cataclysm80 and Burdar...please feel free to jump in....
I have stock set up as far as I know regarding wiring. I will attach some pics this weekend.
I have a 58 AMP at 6000 rpm's alternator
I have a 18 AMP 2100 cfm fan running off my starter relay via this relay:
http://www.jegs.com/i/Derale/259/16759/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710651302&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15769068431&CATCI=aud-179164184951:pla-210019240631&gclid=Cj0KEQiAzZHEBRD0ivi9_pDzgYMBEiQAtvxt-G0nkDoFGeTL9zbu2DSYojY-35QS_7Y3iLZIjzY1Yv4aAnB38P8HAQ
I was thinking of putting the battery in the trunk one day, but for now its in the engine bay.
I am concerned about a fire under the dash, see this thread...
http://forum.e-bodies.org/index.php?topic=400.0
I am starting to think the best solution to avoid a fire and have a working gauge long term is to convert the ammeter gauge over to a voltage gauge. "Redline gauges" charges $240 for the conversion
I am hopefully taking the car apart soon. Redline suggested unhooking the Ammeter's black and red wires, and putting a bolt through them and to shrink wrap them to take the ammeter out of the equation. HOWEVER I am assuming this will have to be done later as the dash is still in and it's a tight fit up there as far as I understand. Once the dash is out I will probably pay the $240 for the voltage conversion.
Redline said I am asking for trouble like cataclysm80 has warned me. I have no idea of the condition of the wires and connections and I don't have a fusible link set up.
As for a fusible link:
So I did some research and found a mopar guy on ebay (sniff-out-parts ) who was selling a number of electronic mopar items. He sells 12 gauge wire that he suggested running from the alternator to the positive side of the battery. He said it will cost me $50.00. Thinking that seems expensive? Plus he also said it DOESNT come with a fuse, but he said I could keep my wire running to the dash from the alternator and run this extra 12 gauge wire to "take away" some of the load heading to the dash. Does this sound right? He said they are "custom made" for him.
I looked and got lost quickly regarding where my wires were heading from the alternator. Attached is a picture. The thick red wire is heading to the Starter and there is NO fuse. There is a black green, black, and blue wire.
My main question, sorry for taking forever to ask it...To reduce the risk of a fire I need to add a fusible link and how do I do that? Redline said like cataclysm80, add a fusible link. I don't understand how to do this. Do I unplug anything from the dash? Do I change anything I have set up on the alternator? Where should I have fuses? Redline said I will keep the fusible link even after I convert the ammeter gauge to a voltage gauge.
Any suggestions where to buy the 8 or 10 or 12 gauge wire with a "maxi fuse" if I go that route?
Please don't feel the need to give me a super detailed response as I truly value your time. Maybe just post a thread.
I am trying to get mostly everything "right" before I tear the car down for paint.
Is there any good posts/threads about adding a fuseable link?
I found this: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=104798.0
And this: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=79843.0 CP suggested 8 gauge
Lastly cataclysm80 says AutoInstruments.com sells a solid state voltage limiter which will shut off if it fails, saving your expensive gauges. I consider this to be a good upgrade / investment. Their website said "We have found the original voltage limiters to be very reliable although if they fail, they usually send 12v to the 6v gauges and they all burn up.
The replacement limiters are now made in China and we've had many failures with them.
We now carry a solid state voltage limiter that is extremely reliable and if it fails, it shuts itself off, saving the gauges. Price for the solid state limiter is $55."
Seems like a good investment? Sorry for the long post. Just trying to get this right.
Neil
You guys are over my head with all this stuff. Sorry I can't help on this one. Just a stock boy, I am.
Quote from: nsmall on February 02, 2017, 10:23:51 PM
Lastly cataclysm80 says AutoInstruments.com sells a solid state voltage limiter which will shut off if it fails, saving your expensive gauges. I consider this to be a good upgrade / investment. Their website said "We have found the original voltage limiters to be very reliable although if they fail, they usually send 12v to the 6v gauges and they all burn up.
The replacement limiters are now made in China and we've had many failures with them.
We now carry a solid state voltage limiter that is extremely reliable and if it fails, it shuts itself off, saving the gauges. Price for the solid state limiter is $55."
Seems like a good investment? Sorry for the long post. Just trying to get this right.
Yes, I think the solid state voltage limiter that doesn't fry your gauges if it fails is a good idea.
I wonder what kind of voltage limiter Redline Gauges uses.
