down the re-body rabbit hole

[6bblgt]

3+ decades ago a friend found & purchased a well used and abused 440 4-speed DANA 60 "roller" project car without an engine
it was a big project but cheap / cool / musclecar projects were few & far between and the car ended up being sold a number of times with many of its desirable pieces being liberated over the years

during one of the musclecar "booms" it was re-bodied (a nearly rust free uni-body was re-numbered to represent the original car) and the "restored" car hit the cruise lots & show fields
after numerous "if you ever want to sell" inquiries from the same individual spanning several years, the car was sold with "full disclosure" including the title & tags from the donor vehicle

that individual currently has the car for sale, its description reads like the car was a mild climate low-mile barn find numbers matching virgin treated to a light but complete restoration

where & with whom does any liability exist? - please add your  - even if it is "buyer beware"

[7212Mopar]

First guy who did the renumber and the second guy for withhold from full disclosure?

[kdcarman]

 

[bcudachris]

I'd say legally the guy who did (or the 1st guy to sell it after it was done).  Maybe the purchaser (now seller), but what did he know and when did he know it? 

Probably not worth enough to warrant a criminal investigation or even the effort of bringing a civil suit though unless somebody is doing this serially and frequently.  The controversy will probably make it a legendary car in the coming decades though.

FWIW, in general aviation, building a new airframe around data plates and an airworthy certificate is perfectly acceptable, as long as everything is logged properly.  Rarely is it worth the investment and I'm sure there are shenanigans.

[1 Wild R/T]

I know of a TX9 V code Roadrunner with a re-stamped block... Same deal I know it was disclosed by the guy who did it... But the buyer who soon after sold it again didn't disclose... Now who's to blame... Sorry they both carry some degree of responsibility... More so the guy who did the re-stamp cause for all his good intentions there was never a reason to do it...  You know down the line the story is gonna change...  Just human nature...

[Rich G.]

My take is if all the numbers match the title then I feel it's up to the buyer to do his investigation to see if they were cut in and replaced. If they don't match I'm not sure what the answer is. If you restore a car with a bad radiator support are you supposed to cut out the vin numbers and splice the piece in? It's not original metal now so why try to hide that it was replaced? I've never seen MV check a body number other then a vin tag. Bottom line is buyer beware!

[anlauto]

Well....here's the thing....Back in the 80'-90's rebodying cars was done WAY more often then people like to believe. I'm talking all makes all models, by back yard hicks and be the highest end restoration shops...If your HEMICUDA had a bunch of rust in the trunk and lower quarters...no sweat, just go get a Southern shell...Yes we know it's illegal and immoral Barry, but it was done a lot.

When shopping for a 440 block for the Barrelcuda....I went to a engine building shop that I heard about from the TV show "Dream Car Garage" the guy there told me straight up that they can re-stamp the VIN on a block and do it all the time for customers...
I personally know a guy that used to work for a very high end restoration shop back in the day...He still has the rusted out VIN-less shells from some really rare Fords/Chevs in his barn.

So with the car Dan is talking about....it is what it is....if it was "re-numbered" correctly, then I say the car is just that....a restored version of a neat car....if you can't live with it, then satisfy yourself by purchasing an original survivor car, because ANY restored car could have been rebodied at one point in it's life or had so much rust repair that it should have been rebodied.

As for the current seller making up a BS story to sell the car....well that's about as old as snake oil...believe what you want to believe.

[70 Challenger Lover]

It is incumbent on sellers to disclose stuff like this to buyers. This exists in real estate transactions now and failing to disclose known issues can bring about lawsuits.

It is also on buyers to do their homework to avoid these kind of problems later. It's not required of course but it's foolhardy to rush in an assume everyone in the world is honest. You can sue even if you are foolhardy but what a headache.

Is it illegal? There are usually state laws, yes. But they are designed for operations that deliberately go out and hurt people again and again. Not for the hobbyists who have no bad motives. It is also illegal to reset an odometer but can anyone seriously believe prosecutors would go after some old guy who restored his dash and reset the odometer? Of course not, the law is intended to go after used car salesmen who would turn it back for purposes of fraud.

