Seller on ebay selling COMPLETE numbers for an EB5 AAR Cuda:
*title
*cut out cowl with numbers
* Both fender tags
* complete rad support
*Dash pad with VIN tag
He has the last 6 covered, but appears to be all legit as far as numbers go.
This has the making of a fraudulent reappearance of this AAR down the road as a re body.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/70-AAR-Cuda-4-Speed-Dash-Parts-only-No-Body-Will-Ship-Via-Greyhound-Bus-Termina/163608555652?hash=item2617d47084:g:qo4AAOSw9A5ck5bH
:foul: appears to from a rust bucket of an AAR. :Stirring: The guy was more than likely planed on doing a re-body himself, and now figures he will aide someone else in a fraud. :alan2cents:
I don't consider rebodying a fraud if no factory issued numbers are tampered with, modified or changed in any way. It's been 50 years. This comes up all the time. Cars rot out or get crashed and need new metal. To me, stamping blocks and transmissions, cowles and core supports to make your car (which might be missing some of these factory numbers) is a crime and has intent to mislead people. You might be shocked to hear how many restored muscle cars (including dozens of high profile Mopars) are nearly all AMD or new bodied or a mix of both. If I were to purchase a Mopar and I found out the donar unibody structure was a clean 318 car structure but was done correctly and the numbers on it are from a real deal rare machine that did actually exist,.... and the seller made me aware of this....it really wouldn't bother me.
I know and have photos of the full vin and tags for that AAR. At least it really did exist. I really do think there should be a place where Mopars that are re-born from real cars that were ruined can be accepted. Especially with all the reproduction metal available to bring these cars back. Geez.... before you know it, everyone that puts there cowl and core support numbers back on their replacement AMD panels because of rot or an accident will be considered trying to fool somebody or scam someone. 50 years now people. Its just metal.... relax. If you know what you're looking at, you'll know if someone is trying to screw you. Ask questions, seek professional asssistance if you're not sure. Changed and tampered with numbers and codes are more important to me. Fake buildsheets and tags... that is fraud. New metal to replace wasted stuff but numbers 100% legit..... ok in my book. You know what they say about opinions though. Hope my feelings on this topic don't upset people.... it's not meant to.
And no, I do not know the seller of those AAR tags.
I see your point. Tough call though.
Could it be that folks who get upset about "rebodied" cars are the same folks who were fortunate enough to have found an original car with documentation? Deceit is one thing but sheet metal from AMD or a donor car used to put another MOPAR back on the road is not being dishonest unless the seller intends to pass the vehicle off as a more rare version. Would you change the stampings, VIN # on a 440 Six-Pack R/T to represent a 318, column shifted automatic? Nah.
Quote from: 6Pack70 on January 13, 2020, 04:19:18 PM
I really do think there should be a place where Mopars that are re-born from real cars that were ruined can be accepted. Especially with all the reproduction metal available to bring these cars back. Geez.... before you know it, everyone that puts there cowl and core support numbers back on their replacement AMD panels because of rot or an accident will be considered trying to fool somebody or scam someone. 50 years now people. Its just metal.... relax. If you know what you're looking at, you'll know if someone is trying to screw you. Ask questions, seek professional asssistance if you're not sure. Changed and tampered with numbers and codes are more important to me. Fake buildsheets and tags... that is fraud. New metal to replace wasted stuff but numbers 100% legit..... ok in my book.
I agree with 6pack70 100%. At least this AAR exists, it can be rebuilt.
Quote from: Plumcrazzy on January 13, 2020, 05:37:44 PM
Could it be that folks who get upset about "rebodied" cars are the same folks who were fortunate enough to have found an original car with documentation? Deceit is one thing but sheet metal from AMD or a donor car used to put another MOPAR back on the road is not being dishonest unless the seller intends to pass the vehicle off as a more rare version. Would you change the stampings, VIN # on a 440 Six-Pack R/T to represent a 318, column shifted automatic? Nah.
I agree and I'm sure guys who posess original metal, highly documented examples of rare Mopars might think that a car using a donor body to rebuild it from complete rot out, might cut into the value of their cars. A donar unibody structure does not always get used to take a shortcut in a restoration, it might just be absolutely necessary to complete the task. A car requiring this type of work to complete should stand proud...but in a completely different class than a true original metal, never rusted or wrecked car. It should be priced accordingly. I would always, pay a premium for an unmolested car that had a great restoration not needing every single piece of steel on it. Not for a car that has all new metal and or the use of a donor unibody. I do believe these cars should have a place in our hobby thpugh.... as long as their numbers have not been modified in any way. Say you have a very rare and desirable Mopar that is completely numbers matching including engine, trans... with buildsheets, fender tags and all the correct original body stampings, but it was in a bad fire, or it sat and rotted out every pan, frame rail, cowl everything....just a real POS.... but all there. Is it a felony or are you a crook for calling AMD and ordering everything they make to build it's body into a safe roadworthy and enjoyable machine again. Me personally.... I dont think so. As long as those numbers are not changed.
