**BEWARE** COMPLETE AAR Cuda numbers, title etc for sale

[6Pack70]

That would suck trying to untie that knot and figure out who owns the original car.  That could have been made up too.  There isn't a Mopar guy or girl on this forum that hasn't heard a Mopar story... that turned out to be untrue.   Many of the tall tales that I hear today come from people making stuff up in an effort to keep buyers away from cars they know about.  Lol

[cuda dad]

I really do think there should be a place where Mopars that are re-born from real cars that were ruined can be accepted.  Especially with all the reproduction metal available to bring these cars back.  Geez.... before you know it, everyone that puts there cowl and core support numbers back on their replacement AMD panels because of rot or an accident will be considered trying to fool somebody or scam someone.   50 years now people.  Its just metal.... relax.  If you know what you're looking at, you'll know if someone is trying to screw you. Ask questions, seek professional asssistance if you're not sure.  Changed and tampered with numbers and codes are more important to me.  Fake buildsheets and tags... that is fraud.  New metal to replace wasted stuff but numbers 100% legit..... ok in my book.   

I agree with 6pack70 100%. At least this AAR exists, it can be rebuilt.

The seller clearly states that he only has those key items, the rest was crushed years ago.  There is nothing to save, the car is long gone.  If you want to create a clone and enjoy it, just do that!  I suppose whoever buys this and makes a 318 car into an AAR will surely disclose the fact that it's really a 318 car with AAR numbers.  It would be fraud, in my opinion.

[worthywads]

Another Hypothetical

A nice 318 Barracuda is built as a AAR tribute with all correct mods including TA block, heads etc, necessary to pass as an AAR except it retains the 318 VIN info.  Everyone knows it's still the 318 car and it is priced accordingly.

Another actual AAR gets thrashed hard and early on the Engine is blown and any number of other things and now it's still solid but engine, tranny and rear end are gone.  It is also restored with correct block heads etc.  It's worth more than the 318 car right?

Now take the above 318 car cut out the original VIN stampings on cowl and support and replace with $7000 e-bay stampings along with VIN and data plates.  My understanding is a few here wouldn't call transferring the numbers as fraud, but it would be if they just stamped new ones themselves.  Why should this newly transformed 318 car be worth any more after transfer of these real pieces from a no longer existing car.  Why would anyone that knows that the numbers were transferred be willing to pay more today than yesterday with 318 VIN?

I see no possible reason that anyone would pay $7000 for these items without some intent at fraud.

[6Pack70]

I really do think there should be a place where Mopars that are re-born from real cars that were ruined can be accepted.  Especially with all the reproduction metal available to bring these cars back.  Geez.... before you know it, everyone that puts there cowl and core support numbers back on their replacement AMD panels because of rot or an accident will be considered trying to fool somebody or scam someone.   50 years now people.  Its just metal.... relax.  If you know what you're looking at, you'll know if someone is trying to screw you. Ask questions, seek professional asssistance if you're not sure.  Changed and tampered with numbers and codes are more important to me.  Fake buildsheets and tags... that is fraud.  New metal to replace wasted stuff but numbers 100% legit..... ok in my book.   

I agree with 6pack70 100%. At least this AAR exists, it can be rebuilt.

The seller clearly states that he only has those key items, the rest was crushed years ago.  There is nothing to save, the car is long gone.  If you want to create a clone and enjoy it, just do that!  I suppose whoever buys this and makes a 318 car into an AAR will surely disclose the fact that it's really a 318 car with AAR numbers.  It would be fraud, in my opinion.

So, is it fraud in your opinion that a guy can build a car out of those items or fraud in your opinion because the builder might  choose not to disclose how it was built?  This topic has been on more forums for so many years now, anyone who looks at spending money on a musclecar these days better do their homework and maybe hook up with an expert to verify what you're looking at.  The days are gone where you can just take people's word thay their car hasn't had a ton of metal replaced.   I'm not saying that everyone selling a Cuda should be considered a crook until proven otherwise. There are really good guys in this hobby that are very honest too.  Not everything is built with the intent to decieve.  Some guys build cars to really accurately represent.... and they will yell you how they did it and why. 

[6bblgt]

Some years back Galen Govier hinted in a magazine column he was writing at the time that the hypothetical situation I brought up, had happened with a deceased hemi car and there might be 2 out there now miraculously risen from the grave.

it's not hypothetical - it's real, but the car is a LEMANS raced GT40
there are now 2 cars with the same VIN, one in Europe & one in the US with some original components in each car - both claiming the same LEMANS history

& similar happenings more recently with a hemi'cuda, as rumor has it one built around a copy of the broadcast sheet & sold out of country to avoid "ISSUES"

also, a few long gone known cars have been resurrected with 0% of the original car existing in the current 6 or 7-figure offering 

[cuda dad]

So, is it fraud in your opinion that a guy can build a car out of those items or fraud in your opinion because the builder might  choose not to disclose how it was built?  This topic has been on more forums for so many years now, anyone who looks at spending money on a musclecar these days better do their homework and maybe hook up with an expert to verify what you're looking at.  The days are gone where you can just take people's word thay their car hasn't had a ton of metal replaced.   I'm not saying that everyone selling a Cuda should be considered a crook until proven otherwise. There are really good guys in this hobby that are very honest too.  Not everything is built with the intent to deceive.  Some guys build cars to really accurately represent.... and they will yell you how they did it and why.

To answer your question, I would consider it fraud to apply the numbers to a different car, period.
Let's say you have a nice BH27 car.  There are quite a few of them nicely restored and some with different powertrains yet still retaining the BH27G VIN for instance.  You bought it because you liked it and can tell that it is represented as what it really is.  On the other hand lets say that the previous owner obtained numbers from a destroyed Hemi Car and apply them to this car during the restoration, and then titled it as such.  Does that seem legit?  To begin calling this BH27G car a BS27R just because you acquired some tags?  This is why you need an expert to inspect and also why it is a crime (at least in California).
I might add that just because someone got away with it in the past, it doesn't make it right.
Here are a couple of links that may be helpful.
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&division=4.&title=&part=&chapter=3.&article=
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&division=4.&title=&part=&chapter=3.5.&article=

 

[cuda dad]

Final post from me on this
I only got involved in this because I would not want to see someone unknowingly do the wrong thing or worse yet, see someone get burned.
Right or wrong, legal or illegal, these cars are on our midst and they should have their own category.  Since they have tags that were lifted from a different car that presumably no longer exists, I think they should be called GHOST CARS.
We could start a new thread to list them in.  Start with the AAR with the A/C firewall.
Goodnight!

[anlauto]

...and this is why this topic will never be solved....it's been a spirited conversation for decades, and everybody's opinion is valid and should be recognised as such.

[Brads70]

My 

Anything "man made" can be made again,if you have the money, time and talent. I worked as a tech inspector for 25 years at a circle track. In an effort to limit money being spent on engines they came out with a sealed crate engine from GM . It has "special" break off bolts on the intake, heads and timing cover. The track owner was all proud and confident that no one could cheat with these engines. Me being the tech inspector laughed and said give me an hour and I'll produce one of these bolts for you. He was shocked. A few months later the entire bolt kit was available on E-Bay LOL. In addition,with access to an EDM machine anyone can make any casting numbers you want.   Again "ANYTHING" MAN MADE CAN BE REPRODUCED, just depends on how determined you are. Making rules that you can't enforce is futile.

As technology advances, consider other man made products that can be reproduced, such as firearms? Not too hard to make them with or without serial numbers?
Just need a mill and a lathe and almost anything can be reproduced.

Laws like padlocks are just there to keep honest people honest.  I'd guess the "intent" of laws is to prevent chop shops from stealing cars and reworking the numbers to get a "clean title" again. Even if these cars had the vin tags welded to the chassis it can simply be done again. Again "Anything man made can be made again"
Same with laws regarding rebodies. It's futile to make a law that says you can't remove the rivets on dash tags. Especially when it's ok in some states/country's and not others. I'd argue/guess 95% of the ebodies on the road have had their dash pads replaced. 
None of these cars are "original"  Replace a wheel bearing or a light bulb and it's not original anymore. So who gets to decide at what point, how many parts can be replaced before it's not "original" in the sight of the "original police" or the rebody police"  Certainly not a small group of self proclaimed "experts"  Anyone can "be bought"

Take Steve Juliano's  stolen Mod Top  'Cuda, who's to say it hasn't been rebodied by now. (I hope not, that is/was a sweet car) or parted out and 20 years from now someone will recreate it? Only the value will prevent someone from doing so. Meaning is the effort to do so worth the payoff.

I'd say as long as your not making a new car that never existed before (or two of the same car) 
then have at it , as there is not now or has ever been , or ever will be, a fool proof way to police anything otherwise. Don't make rules or laws that are unenforceable. It's a waste of resources.   
As these cars get more valuable as time marches on this perceived problem will only get worse.
Buying one of these cars as an investment based on the "numbers stamped on it" certainly has it's "high stakes", and the chances are pretty high that almost none of them are "original"
Maybe some people should spend more time driving/enjoying these cars as they were meant to do, and not spending so much time looking at the vin tag numbers? IMO , life is too short for that game? If your more concerned with the numbers stamped on your car instead of driving it it..... well your not "doing it right". Your missing out dude!   

[torredcuda]

Point of clarification on the dash VIN removal for restoration that everyone misses.
It is not illegal to remove VIN, it's done all the time by body shops.
When you read the law, it clearly states "with the intent to commit fraud".
This part is always overlooked.

I also have no issue with that car being brought back to life.
When you can buy and replace all the sheet metal, why not.

Not true, in some states you cannot remove the vin or have to have the authorities watch or do it themselves. Federal law states "with intent to commit fraud" which leaves rebodying open to interpretation IMO. Rebodying is a gray area and there is no clear cut law as to what differentiates a restoration and a rebody when it come to replacing a lot of the body.

[torredcuda]

This is spot on IMO - "I'd say as long as your not making a new car that never existed before (or two of the same car) 
then have at it , as there is not now or has ever been , or ever will be, a fool proof way to police anything otherwise. Don't make rules or laws that are unenforceable. It's a waste of resources."

[anlauto]

  Very well said Brad

[JS29]

The way i see it, a motor vehicle that has a VIN that has been changed into another motor vehicle is a re-body. I vehicle that was rebuilt from parts of another vehicle, and or new parts isn't a re-body. When your new or newer vehicle is wrecked, it gets repaired. New, used, aftermarket parts are used to repair it. 

[RUNCHARGER]

I'm a bit conflicted on this. I would like to see the VIN# saved on a car but I wouldn't want a VIN from an envelope on a car that I own. It would feel slightly better if you bought the rusty/wrecked shell with the #'s intact and then swap parts to it from a donor although I know it probably ends up being a worse car in the end depending on who does the repairs.
I really prefer to buy original paint cars from long term owners and fix them myself, I like to know where a car came from just so I can feel better about the car. I don't buy fancy VIN #'s to impress someone else about what I own, maybe that's the difference.

[torredcuda]

The way i see it, a motor vehicle that has a VIN that has been changed into another motor vehicle is a re-body. I vehicle that was rebuilt from parts of another vehicle, and or new parts isn't a re-body. When your new or newer vehicle is wrecked, it gets repaired. New, used, aftermarket parts are used to repair it. 

Newer cars do get rebuilt with front/rear clips and large sections of donor vehicles and even complete main bodies, depending on the insurance and state regs it may or may not end up with a salvage title. On old cars the question is when it becomes a rebody vs a rebuild - how much of the original body needs to be left?