E-Bodies.org Cuda Challenger Forum

As I continue the metal work on my 70 Challenger, I know I want to add a rear sway bar. My car is a shell at the moment and it occurs to me I will need to have the rear suspension compressed to set up the rear bar. Mainly, I just want to ensure I weld the brackets at the right location on the rear rails. The shell is on a rack currently and I hope to transfer it next to a rotisserie to at least epoxy and paint the underside.

Any thoughts on how to mock up the rear axle tube so I can figure out where the frame rail brackets go?

On another note, I'm considering the Hotchkis bar. Any others I should look at?

if you use a factory rear bar there should be dimples where the brackets are mounted & the screws go in .

I was hoping to use a thicker aftermarket one. But maybe Hotchkis locates their frame bracket in the same spot which would tell me where to weld without having to put anything together for mock up.

I'm pretty sure most, or at least several, of the aftermarket bars use different mounting points than the OEM frame locations. 

On my car, the frame rails rusted BADLY under the sway bar mount brackets.  Probably not as much a problem now as when these cars were daily driven in the rain and snow. But keep that in mind.  Anytime you are layering components like that where moisture can get in between them.

Everything is new metal now and once finished, it won't see the harsh elements again.

I think what I'm going to have to do is finish the rear metal work and sit it back on the ground, on its rear wheels and compress the suspension normally, then mock up the new bar and figure out the ideal location of the frame brackets. I want to get the car on a rotisserie at some point to clean and paint the underside so I can always weld the brackets in then once I have the proper location identified.

I purchased my rear swaybar from Firmfeel.  Factory specs, bolts at factory location, tho i think the factory welded the brackets on.

That looks pretty nice. Appreciate the photos.

I have the Hotchkis rear bar. Here are some pictures if it helps?

Quote from: EB3-GranCoupe on May 04, 2020, 03:09:11 PM
I purchased my rear swaybar from Firmfeel.  Factory specs, bolts at factory location, tho i think the factory welded the brackets on.

Nope.  The factory brackets are bolted in.  Similar to that picture.

Thanks for the Hotchkis picture. That's the one I was considering for a few reasons. It's thicker, the brackets are heavy duty welded to the frame and it goes under the rear end which would provide good exhaust pipe clearance.

If the brackets were a 1/2" too high or too low, that would change the angle of the bar slightly but would that matter? I was looking at their instructions and it only said to mock it up to determine the bracket location. It did not specify the ideal bar angle. I assume level. I also noticed three positions on the links. What does changing them one way or the other do for performance?

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 04, 2020, 05:38:49 PM
Thanks for the Hotchkis picture. That's the one I was considering for a few reasons. It's thicker, the brackets are heavy duty welded to the frame and it goes under the rear end which would provide good exhaust pipe clearance.

If the brackets were a 1/2" too high or too low, that would change the angle of the bar slightly but would that matter? I was looking at their instructions and it only said to mock it up to determine the bracket location. It did not specify the ideal bar angle. I assume level. I also noticed three positions on the links. What does changing them one way or the other do for performance?

I'd wait till it was on the suspension before I welded on the bracket. If you get it wrong the bar could hang down too low. The 3 hole change the rate by making the arm shorter or longer. Always nice to have options. IMO . Nice thing about this bar is when I changed to a B-Body width Dana it simply bolted back on to the new housing. No mods required. Its also much lighter that the stock set up or Firm feel set up. 


I guess it you welded it on in the wrong spot one could simply make a new link using rod ends easy enough?

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 04, 2020, 05:38:49 PM
It's thicker, the brackets are heavy duty welded to the frame and it goes under the rear end which would provide good exhaust pipe clearance.

I have a PST bar which goes under the rear end as well. BUT, from a handling perspective they are not as good as the frame mounted bars because when they are axle mounted, they are unsprung weight. Which is detrimental to handling.

Simply slapping a large rear bar under a car doesn't always create the desired results. Sway bars work as a system with the suspension. If, based on your current front suspension, your car is a bit loose or tail happy already, which can happen depending on your torsion bar and leaf spring choice, adding a rear sway can make it even worse.

There also are numerous design considerations that are part of the formula. I have found that the factory 3/4" rear sway bar produces almost the same rate as some 7/8" aftermarket bars.  This is due to the length of the attaching arms.  The factory style arms are much shorter than every aftermarket offering out there.

There also is the frame hung vs axle hung difference. While it is always desirable to reduce unsprung weight, IMO most of us can't tell the difference in unsprung weight a 10-15# sway bar produces. Heck, I've seen many people ditch aftermarket wheels for stock versions that add that much weight  PER  WHEEL, and not notice a difference.

In any case, if you still want a factory style but in a larger version, call the guys at Firm Feel and ask them about it.  While they only advertise the factory style .75 inch unit, I believe they  can bend up a larger version for you at an extra cost.

I didn't see this mentioned but, pay attention to your proposed exhaust routing. The Hotchkis bar runs under the axle, which allows for lots of space above the axle for exhaust to run over and out the back.

As mentioned, the couple pound difference of unsprung weight here isn't going to matter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Does anyone sell just the bars to replace the originals while using the factory hardware or are they all "kits"?

I'm not aware of a direct replacement in the aftermarket.  If you are changing the bar diameter, you need to change the bushings too, so at that point a kit makes more sense.

QuoteI purchased my rear swaybar from Firmfeel.  Factory specs, bolts at factory location, tho i think the factory welded the brackets on.

QuoteNope.  The factory brackets are bolted in.  Similar to that picture.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about the strap that fits around the bushing.  The bracket is bolted to the frame rail but the strap is welded to the bracket on the factory part.  His picture shows the strap is bolted onto the bracket on the Firmfeel part.

On the car I'm building, I'm adding the US Car Tools bracing kit. Sub frame connectors, torque boxes, etc. I was considering using factory style heavy leaf springs unless you guys recommend otherwise. I definitely want heavy torsion bars, heavy front sway bar, poly bushings everywhere, really nice shocks, better upper control arms. I have already welded up my K frame and steering box area on the K frame.

I'm very open to opinions so lay them on me. I want to car to handle reasonably well. The main reason for asking all this now is it makes sense to ensure all metal work and welding is complete before I put it on the rotisserie and start cleaning and painting it up. I'm not crazy about stuff that bolts on. I'm probably way over thinking all this but I'd rather have heavy duty reinforcement plates welded in key areas rather than stuff that bolts up. I guess I have in mind that it will look cleaner this way when finished.

Are you going to reinforce the lower control arms?  :alan2cents:

Already done. I even cut of the old slim sway bar bushing mounts and welded on thicker ones.

Like the age old saying " going fast costs money, how fast do you want to go"
Also applies to handling.
It's the sum of various parts working together that make a nice handling car, no one part is the magic bullet. 
You get what you pay for with shocks. Double adjustable are nice!
Tires are also key, Eg. BFG T/A 's  are not made for handling . Personally I wouldn't use them on my wheelbarrow but that's just my opinion....

E-Bodies suffer from horrible bump steer. Keep in mind the suspension geometry was designed for bias ply tires, meaning handling was not the top priority. When I first got my car it was the worst handling/braking car I had ever owned.  I spent many hours with my car blocked up at ride height trying various parts till I was happy. Then I got good rubber. Any parts supplier that tells you to bolt on this part and you will have zero bump steer is full of .... Many use key "buzz words" to sell you their products.