Quote from: 6Pack70 on January 13, 2020, 04:19:18 PM
I know and have photos of the full vin and tags for that AAR. At least it really did exist.
Well, we sure would like to see them. :popcorn:
WOW...this is my dream car, a blue on blue four speed AAR....might have a little problem importing it into Canada though... :crying: :haha:
I'm with 6Pack70 ...it's worth bringing this one back.... :twothumbsup:
The order number is not covered on the vin tag. When these items were listed the very first time, I right clicked and saved the vin number to my home computer. Then, like many people do, he covered the last six for privacy. So I dont get phonecalls from some guy screaming I violated his privacy, I'm gonna choose to not post the full vin for now. I think if he was smart he would let people know the full vin, but that's his decision not mine. I still think his price is a bit high even for a cool AAR like that.
Too bad he doesn't have the engine and transmission.
The issue here which has been addressed ad nauseam is that when you remove the dash VIN and replace it onto another vehicle from which it was not born with, that is illegal. Plain and simple. I don't wish to argue this fact, just stating what it is; fact.
That's exactly what may happen with these parts and paperwork, as unless the seller has the rest of the body to restore; which I doubt as the cowl numbers and rad support have been cut off, these AAR specific pieces will find their way onto another Barracauda/Cuda body and be passed off to someone not in the know.
I think I'd feel more than a little uneasy buying just some numbers for an AAR from some guy on ebay, but I do also agree with 6Pack70 and think what he said is pretty spot-on regarding rebodies. As long as you're not creating something that wasn't already there in the first place.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: ricomondo on January 13, 2020, 08:05:00 PM
The issue here which has been addressed ad nauseam is that when you remove the dash VIN and replace it onto another vehicle from which it was not born with, that is illegal. Plain and simple. I don't wish to argue this fact, just stating what it is; fact.
That's exactly what may happen with these parts and paperwork, as unless the seller has the rest of the body to restore; which I doubt as the cowl numbers and rad support have been cut off, these AAR specific pieces will find their way onto another Barracauda/Cuda body and be passed off to someone not in the know.
8
Please trust me when I say I do not wish to argue the point either and I do see the plain and simple also. However, technically, the very second that any enthusiast touches those vin rivets on that dash plate, you are doing something illegal. With that said, do you know how many Mopar guys that absolutely love their cars should also have criminal records right now? Rivets and dry transfer decals are being sold legally to restore your dash's vin tag but in order to perform a tag restoration correctly, you need to commit a crime by grinding the old original rivets off from the bottom. In my opinion, there are far more enthusiasts trying to restore for their own pleasure than scumbags trying to pull a fast one and the restoration market caters to the restorer and trys to help. Yes, its unfortunate that people will try tp scam you everywhere in every aspect of your life. People know when to hang up the phone when Nigeria is calling. When placing an order with AMD, should I stop at some point and not order too much replacement metal because I might be going to far. My project might be considered a rebody and if I reinstall my dash with vin plate into that long list of metal, I'm committing a crime? If yes, I'll say it again, alot of musclecar enthusiasts should be in jail for making their dream cars live again. This topic will always be a glass half empty deal until people consider New Bodied musclecars sort of a class of their own. Still valuable.... but not nearly as valuable as a true documented original bodied car.
6 pack when you replace the dash pad in your E body you have no choice but to remove the rivets. its fact.
most of us purchase the rosette rivets. the one who use sheet metal screws is what gets me.
Add the fact that every state is different as well. I was watching Fantom Works. I believe they are in West Virginia. A guy bought a 57 Chevy from a museum. After they got the car, they decided it was too rusted to repair. So, they bought a new body and re-bodied it. Right there on tv. He said he called his DMV and they said he could remove the vin number from the rusted body and place it on the new body " as long as he did not disturb the actual numbers stamped on the body" . He made a big deal to his welding tech" don't disturb the numbers". Likewise I read an article about a guy up north doing the same thing to a 69 Camaro. Only he had to change the numbers in front of the a LEO. All legal in those states. Maybe the difference is you are using a NEW body with no numbers at all.
I once got a phone call from a state trooper investigating an acquaintance of mine in Texas. I cut ties with him when I realized he was a crook. I told the trooper of three cars he had tried to sell me that were re bodied or just flat stolen and I wanted nothing to do with him and had not for several years. As far as I know, nothing happened to the guy. I did ask the trooper if you had a car like an ebody with the vin tag on the removable pad, how would could restore the pad back to original. He said removing the vin rivets was felony and you had to just recover the dashpad with the vin tag in place. NO OPTIONS. My reply was, " good thing my dash pad is in nice shape and doesn't need restoring"!
The thing that kills me is that people put more emphasis on a matching number drivetrain than a original rust free drive train. I guess there are just more rusty cars with drive trains intact than there are really nice rust free bodies.
It's a very touchy subject. Some people it bothers, some could care less. It also depends on what caliber Mopar you are looking to own....and how much money you're willing to part with. What kills me is people (the rebody police) thinking every Mopar that used a donor unibody and or 99% AMD metal to bring it back is an outcast of some sort. A car that was built to decieve. What a joke. Very close minded people. Yes, I will agree, some select few will attempt to decieve people to make the almighty dollar.... but certainly not everyone. If you think someone is trying to pull a fast one on you.... walk away and keep shopping. I cant help but stress my opinion. If done nicely, and no numbers were changed or tampered with to better the car in any way..... use whatever metal available to get an accurate representation of that once built car back on the road. Trust me.... if you do your homework, you'll find that many cars already exist like this. I'm happy that they are out there being enjoyed. (And their original numbers never changed).
I mostly agree with everything said.
However not posting the numbers helps this person pull the covers over someone's eyes. This does not help anyone except the person who will commit the fraud.
Information like vin numbers is public property once it is posted on the net. Of which is was already posted.
I think that the law (that says you can't remove a VIN tag) was put into place strictly to prevent crooks from committing fraud. The lawmakers weren't gonna put a clause in there that says "... unless you're just trying to restore a dash, or part of the car that is damaged / rusty...". They're just not gonna take the time to do that in my opinion. Therefore, there has to be an exception to the rule just as there are exceptions to most every rule out there. You can't properly restore a dash pad with the VIN tag still on it. I think ya gotta take the law with a grain of salt. Its the same old story. One person commits fraud, and then the rest of the good honest people in the world aren't allowed to restore their dashes or their rusty cars. It's BS. Don't commit fraud and don't be a scumbag and everyone is gonna be ok.
Point of clarification on the dash VIN removal for restoration that everyone misses.
It is not illegal to remove VIN, it's done all the time by body shops.
When you read the law, it clearly states "with the intent to commit fraud".
This part is always overlooked.
I also have no issue with that car being brought back to life.
When you can buy and replace all the sheet metal, why not.
If this car is bought and restored there will always be a buyer for it. It will not hold the same value as an original paneled, number matching AAR, but it will have value. There's an arse for every seat.
I always refer back to the FC7 1971 HEMICUDA convertible that was built from a few original parts....it still has value, just not as much as the other examples....I think the last time it sold was like $1.2 million or something, when the others are in the $3 million range :dunno:
Quote from: Mr Lee on January 14, 2020, 07:07:11 AM
I think that the law (that says you can't remove a VIN tag) was put into place strictly to prevent crooks from committing fraud. The lawmakers weren't gonna put a clause in there that says "... unless you're just trying to restore a dash, or part of the car that is damaged / rusty...". They're just not gonna take the time to do that in my opinion. Therefore, there has to be an exception to the rule just as there are exceptions to most every rule out there. You can't properly restore a dash pad with the VIN tag still on it. I think ya gotta take the law with a grain of salt. Its the same old story. One person commits fraud, and then the rest of the good honest people in the world aren't allowed to restore their dashes or their rusty cars. It's BS. Don't commit fraud and don't be a scumbag and everyone is gonna be ok.
I agree. But I made a point to ask a fellow who who interpreted the law and enforced it just to find out what he thought. A judge might see differently if you were a auto restorer. Some cops would give their own momma a ticket.
20 years ago I sent my dash pad to Just Dashes in California to have it recovered. They told me they wouldn't except it unless I took the vin plate off. I did and riveted it back on when I got the dash pad back. They never told me removing the vin plate was illegal. Sometimes a car is so bad you need to replace everything except the radiator cap. There shouldn't be anything wrong with that as long as you tell the buyer what was done and not pass it off as all original sheet metal. Probably 90% of my car has been replaced. At car shows people ask me all the time if my car is original, I tell them "all the parts are originally off some car"
Quote from: Joegrapes on January 14, 2020, 03:52:29 PM
20 years ago I sent my dash pad to Just Dashes in California to have it recovered. They told me they wouldn't except it unless I took the vin plate off. I did and riveted it back on when I got the dash pad back. They never told me removing the vin plate was illegal. Sometimes a car is so bad you need to replace everything except the radiator cap. There shouldn't be anything wrong with that as long as you tell the buyer what was done and not pass it off as all original sheet metal. Probably 90% of my car has been replaced. At car shows people ask me all the time if my car is original, I tell them "all the parts are originally off some car"
the issue isn't that YOU don't disclose it, it's seller # 2, 3, 4 or whoever that conveniently forgets to mention that person #1 replaced 50-99% of the car (or whatever the case may be) and gets top$$. this is THE biggest issue as far as I'm concerned. I don't necessarily care if a car was totally rebuilt, but some folks are shelling out big $$$ for cars they think are "as built original", but someone in the past re-bodied it
Yep, I couldn't agree with you more. People have restored cars sitting in their garages, showrooms, man caves.. whatever that are not 100 % the original body. This is where an expert inspection would come in quite handy if you do not trust your own judgment. These cars have more new panels and sections from other cars than ever before and it continues every day. Bottom line is, if you're prepared to spend those big bucks on a musclecar, then you should be smart enough to have it inspected and verified also. Ask questions.... do not just drink and have a bidding war at an auction. You will almost always lose in the end.
Here's a hypothetical question. Lets say this AAR gets a real nice quality restoration, and other then the fact the engine and transmission numbers still don't match....it's basically impossible for any potential buyer to know what it started out as. Then lets say the builder sells it and is 100% up front with how it was created...Buyer number 1 is happy, loves the car....for a while...then as years pass and buyers #2,3, 4 etc.. the story gets lost.
Then 8-10 years from now buyer #5 comes along...Does a thorough inspection and finds no evidence of the re-construction from it's past...The car still is not numbers matching, but is a great colour, 4 speed , original tags etc...so he pays the current market value...
WHAT'S THE HARM IN THAT ? :dunno:
These are just cars.... Another one getting saved, in my opinion, is ALWAYS a good thing. :alan2cents:
As long as we are on the subject of hypotheticals, what if a rare car got wrecked years ago, and later someone built and titled a car using the VIN, fender tag, and number cut out of the cowl. Someone else had the engine and trans and built and titled a car based on the #s drivetrain.
So now there are 2 beautiful restored cars out there with the same VIN.
Which fraudulent car, the NOM or the #s matching one, would you be more proud to own? :notsure:
The one with the original vin from the dash, the original steel stamped fender tag and the body stampings. Buildsheets were not meant for us to find, they were meant to be used as a guide to build a car....and thrown away. I can honestly say, I've never heard of anyone even trying to build a car from a numbers engine and trans and a buildsheet. New York DMV requires a pencil rubbing of the cars original dash vin number to get a title.
Some years back Galen Govier hinted in a magazine column he was writing at the time that the hypothetical situation I brought up, had happened with a deceased hemi car and there might be 2 out there now miraculously risen from the grave.
That would suck trying to untie that knot and figure out who owns the original car. That could have been made up too. There isn't a Mopar guy or girl on this forum that hasn't heard a Mopar story... that turned out to be untrue. Many of the tall tales that I hear today come from people making stuff up in an effort to keep buyers away from cars they know about. Lol
Quote from: BFM_Cuda on January 13, 2020, 05:39:17 PM
Quote from: 6Pack70 on January 13, 2020, 04:19:18 PM
I really do think there should be a place where Mopars that are re-born from real cars that were ruined can be accepted. Especially with all the reproduction metal available to bring these cars back. Geez.... before you know it, everyone that puts there cowl and core support numbers back on their replacement AMD panels because of rot or an accident will be considered trying to fool somebody or scam someone. 50 years now people. Its just metal.... relax. If you know what you're looking at, you'll know if someone is trying to screw you. Ask questions, seek professional asssistance if you're not sure. Changed and tampered with numbers and codes are more important to me. Fake buildsheets and tags... that is fraud. New metal to replace wasted stuff but numbers 100% legit..... ok in my book.
I agree with 6pack70 100%. At least this AAR exists, it can be rebuilt.
The seller clearly states that he only has those key items, the rest was crushed years ago. There is nothing to save, the car is long gone. If you want to create a clone and enjoy it, just do that! I suppose whoever buys this and makes a 318 car into an AAR will surely disclose the fact that it's really a 318 car with AAR numbers. It would be fraud, in my opinion.
Another Hypothetical
A nice 318 Barracuda is built as a AAR tribute with all correct mods including TA block, heads etc, necessary to pass as an AAR except it retains the 318 VIN info. Everyone knows it's still the 318 car and it is priced accordingly.
Another actual AAR gets thrashed hard and early on the Engine is blown and any number of other things and now it's still solid but engine, tranny and rear end are gone. It is also restored with correct block heads etc. It's worth more than the 318 car right?
Now take the above 318 car cut out the original VIN stampings on cowl and support and replace with $7000 e-bay stampings along with VIN and data plates. My understanding is a few here wouldn't call transferring the numbers as fraud, but it would be if they just stamped new ones themselves. Why should this newly transformed 318 car be worth any more after transfer of these real pieces from a no longer existing car. Why would anyone that knows that the numbers were transferred be willing to pay more today than yesterday with 318 VIN?
I see no possible reason that anyone would pay $7000 for these items without some intent at fraud.
Quote from: cuda dad on January 14, 2020, 09:15:23 PM
Quote from: BFM_Cuda on January 13, 2020, 05:39:17 PM
Quote from: 6Pack70 on January 13, 2020, 04:19:18 PM
I really do think there should be a place where Mopars that are re-born from real cars that were ruined can be accepted. Especially with all the reproduction metal available to bring these cars back. Geez.... before you know it, everyone that puts there cowl and core support numbers back on their replacement AMD panels because of rot or an accident will be considered trying to fool somebody or scam someone. 50 years now people. Its just metal.... relax. If you know what you're looking at, you'll know if someone is trying to screw you. Ask questions, seek professional asssistance if you're not sure. Changed and tampered with numbers and codes are more important to me. Fake buildsheets and tags... that is fraud. New metal to replace wasted stuff but numbers 100% legit..... ok in my book.
I agree with 6pack70 100%. At least this AAR exists, it can be rebuilt.
The seller clearly states that he only has those key items, the rest was crushed years ago. There is nothing to save, the car is long gone. If you want to create a clone and enjoy it, just do that! I suppose whoever buys this and makes a 318 car into an AAR will surely disclose the fact that it's really a 318 car with AAR numbers. It would be fraud, in my opinion.
So, is it fraud in your opinion that a guy can build a car out of those items or fraud in your opinion because the builder might choose not to disclose how it was built? This topic has been on more forums for so many years now, anyone who looks at spending money on a musclecar these days better do their homework and maybe hook up with an expert to verify what you're looking at. The days are gone where you can just take people's word thay their car hasn't had a ton of metal replaced. I'm not saying that everyone selling a Cuda should be considered a crook until proven otherwise. There are really good guys in this hobby that are very honest too. Not everything is built with the intent to decieve. Some guys build cars to really accurately represent.... and they will yell you how they did it and why.
Quote from: JH27N0B on January 14, 2020, 08:51:50 PM
Some years back Galen Govier hinted in a magazine column he was writing at the time that the hypothetical situation I brought up, had happened with a deceased hemi car and there might be 2 out there now miraculously risen from the grave.
it's not hypothetical - it's real, but the car is a LEMANS raced GT40
there are now 2 cars with the same VIN, one in Europe & one in the US with some original components in each car - both claiming the same LEMANS history
& similar happenings more recently with a hemi'cuda, as rumor has it one built around a copy of the broadcast sheet & sold out of country to avoid "ISSUES"
also, a few long gone known cars have been resurrected with 0% of the original car existing in the current 6 or 7-figure offering :takemymoney:
Quote from: 6Pack70 on January 14, 2020, 10:02:30 PM
So, is it fraud in your opinion that a guy can build a car out of those items or fraud in your opinion because the builder might choose not to disclose how it was built? This topic has been on more forums for so many years now, anyone who looks at spending money on a musclecar these days better do their homework and maybe hook up with an expert to verify what you're looking at. The days are gone where you can just take people's word thay their car hasn't had a ton of metal replaced. I'm not saying that everyone selling a Cuda should be considered a crook until proven otherwise. There are really good guys in this hobby that are very honest too. Not everything is built with the intent to deceive. Some guys build cars to really accurately represent.... and they will yell you how they did it and why.
To answer your question, I would consider it fraud to apply the numbers to a different car, period.
Let's say you have a nice BH27 car. There are quite a few of them nicely restored and some with different powertrains yet still retaining the BH27G VIN for instance. You bought it because you liked it and can tell that it is represented as what it really is. On the other hand lets say that the previous owner obtained numbers from a destroyed Hemi Car and apply them to this car during the restoration, and then titled it as such. Does that seem legit? To begin calling this BH27G car a BS27R just because you acquired some tags? This is why you need an expert to inspect and also why it is a crime (at least in California).
I might add that just because someone got away with it in the past, it doesn't make it right.
Here are a couple of links that may be helpful.
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&division=4.&title=&part=&chapter=3.&article=
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&division=4.&title=&part=&chapter=3.5.&article=
Final post from me on this
I only got involved in this because I would not want to see someone unknowingly do the wrong thing or worse yet, see someone get burned.
Right or wrong, legal or illegal, these cars are on our midst and they should have their own category. Since they have tags that were lifted from a different car that presumably no longer exists, I think they should be called GHOST CARS.
We could start a new thread to list them in. Start with the AAR with the A/C firewall.
Goodnight!
...and this is why this topic will never be solved....it's been a spirited conversation for decades, and everybody's opinion is valid and should be recognised as such. :drinkingbud:
My :alan2cents:
Anything "man made" can be made again,if you have the money, time and talent. I worked as a tech inspector for 25 years at a circle track. In an effort to limit money being spent on engines they came out with a sealed crate engine from GM . It has "special" break off bolts on the intake, heads and timing cover. The track owner was all proud and confident that no one could cheat with these engines. Me being the tech inspector laughed and said give me an hour and I'll produce one of these bolts for you. He was shocked. A few months later the entire bolt kit was available on E-Bay LOL. In addition,with access to an EDM machine anyone can make any casting numbers you want. Again "ANYTHING" MAN MADE CAN BE REPRODUCED, just depends on how determined you are. Making rules that you can't enforce is futile.
As technology advances, consider other man made products that can be reproduced, such as firearms? Not too hard to make them with or without serial numbers?
Just need a mill and a lathe and almost anything can be reproduced.
Laws like padlocks are just there to keep honest people honest. I'd guess the "intent" of laws is to prevent chop shops from stealing cars and reworking the numbers to get a "clean title" again. Even if these cars had the vin tags welded to the chassis it can simply be done again. Again "Anything man made can be made again"
Same with laws regarding rebodies. It's futile to make a law that says you can't remove the rivets on dash tags. Especially when it's ok in some states/country's and not others. I'd argue/guess 95% of the ebodies on the road have had their dash pads replaced.
None of these cars are "original" Replace a wheel bearing or a light bulb and it's not original anymore. So who gets to decide at what point, how many parts can be replaced before it's not "original" in the sight of the "original police" or the rebody police" Certainly not a small group of self proclaimed "experts" Anyone can "be bought"
Take Steve Juliano's stolen Mod Top 'Cuda, who's to say it hasn't been rebodied by now. (I hope not, that is/was a sweet car) or parted out and 20 years from now someone will recreate it? Only the value will prevent someone from doing so. Meaning is the effort to do so worth the payoff.
I'd say as long as your not making a new car that never existed before (or two of the same car)
then have at it , as there is not now or has ever been , or ever will be, a fool proof way to police anything otherwise. Don't make rules or laws that are unenforceable. It's a waste of resources.
As these cars get more valuable as time marches on this perceived problem will only get worse.
Buying one of these cars as an investment based on the "numbers stamped on it" certainly has it's "high stakes", and the chances are pretty high that almost none of them are "original"
Maybe some people should spend more time driving/enjoying these cars as they were meant to do, and not spending so much time looking at the vin tag numbers? IMO , life is too short for that game? If your more concerned with the numbers stamped on your car instead of driving it it..... well your not "doing it right". Your missing out dude! :burnout:
Quote from: Katfish on January 14, 2020, 07:40:15 AM
Point of clarification on the dash VIN removal for restoration that everyone misses.
It is not illegal to remove VIN, it's done all the time by body shops.
When you read the law, it clearly states "with the intent to commit fraud".
This part is always overlooked.
I also have no issue with that car being brought back to life.
When you can buy and replace all the sheet metal, why not.
Not true, in some states you cannot remove the vin or have to have the authorities watch or do it themselves. Federal law states "with intent to commit fraud" which leaves rebodying open to interpretation IMO. Rebodying is a gray area and there is no clear cut law as to what differentiates a restoration and a rebody when it come to replacing a lot of the body.
This is spot on IMO - "I'd say as long as your not making a new car that never existed before (or two of the same car)
then have at it , as there is not now or has ever been , or ever will be, a fool proof way to police anything otherwise. Don't make rules or laws that are unenforceable. It's a waste of resources."
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :worship: Very well said Brad :drinkingbud:
The way i see it, a motor vehicle that has a VIN that has been changed into another motor vehicle is a re-body. I vehicle that was rebuilt from parts of another vehicle, and or new parts isn't a re-body. When your new or newer vehicle is wrecked, it gets repaired. New, used, aftermarket parts are used to repair it. :alan2cents:
I'm a bit conflicted on this. I would like to see the VIN# saved on a car but I wouldn't want a VIN from an envelope on a car that I own. It would feel slightly better if you bought the rusty/wrecked shell with the #'s intact and then swap parts to it from a donor although I know it probably ends up being a worse car in the end depending on who does the repairs.
I really prefer to buy original paint cars from long term owners and fix them myself, I like to know where a car came from just so I can feel better about the car. I don't buy fancy VIN #'s to impress someone else about what I own, maybe that's the difference.
Quote from: JS29 on January 15, 2020, 08:04:46 AM
The way i see it, a motor vehicle that has a VIN that has been changed into another motor vehicle is a re-body. I vehicle that was rebuilt from parts of another vehicle, and or new parts isn't a re-body. When your new or newer vehicle is wrecked, it gets repaired. New, used, aftermarket parts are used to repair it. :alan2cents:
Newer cars do get rebuilt with front/rear clips and large sections of donor vehicles and even complete main bodies, depending on the insurance and state regs it may or may not end up with a salvage title. On old cars the question is when it becomes a rebody vs a rebuild - how much of the original body needs to be left?
Quote from: torredcuda on January 15, 2020, 09:38:38 AM
Quote from: JS29 on January 15, 2020, 08:04:46 AM
The way i see it, a motor vehicle that has a VIN that has been changed into another motor vehicle is a re-body. I vehicle that was rebuilt from parts of another vehicle, and or new parts isn't a re-body. When your new or newer vehicle is wrecked, it gets repaired. New, used, aftermarket parts are used to repair it. :alan2cents:
Newer cars do get rebuilt with front/rear clips and large sections of donor vehicles and even complete main bodies, depending on the insurance and state regs it may or may not end up with a salvage title. On old cars the question is when it becomes a rebody vs a rebuild - how much of the original body needs to be left?
From the looks of things nowadays.... not much of the original body needs to be left. And guess what, to many people, it's acceptable.... as long as the original vehicle existed and vin numbers and tags (and sometimes even more items) are still in perfect condition to prove it.
No response from my original hypothetical from those saying this car in an envelope is a legit restorable car.
Again, I have clean mostly rust free 70 Barracuda 318. Decide to make a AAR tribute with all the right parts, block, heads, etc but all 318 VIN stampings are intact. It's worth way less than the real deal. Experts can't tell this wasn't an AAR except the glaring 318 VIN.
I now have the opportunity to buy this guys VIN stampings for $7000, I could even ask him to just cut out and send the smaller stampings not the bigger chunks of extra rusty metal surrounding the stamps, why send the dash, so it fits into an envelope.
I buy and carefully replace the stampings and tags and VIN. No created car but we just lost real legitimate tribute that isn't built to deceive.
Some of you are saying this is legit and a great car was saved and it should be sold as a legit AAR so long as you didn't fake any numbers right?
@Brads70 (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/brads70_12) , @anlauto (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/anlauto_19) @torredcuda (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/torredcuda_122) @6Pack70 (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/6pack70_2798) Is this not what you are saying is legit.
Why stop there, stamping the block to match seems the next place to make it even greater. Is it even against the law to re-stamp a block?
:popcorn:
Quote from: worthywads on January 15, 2020, 05:23:07 PM
No response from my original hypothetical from those saying this car in an envelope is a legit restorable car.
Again, I have clean mostly rust free 70 Barracuda 318. Decide to make a AAR tribute with all the right parts, block, heads, etc but all 318 VIN stampings are intact. It's worth way less than the real deal. Experts can't tell this wasn't an AAR except the glaring 318 VIN.
I now have the opportunity to buy this guys VIN stampings for $7000, I could even ask him to just cut out and send the smaller stampings not the bigger chunks of extra rusty metal surrounding the stamps, why send the dash, so it fits into an envelope.
I buy and carefully replace the stampings and tags and VIN. No created car but we just lost real legitimate tribute that isn't built to deceive.
Some of you are saying this is legit and a great car was saved and it should be sold as a legit AAR so long as you didn't fake any numbers right?
@Brads70 (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/brads70_12) , @anlauto (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/anlauto_19) @torredcuda (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/torredcuda_122) @6Pack70 (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/6pack70_2798) Is this not what you are saying is legit.
Why stop there, stamping the block to match seems the next place to make it even greater. Is it even against the law to re-stamp a block?
First of all give people a chance to answer dude....i have a job and work long hours too. Boy, thank goodness we're only talking hypothetically.... thats a pretty unique situation considering you ( hypothetically) were willing to build and run somebody's rare and expensive T/A engine in your tribute car. And what incredible luck one would have to score these tags when their tribute is B5 blue, a 4 speed car with the large radiator opening, tourque boxes and blue interior to boot! Hightly unlikely someone who builds a tribute car would even consider spending another 7 grand for tags and another 25 grand to really modify the body to look fully legit and undetectable. Regardless, its up to the new owner of those tags what he or she creates with them. The right people in this hobby already know the full vin so it wouldn't be easy to pass off down the road as a rust free original.... if the buyer does his due diligence and checks it out properly or with professional assistance.
Quote from: worthywads on January 15, 2020, 05:23:07 PM
No response from my original hypothetical from those saying this car in an envelope is a legit restorable car.
Again, I have clean mostly rust free 70 Barracuda 318. Decide to make a AAR tribute with all the right parts, block, heads, etc but all 318 VIN stampings are intact. It's worth way less than the real deal. Experts can't tell this wasn't an AAR except the glaring 318 VIN.
I now have the opportunity to buy this guys VIN stampings for $7000, I could even ask him to just cut out and send the smaller stampings not the bigger chunks of extra rusty metal surrounding the stamps, why send the dash, so it fits into an envelope.
I buy and carefully replace the stampings and tags and VIN. No created car but we just lost real legitimate tribute that isn't built to deceive.
Some of you are saying this is legit and a great car was saved and it should be sold as a legit AAR so long as you didn't fake any numbers right?
@Brads70 (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/brads70_12) , @anlauto (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/anlauto_19) @torredcuda (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/torredcuda_122) @6Pack70 (https://forum.e-bodies.org/mlist/6pack70_2798) Is this not what you are saying is legit.
Why stop there, stamping the block to match seems the next place to make it even greater. Is it even against the law to re-stamp a block?
I guess the real question your asking is what is the definition of legit? Not an easy one to define as there are many/various opinions .