Quote from: nsmall on February 02, 2017, 10:23:51 PM
I am starting to think the best solution to avoid a fire and have a working gauge long term is to convert the ammeter gauge over to a voltage gauge. "Redline gauges" charges $240 for the conversion
I am also fond of having working gauges in my dash.
An ammeter requires that all of the power for the vehicle runs through it, which is more hazardous than a voltmeter.
Many restored cars run a factory ammeter and new reproduction wiring without problems. They've checked things over to make sure everything is in good working order.
The problems arise when you start adding additional electrical loads to your vehicle, that the factory setup was not designed to handle. (electric fans, high powered stereos, etc.)
If the gauge restoration company says that the gauge can't handle the current your electric fan draws, I have to trust that they know what they're talking about.
Quote from: nsmall on February 02, 2017, 10:23:51 PM
I am hopefully taking the car apart soon. Redline suggested unhooking the Ammeter's black and red wires, and putting a bolt through them and to shrink wrap them to take the ammeter out of the equation. HOWEVER I am assuming this will have to be done later as the dash is still in and it's a tight fit up there as far as I understand. Once the dash is out I will probably pay the $240 for the voltage conversion.
How many miles have you put on the car with the current setup?
How soon do you plan to remove the gauges?
If it's been working fine for a while, and you're really going to take it apart soon, you might be OK until you take it apart. It's a little risky, but it's been working so far right? In the meantime, you should avoid giving or receiving jump starts because that can move a lot of current and might overload your system.
I think it's easiest to get to the ammeter wires when you're removing the gauge cluster.
Either way, make sure to disconnect the battery cable before working on the ammeter so that you aren't working with live wires.
Quote from: nsmall on February 02, 2017, 10:23:51 PM
I have no idea of the condition of the wires and connections and I don't have a fusible link set up.
The car originally had a fusible link. It's labeled in this picture. Yours may not be the same color of wire as shown in the picture, but it's a short piece of special wire that goes between the starter relay and the big red wire shown.
That red wire goes through the firewall bulkhead to the ammeter.
Normally, all the electricity for the car (except the starter motor) goes through this fusible link, and any charge that the alternator sends back to the battery also goes through it.
This fusible link is important to have. Do you still have this fusible link installed on your car?
Later, you'll run a wire from your alternator to this same post on your starter relay. That wire also needs to be protected by a fusible link because it's taking over some of the duties of the original factory fusible link.
Hopefully now that you've seen a fusible link, you'll have a better idea of what they are.
Quote from: nsmall on February 02, 2017, 10:23:51 PM
As for a fusible link:
So I did some research and found a mopar guy on ebay (sniff-out-parts ) who was selling a number of electronic mopar items. He sells 12 gauge wire that he suggested running from the alternator to the positive side of the battery. He said it will cost me $50.00. Thinking that seems expensive? Plus he also said it DOESNT come with a fuse, but he said I could keep my wire running to the dash from the alternator and run this extra 12 gauge wire to "take away" some of the load heading to the dash. Does this sound right? He said they are "custom made" for him.
I think I've purchased from that eBay seller before. He sells a lot of cruise control parts. The transaction went smoothly, no complaints.
I don't think I'd pay $50 for a piece of unfused 12 gauge wire though.
12 gauge wire should be readily available on spools at your local auto parts store for pretty cheap. Look for it next time you're in there, just so that you're familiar with what the store has. (also look for fusible link, it should be located nearby)
Hooking up an additional wire between the alternator and the positive side of the batter is practically the same as hooking up an additional wire between the alternator and the starter relay. This is because the starter relay is connected to the positive side of the battery.
The starter relay is a very convenient place to connect a wire.
His suggestion is very similar ours, but he didn't fuse the wire or take the next step to disconnect the alternator wire which goes to the ammeter.
Electricity takes the path of least resistance.
If your new wire is bigger around and/or shorter than the original factory 12 gauge wire, then it will have less resistance and carry more than half of the current.
This would be helpful. It bypasses the ammeter (with some of the current), which is what we're trying to do.
Because some of the current is not going through the ammeter, the ammeter is no longer accurate, and basically useless. It's still hooked up, but it's not working properly. Since it isn't doing anything useful, it would be safer to disconnect the ammeter. Otherwise, if your new wire gets disconnected somehow, all current is sent through the ammeter again, which is the existing risky situation we're trying to avoid.
Also, the new wire from the alternator to the starter relay (or positive side of the battery) should really be fused. Otherwise, if the wire became damaged and shorted out, you'd have about 800 amps of battery current coming through it, sparking like an arc welder as the insulation melted off.
In other words, his suggestion was helpful, but not ideal. It's more along the lines of a quick fix than a permanent repair.
On my Challenger, I didn't change anything. All the wiring is new and the AMP gauge was in perfect condition. The card board insulation on the terminals looked new. I have no extra accessories that would tax the stock system so I left it stock.
On my Dart, I am upgrading the system. I took the AMP gauge completely out and put an oil pressure gauge in its place. I bolted the two leads together, coated them with liquid tape AND wrapped them in electrical tape. I bought a headlight relay kit to take load off of the bulkhead and the headlight switch. I will be buying a convertible top relay kit to take load off of the top switch and the bulkhead. Lastly, I'll be installing a jumper wire from the alternator output stud to the starter relay stud. All of these modifications will take most of the load off of the problematic bulkhead connector.
My plan is to add a fusible link to the stock charge wire on the alternator and leave it in place. This way the interior will get fed by two wires instead of one AND both wires will be protected. There is less chance of having an issue with the jumper wire but it probably wouldn't hurt to run a link at both ends of it as well. :alan2cents:
Quote from: nsmall on February 02, 2017, 10:23:51 PM
I looked and got lost quickly regarding where my wires were heading from the alternator. Attached is a picture. The thick red wire is heading to the Starter and there is NO fuse. There is a black green, black, and blue wire.
Thanks for the picture, that helps.
The thick red wire is the one you're looking for. :)
Double check where that wire goes!
It's supposed to go through the firewall bulkhead disconnect. (It goes to a splice of several wires under the dash, one of which goes to the other side of the ammeter).
Its current would normally pass through the ammeter (indicating charge) and go down the other ammeter wire, through the fusible link at the starter relay, and into the battery to charge the battery. In this way, it uses the fusible link at the starter relay, which I pictured above.
If the wire is actually going to the starter as you suggested, then it would still function at charging the battery, but is a little dangerous being unfused, and your ammeter would not show a charge since this wire is bypassing it.
(on the plus side, this would mean that none of the charge required to power your electric fan is going through the ammeter, which is what we originally set out to accomplish)
Quote from: Burdar on February 03, 2017, 07:25:14 AM
Lastly, I'll be installing a jumper wire from the alternator output stud to the starter relay stud.
It's good to see you in the group Burdar. I'm glad you joined.
That's a solid plan you have, and it sounds like a really nice Dart!
Do you plan to use a fusible link between the alternator and starter relay?
Quote from: nsmall on February 02, 2017, 10:23:51 PM
Any suggestions where to buy the 8 or 10 or 12 gauge wire with a "maxi fuse" if I go that route?
The first place I'd look would be the wiring department of the local auto parts store.
Quote from: Cuda Cody on February 02, 2017, 10:54:29 PM
You guys are over my head with all this stuff. Sorry I can't help on this one. Just a stock boy, I am.
I'm with you on this one . . . electrical system is not my strong suit. :dunno: I have been considering the headlight relay kit though . . .
QuoteDo you plan to use a fusible link between the alternator and starter relay?
Probably two of them. If you have an issue at the relay, the alternator side will still be feeding the wire. If there is an issue with the alternator end, the relay will still be powering the wire. With a link at both ends, they "should" both burn up and drop power to the entire jumper wire. I don't think there is a down side as long as you can make it look clean and uncluttered.
There's lots of ways to wire it depending on how far from stock you are getting. One thing I do with a non original car when the fusible link is missing is add a circuit breaker in it's place. You can run a large wire to the fuseblock all right, just make sure it has a circuit breaker near it's source and it is well protected from chafing etc.
The voltage limiter upgrade is a very good idea.
If you are changing wiring from factory do your best to engineer it to be fail safe and not be able to short out in any way and don't feed more current through factory parts than what the factory designed them for is my advice.
Sheldon
Quote from: Burdar on February 03, 2017, 09:30:50 AM
QuoteDo you plan to use a fusible link between the alternator and starter relay?
Probably two of them. If you have an issue at the relay, the alternator side will still be feeding the wire. If there is an issue with the alternator end, the relay will still be powering the wire. With a link at both ends, they "should" both burn up and drop power to the entire jumper wire. I don't think there is a down side as long as you can make it look clean and uncluttered.
:iagree:
Although the VR can give you problems based on where they are made, I have only had to replace one. I even had the old one really spike the voltage upwards to 17V+ and I still didn't fry my gauges. Obviously you have to pay attention but the SS limiter would be a good idea.