Here is what I did if it helps any?  I used composite leaf springs, I'm happy with them!
https://forum.e-bodies.org/wheels-tires-brakes-suspension-and-steering/12/-using-c-body-spindles-on-an-e-body-and-a-body-lcas-and-viper-calipers/58/

#70 Challenger Lover    In my opinion, do not use the heavy leaf springs.  The car was too stiffly sprung from the factory.  Adding more spring will make it ride like a dump truck.  A softer leaf and quality shocks will help your ride and handling more so than making the spring stiffer.  The opposite is true for the torsion bars.  Bigger is better.  Let the shock take care of the control.  You seem to be on a good plan with your replacement parts.

Thanks.  No just wanted stock replacement bars.  The original front one is straight but has rust pits; the hardware is in good shape and I have new mount bushings and link kits.  The rear bar is apparently twisted; I have new links for it too.  Rear bushings look a bit tricky as the retainers arr welded together as though they were never meant to be replaced.  :dunno:

:wrenching:

Quote from: gzig5 on May 05, 2020, 09:06:18 AM
I'm not aware of a direct replacement in the aftermarket.  If you are changing the bar diameter, you need to change the bushings too, so at that point a kit makes more sense.

@Brads70 (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/brads70_12) good god man! A great article with tons of great information. All the front end stuff is definitely way way out of my league. Any advice for someone like me on upper arms and on TB size? My lowers are braced with stronger sway bar tabs. I don't mind making a few more mods but I can't do half the hands on mods you did. I do hope to pick the right uppers though.

Quote from: Brads70 on May 05, 2020, 04:26:28 PM
BFG T/A 's  are not made for handling . Personally I wouldn't use them on my wheelbarrow

:iagree:
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

I'm reusing the stock 383. I sort of wish I hadn't rebuilt it already. A 340 would look good in there.

I would say firm feel 1.060 and also their upper control arms.... one stop shopping

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 05, 2020, 05:47:18 PM
@Brads70 (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/brads70_12) good god man! A great article with tons of great information. All the front end stuff is definitely way way out of my league. Any advice for someone like me on upper arms and on TB size? My lowers are braced with stronger sway bar tabs. I don't mind making a few more mods but I can't do half the hands on mods you did. I do hope to pick the right uppers though.

I put SPC uppers on mine. Not horribly expensive, quality part and as much adjustment as you will ever need.

For leafs, I'm shopping as well. Prior owner installed the Heavy Duty Mopar Performance leafs and I'm getting the "dump truck" ride jordan mentioned above. No idea what their spring rate is, but whatever the number they are too stiff.  The Hotchkis Sport springs I'm looking at have a rate of 160lb and should soften the ride appreciably. They claim to be "Geometry Correcting" as well.

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 05, 2020, 07:15:35 PM
Well I was close to getting those MP springs. I'll look at the other options for sure. I would hate to do all this and have a terribly rough ride.

Not just a rough ride, they dropped the rear end bout 2 inches as well. I like the look, but it presents other problems sometimes.

Brad, just read your thread and noted you swapped your composite 175 rate composite leafs for a stiffer 225. Why did you change and how did it effect the ride stiffness? The Hotchkis I'm looking at are rated under where you started at 165lb.

Quote from: Scooter on May 05, 2020, 07:43:34 PM

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 05, 2020, 07:15:35 PM
Well I was close to getting those MP springs. I'll look at the other options for sure. I would hate to do all this and have a terribly rough ride.

Not just a rough ride, they dropped the rear end bout 2 inches as well. I like the look, but it presents other problems sometimes.

Brad, just read your thread and noted you swapped your composite 175 rate composite leafs for a stiffer 225. Why did you change and how did it effect the ride stiffness? The Hotchkis I'm looking at are rated under where you started at 165lb.

I found they were just too soft I could quite easily push the rear end down on the trunk lid/ bumper with my hands.  Might be the ticket for drag racing?

I doubt I'd ever be on a track competing but I'd like more of a modern ride with modern handling. Will I need 17-18" wheels to get there? It sounds like I might. The 165 lb Hotchkis leafs might be what I'm looking for. They look like an easy install too.

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 05, 2020, 07:57:42 PM
I doubt I'd ever be on a track competing but I'd like more of a modern ride with modern handling. Will I need 17-18" wheels to get there? It sounds like I might. The 165 lb Hotchkis leafs might be what I'm looking for. They look like an easy install too.

I've never had them but have read lots that say they lower the rear end quite a bit over stock even.    ( Hotchkis leafs)

Problem with 15"  is no one make really good tires for them anymore, 17" and more in 18" but that is not everyone's cup of tea either so...?

I looked up the Hyperco leafs and information seemed lacking on their site. Under Chrysler, they had different rates but what about length and height? I thought A, B, E body cars used different length springs. Do the Hyperco ones attach just like regular leafs? I like the idea of upgrading to better technology but I don't know if I want to re-engineer or redesign everything in my path. Seems like all this is a slippery slope.

Well... where should I begin?... starting from the late 70s, then heavy in the 80s... and still playing/enjoying today!  Amazing handling that surprises all observers... street/highway... and autocross/road race track activities.

Here's my setup:  Overall intention is national competition-level of SCCA Solo II autocross, street legal and driveable (within reason to avoid street potholes, railroad tracks, etc.).  In other words, smooth roads.  Most importantly, following racing class allowable "rules".

Small block ... conservative and reliable power; trans.. 727

Torsion bars: I've tried many progressive sizes... settled with size 1.24" (425#/inch).. largest that will fit through factory hex of 1.25".  How many times have you guys heard me say... "Don't be afraid of larger TBs!"  Get some good shocks for these, as well!   I would NEVER give up my 1.24 TBs... best single handling improvement ever!  I say, don't go below 1.12 or better yet, compromise at 1.18... Firm Feel will supply them.  Anything smaller... and you'll be guaranteed to say to yourself... "not bad, not stiff enough... should've gone larger/stiffer!"... mark my words!

Rear leafs: I've tried many kinds and progressed towards the light-weight FLEX-A-FORM mono-leafs (same company that had been making Corvette factory leafs)... they worked with me.. tried three different sets.. settled at 225 #/inch... with a 5" unsprung arch.  NOTE:  In determining leafs, you must know the rear corner weights of the car.  Your goal is a nearly flat compressed weighted leaf spring... any arch after compressed... it weakens the rear handling.  AND... this should be determined for your common and desired driving weight (trunk filled or empty? passengers?, etc).  IF I'd replace them again, I'd consider 250#/inch.. 4" unsprung arch.  YES, you can go too stiff in the rear, and regret it,  but what/where will your driving be?  In my opinion, the Hotchkis rear "steel" leafs are pretty good, just too soft... have them stiffened a little by adding another leaf at a spring shop.... or try them first for a while... then decide later.

Shocks:  With today's choices, its a no-brainer to simply go for double-adjustables... QA1 or Vikings... look at the variables you can play with to "tune" your ride?   Just get them and forget it....and spend the time "tuning" your ride.

Sway bars:  simply, 1.25" diameter hollow front... its actually 1-5/16" as I've measured from Firm Feel, some other brands might be slightly different (for light weight); and NO LESS than 3/4" rear.   I run a 1" rear solid, same shape as factory OE... custom made long time ago... Then, play with "tuning" these sway bars with the end-link bushings... all poly? not so desirable.. pending your driving style.   DON'T be afraid of a larger than 3/4" rear bar... this 1" rear bar equalizes the balance so much needed with our cars!!!

Upper control arms:  Anything other than factory stock will give you the more needed positive caster, and a little negative camber.  Advantage to the "adjustables" are an alignment with greater caster/camber;  the non-adjustables are fixed... limited to what they are made to be.   An alternate consideration is the Moog offset UCA bushings... installed reverse.. if your $$$ funds run low.

Lower control arms:  stiffening them is a good idea... but... the factory race AAR/T/A SCCA cars never had them stiffened... perhaps due to rules... but in today's world, get them braced, and with poly or Delrin lower bushings.

Subframe connectors... yes yes, yes... determine local allowable designs from club rules, if needed.  The full-contoured floor shaped designs may not be allowed, but most all others are typically allowed.

Steering: must have power steering, and add the "fast ratio" longer pitman and idler arms (clearance/ding your headers if needed.. make them fit... I know a few guys with BB engines/headers that simply ding their headers for clearance.  ALSO, ONLY use the SAGINAW pump... toss the FEDERAL in the recycle bin.   NOTE: The longer idler arm is/always has been just a ~70 C-body idler arm... that matches the length of the longer Fast Ratio pitman arms.

Get a smaller steering wheel... helps quicken your steering.

Get some better supporting bucket seats... high side bolster!!!!   sit in some for your desired comfort... take your time in selecting these.

Lighten your car ... fiberglass hood?  Aluminum engine components?... physics... lighter = faster.. acceleration, deceleration, cornering... FUN!

Wheels and tires:  a great simple choice, in my opinion, are the YEAR ONE 17x9... installed FRONT AND REAR... with 275-40-17 tires... they have the CORRECT backspacing...  NO worries front or rear (maybe just fold the lips little for peace-of-mind).

Yes... 18" have broader tire size selections... backspacing of rims are critical.. 8" (4.5"); 9" (5"), 10" (5.5")

Finally, engine... OIL PAN... get a baffles pan... MILODON has what we needed .. get the road race/touring pan.

Hope your project gets all the love and attention it deserves!  Take the time... do it right!

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 05, 2020, 08:13:07 PM
I looked up the Hyperco leafs and information seemed lacking on their site. Under Chrysler, they had different rates but what about length and height? I thought A, B, E body cars used different length springs. Do the Hyperco ones attach just like regular leafs? I like the idea of upgrading to better technology but I don't know if I want to re-engineer or redesign everything in my path. Seems like all this is a slippery slope.

They are close to super stock dimensions , so they require different front hangers, here is a post I made/copied from our old site. They will force you to get good shocks, I went with QA1 double adjustable and they have been great.
https://forum.e-bodies.org/wheels-tires-brakes-suspension-and-steering/12/composite-rear-leaf-springs-on-an-e-body/59/msg353#msg353

Rough spring rates based on observation:
MP Oval track 120#
OEM XHD 160#
Super Stock 180#
Adding a rear sway bar will enhance the roll rate of a leaf spring and turn that 180# into a 230# when in a corner.

I'm actually surprised that Mitch and Brad are running springs over 200#. Based on the calculations for my car, I needed 180# roll rate which was a 120# oval track spring with a 1" rear sway bar.  Haven't tracked it yet to validate the calculations but they were based of my years of competition experience.

Roughness of a ride is often lack of spring control (inadequate or mis-matched shocks rates)  unless you are bottoming the spring constantly. If you are bottoming out, then you have inadequate spring rate. Its important to think of shocks like you think of a camshaft to an engine. They create the parameters in which the rest of the suspension performs. Low, mid, and high speed valve circuits are all part of shock technology that create control.

Double adjustable shocks are a great tuning tool if you like to tinker with them, keep records, and change the tune for conditions of driving. If you are a set it and forget it type or only use your car for a cruiser, double adjustable shock  create twice as many ways to get the adjustment wrong and not only destroy the ride, but can actually make the car dangerous if you go too far the wrong direction. A quality non-adjustable, or single adjustable  reduce the potential for mistakes.

Thanks for all the valuable information. I have to ask though...when people say, "I wish I went with heavier leafs and/or TBs," are they saying this because they want a package that's more competitive on the track or because it feels too soft on the road during normal driving?

My goal is to build a cruiser that has lots of modern upgrades, some convenience and comfort while also trying to improve overall performance and handling that is more comparable to a typical modern daily driver sedan. It might find it's way onto a willow springs track someday just for fun but that would be rare and maybe never. I just don't want to shake my fillings out on long cruises.

My vision once was having 15" chrome road wheels on the car because I love the look and the rest of the car is going to be a flat hood sleeper in a subdued color. I really don't care for the look of larger aftermarket wheels but I guess I can live with them if they match the handling performance of the suspension.

I also prefer rubber bushings everywhere for comfort and less vibration but I assume rubber bushings defeat the advantages of a good suspension system. Is this correct. I want comfort first with improved handling if I can get it. I think the stiffening components I added will make a difference no matter what I do.

I'm sure there are a myriad of opinions about stepping up springs rates and overall ride comfort vs performance. Mitch and Brad and myself tend to be more competition oriented. Others more cruiser oriented. Generally speaking, an average car today is sprung 30% higher than our classics. Add performance use and those rates can be even higher.  More rigid uni-body structures to better utilize the rates, increased shock control and precision, as well as consumer expectations of handling have all changed what we expect out of a daily driver compared to what was the norm of 1970. So even just a baseline of what constitutes a nice cruiser means that the .88 t-bar that was stock in your car should be a 1.0 minimum.

Rubber bushings do not defeat the advantage of stepped up rates. New cars still use rubber bushings in many places. Granted the rubber is a different compound and may be thinner to reduce deflection, but you can make a big step up in comfort and control with stepped rates and rubber bushings. Remember the shock comment above. The shock is the heart of it all in the suspension. If the budget is tight, I'd recommend significantly more capable shocks ahead of suspension upgrades.

For 15" tires, yes the choices are very limited and are pretty much only available in what the industry calls "cosmetic performance" tires. They look fast with raised white letters but are hard compounds designed for cool running and for long mileage. There are still two decent units out there, Maxxis Marauder and Mickey Thompson SR. Both are H speed rated with softer compounds. The MT is the softer of the two with a newer carcass design based off their 18" performance line. But neither are available with raised white letters. If you want a broader range of speed ratings and compounds, you need to step up to 17" or better yet 18". However, I will caveat stepped up tires sizes with the observation that the industry keeps changing diameters and widths so if you choose a very specific larger diameter and width you will eventually not be able to get the exact size you want unless you chose a size that was an OEM option on some vehicle, ergo Viper, Vette, Camaro, or Mustang sizes. OEM sizes on these vehicles will continue to be available longer after custom sizes disappear.

I'd also add that with the leaf rates I provided above, all those different leafs have different mounting configurations that will require other changes to hangers to use them. Chrysler in the day tended to make things application specific and not a general one size fits all. Everything impacts everything else and sometimes one change may necessitate six supporting changes. Unless you want to get into the nitty gritty of changes, details, and keep accurate records of the changes, I'd recommend sticking with OEM configuration stuff.

The simplest solution for good handling and ride comfort is to call Hotchkis and order their kit. Bang, your done. If you want some tech advice along the way or want to discuss possible alternatives, call Firm Feel and tell them your goals and buy their  list of recommended pieces. If you really want to dig in the details and specifics of why and what for, we can help you with that here.

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 05, 2020, 07:57:42 PM
I doubt I'd ever be on a track competing but I'd like more of a modern ride with modern handling. Will I need 17-18" wheels to get there? It sounds like I might. The 165 lb Hotchkis leafs might be what I'm looking for. They look like an easy install too.

Just ordered the 165 lb Hotchkis sport leaf kit which advertises an approximate 1 inch drop over stock and their heavy duty shackles. My flattened Mopar Performance springs have me at 24 inches ground to fender lip in the rear, good chance I'll gain an inch or so back with this kit. I'll let you know how it goes in and what the ride feels like when I get it installed.

To add a little more, regarding tire selections, your ride comfort will change pending sidewall height.

Tall 70 or 60-series have more sidewall to absorb the bumps, but will flex more during cornering.

50-45-40-35 series have shorter sidewalls and don't offer the absorption like the taller sidewall tires.  I other words, shorter sidewall tires will give a progressively firmer ride... you'll feel more of the road bumps.... and potentiall damage your rims easily if you hit some bad pot-holes in the road.

Tire pressures can be adjusted and will also make a difference in the ride comfort.

For my "street/hwy" cruising, I have 15x8 rims using BFG T/As  275-60-15 rear, 255-60-15 fronts.. providing good road comfort.. and reasonable grip, but they are a hard compound for mileage and truly not a track/performance tire.

For my track events, I'm using 16" diameter rims... two sets of rims... 16x10 for my Hoosier A6/7 competition events 275-45-16 f/r, or else my 16x8 using BFG G-Force Comp T/As... 255-50-16 f/r.. for lapping sessions (HPDE/HSAX)... and cruising on the highway to/from the distant road race tracks.   I plan to get some 18x10s and run 200 TW tires 275-35-18 f/r... although I also like the YearOne 17x9 Ralley rims... would easily fit f/r with 275-40-17 tires ... but a relatively small overall diameter (those 15" 255 and 275 60-series BFGs fill the wheel wells much better for appearance).

PS:  Yes, as said above, I favor my comments towards serious handling setups.. competition and street... if comfort is what someone wants... then you're compromising... and will give up performance.... individual's choice (even I've made a few compromises with my setup).

PSS: M/T tires are actually pretty good performance tires... 15" available.

Good info there Mitch.
On  the tires, are you satisfied with the performance/grip of the 255-275 wide DOT tires?  Or is there grip or better braking to be had if you were to run a 295-315?  For now, I'm not too worried about class rules.

Thanks for those photos. I really like the lower stance and way the 15" wheels fill the wheel wells there. I am very strongly leaning towards all Hotchkis stuff using my 15" chrome road wheels with maybe MT tires if they are good performers. I'm okay with shorter tire life since it will never be a daily driver. I'm going to have to compromise in a few areas and wheels are probably one area. I just feel like if I go with a bigger aftermarket wheel, I won't get the look I really want and will always be a little disappointed. The look and the comfort are definitely important to me just like improving performance where I can.

Quote from: Scooter on May 05, 2020, 06:56:10 PM
They claim to be "Geometry Correcting" as well.

I wonder what this means when talking about the leaf springs. I understand the front end 'geometry correcting' relating to caster. But what are they correcting on the rear?

I was wondering that as well. I think they are using that term towards their unique front hanger. I can see it's different but I wonder if they tilt it up or down of what? I have other front hangers and I'm curious to compare them and see what the differences are.

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 07, 2020, 05:21:21 PM
I was wondering that as well. I think they are using that term towards their unique front hanger. I can see it's different but I wonder if they tilt it up or down of what? I have other front hangers and I'm curious to compare them and see what the differences are.

I'll let you know if there is any notable difference from the stock hangar when they get here. I mean, it bolts into the same 4 mounting holes as the stock hanger. They can only be moving the hole the front leaf bolt goes through by much. Wonder if they are possibly talking about the overall lowering effect and not the hangar specifically?

Quote. . .
Dramatically improve the cornering performance traction and response of your Mopar E-Body with Hotchkis Sport Suspension Geometry Correcting Sport Leaf Springs. Specifically designed to reduce roll steer this kit features a Hotchkis exclusive Geometry Correcting Bolt-In Relocation Bracket paired up with 160lb/in light weight leaf springs to improve handling performance and balance . The 1 in. lowered design reduces the vehicles center of gravity and enhances the appearance.
. . .

:dunno:

I'm thinking perhaps it's the locating pin at the axle tube. Maybe they move the axle backwards a half inch or something like that?

 The geometry correction Hotchkis is referring to is two fold. In their leaf springs it is the use of a berlin eye instead of a standard eye. Their belief is this eye better transmits force directly through the mounting point without the leverage created by a standard eye. It also provides nominal lowering effect as well. In the hanger bracket it is similarly a vertical centering of the mounting location within the bracket compared to the stock style that is slightly offset. Like the spring, the belied is this centralizes forces instead of leveraging them, the reduction in leverage reduces vertical travel of the leaf to reduce roll steer, and it provides a slight lowering effect.

I would also add that in its best handling form, a leaf spring should appear to be flat in its as installed position. The Mopar oval track springs are only offered with 1" or 0" of arch exactly for this purpose.  The Hotchkis springs take the same principle and apply it in a bolt in method that does not require special hangers, shackles, or custom driveshaft lengths that the Oval track springs  absolutely require.  Scooter, I'd be cautious that the Hotchkis leafs will provide any lift over the OEM springs, even if  the old ones appear flat.

I'd also point out if you look at their spring rates, Hotchkis suggests a 1.1 torsion bar, 165# leafs matched with a a 1.25 tubular front and a .812 tubular rear sway bars.  While their overall sway bar diameters are larger than most other offerings, their tubular construction means their applied rates (as well as overall weight) are down slightly from other versions only available in solid. In sway bars, the rates produced by that 1.25 tubular is close to 1.125 solid and the .812 tubular will be close to a .75 solid.

Suffice it to say that there are a dozen ways to end up with a similar set of parameters.This is why so many people look at suspension as a kind of a voodoo art.

Quote from: HP2 on May 08, 2020, 06:53:31 AM
I would also add that in its best handling form, a leaf spring should appear to be flat in its as installed position.

Good to know. My xhd's are flat, have been for a long time and I like the ride height they give. But I've often wondered if I'm not giving up some handling benefits by not having a bit of arch.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It helps me a lot. I actually like the idea of lowering the car 1" as I think the stance just looks better. In fact, I picked up a set of the Moroso front hangers just so I could have that lower mounting point. If I go with the Hotchkis leafs, I don't really see any downsides. I assume their rear sway bar is appropriately sized to work well with their rear leafs? I can't imagine they would design things that don't compliment each other.

Quote from: HP2 on May 08, 2020, 06:53:31 AM
The geometry correction Hotchkis is referring to is two fold. In their leaf springs it is the use of a berlin eye instead of a standard eye. Their belief is this eye better transmits force directly through the mounting point without the leverage created by a standard eye. It also provides nominal lowering effect as well. In the hanger bracket it is similarly a vertical centering of the mounting location within the bracket compared to the stock style that is slightly offset. Like the spring, the belied is this centralizes forces instead of leveraging them, the reduction in leverage reduces vertical travel of the leaf to reduce roll steer, and it provides a slight lowering effect.

I would also add that in its best handling form, a leaf spring should appear to be flat in its as installed position. The Mopar oval track springs are only offered with 1" or 0" of arch exactly for this purpose.  The Hotchkis springs take the same principle and apply it in a bolt in method that does not require special hangers, shackles, or custom driveshaft lengths that the Oval track springs  absolutely require.  Scooter, I'd be cautious that the Hotchkis leafs will provide any lift over the OEM springs, even if  the old ones appear flat.

I'd also point out if you look at their spring rates, Hotchkis suggests a 1.1 torsion bar, 165# leafs matched with a a 1.25 tubular front and a .812 tubular rear sway bars.  While their overall sway bar diameters are larger than most other offerings, their tubular construction means their applied rates (as well as overall weight) are down slightly from other versions only available in solid. In sway bars, the rates produced by that 1.25 tubular is close to 1.125 solid and the .812 tubular will be close to a .75 solid.

Suffice it to say that there are a dozen ways to end up with a similar set of parameters.This is why so many people look at suspension as a kind of a voodoo art.

Noted and thanks for the very good info! I'm not counting on any lift at all and would be happy if the settled position of the new leaf leaves the car where it sits currently. Based my thought on many posts saying the MP springs really flatten a tonne. I have not seen many cars on the boards that sit as low as mine does that was not by design. I'm at 24 inches ground to fender lip at the back.

If the new leafs from Hotchkis (Am I the only one who reads that name as "Hot Chicks" every time?) throw the handling off I'll look into replacing the TB  and sway to suit. 

Quick follow up on tires, anyone have thoughts of the Dunlop SP Sport GT? I've seen these pop up a few times in tire searches.

Can't say I've ever comes across the Dunlop SP Sport GT before. 

Googled it and they only come up at Ebay, Wal-Mart, and a place called Priority Tire. Dunlop site has no info on it at all.  Checked the distributors that listed them. Interesting tread pattern but they list it as S speed rated with no UTQG. The speed rating and lack of UTQG info kinda kills my hope of it being a true UHP tire. Tread design is such that the RWL MUST be facing out.

Wonder if these are kind of like classic BFG TA and Firestone Firehawks in that they are vintage molds producing new tires for secondary level distributors. Not bad for most use but probably not something I'd use since I learn more towards the competition side of things.

Ultimate 15"  tires will be Avon CR6ZZ. These are a Z speed rated, d.o.t. competition tire with a UTQG rating of 80. But, at $500 each, probably won't find their way on to too many cruisers. These are real popular with Cobra, Pantera and vintage Ford GT guys.

^^ Thanks HP2! Been looking at alternatives and for raised white letter in 15" there is not much. Might even consider buying some blackwall and adding the raised letters myself, seems to be a thing now and many are doing it. Think yellow GOODYEAR letters would look slamming on my black/yellow ride.

**add** Gotta ask a stupid tire question. I was looking at the MT Sportsman S/R on Summit, sizes listed like such: 26x8R15, Radial, Blackwall. Is there a conversion somewhere I'm missing? Current size on car is 255 60r-15?

HP, you beat me to mentioning the Avon CR6ZZ's.  Those and Goodyear BlueStreaks are both tract tires, but at least the Avon has some 'tread' design.  I picked up a panhard rod kit & will install that on the next build, which is destined for track duty. I'm a couple years out from finishing, as the project was slated to start this month :-(

Quote from: Scooter on May 08, 2020, 03:07:02 PM
^^ Thanks HP2! Been looking at alternatives and for raised white letter in 15" there is not much. Might even consider buying some blackwall and adding the raised letters myself, seems to be a thing now and many are doing it. Think yellow GOODYEAR letters would look slamming on my black/yellow ride.

**add** Gotta ask a stupid tire question. I was looking at the MT Sportsman S/R on Summit, sizes listed like such: 26x8R15, Radial, Blackwall. Is there a conversion somewhere I'm missing? Current size on car is 255 60r-15?

https://tiresize.com/chart/

lots of good tools on this site for seeing what is available in certain sizes, comparing sizes an testing fit of tires and wheel backspace.

Quote from: Scooter on May 08, 2020, 03:07:02 PM
^^ Thanks HP2! Been looking at alternatives and for raised white letter in 15" there is not much. Might even consider buying some blackwall and adding the raised letters myself, seems to be a thing now and many are doing it. Think yellow GOODYEAR letters would look slamming on my black/yellow ride.

**add** Gotta ask a stupid tire question. I was looking at the MT Sportsman S/R on Summit, sizes listed like such: 26x8R15, Radial, Blackwall. Is there a conversion somewhere I'm missing? Current size on car is 255 60r-15?

MT SR don't offer metric conversions anywhere in their literature. You can use a calculator like this one: https://www.crawlpedia.com/tire_size_converter.htm   I can vouch that the MT inch measurements are spot on though

^^^ Thanks both... thought I was missing something.

Sure. The link  gzig5 provided is cool because you can see other sizes that are close to the same specs. However, it can be tough to find all the sizes listed as manufacturers will build tires to fit the largest number of cars at the most profitable segments.

My Challenger is set up with 15" SRs at 26" diameters with 10" front and 12" rear. So that's a 255/55 front and 305/45 rear. I may eventually migrate to 17" or possibly 18" wheels, but that's a while in the future and I my burn through a few sets of 15s before then..

I made it easy on myself and ordered the Hotchkis front and rear sway bar kit along with the Hotchkis leaf spring set up. I think it will do what I'm looking for pretty well. The best thing is I won't be using heavy duty metal leaf springs. Before posting here, that was my plan.

Unfortunately, it will be a while before I can post my impressions of these items as my car is still a shell and a long ways away from road ready. I need them now for all the fitting as I finish up metal work. Looking forward to trying them out though someday.

Thanks for all the great advice!

Nice.. from what I hear it's hard to go wrong with the Hotchkis stuff. Hoping my leafs will get here this week.. planning on doing headers, exhaust and leafs next weekend. I'll let you know results if I get to the leafs.... best laid plans and all that.  :D

It's a good idea to go with a company's "package". Sets things up pretty good for most with the engineering of matching parts done for you. Probably no good for Mitch. Lol.

Just to get Challenger Lover to spend more money...... I have mopar xhd springs. I've read the spring rate is somewhere around 165-175lbs. With regular parts store shocks, the rear end would dance around on road irregularities. In corners sometimes stepping out dramatically. When I put on the qa1 shocks, that no longer happens. I wasn't  crazy about spending $800 on shocks at the time, but I'm glad I did. Good shocks make a big difference.

Quote from: dodj on May 13, 2020, 04:29:09 AM
It's a good idea to go with a company's "package". Sets things up pretty good for most with the engineering of matching parts done for you. Probably no good for Mitch. Lol.

Just to get Challenger Lover to spend more money...... I have mopar xhd springs. I've read the spring rate is somewhere around 165-175lbs. With regular parts store shocks, the rear end would dance around on road irregularities. In corners sometimes stepping out dramatically. When I put on the qa1 shocks, that no longer happens. I wasn't  crazy about spending $800 on shocks at the time, but I'm glad I did. Good shocks make a big difference.

Actually, when I get to that point, I'm going to do it right and get some great shocks. I've had $50 shocks and been happy but I really want to do this car nice and I'm dying to see the difference between a $50 and a $200 shock. I just blew $1600 on the sway bat set, rear leafs and new roof skin. When my credit card stops smoking, I still need to spring for a $1500 AC kit and another $600 for a hydraulic clutch. I need those things next just so I can finish drilling into the metal and start getting the car ready for epoxy. And of course I'll need a $1200 rotisserie for that step unless I fabricate the wooden design I saw on here once.

Whoever thought the classic car restoration hobby could be so expensive?

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 13, 2020, 06:30:16 AM
Whoever thought the classic car restoration hobby could be so expensive?

I remember going to scrap yards back in the early 80's to get parts out of Challengers and Barracudas. Looking back I can't believe the value of a lot of the stuff I passed on.
.

Quote from: dodj on May 13, 2020, 07:26:35 AM

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 13, 2020, 06:30:16 AM
Whoever thought the classic car restoration hobby could be so expensive?

I remember going to scrap yards back in the early 80's to get parts out of Challengers and Barracudas. Looking back I can't believe the value of a lot of the stuff I passed on.
.

Or the stuff I threw away thinking it was worthless. When year one was the only game in town, I'd buy new repop things for my Bee and then toss really nice driver quality stuff because it wasn't perfect. Back then, I had no concept on restoring a part beyond repainting it so much of it went into the trash can.

I have found a few listings for a rear bar kit made by a company named ADDCO that says it is a direct replacement for a stock rear bar assembly.  I can't find a photo of it though; has anyone seen/purchased this particular kit??

:wrenching:

I don't recall where I saw it but I do recall seeing the Addco one somewhere. For my purposes, it just didn't fit the bill but the price was right.

Understood.  Do you recall if it indeed is a direct to the frame bolt-on though?  I know the bushing straps will quite likely be a bit different since the stock ones are "welded" together.
Thanks!

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 14, 2020, 12:02:15 PM
I don't recall where I saw it but I do recall seeing the Addco one somewhere. For my purposes, it just didn't fit the bill but the price was right.

Quote from: Mrbill426 on May 14, 2020, 12:28:28 PM
Understood.  Do you recall if it indeed is a direct to the frame bolt-on though?  I know the bushing straps will quite likely be a bit different since the stock ones are "welded" together.
Thanks!

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 14, 2020, 12:02:15 PM
I don't recall where I saw it but I do recall seeing the Addco one somewhere. For my purposes, it just didn't fit the bill but the price was right.

Someone more knowledgeable would have to weigh in. Once I saw that it required the original sway bar brackets, I moved one since I don't own a set of the original brackets.

Ok.  That is a odd requirement though  :huh: since the original brackets that bolt to the frame have the bar bushings permanently "captured" by welded straps, basically making the bar, bushings and brackets a single component. 

:wrenching:

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 14, 2020, 02:55:07 PM

Quote from: Mrbill426 on May 14, 2020, 12:28:28 PM
Understood.  Do you recall if it indeed is a direct to the frame bolt-on though?  I know the bushing straps will quite likely be a bit different since the stock ones are "welded" together.
Thanks!

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 14, 2020, 12:02:15 PM
I don't recall where I saw it but I do recall seeing the Addco one somewhere. For my purposes, it just didn't fit the bill but the price was right.

Someone more knowledgeable would have to weigh in. Once I saw that it required the original sway bar brackets, I moved one since I don't own a set of the original brackets.

https://www.jegs.com/i/ADDCO/020/261/10002/-1?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5_Pss9K06QIVQ77ACh2IEAc8EAQYASABEgKh1PD_BwE

Here it is at Jegs. I looked it up just now and I recall now why I didn't want this one. It's the frame rail mounted U bolts I didn't care for. On this one, you slide the u bolt into the frame and the threaded parts protrude out. What I was looking for was something that had a separate solid bracket welded to the frame rails.

I had a set up like this once on another car and I at the time, it just seemed a little cheesy in the way it mounted up.

Unless you need it to be factory correct, the factory straps do not need to stay welded with the mounting brackets. You can cut off the existing straps and then weld a plate to the bracket. Locate and drill mounting holes and tap threads for a stud or bolt with hex cutoff. Weld the studs at the back side and then grind down flat. You can then use aftermarket bushing and strap to mount up the sway bar. They usually comes with grease fittings and make future replacement really simple to do.

This is the Hotchkis set up. While more work, it just seems more solid.

Yes, don't go with the thru the frame u-bolt. I have one of those and I ripped the u-bolt through the frame.  :o

Quote from: Mrbill426 on May 14, 2020, 11:27:53 AM
I have found a few listings for a rear bar kit made by a company named ADDCO that says it is a direct replacement for a stock rear bar assembly.  I can't find a photo of it though; has anyone seen/purchased this particular kit??

:wrenching:

I've seen the Addco bars in their online catalog and they say its a direct replacement. Perhaps that means it is shaped similar to original and mounts in the stock location, but they also do not provide pictures of their product for you to confirm that. They do offer it in 3/4 and 7/8 sizes. Except for Firm Feel, every aftermarket rear sway bar I've seen for mopars is an under axle unit. It would be nice to confirm what exactly Addco has.

The key to not ripping out frame rails is to distribute the stress over a large area. A through u-bolt mount concentrates forces into a small area. A large saddle bracket distributes it over a larger area.

Oh hell no; that won't work at all.  :unbelievable: Thanks for the warning! 

Quote from: dodj on May 14, 2020, 06:43:55 PM
Yes, don't go with the thru the frame u-bolt. I have one of those and I ripped the u-bolt through the frame.  :o

I agree I want to see a photo of the actual kit or of one installed.  I hate the "photo coming soon" remarks on online catalog listings... wth heck? :huh:
I have left a message with the manufacture and with Summit to inquire what is what  :ebay:.
Thanks

Quote from: HP2 on May 15, 2020, 08:10:46 AM

I've seen the Addco bars in their online catalog and they say its a direct replacement. Perhaps that means it is shaped similar to original and mounts in the stock location, but they also do not provide pictures of their product for you to confirm that. They do offer it in 3/4 and 7/8 sizes. Except for Firm Feel, every aftermarket rear sway bar I've seen for mopars is an under axle unit. It would be nice to confirm what exactly Addco has.

The key to not ripping out frame rails is to distribute the stress over a large area. A through u-bolt mount concentrates forces into a small area. A large saddle bracket distributes it over a larger area.

Thanks.  If this is all they have to offer I will pass on it too.  That is not a "direct" replacement.

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 14, 2020, 05:53:10 PM
https://www.jegs.com/i/ADDCO/020/261/10002/-1?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5_Pss9K06QIVQ77ACh2IEAc8EAQYASABEgKh1PD_BwE

Here it is at Jegs. I looked it up just now and I recall now why I didn't want this one. It's the frame rail mounted U bolts I didn't care for. On this one, you slide the u bolt into the frame and the threaded parts protrude out. What I was looking for was something that had a separate solid bracket welded to the frame rails.

I had a set up like this once on another car and I at the time, it just seemed a little cheesy in the way it mounted up.

I may go that route if need and I do want it to appear as original as possible.  Thing is the factory bar came off the car as bent and twisted so I NEED a new stand alone bar to replace it.
I don't know what happened with this car but it obviously suffered some trauma along the way  :notsure:

Quote from: 7212Mopar on May 14, 2020, 05:54:59 PM
Unless you need it to be factory correct, the factory straps do not need to stay welded with the mounting brackets. You can cut off the existing straps and then weld a plate to the bracket. Locate and drill mounting holes and tap threads for a stud or bolt with hex cutoff. Weld the studs at the back side and then grind down flat. You can then use aftermarket bushing and strap to mount up the sway bar. They usually comes with grease fittings and make future replacement really simple to do.

I think in your situation where original is key, I'd pick up a nice used one off eBay and be done with it. I've seen them before.

Might just do that  :smile:
Hopefully they are not too difficult to install after the fact and I can move on to other fish in the meantime.
:wrenching:

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on May 15, 2020, 08:50:21 AM
I think in your situation where original is key, I'd pick up a nice used one off eBay and be done with it. I've seen them before.

If stock layout is necessary, contact Firm Feel. Stock style is all they sell. They list the OEM 3/4" on their site but they can make custom sizes if you ask. They will want to talk to you about this to make sure it fits well with teh rest of your set up. They have been building handling mopars since the 1980s and they won't just pass off parts for a sale. They want your car to be safe and perform. They know their stuff.

Mr Dodj says: "It's a good idea to go with a company's "package". Sets things up pretty good for most with the engineering of matching parts done for you. Probably no good for Mitch. Lol."

The fact is that I worked at creating my own "package" that works superbly... unless you'd experience it yourself.. my "package"... you wouldn't know what to compare against.  The package from Hothckis is comparable to my own past experiments.. trial and review, etc.. until I settled on a package more intended for my activities.  In my opinion, the Hotchkis package would not be up to the standard that I settled on many, many years ago... back in the mid-late 1980s... and my limits were following a set of SCCA Solo II E/Street Prepared rules.  My "package" is still 100% street/highway drivable... and of course it favors smooth roads... I avoid rough roads, potholes, railroad tracks, etc... or at least slow down and drive slowly through those areas (no fun driving over rough roads).

IF I wanted to just have a better street/hwy car, and NOT have it competitive for SCCA competition, then I would've stopped the progress.  BUT, the final package that I have is still fine and A-OK for driving on the street/hwy.... in fact it's probably the better package for anyone who truly wants to lean on the more serious side of a total improved handling setup.  If you want to compromise, then just just go softer as Hotchkis has done... good for the street/hwy.... but they could've done better.

@MOPAR MITCH (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/mopar-mitch_365)
Not sure if you took it this way or not...but it was meant as a compliment. You want a better handling set-up than the average person.
:cheers:

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on June 29, 2020, 05:34:20 PM
I ordered the set of Hotchkis sway bars at the same time and they came within days so I don't get it.

Where did you order them from?

Jegs had the best price at the time. They were to be drop shipped from Hotchkis. Jegs is a whole different conversation. Their customer service is horrible and every call means 30+ minutes on hold. I learned my lesson with them.

Maybe some good news... mine arrived today! Did not even hear them hit the patio... opened the front door and they were leaning against the house.  :veryexcited:

I got mine on Saturday! They are nice.

Damn...   

Mine are said to hit by the end of the month, but I bought the complete front/rear kit and the offset bolts for the end links for use of relocated leaf springs..

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on July 06, 2020, 06:25:08 PM
I got mine on Saturday! They are nice.

I honestly didn't object to waiting. What bothered me was the lack of communication with Jegs. And calling Jegs is a nightmare. I don't think I'd ever buy from them again unless their price was ridiculously good. 

Quote from: 70 Challenger Lover on July 08, 2020, 05:56:51 PM
I honestly didn't object to waiting. What bothered me was the lack of communication with Jegs. And calling Jegs is a nightmare. I don't think I'd ever buy from them again unless their price was ridiculously good.

I bought mine from sportcompactwarehouse.com     
cheapest I found it and I had a 3% off code, they don't ding you on shipping or tax..   

I just got my car back on the wheels last weekend, I'm not in a hurry either.. 

Alrighty... so I installed the Hotchicks leafs last night. Total install probably 4.5 hours... not too bad working alone. Earned a black thumb for my efforts.

End result is the rear is lower about 1 inch, was 24 inches from ground to fender lip... now it's 23 inches. So the 1 inch drop is exactly as advertised.

Left front and rear hangar bolts snug and attempted a test drive last night... passenger side tire now rubs fender. I'll need to get that sorted quickly as it's pretty much rendered the car not drive-able.

A few photos:

New ride height and clearance issues.
(https://www.thelightninground.com/filedata/fetch?id=1519&d=1595436776)

Old vs. New
(https://www.thelightninground.com/filedata/fetch?id=1520&d=1595436803)

(https://www.thelightninground.com/filedata/fetch?id=1522&d=1595436838)

(https://www.thelightninground.com/filedata/fetch?id=1523&d=1595436871)

WTH  :huh:
Are they the correct springs for the car; or one is not backwards??

Quote from: Scooter on July 22, 2020, 09:57:15 AM
Alrighty... so I installed the Hotchicks leafs last night. Total install probably 4.5 hours... not too bad working alone. Earned a black thumb for my efforts.

End result is the rear is lower about 1 inch, was 24 inches from ground to fender lip... now it's 23 inches. So the 1 inch drop is exactly as advertised.

Left front and rear hangar bolts snug and attempted a test drive last night... passenger side tire now rubs fender. I'll need to get that sorted quickly as it's pretty much rendered the car not drive-able.

A few photos:

New ride height and clearance issues.
(https://www.thelightninground.com/filedata/fetch?id=1519&d=1595436776)

Old vs. New
(https://www.thelightninground.com/filedata/fetch?id=1520&d=1595436803)

(https://www.thelightninground.com/filedata/fetch?id=1522&d=1595436838)

(https://www.thelightninground.com/filedata/fetch?id=1523&d=1595436871)

I haven't put my Hotchkis springs in yet as I'm still finishing up the quarters. Maybe I should stop though and test fit them. The photos make it seem like the whole axle is no longer centered in the wheel well opening. Is that what's going on or just a weird camera angle make it seem that way?

I have wondered if I will be happy with the height but my thought on that is I could always use the other hangers to bring it up a little. Unless they are a different spring width. I'll have to check that.

They are the correct kit... backwards? I've made some mistakes before but these only go on one way... lol.

Quote from: Scooter on July 22, 2020, 12:58:34 PM
They are the correct kit... backwards? I've made some mistakes before but these only go on one way... lol.

Did the whole rear end move back from where it was before. Is you transmission slip yoke pulled back from where it was before.

Also with the hotchkis drop front hanger you need to recheck pinion angle. Really with about any spring change.

When I did my A-body Barracuda, I need to add a wedges to adjust pinion angle with stock front hangers. With the dropped hangers, I would have needed to add a lot. Now that was an Abody. But still, you need to check that.

Ok.  Something is way off (duh).  Might be the angle of the shot but the old and new springs look to be different lengths.  The way the shot of the car looks it appears the the shackle is not installed.  How is the wheel base compared left to right?

Quote from: Scooter on July 22, 2020, 12:58:34 PM
They are the correct kit... backwards? I've made some mistakes before but these only go on one way... lol.

They do make shims for the pinion angle. I finished late last night and will check the other suggestions later today. Think the clearance at the wheel well issue is just a direct result of the car sitting 1 inch lower in the rear.

Quote from: Scooter on July 22, 2020, 03:22:19 PM
They do make shims for the pinion angle. I finished late last night and will check the other suggestions later today. Think the clearance at the wheel well issue is just a direct result of the car sitting 1 inch lower in the rear.

NO! You have something wrong. The wheel is not centered in the wheel well. Is the pin in the saddle on the rear end?

Quote from: JonH on July 22, 2020, 05:33:13 PM

Quote from: Scooter on July 22, 2020, 03:22:19 PM
They do make shims for the pinion angle. I finished late last night and will check the other suggestions later today. Think the clearance at the wheel well issue is just a direct result of the car sitting 1 inch lower in the rear.

NO! You have something wrong. The wheel is not centered in the wheel well. Is the pin in the saddle on the rear end?

Pin is in the saddle on both sides. Wheel looks to be in same location as before.. just an inch higher into the wheel well.

How about straight on side pictures of each side of the car instead of 3/4 angles.  Something is definitely off by looking at that one photo.

Quote from: Mrbill426 on July 22, 2020, 06:59:40 PM
How about straight on side pictures of each side of the car instead of 3/4 angles.  Something is definitely off by looking at that one photo.

Will do.. car is in garage and tight space is why I take angle shots.

I agree pictures look like the axle is not centered and moved back. May be shipped you the wrong parts. Hotchkis known to do that on their torsion bars

I think it is camera angles impacting our views.  A straight side view would be more telling. The springs appear identical in length if you look at the offset of the main eye and locator pin from spring to spring.

Regarding side to side location of the axle, don't forget  in OEM form these cars had very loose tolerances for clearance and often are not always equal side to side and if any quarter panel work has been done to the car, these clearances can be further altered. I'd also add that I have seen cars that have had front bushings pressed in that were not centered in the spring eye.  If this was deliberately done to both eyes, then the axle can be offset a minor amount.

