on YouTube for the guy that's never done it before?
Quote from: fireguyfire on December 20, 2019, 10:07:36 AM
I'm stunned by your results Mike; I'm also banging my head that I just rebuilt my whole front suspension and used RPM!
I'm definitely going to go the powder coat route when I restore my 58 Fargo Sweptside pickup; lots of bare metal suspension parts there I can powder coat.
I'm assuming there are lots of "powder coating 101" videos on YouTube for the guy that's never done it before?
Yes, they're plenty of videos for beginners. What I can say, the most important things are your bare metal prep process, the powders sheen/textures and the proper equipment. Since we do so many cars, it made sense for me to invest in a better gun and an oven large enough for any part on the car. I added a 16" extension on to my TP blasting cabinet to accommodate any part on a car like dash frames and rear end housings, there isn't a single component part on a car I can't blast in house. We control 100% of the process "in house" and I refuse to compromise quality for anyone or any reason. Yep, my way or the highway.
So, now that this thread has come to the end, one question, "can you really tell these parts are powder coated and not painted"? Didn't think so, I was told early in this thread by an expert that it would be easy to tell. :drunk:
Mike
Excellent results!
Perhaps I missed it, but do you list what brand powders and colors you use for each of these parts?
Quote from: larry4406 on December 20, 2019, 11:00:07 AM
Mike
Excellent results!
Perhaps I missed it, but do you list what brand powders and colors you use for each of these parts?
I'll be happy to share that with you Larry, you have my number, give me a call.
Mike do you intend on doing the orange on the lid of the AAR air cleaner?
I know the thread is supposed to be over, but I'd like to add one question; is there any type of powder that can mimic a wrinkle finish on double snorkel air cleaners?
I highly doubt it but you never know until you ask!
Quote from: Mymcodebee on December 21, 2019, 03:41:14 AM
Mike do you intend on doing the orange on the lid of the AAR air cleaner?
I don't think so. I am in the process of working with my supplier to color match the blue interior in powder on this AAR we're working on.
Quote from: fireguyfire on December 21, 2019, 05:10:25 AM
I know the thread is supposed to be over, but I'd like to add one question; is there any type of powder that can mimic a wrinkle finish on double snorkel air cleaners?
I highly doubt it but you never know until you ask!
Yes, there is "wrinkle finish" powder available that I've had done on my 70 & 71 dual snorkel air cleaners. All the 68-69 "unsilenced" air cleaners we reproduced were powder coated, I recommend that before wrinkle paint hands down.
Black wrinkle powder coat.
:lookatthat: WOW, that's impressive Shane. :clapping:
Fantastic!
The powder "wrinkle" finish is really nice for sure, I'll done several and I'll never paint another one, nice job Shane.
:drooling: I love that! Is this powder readily available?
Yup: I've never had a problem getting it done. The Harley guys use it too so just about any Powder Coater has it.
Some how I feel this belongs here.....
:iagree: :rofl:
Had to fix the link because that's a good one. :haha:
:iagree:
:clapping:
:haha: :rofl: :haha:
Best post ever Wild!
Mike powder coated a set of bucket seat frames for us, and they turned out perfect! He even weld repaired some minor cracks. Turn around time literally measured in hours!!
I saw his suede finish powder coating first-hand, and it is perfect.
I highly recommend his services if you are looking for high quality, reasonably priced powder coating.
Thanks Mike! :handshake: