Wanted: ECS Challenger Trunk Mat

[TWS]

WANTED:  Reproduction Challenger trunk mat manufactured by ECS.  Have an ECS Cuda trunk mat for potential trade.

[R/T's 4 R/P]

Is ECS out of them?

[JH27N0B]

They've been out of stock for awhile.
I talked to Tom from ECS at MCACN last month and he said their material supplier won't supply the material anymore.
Unless they change their mind or ECS finds an alternate material supplier, we are back to only having the ones made out of picnic table cover material we've been complaining about for years. 

[FE5CUDA]

Mike Ross at BEA bought every single Cuda & Challenger mat they had left.  He was told by Cindy Walden, with all the issues making the first ones, they have no interest making them again.

[C_B5]

Mike Ross at BEA bought every single Cuda & Challenger mat they had left.  He was told by Cindy Walden, with all the issues making the first ones, they have no interest making them again.

FYI - The ECS mats that Mike Ross bought have all been SOLD.

Know because I inquired with him a few months back as I too am searching for a challenger ECS trunk mat.

[JH27N0B]

A couple years ago, DMT was talking about working on making decent trunk mats, I wonder whatever happened with that?

[anlauto]

I wonder if the material supply was an issue of low volume, maybe we need a company that is willing to buy 10X the amount ECS would buy ? A larger company like REM or even DMT ?

[FE5CUDA]

I wonder if the material supply was an issue of low volume, maybe we need a company that is willing to buy 10X the amount ECS would buy ? A larger company like REM or even DMT ?

Had nothing to do with volume "in your opinion" and saying "large company like REM or even DMT" implying they are a larger company is also false.  It was a manufacturing and printing issue that killed the trunk mats.

[anlauto]

I wonder if the material supply was an issue of low volume, maybe we need a company that is willing to buy 10X the amount ECS would buy ? A larger company like REM or even DMT ?

Had nothing to do with volume "in your opinion" and saying "large company like REM or even DMT" implying they are a larger company is also false.  It was a manufacturing and printing issue that killed the trunk mats.

I was asking (wondering if) it had anything to do with volume.

....and I'm pretty sure REM pumps out way more volume in the restoration business than ECS does in their restoration branch, can't speak for DMT, but I'm pretty sure they are getting up there as well with all their products available at large retailers like Classic Industries and YearOne...

My point being that larger companies may be able to place larger purchase orders for the material making process, making more lucrative for potential suppliers...

.....and as for the PM you just sent me "Why don't you quit posting your stupid ass opinions about companies when you have no clue what you're talking about."  really has no place on this website...

This is a general discussion website, the purpose is to gather together and share opinions and ideas....as I will continue to do...

[JS29]

What was sent in a P-M is not placed on this or any other website. That is until you put it on there. every one on the forum dose not need to be dragged into the drama, fight your own battles.

[anlauto]

Exactly, thank you 

[JH27N0B]

Trolling people with negative pms is a no class move.
I'm an engineer in manufacturing for 30+ years so I'd like to think I know something about the subject. I'd be interested in learning why it's been so difficult to make a decent trunk mat.  Most of my experience has been in metals like castings, machining and stamping, but I did work for an automotive seals company for a bit.  Molds for seals are expensive but mats are probably cut out of sheets of material by relatively simple dies something like cutting cookies out of dough.
Storing the bulky dies for a bunch of different mats would be the hardest chore I would think.
I've seen the discussion of mats before and it's been said the original material, Burtex is no longer available, some even have said it had asbestos in it.  So I can see why a 100% perfect repro is impossible, but there are many kinds of plastics and rubbers, so something of similar texture I'd think could be found and available in ~1/8" thick sheets that could have correct patterns printed on it rather than using the picnic table cover type material companies like REM use, for a much better product.
So if someone with expertise in this type of product and these processes knows I'm all ears?

[anlauto]

That's why I mentioned REM, I know Dave W. worked closely with them to reproduce the rear speaker trays, so with their buying power and the fact they they already supply trunk mats, it would be great if they would be interested in ECS's material supplier to supply a premium quality mat, but from what I understand they would rather sell 1000's of cheap mats then 100's of expensive ones.. 

@69BFan Richard, what's your take on the current ECS trunk mat situation ?

