Fusible Link and voltage limiter

[nsmall]

   cataclysm80 and Burdar...please feel free to jump in....

I have stock set up as far as I know regarding wiring.  I will attach some pics this weekend.

I have a 58 AMP at 6000 rpm's alternator

I have a 18 AMP 2100 cfm fan running  off my starter relay via this relay:
http://www.jegs.com/i/Derale/259/16759/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710651302&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15769068431&CATCI=aud-179164184951:pla-210019240631&gclid=Cj0KEQiAzZHEBRD0ivi9_pDzgYMBEiQAtvxt-G0nkDoFGeTL9zbu2DSYojY-35QS_7Y3iLZIjzY1Yv4aAnB38P8HAQ
I was thinking of putting the battery in the trunk one day, but for now its in the engine bay.

I am concerned about a fire under the dash, see this thread...
http://forum.e-bodies.org/index.php?topic=400.0

I am starting to think the best solution to avoid a fire and have a working gauge long term is to convert the ammeter gauge over to a voltage gauge.  "Redline gauges" charges $240 for the conversion

I am hopefully taking the car apart soon.  Redline suggested unhooking the Ammeter's black and red wires, and  putting a bolt through them and to shrink wrap them to take the ammeter out of the equation.  HOWEVER I am assuming this will have to be done later as the dash is still in and it's a tight fit up there as far as I understand.  Once the dash is out I will probably pay the $240 for the voltage conversion.

Redline said I am asking for trouble like cataclysm80 has warned me.  I have no idea of the condition of the wires and connections and I don't have a fusible link set up.

As for a fusible link: 
So I did some research and found a mopar guy on ebay (sniff-out-parts ) who was selling a number of electronic mopar items.  He sells 12 gauge wire that he suggested running from the alternator to the positive side of the battery.  He said it will cost me $50.00.  Thinking that seems expensive?  Plus he also said it DOESNT come with a fuse, but he said I could keep my wire running to the dash from the alternator and run this extra 12 gauge wire to "take away" some of the load heading to the dash.  Does this sound right?  He said they are "custom made" for him.

I looked and got lost quickly regarding where my wires were heading from the alternator.  Attached is a picture.  The thick red wire is heading to the Starter and there is NO fuse.  There is a black green, black, and blue wire.

My main question, sorry for taking forever to ask it...To reduce the risk of a fire I need to add a fusible link and how do I do that?  Redline said like cataclysm80, add a fusible link.  I don't understand how to do this. Do I unplug anything from the dash? Do I change anything I have set up on the alternator?  Where should I have fuses?  Redline said I will keep the fusible link even after I convert the ammeter gauge to a voltage gauge.
Any suggestions where to buy the 8 or 10 or 12 gauge wire with a "maxi fuse" if I go that route?

Please don't feel the need to give me a super detailed response as I truly value your time.  Maybe just post a thread.
I am trying to get mostly everything "right" before I tear the car down for paint.

Is there any good posts/threads about adding a fuseable link? 

I found this: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=104798.0

And this: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=79843.0 CP suggested 8 gauge


Lastly cataclysm80 says AutoInstruments.com sells a solid state voltage limiter which will shut off if it fails, saving your expensive gauges.  I consider this to be a good upgrade / investment.  Their website said "We have found the original voltage limiters to be very reliable although if they fail, they usually send 12v to the 6v gauges and they all burn up.
The replacement limiters are now made in China and we've had many failures with them.
We now carry a solid state voltage limiter that is extremely reliable and if it fails, it shuts itself off, saving the gauges. Price for the solid state limiter is $55."

Seems like a good investment?  Sorry for the long post.  Just trying to get this right.

Neil

[Cuda Cody]

You guys are over my head with all this stuff.  Sorry I can't help on this one.  Just a stock boy, I am.

[cataclysm80]

   Lastly cataclysm80 says AutoInstruments.com sells a solid state voltage limiter which will shut off if it fails, saving your expensive gauges.  I consider this to be a good upgrade / investment.  Their website said "We have found the original voltage limiters to be very reliable although if they fail, they usually send 12v to the 6v gauges and they all burn up.
The replacement limiters are now made in China and we've had many failures with them.
We now carry a solid state voltage limiter that is extremely reliable and if it fails, it shuts itself off, saving the gauges. Price for the solid state limiter is $55."

Seems like a good investment?  Sorry for the long post.  Just trying to get this right.

Yes, I think the solid state voltage limiter that doesn't fry your gauges if it fails is a good idea.

I wonder what kind of voltage limiter Redline Gauges uses.