I hear the term fraud a lot and it is misused. It comes down to intent. Did the seller deliberately deceive the buyer in an attempt to make a financial gain?

[Katfish]

 Unless it was disclosed on bill of sale or written, it's all on the guy who did the swap.
"He never told me......"

Having said that, I agree with above, no intent, no fraud.

[70 Challenger Lover]

In my view, it's on the guy who failed to disclose it down the road during a sale.

As an example, I rebody a car with no bad intent on my part. I sell it years later to a guy with full disclosure. If the new owner later sells it and fails to disclose it, I would say that person is to blame in a civil lawsuit because he had the information and held it back during the second sale, arguably to get more money (so the lawsuit will claim). You wouldn't be able to go after me because I never had any dealings with the the new third owner I've never met and therefore I cannot defraud a man in the future that I didn't know of. In fact, I'd laugh and point out that I sold it for a loss by being honest and disclosing the information when the next guy in line did not. You're laying blame on the wrong guy in my view.

I have an RT I may sell in the coming months. I bought a new fender tag because the original was forever lost by a previous owner. I did it simply because I think fender tags look cool in an engine compartment. Not because I'm trying to deceive a buyer down the road in an effort to get more money. I will disclose this during the ad and again in conversation prior to the sale. We all know the original tag adds value but with my car it will not since its reproduction.

If this car changes hands 20 times in the next 20 years and someone unscrupulously does not disclose this fact to a buyer, it's certainly not my fault years later. How could it be since I am unable to predict the future? It's the guy who chose to keep his mouth shut in an effort to get more money. So what if that fact does not come to light and the car changes hands 20 more times over an additional 20 years? Sellers may be selling the car thinking the fender tag is authentic (because no one ever told them it wasn't). At some point, a buyer is out of luck if they buy a car without doing their homework AND the seller truly didn't know there was some information like that in need of disclosure.

[1 Wild R/T]

But, honestly, why would you move the numbers.. If the new body is better, register the new body & let the rust bucket die....  You moved the numbers cause you placed a higher level of desirability on the rusty body's VIN... So whether you disclosed it or not your responsible...

Like Dan posted... It's a rabbit hole.....

[JS29]

What a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive!  1wild R/T has a point, leaving the correct VIN would make it just another clone. if you wanted a cool car to drive, and had both a solid body C or G code, and a wrecked or rotted car that was a muscle version,  and wanted to have fun, you would not commit a felony.      

[6Pack70]

Right now, as we speak, hobbyists are home with new reproduction panels moving their body numbers over to the new rust free panels.  Some guys could care less, some guys really want the pieces to look like they did. Its being done on tons and tons of rare cars and trucks. I have no issues with that.  When it comes to using an enitre unibody structure,  I personally would much rather use a super clean, straight,  doner unibody made on the assembly line 50 years ago than replace every single piece except for part of a roof pillar and one rocker panel with  replacement metal.  If that's what it takes to keep the spirit of a very cool and rare musclecar alive and you have things like a buildsheet, fender tag, door sticker, dash vin and all the body stampings and the numbers matching drivetrain.....so be it.  One thing I would certainly make sure of,  disclose the work you did to get it to that restored condition to a buyer and have them sign a document saying they are aware of what they are buying. Have it notarized.  Done.  If a buyer doesn't feel comfortable with full disclosure and signing his or her name to the acknowledgement,  then just walk away.  Simple.   Just my opinion.

[6Pack70]

When's the last time someone was hauled into jail for moving his vin number over to a better dash pad?  Aren't we not supposed to be tampering with them?  Same for the odometer on my restored gauges going back to 2 miles.   Should I actually be in jail?  Or am I just a guy who is passionate for Mopars and does the best i can to make them look close to how they did back in the day.  I'm proud to show people the work I can accomplish on an old car and I've never done a thing to deceive anyone.  I do know that there are people out there that make it their job to rip people off.  I've been screwed myself a couple times.  As long as someone is honest about what it took to save a great automoblie, I'm ok with that.  Guys who fabricate new vin numbers and create incredible buildsheets and tags for cars that never existed are scum.  They certainly belong behind bars.

[anlauto]

The discussion comes up all the time and it really is a chicken before the egg type conversation...