That's one of the biggest problems with upgrading the alternator and adding a secondary, direct charge wire...You need the fusible links on BOTH the original set-up and the new charge wire...If the heavier,new charge wire fries the link, the smaller gauge wire now bears all the load and needs to have the protection also...
50 bucks is too much for a length of wire and some connectors do it yourself it'll cost less than half that... If you're doing it upgrade to at least 10ga wire.... :alan2cents:
If you want to keep the original look of the fusible link{they're blue with a "fusible link" plastic flag molded to the wire} you can buy them here...
http://www.evanswiring.com/ (http://www.evanswiring.com/)
Quote from: Burdar on February 03, 2017, 09:30:50 AM
With a link at both ends, they "should" both burn up and drop power to the entire jumper wire.
It's heat from resistance that burns the fusible links (or blows fuses).
At higher ambient temperatures, a fusible link will burn quicker than it would at a lower ambient temperature.
The alternator end of the wire, being closer to the engine, probably has a higher temp and should burn before the other end.
I'm not sure how severe this time difference will be, maybe you won't notice it.
Worst case scenario, the alternator end burns first, and if the wire shorts against something, that will burn the other end and your OK.
If you have the fusible link at the starter relay and you have an upstream problem with the charge wire grounding...The fusible link is'nt going to "see" the load{from the alternator} initially and remain intact so it's useless in that scenario...The fusible link at the alternator would help only in that situation..
If it's a charging amp related heat issue a fusible link at the starter relay would be enough...Once it blows the charge wire should'nt have any issues and cool off quickly....
If I add the secondary charge wire I either A} Rewrap the original harness to include the new,heavy gauge wire or B}Create it's own wrapped harness and run it with the wiring...Either way unless there's a catastrophic failure where something else severs/grounds the wire it shouldn't have the ability to ground itself...But in that case yes a double fusible link would be better...
Take a look at this link. It goes a long way in explaining the issues you are referring to. http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml
:iagree: Yep, that looks good.
That's some good information. Thanks for sharing the link
@ebodycopper (http://forum.e-bodies.org/index.php?action=profile;u=138) :clapping:
Quote from: ebodycopper on February 07, 2017, 07:48:03 PM
Take a look at this link. It goes a long way in explaining the issues you are referring to. http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml
Sorry, not able to insert quotes, don't know how. But thanks for all the advice.
I will avoid any sort of jump starting...Thanks! I will disconnect the battery before touching any wires under the dash...Thanks
Not sure what Redline sells for a voltage limiter, but I will buy a new USA one as $50 is no big deal at this point.
I have driven the car 1500 miles, hope to take it apart this spring. No issues. The Redlines guy just makes me paranoid, but I'm thinking I can wait as I have ZERO issues and that fan ran a lot this past summer as I live in the desert.
It seems like I have a ground issue as my gauges and stereo sometimes work and sometimes I have to turn the engine off and turn it back on to get them to work. Once they are on, they work fine. Maybe this is an ignition issue? Ignition wires are loose possibly?
I SEE NO FUSEABLE LINK. SEE ATTACHED PHOTOS...
This red wire that is supposed to have a fuseable link appears to attach to my firewall. Can I install a fuseable link on the existing wire?
I am only half way through reading your helpful posts on page one. give me time to keep reading and responding. Thanks
I doubled checked and grabbed the red wire that connects from my firewall to the starter relay...there is no fuseable link folks.
I plan to keep the entire original wire harness as its in decent shape.
I also just confirmed the big red wire from the alternator goes straight to the starter and there is NO FUSE.
Do disconnect this wire? Should I take this wire out of my car completely?
Besides unhooking my red wire described above which doesn't sound like its running to my ammeter gauge I am under the impression I need to do the following...
I need to buy some 10 gauge wire that has a fuseable link (or do I buy the fuseable link and install them myself) and have ONE fuse near the alternator, run this wire most likely around the rear of the engine and to the starter relay with a second fuseable link just before the starter relay?
Where do I buy these fuseable links?
It was also suggested I wrap the wire. Any idea where to buy some nice professional looking wire covers vs black tape. Not sure how to explain what I want, but something to wrap the wire besides tape.
Attached is a photo and like I said, the thick red wire in the photo goes straight to the starter.
What else am I missing? If that red wire from my alternator is not running to the dash I am under the impression my ammeter gauge has no power running to it?
Thanks folks
I would guess that to be a ground. Clean the ground connection on the motor, radiator support and battery. :alan2cents:
Quote from: nsmall on February 07, 2017, 11:27:52 PM
It seems like I have a ground issue as my gauges and stereo sometimes work and sometimes I have to turn the engine off and turn it back on to get them to work. Once they are on, they work fine. Maybe this is an ignition issue? Ignition wires are loose possibly?