[cataclysm80]

I am starting to think the best solution to avoid a fire and have a working gauge long term is to convert the ammeter gauge over to a voltage gauge.  "Redline gauges" charges $240 for the conversion

I am also fond of having working gauges in my dash.
An ammeter requires that all of the power for the vehicle runs through it, which is more hazardous than a voltmeter.
Many restored cars run a factory ammeter and new reproduction wiring without problems.  They've checked things over to make sure everything is in good working order.
The problems arise when you start adding additional electrical loads to your vehicle, that the factory setup was not designed to handle.  (electric fans, high powered stereos, etc.)
If the gauge restoration company says that the gauge can't handle the current your electric fan draws, I have to trust that they know what they're talking about.

I am hopefully taking the car apart soon.  Redline suggested unhooking the Ammeter's black and red wires, and  putting a bolt through them and to shrink wrap them to take the ammeter out of the equation.  HOWEVER I am assuming this will have to be done later as the dash is still in and it's a tight fit up there as far as I understand.  Once the dash is out I will probably pay the $240 for the voltage conversion.

How many miles have you put on the car with the current setup?
How soon do you plan to remove the gauges?

If it's been working fine for a while, and you're really going to take it apart soon, you might be OK until you take it apart.  It's a little risky, but it's been working so far right?  In the meantime, you should avoid giving or receiving jump starts because that can move a lot of current and might overload your system. 

I think it's easiest to get to the ammeter wires when you're removing the gauge cluster.
Either way, make sure to disconnect the battery cable before working on the ammeter so that you aren't working with live wires.

[cataclysm80]

  I have no idea of the condition of the wires and connections and I don't have a fusible link set up.

The car originally had a fusible link.  It's labeled in this picture.  Yours may not be the same color of wire as shown in the picture, but it's a short piece of special wire that goes between the starter relay and the big red wire shown.
That red wire goes through the firewall bulkhead to the ammeter.
Normally, all the electricity for the car (except the starter motor) goes through this fusible link, and any charge that the alternator sends back to the battery also goes through it.
This fusible link is important to have.   Do you still have this fusible link installed on your car?

Later, you'll run a wire from your alternator to this same post on your starter relay.  That wire also needs to be protected by a fusible link because it's taking over some of the duties of the original factory fusible link.

Hopefully now that you've seen a fusible link, you'll have a better idea of what they are.

[cataclysm80]

As for a fusible link: 
So I did some research and found a mopar guy on ebay (sniff-out-parts ) who was selling a number of electronic mopar items.  He sells 12 gauge wire that he suggested running from the alternator to the positive side of the battery.  He said it will cost me $50.00.  Thinking that seems expensive?  Plus he also said it DOESNT come with a fuse, but he said I could keep my wire running to the dash from the alternator and run this extra 12 gauge wire to "take away" some of the load heading to the dash.  Does this sound right?  He said they are "custom made" for him.

I think I've purchased from that eBay seller before.  He sells a lot of cruise control parts.  The transaction went smoothly, no complaints.
I don't think I'd pay $50 for a piece of unfused 12 gauge wire though.
12 gauge wire should be readily available on spools at your local auto parts store for pretty cheap.  Look for it next time you're in there, just so that you're familiar with what the store has.  (also look for fusible link, it should be located nearby)

Hooking up an additional wire between the alternator and the positive side of the batter is practically the same as hooking up an additional wire between the alternator and the starter relay.   This is because the starter relay is connected to the positive side of the battery.
The starter relay is a very convenient place to connect a wire.
His suggestion is very similar ours, but he didn't fuse the wire or take the next step to disconnect the alternator wire which goes to the ammeter.
Electricity takes the path of least resistance. 
If your new wire is bigger around and/or shorter than the original factory 12 gauge wire, then it will have less resistance and carry more than half of the current.
This would be helpful.  It bypasses the ammeter (with some of the current), which is what we're trying to do.
Because some of the current is not going through the ammeter, the ammeter is no longer accurate, and basically useless.  It's still hooked up, but it's not working properly.  Since it isn't doing anything useful, it would be safer to disconnect the ammeter.  Otherwise, if your new wire gets disconnected somehow, all current is sent through the ammeter again, which is the existing risky situation we're trying to avoid.
Also, the new wire from the alternator to the starter relay (or positive side of the battery) should really be fused.  Otherwise, if the wire became damaged and shorted out, you'd have about 800 amps of battery current coming through it, sparking like an arc welder as the insulation melted off.
In other words, his suggestion was helpful, but not ideal.  It's more along the lines of a quick fix than a permanent repair.

[Burdar]

On my Challenger, I didn't change anything.  All the wiring is new and the AMP gauge was in perfect condition.  The card board insulation on the terminals looked new.  I have no extra accessories that would tax the stock system so I left it stock. 