 :iagree:

I suppose it could be the angle because it looks like you couldn't even slide your finger between the tire and the rear of the wheel well while there is tons of room up forward.  :huh:

Quote from: HP2 on July 23, 2020, 07:00:13 AM
I think it is camera angles impacting our views.  A straight side view would be more telling. The springs appear identical in length if you look at the offset of the main eye and locator pin from spring to spring.

Regarding side to side location of the axle, don't forget  in OEM form these cars had very loose tolerances for clearance and often are not always equal side to side and if any quarter panel work has been done to the car, these clearances can be further altered. I'd also add that I have seen cars that have had front bushings pressed in that were not centered in the spring eye.  If this was deliberately done to both eyes, then the axle can be offset a minor amount.

Better photo:

(https://www.thelightninground.com/filedata/fetch?id=1530&d=1595538446)

Compared to some photos when I purchased the car and the wheel looks to be in the same location. I "massaged" the small area of the inner fender lip that was rubbing last night and the rubbing seems to be cured.  :D

That photo angle does give a much better idea of how the tire sits in the wheel well. I like it. Good to know too because I am still in the process of putting new quarters on now so I might want to mock it all up with the tires I hope to run. It would be easy for me to create a little clearance at the lip opening now before everything is painted.

Huge difference when you get the right angle. That first pic made it look way out of wack!

That looks much better at that angle. I see the wheels are 255/60/15s. Are they on 8" rims?
Strange you have rubbing issues.
My setup is 275/1615s on 8.5 rims and everything clears. Inside and outside with no clearancing.

How is the gap spacing on other side? Are they somewhat the same?

Quote from: YellowThumper on July 28, 2020, 09:06:45 AM
That looks much better at that angle. I see the wheels are 255/60/15s. Are they on 8" rims?
Strange you have rubbing issues.
My setup is 275/1615s on 8.5 rims and everything clears. Inside and outside with no clearancing.

How is the gap spacing on other side? Are they somewhat the same?

I have a bit more spacing on the drivers side, no rubbing issues there. Not sure what the size/backspacing the 15 inch rims are, they were on the car when purchased. But I do have space available interior toward the leafspring. Maybe correct with a new set of rims?

**edit**
Just dug through the stack of receipts that cam wit hthe car... specs on the rear rim:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wvi-56-5812042 (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wvi-56-5812042)

Wheel Diameter:15 in.
Wheel Width (in):8.000 in.
Wheel Bolt Pattern (app):5 x 114.3mm
5 x 4 1/2 in.
Wheel Material:Steel
TPMS Sensor Compatible:No
Primary Wheel Color:Silver
Wheel Finish:Gloss
Manufacturers Wheel Series:Wheel Vintiques 56 Series
Backspacing (in):4.500 in.


think an 8.5 would fix?

Quote from: YellowThumper on July 28, 2020, 03:50:04 PM
Not 100% versed on wheels. IIRC. 4.5 back spaced would push the wheel outward from midpoint by 1/2 inch.
The ones I showing with mine are custom built. 8.5 (tire mounting lip to lip). The mounting face to outer tire mounting is 3.75".
4.75" of rim is inwards. I believe mine would be considered a negative offset.
Hopefully someone in the know can chime in for confirmation.

Thanks for the info, very helpful.

Tire /rim size and backspacing is a bit confusing to me as well.

This rim manufacturer does not offer a 8.5 inch rim.. jumps from 8 to 10 inches. Options in 10 inch:

Wheel, Chrysler Rallye, Steel, Silver, 15 in.x 10 in., 5 x 4.5 in. Bolt Circle, 5 in. Backspace, Each

Wheel, Chrysler Rallye, Steel, Silver, 15 in.x 10 in., 5 x 4.5 in. Bolt Circle, 5.5 in. Backspace, Each

Don't know if there's enough space for a 10 inch rim.. But it sure looks like I have enough room (an an inch or two)  toward the leaf springs.

8" wheel is plenty for the most part. Can still run 275s with no issue. Have seen 295s on 8" rims but in my opinion they start to look stuffed.
Mine take up all space to the inside. Wheels are close to leaf springs but never rub.

4.5" is a standard ebody back spacing.  :alan2cents:

More back spacing would move it in towards the springs. Tough to add back spacing though. Easier to take it away. I would look at clearancing the wheel lip.

Quote from: dodj on July 29, 2020, 07:43:57 AM
4.5" is a standard ebody back spacing.  :alan2cents:

More back spacing would move it in towards the springs. Tough to add back spacing though. Easier to take it away. I would look at clearancing the wheel lip.

Yes, also agree that is standard.
1/2" more backspace from center. However when talking offset. Positive offset is same as more backspace.

Because of the rubbing. I questioned if op's rims have the offset incorrect direction.
Pic for comparisons.

End of the day. Removal and measurement of wheel will answer any question.
Obviously clearancing can be done. But for me it would not be an option. We have huge wheelwells in comparison to most of the era.

Quote from: YellowThumper on July 29, 2020, 08:16:06 AM
We have huge wheelwells in comparison to most of the era.

For sure. I have 315's in my non modified wheel wells.
I just figured, he has bought the rims. You can't move a rim inwards, so... Clearancing is all that is left... I think?  :dunno:

I've got about 1.25 inches from the tire to the leaf on both sides. Imagine I could move inward and inch without issue as the distance from the tire to the leaf spring never changes unlike the distance from the tire to the wheelwell which moves with body roll etc.

Quote from: Scooter on July 29, 2020, 03:05:45 PM
I've got about 1.25 inches from the tire to the leaf on both sides. Imagine I could move inward and inch without issue as the distance from the tire to the leaf spring never changes unlike the distance from the tire to the wheelwell which moves with body roll etc.

Tire also deflects spring side too. More so near the bottom. Also more so with 15" tires than bigger say 18"   :alan2cents:

Quote from: Brads70 on July 29, 2020, 03:13:12 PM

Quote from: Scooter on July 29, 2020, 03:05:45 PM
I've got about 1.25 inches from the tire to the leaf on both sides. Imagine I could move inward and inch without issue as the distance from the tire to the leaf spring never changes unlike the distance from the tire to the wheelwell which moves with body roll etc.

Tire also deflects spring side too. More so near the bottom. Also more so with 15" tires than bigger say 18"   :alan2cents:

^^ True that.. I'd think there would be a lot less deflection on the rear tire as the drive angle does not change as radically as the front. 1/2 in extra backspace would probably do the trick for me, split the difference and still leave me with a good 3/4 inch from the leaf. That is if I can locate a similar wheel with 5 inch backspace.

Quote from: Scooter on July 29, 2020, 03:38:08 PM

Quote from: Brads70 on July 29, 2020, 03:13:12 PM

Quote from: Scooter on July 29, 2020, 03:05:45 PM
I've got about 1.25 inches from the tire to the leaf on both sides. Imagine I could move inward and inch without issue as the distance from the tire to the leaf spring never changes unlike the distance from the tire to the wheelwell which moves with body roll etc.

Tire also deflects spring side too. More so near the bottom. Also more so with 15" tires than bigger say 18"   :alan2cents:

^^ True that.. I'd think there would be a lot less deflection on the rear tire as the drive angle does not change as radically as the front. 1/2 in extra backspace would probably do the trick for me, split the difference and still leave me with a good 3/4 inch from the leaf. That is if I can locate a similar wheel with 5 inch backspace.

Agree there is deflection. But up top there is body role to contend with also.