Quote from: Cuda Cody on February 09, 2017, 05:42:00 PM
I would guess that to be a ground. Clean the ground connection on the motor, radiator support and battery. :alan2cents:
Quote from: nsmall on February 07, 2017, 11:27:52 PM
It seems like I have a ground issue as my gauges and stereo sometimes work and sometimes I have to turn the engine off and turn it back on to get them to work. Once they are on, they work fine. Maybe this is an ignition issue? Ignition wires are loose possibly?
Agreed...Clean the connections Cody has suggested....IF that doesn't do the trick then we'll move on to the next step for that problem..
OK a little clarification please...When you say "the red wire is connected from the alt to the starter" do you mean the starter relay ??? If the answer is yes then you've already got your charge wire bypassing the bulkhead connections{bypassing the amp gauge with the main charge current} and there would be no need to buy any additional 10gauge wire...
In any case there's no fusible link you should install at least one...I've posted a link in my previous response to get a reproduction piece that looks like the original...IF originality isn't a concern you could add your own using a smaller gauge wire{14 gauge if the charge wire is 10 gauge} as others have suggested..
The way the factory designed the system is this...
The + battery cable has two wires...one thick and one thin. The large heavy wire goes directly from the battery to the starter. There was no wire from the alternator to the starter. The smaller + cable wire goes from the battery to the starter relay. From the starter relay, the wire goes through a fusible link before it goes into the bulkhead connector. That wire powers EVERYTHING on the car except for the starter itself which is powered by the large + cable.
QuoteSo I did some reading and from what I understand I need an add a fusible link in between the firewall and that starter relay red wire that does not currently have a fusible link. Correct?
Yes. However, you should already have one there. The factory put one there. If you really don't have a link between the starter relay and the bulkhead connector, someone removed it.
QuoteI also need to add a fuseable link to the thick red wire running from the alternator to the starter. Correct?
No. There shouldn't be any wire that runs from the alternator to the starter. The large starter wire should run from the starter, right to the battery.
QuoteIn an effort to be extra safe...I run a fusible link on both ends of a 10 gauge wire from the alternator to the starter relay?
That's what I would do. I would also add one to the factory wire that's connected to the alternator stud.
Is your battery still in the engine compartment or is it in the trunk?
The wire that's running from the alternator to the starter...is that wire powering the starter?
If your battery is still in the engine compartment, you can buy a replacement + battery cable from Chrysler still. You can get them for around $40.
Quote from: Burdar on February 10, 2017, 06:11:56 AM
QuoteSo I did some reading and from what I understand I need an add a fusible link in between the firewall and that starter relay red wire that does not currently have a fusible link. Correct?
Yes. However, you should already have one there. The factory put one there. If you really don't have a link between the starter relay and the bulkhead connector, someone removed it.
He provided a pic of his starter relay earlier in this thread.
It confirms that he does not have a fusible link installed.
Someone has removed it and hooked the wire straight to the starter relay without the fusible link.
A new fusible link should be installed.
Quote from: nsmall on February 09, 2017, 09:44:03 PM
You said..."OK a little clarification please...When you say "the red wire is connected from the alt to the starter" do you mean the starter relay ???"
Answer: NO
That big red wire running from the alternator runs straight to the starter (no fuseable link in that wire)
Do I need to take more photos?
The photos you have provided so far are helpful.
If you can get a picture of where these wires connect to the starter, that might also help us.
Quote from: nsmall on February 09, 2017, 05:31:19 PM
Do I need to keep the red wire from my alternator to my starter hooked up as I'm assuming that's how my starter gets power?
Quote from: Burdar on February 10, 2017, 06:20:11 AM
The wire that's running from the alternator to the starter...is that wire powering the starter?
The alternator can't power the starter because the alternator only provides power when the engine is running.
(you wouldn't need a starter when your engine is running :D )
There must be a cable from the battery to the starter.
Quote from: Burdar on February 10, 2017, 06:11:56 AM
The way the factory designed the system is this...
The + battery cable has two wires...one thick and one thin. The large heavy wire goes directly from the battery to the starter. The smaller + cable wire goes from the battery to the starter relay.
nsmall, does this accurately describe how your + battery cable is hooked up?
Maybe a picture of your + battery cable would also be helpful.
Here is a brief recap of what's going on so that everyone is on the same page.
The car has an aftermarket aluminum radiator with electric cooling fans which pull more power than the factory ammeter can handle.