On my Dart, I am upgrading the system.  I took the AMP gauge completely out and put an oil pressure gauge in its place.  I bolted the two leads together, coated them with liquid tape AND wrapped them in electrical tape.  I bought a headlight relay kit to take load off of the bulkhead and the headlight switch.  I will be buying a convertible top relay kit to take load off of the top switch and the bulkhead.  Lastly, I'll be installing a jumper wire from the alternator output stud to the starter relay stud.  All of these modifications will take most of the load off of the problematic bulkhead connector.

My plan is to add a fusible link to the stock charge wire on the alternator and leave it in place.  This way the interior will get fed by two wires instead of one AND both wires will be protected.  There is less chance of having an issue with the jumper wire but it probably wouldn't hurt to run a link at both ends of it as well.     

[cataclysm80]

I looked and got lost quickly regarding where my wires were heading from the alternator.  Attached is a picture.  The thick red wire is heading to the Starter and there is NO fuse.  There is a black green, black, and blue wire.

Thanks for the picture, that helps.
The thick red wire is the one you're looking for.   

Double check where that wire goes!
It's supposed to go through the firewall bulkhead disconnect.  (It goes to a splice of several wires under the dash, one of which goes to the other side of the ammeter).
Its current would normally pass through the ammeter (indicating charge) and go down the other ammeter wire, through the fusible link at the starter relay, and into the battery to charge the battery.  In this way, it uses the fusible link at the starter relay, which I pictured above.

If the wire is actually going to the starter as you suggested, then it would still function at charging the battery, but is a little dangerous being unfused, and your ammeter would not show a charge since this wire is bypassing it.
(on the plus side, this would mean that none of the charge required to power your electric fan is going through the ammeter, which is what we originally set out to accomplish)

[cataclysm80]

Lastly, I'll be installing a jumper wire from the alternator output stud to the starter relay stud.   

It's good to see you in the group Burdar.  I'm glad you joined.
That's a solid plan you have, and it sounds like a really nice Dart!
Do you plan to use a fusible link between the alternator and starter relay?

[cataclysm80]

Any suggestions where to buy the 8 or 10 or 12 gauge wire with a "maxi fuse" if I go that route?

The first place I'd look would be the wiring department of the local auto parts store.

[Spikedog08]

You guys are over my head with all this stuff.  Sorry I can't help on this one.  Just a stock boy, I am.

I'm with you on this one . . . electrical system is not my strong suit.      I have been considering the headlight relay kit though . . .

[Burdar]

Do you plan to use a fusible link between the alternator and starter relay?

Probably two of them.  If you have an issue at the relay, the alternator side will still be feeding the wire.  If there is an issue with the alternator end, the relay will still be powering the wire.  With a link at both ends, they "should" both burn up and drop power to the entire jumper wire.  I don't think there is a down side as long as you can make it look clean and uncluttered.

[RUNCHARGER]

There's lots of ways to wire it depending on how far from stock you are getting. One thing I do with a non original car when the fusible link is missing is add a circuit breaker in it's place. You can run a large wire to the fuseblock all right, just make sure it has a circuit breaker near it's source and it is well protected from chafing etc.
The voltage limiter upgrade is a very good idea.
If you are changing wiring from factory do your best to engineer it to be fail safe and not be able to short out in any way and don't feed more current through factory parts than what the factory designed them for is my advice.

Sheldon

[HP_Cuda]

Do you plan to use a fusible link between the alternator and starter relay?

Probably two of them.  If you have an issue at the relay, the alternator side will still be feeding the wire.  If there is an issue with the alternator end, the relay will still be powering the wire.  With a link at both ends, they "should" both burn up and drop power to the entire jumper wire.  I don't think there is a down side as long as you can make it look clean and uncluttered.

Although the VR can give you problems based on where they are made, I have only had to replace one. I even had the old one really spike the voltage upwards to 17V+ and I still didn't fry my gauges. Obviously you have to pay attention but the SS limiter would be a good idea.

[screamindriver]

That's one of the biggest problems with upgrading the alternator and adding a secondary, direct charge wire...You need the fusible links on BOTH the original set-up and the new charge wire...If the heavier,new charge wire fries the link, the smaller gauge wire now bears all the load and needs to have the protection also...

    50 bucks is too much for a length of wire and some connectors do it yourself it'll cost less than half that... If you're doing it upgrade to at least 10ga wire....

    If you want to keep the original look of the fusible link{they're blue with a "fusible link" plastic flag molded to the wire}   you can buy them here...http://www.evanswiring.com/