[69BFan]

The trunk mat situation is basically not much different than any of the other reproduction parts that we all deal with.  As having been involved with bringing product to the market for close to 30 years, the unforeseen intangibles makes bringing any product to the market even more difficult at the current time.  There are multiple variables which will impact anyone in bringing a product to the current market place. 

For the trunk mat scenario, I have dealt with both ACC and REM on a variety of products.  Both ACC and REM dwarfs many of the reproduction businesses out there.  So if anyone had the resources whether it be the financial, product knowledge, tooling, warehousing, market share, etc, they both have those areas covered.

Both ACC and REM are able to reproduce a quality part.  As in any business that looks to stay financially strong, they all have to determine what will be the best final product to maximize profit based on projected sales.  Dave of ECS brought many of the products to the market place that he was personally interested in due to his passion for his interest in the particular part for his own car.  The bread and butter side of ECS is the VIN program and it allowed him to support his passion for bringing the different parts to the hobby.  But if your an ACC or a REM with hundreds of employees with thousands of accounts, your business focus is somewhat different even though they all have passion for the hobby.

I have dealt with ACC in getting the 63 to 65 Mopar B-Body trunk mats into production in the past two years.  Similarly to the E-Body scenario, the 62 B-Body trunk mat is a one year only print style.  All of the 62 to 65 B-Body mats are heat molded and ACC is the only supplier that can do these pieces as it is basically like the molding of a carpet set.  Yet ACC does not offer the one year only color style to make it 100% correct.  In working with them on these projects, I was told that they would never consider doing this one year only color style due to the cost involved in creating the "print head" to duplicate the colored pattern.

So in my informal talks with the ECS team, I recall that they told me that the tooling alone to do the print head to print the material was in the $30,000 to $35,000 range.  The clicker or steel rule die to cut the mats from the material is relatively inexpensive in the overall scheme of things.  Then you have to factor in sourcing someone who will stamp the desired material with the desired texture and characteristics and your cost just continues to climb.  With a limited production run, the cost climbs even quicker.  So I can understand why a vendor is hesitant to offer his services to provide more material if it will take away from his normal production runs.

For the sake of numbers, lets say that you decide to run 1000 mats.  If you factor in the material printing cost say at $30 per mat, then you have to factor in actual material cost, just say $12.00 per mat, cutting the mat with tooling cost will be say $3.00 per mat.  Then you have a 7 to 13% license agreement with Chrysler to print the part number on the part, so lets say another $15 to tack onto the final product.  At that rate, you have a minimum of $60 in each mat before you sell the first one.  Factor in other cost in the development stages, shipping cost, boxing and other hidden fees and I could see that you could be quickly approaching $70 per piece.

Both ACC and REM offers a heavy rubber style trunk mat similar to the ECS style material.  The REM mats actually has a texture to them on the back side as did the OEMs.  Depending upon the discount level to the vendors, the vendors are paying from say $35 to $45 per mat and selling them from $55 to $60.  Many of the REM vendors will sell the picnic style material trunk mats that are in the wholesale range of $25 to $30 depending your level because they take up so little space for inventory or shipping cost.

Just like any product, cost plays a major part in the decision making process to the buying public.  Pretty much like the 80/20 rule, if I have ten buyers, eight out of the ten will purchase the cheaper alternative knowing that it is not quite as correct as the more premium priced piece. 

I have no ideal on how many mats that ECS decided to run.  Lets just go back to our 1000 number.  From my experience, the initial release of new product will bring a rush of sales and we will say that the first 334 flies off of the shelf in the first couple of weeks.  The next 333 will may drag out over the next couple of months or years, depending upon the product and the last 333 may take years to sell off, even if you are able to sell all of them.  So if I was looking to bring this product back to the market place, what customers will be lining up to purchase one of the mats.  The guys who had to buy one, no matter the cost has already bought one.  Those guys on the fence has already purchased one most probably if they were really interested in one of them.  So is it realistic that I could hit a grand slam and financially come out ahead on this move?  Possibly, but I would not want to be in that situation with the current economy and manufacturing unknowns.

Hopes that this sheds some light on the subject from my only perspective.  I am not sure of the exact numbers, but I do know that it is a rather complex process seeing that it was not done in house.  Just be thankful that there are guys out there willing to put the money and time into making these things happen.

Just as a side note, I spoke to ACC two weeks ago concerning offering a "ship-flat" carpet option as a purchasing option.  I was told that it was too "disruptive" to the manufacturing process and thus it was no longer available.

[anlauto]

As always Richard, thank you