The solution is to bypass the ammeter, making sure the circuit is fused for safety.
Quote from: nsmall on February 09, 2017, 05:31:19 PM
I reread what everyone said and I'm thinking that having my red main wire go from the alternator to the starter is not a stock set up its supposed to go to the dash, is that correct?
Correct, On a stock set up, the wire goes to the dash.
You don't want a stock setup though because we need to bypass the ammeter since your car has been modified.
Quote from: nsmall on February 09, 2017, 05:31:19 PM
Do I need to keep the red wire from my alternator to my starter hooked up
Quote from: Burdar on February 10, 2017, 06:11:56 AM
There shouldn't be any wire that runs from the alternator to the starter.
Quote from: screamindriver on February 09, 2017, 06:11:47 PM
When you say "the red wire is connected from the alt to the starter" do you mean the starter relay ??? If the answer is yes then you've already got your charge wire bypassing the bulkhead connections{bypassing the amp gauge with the main charge current} and there would be no need to buy any additional 10gauge wire...
The point is to get the alternator current to the battery in order to charge the battery.
The + battery cable should be connected to the starter AND to the starter relay.
Connecting the alternator wire to EITHER the starter or the starter relay should function the same.
You could also run the alternator wire straight to the + battery post, and it would function the same.
Regardless of where the wire is hooked up, it should be fused for safety.
We've been suggesting that the alternator wire be connected to the starter relay because that is the easiest thing to do.
Though the alternator wire would work fine connected to the starter, I think it will be difficult to install a fusible link down there, and it's also closer to the engine heat.
I'd suggest moving the wire to the starter relay.
Quote from: nsmall on February 10, 2017, 12:31:54 AM
So I did some reading and from what I understand I need an add a fusible link in between the firewall and that starter relay red wire that does not currently have a fusible link. Correct?
Correct. On this wire, the best place for a fusible link is on the end of the wire by the starter relay.
Quote from: nsmall on February 10, 2017, 12:31:54 AM
I also need to add a fuseable link to the thick red wire running from the alternator to the starter. Correct?
Correct. A fusible link on both ends of this wire would be even better.
You can move this wire from the starter to the starter relay if it makes things easier. In either location, the wire should be connected to the same post that the + battery cable is connected to.
Quote from: nsmall on February 10, 2017, 12:31:54 AM
I don't care about stock appearing so I'm under the impression I can add these fusible links to the existing wire. Is that correct? I have a friend who can help me with this as he's really smart but I need to explain to him what I want. Just to confirm what exact size of a fuse should I buy?
Yes, you can add fusible links to existing wires. That's the way it's done.
A wire size is 2 gauge sizes.
For example, wires are available in 8 gauge, 10 gauge, 12 gauge, 14 gauge, 16 gauge, etc.
There is no 9 gauge wire or 13 gauge wire, no odd numbers.
The exact size of fusible link needed is 2 wire sizes smaller than the wire being protected.
That's the same as 4 gauge sizes.
For example: if you were protecting a 10 gauge wire, you would use 14 gauge fusible link.
OR if you were protecting an 8 gauge wire, you would use 12 gauge fusible link.
Quote from: Burdar on February 10, 2017, 06:11:56 AM
The way the factory designed the system is this...
The + battery cable has two wires...one thick and one thin. The large heavy wire goes directly from the battery to the starter. There was no wire from the alternator to the starter. The smaller + cable wire goes from the battery to the starter relay. From the starter relay, the wire goes through a fusible link before it goes into the bulkhead connector. That wire powers EVERYTHING on the car except for the starter itself which is powered by the large + cable.
QuoteSo I did some reading and from what I understand I need an add a fusible link in between the firewall and that starter relay red wire that does not currently have a fusible link. Correct?
Yes. However, you should already have one there. The factory put one there. If you really don't have a link between the starter relay and the bulkhead connector, someone removed it.
QuoteI also need to add a fuseable link to the thick red wire running from the alternator to the starter. Correct?
No. There shouldn't be any wire that runs from the alternator to the starter. The large starter wire should run from the starter, right to the battery.
QuoteIn an effort to be extra safe...I run a fusible link on both ends of a 10 gauge wire from the alternator to the starter relay?
That's what I would do. I would also add one to the factory wire that's connected to the alternator stud.
:iagree:
You can also make your own fusable link, it's really not that hard. The smaller guage wire will fail first and drop the connection - that's all there is to it.
QuoteThe alternator can't power the starter because the alternator only provides power when the engine is running
Not correct. The stud on the back of the alternator has power all the time. The small wire from the + battery cable sends power through the bulkhead twice and ends up at the alternator. If his battery is in the trunk, someone could have run the + cable up to the alternator and then back to the starter. Doesn't make sense but it could happen.
Quote from: Burdar on February 10, 2017, 11:32:51 AM
QuoteThe alternator can't power the starter because the alternator only provides power when the engine is running
Not correct. The stud on the back of the alternator has power all the time. The small wire from the + battery cable sends power through the bulkhead twice and ends up at the alternator. If his battery is in the trunk, someone could have run the + cable up to the alternator and then back to the starter. Doesn't make sense but it could happen.
OK, I think that makes sense.
I couldn't imagine powering the starter with the little wires that go through the ammeter, but if the + battery cable were hooked straight to the alternator it would work. :bigthumb:
I guess we need to know for sure how his + battery cable is hooked up.
I think he had said in another thread that his battery was still under the hood, but that doesn't mean the + cable is hooked up normally.
This car's had some stuff done to it.
Quote from: Burdar on February 10, 2017, 11:32:51 AM
QuoteThe alternator can't power the starter because the alternator only provides power when the engine is running
Not correct. The stud on the back of the alternator has power all the time. The small wire from the + battery cable sends power through the bulkhead twice and ends up at the alternator. If his battery is in the trunk, someone could have run the + cable up to the alternator and then back to the starter. Doesn't make sense but it could happen.
:iagree:
I zapped myself several times screwing around with the alternator. Not advised!!!
Hey nsmall
Why not post up some pics of what we are talking about!!!
B
I am posting a few pics of how I did it and you guys can look it over and see if it is done correctly and if not I am certainly open to any advice. Maybe with my weak little drawing you can get him going in the right direction.
Mike
Quote from: Burdar on Today at 06:11:56 AM
The way the factory designed the system is this...
The + battery cable has two wires...one thick and one thin. The large heavy wire goes directly from the battery to the starter. The smaller + cable wire goes from the battery to the starter relay.
This is what I have. HOWEVER the red wire going from the +battery post to the starter relay is NOT Thin, its thick and it has no fuse on it.
There are multiple wires that leave the alternator and go to a bulkhead near the firewall. As for the main thick red wire in the following pictures it goes straight from the alternator to the battery. Like I've said many times it has NO fusible link so I'm assuming I need to figure out a way to run this alternator wire to the starter relay instead of to the actual starter and run it with a fusible link and FYI... I don't know what size the gauge is.
If I need a fuse or to reroute the small thin wires that leave the alternator and go to the bulkhead I need a lot of advice on tha. I am still confused if it is the main red wire from the alternator or the small wires from the alternator or the red wire from the starter relay that runs to the ammeter (the whole point of this thread is am trying to avoid that).
Sorry I am so slow on understanding guys. We almost got this. Thanks
Here's the red wire that leaves a starter relay and has no fusible link that goes to the bulkhead on the firewall.
I'm under the impression this is going to be something I need to buy that is original with a fuse set up in it as it has to plug into the bulkhead or can I modify it? If so, any guess of the size of the gauge so I know what type of fuse to buy?
Thansk
There is small wire coming off the positive terminal of the battery and runs inside the interior and does NOTHING. I think this was going to be hooked up to the heater control panel or something???
I don't know but I'm just going to pull this wire off
Lastly, here's a photo of the electric fan hooked to the starter relay and a couple of other photos. Let me know if you need any more photos to help you help me figure out what I specifically I need to do/ buy.
THANKS
Nice job with the pics. That helps a lot. :)
Nice pics...Now you're getting somewhere.. :bigthumb: .As others have stated that huge red wire going from the alt to the starter needs removed or rerouted to the starter solenoid{to charge the battery}...Yes,it works using the starter as the merge point but that's not the best place for that to happen as already pointed out..
You already know you need to add a fusible link to the red wire that's heading through the bulkhead connector....Here's my question after looking at the pics...That set of wires{going to and from the amp gauge} appear to be heavier than the factory gauge wiring{?} Can you see IN the bulkhead connections ??? Tug on them gently.....Are those wires run straight through those holes{as in NO connectors} ?? Since someone has rewired a lot of your system I'm wondering if that's the case..
I didnt tag ya all on the following posts because I hopefully lured you in on my last post. Okay, that sounded creepy.
As for the black wire that runs from the alternator to the bulkhead, it also DOES NOT have a fusible link. See photo #1. It also looks like some high schooler was working on it. It has a black tape on it.
This black wire RUNS STRAIGHT THRU THE BULKHEAD. It DOES NOT plug in. Screamindriver...you got a good eye
So for now I will just leave this black wire alone as I will be tearing the car down soon so until then I CANT do the trick of putting the two ammeter gauge wires together with a bolt to bypass the ammeter gauge and wrap them well so the don't ground.
Just curios...Can I disconnect the black wire NOW or will this cause problems? What I am trying to ask is Do I need to wait until I do the trick with the two ammeter wires before removing the black wire that runs from the alternator? See attached photo #3 as it looks like the answer is I need to keep this black wire in for now.
Another side note. I just bought a new three speed OEM wiper motor. Does it plug into the empty upper left corner of picture #2?
THANKS
At this point I am going to ORiellys (our local parts store) and I am going to see if they sell a fusible link for the red wire that runs from the starter relay to bulkhead.
I will also see what they have for a fusible link on each end for a 10 gauge wire for the alternator to starter relay set-up I am looking to do. I will also be removing the red wire that runs from the alternator to the starter.
As for the super thick red wire that runs from the battery to the starter relay, I am assuming this needs no fusible link? See attached #1
As for a better ground, do I need this attached factory ground set strap? See attached #2
These guys (Evanswiring.com) sell a fusible link for $15. Not sure what the set up is all about, I can call them before going to local parts store
You can make your fusible link too. like this you have the good length, rooting....
http://whiteproducts.com/fusible_link_wire.shtml
QuoteI am going to see if they sell a fusible link for the red wire that runs from the starter relay to bulkhead.
Yes, you need one there. :bigthumb:
QuoteI will also see what they have for a fusible link on each end for a 10 gauge wire for the alternator to starter relay set-up I am looking to do. I will also be removing the red wire that runs from the alternator to the starter.
:bigthumb: Yep, good there too.
QuoteAs for the super thick red wire that runs from the battery to the starter relay, I am assuming this needs no fusible link?
Correct. The factory didn't use anything special there. Very low risk of something happening in that short run.
If I were you, I'd invest the $40+/- in a factory style battery cable. It will clean up the wiring a little and get rid of that extra connection on the battery. You don't have to do that now though. Take the car apart, get it painted and put the new cable on during re-assembly. :alan2cents:
QuoteAs for a better ground, do I need this attached factory ground set strap?
The factory negative cable also used two wires. A large wire ran to the front of the drivers side head. A small wire ran to the radiator support. That was it...until sometime in 73 when they added one from the back of the passengers side head to the firewall. I think it would be a good idea to add this extra ground. You don't need anything special though. Just remove that alternator to starter wire, shorten it and use it for your ground wire. :alan2cents:
QuoteAs for the black wire that runs from the alternator to the bulkhead, it also DOES NOT have a fusible link.
Correct, the factory never had a fusible link on that wire. If there was a problem with that wire, the fusible link between the starter relay and bulkhead was designed to burn. Now that you have a jumper wire from the alt to the relay, you need to protect that wire. I'd add a fusible link at the end of that black wire right at the alternator.
QuoteThis black wire RUNS STRAIGHT THRU THE BULKHEAD. It DOES NOT plug in.
The factory had a connector there. Someone has modified the wiring and run it straight through. This isn't a bad thing. The bulkhead can be a cause of a lot of electrical headaches. You can just leave it like that...one less thing to worry about. It will make disconnecting the bulkhead harder though.
It looks like you have a handle on it. :cheers:
As a general rule the fusible link is 2 sizes smaller than the primary wire...It's tough to guess what gauge you have there but it appears to be bigger than the factory gauge...It looks to be 10 gauge{so you'd want a14 gauge fusible link}...The factory did'nt use that heavy gauge originally {I'm thinking 12 gauge ? which would get you a 16 gauge fusible link}
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Where do I buy the factory style battery cables? Roseville?
Yes, you can buy it there. They are always a good choice, however you can find it at your local Chrysler dealer as well. Then you wouldn't have to pay for shipping. It might take a few days for them to get it in though.
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where is the passenger side of the firewall? As in, where exactly would I ground my alt wire once I remove it from the starter? Thanks
I used to have a picture of the late 73-74 ground location on the firewall. I can't find it now. I believe it was between the voltage regulator and the ballast. It's just another small hole in the firewall. You don't have to connect it there though. If you want it hidden, you can run it down the back side of the engine and bolt it to the inside of the frame rail under the car. It's up to you.
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What size is this black wire so I know what size of fuse to buy?
I'm not sure about that one.