With this mentioned AAR are you moving the tags on another body shell or are you replacing the metal under the tags ? So for those who say no this is not "legit" then the question arises , how much replacement parts can be used to repair a car before it becomes illegitimate? and again who gets to decide this? What defines " original" . Like I said you replace a light bulb and to some it's not original anymore? Take Dave Waldens Challenger, its beautiful but it's not original anymore as its been restored. After 50 years has gone by the chances of any of these cars being " original" is pretty slim.
Me, personally, if I wanted to buy an AAR and this one was done nice and I was happy with the asking price sure it wouldn't bother me at all. I'd be happy to drive it. But that's just me and one opinion....
To me serial numbers are put on products just there to prove ownership and so the various governments can charge you taxes.
Everybody has a different opinion on this matter as far as legitimacy goes, you'll have to decide for yourself what you're comfortable with. One could say "yea go for it" while others say it's fraud and you should be arrested for even thinking about it. :alan2cents:
It's always been one of those chicken/egg questions.... :huh:
Every day I wake up and I know I can see pretty good. However before I get in my car and drive to work, I put my glasses on.... in an effort to prevent a problem with my driving or avoid having an accident. Due diligence. After 50 years, people need to do their part in everything they do to make sure they know they know what they are looking at. There's literally a ton of information in books and the internet on how cars are restored and what lengths people will go to in order to bring them back to life. Decide what type of car you want, decide what conidition you want it in, and decide if your bank account supports what you want. Then..... do your homework! Ask for help, read, learn. Then go shopping armed with knowledge. People who do not practice this are just asking to get screwed by others. Dishonest people will never ever disappear. If you as a buyer do not see honesty and transparency from a seller..... play it safe keep moving. Again, I could care less what enthusiasts do with their cars and I see no harm in replacing every piece of steel on a car.... as long as the vin and fender tag numbers are real and not tampered with. As a builder, be honest abput what you built and why you built it in the first place. I cant say it enough, not all cars are rebuilt in an effort to decieve. Some really incredible cars are rebuilt with tons of new metal from AMD and structural units from other clean cars out of necessity.
As far as going ahead and stamping blocks and transmissions.... good luck. Thats a whole different topic and many people with and without help can spot new stampings. The most valuable tool a shopper carries is the cell phone in his pocket. Lots of info right at your fingertips when looking at a car.
Do I think this fella should be asking 7 grand for a title, a dash tag and 2 fender tags..... ummm NO. Now if he had the entire rotted or wrecked body with things still intact, a buildsheet, and matching numbers block... maybe.
Like Brad and I have said it really comes down to where do you draw the line as to what is a salvageable restoration and what is a rebody. I agree it would be better to have the whole car no matter how rusted, parted out it was but if you just end up scrapping 90% of it anyway what`s the difference? As far as restamping engines and transmissions the dealers were actually instructed to do that when replacing with warranty blocks so if that was legal/OK is it fraud for someone restoring a car to do it? The only reason vin numbers ae on vehicle are to identify them for registration, insurance and theft.
"I now have the opportunity to buy this guys VIN stampings for $7000, I could even ask him to just cut out and send the smaller stampings not the bigger chunks of extra rusty metal surrounding the stamps, why send the dash, so it fits into an envelope."
If you added those numbers to your clone you would make it worth more but you also are spending $7000 plus thousands more to weld them in.
Quote from: torredcuda on January 16, 2020, 06:30:19 AM
"I now have the opportunity to buy this guys VIN stampings for $7000, I could even ask him to just cut out and send the smaller stampings not the bigger chunks of extra rusty metal surrounding the stamps, why send the dash, so it fits into an envelope."
If you added those numbers to your clone you would make it worth more but you also are spending $7000 plus thousands more to weld them in.
So it would be worth more to you even if you know it's really just transferred numbers? Would you tell people what was done if I told you I transferred numbers and sold it to you?
If I didn't tell you and you paid top dollar and then I told you would you feel cheated?
Some of these Mopars are so valuable that I'd be scared to drive and enjoy them. I would do a thorogh inspection on the car to see what I'm actually getting first of all. If you told me you moved the numbers and it looked like you did a really nice job building an accurate representation of a car that really did exist.... I would buy that car from you.... and if it was priced accordingly, I would drive and enjoy it and not be afraid of using it in traffic. If you wouldnt allow me to inspect the car before purchasing, I would walk away.
If you sold me the car and you told me after that you moved numbers, I would still enjoy the car and spread the word about you holding back information. That's the nicest thing I would do. This is all provided I didnt pay the same money as an original sheetmetal car. Some people want a nice Cuda and could care less about all the numbers stuff.
There are guys out there that move original body stampings to different body panels so well that it should be considered a work of art. You will not be able to tell....not even when or if the car has to return to a bare metal state. If you can do work like that, then I would buy your car from you. Show me the hard stuff...and original buildsheet, the vin tag, the original fender tag...the block stampings.... thats the stuff that is way harder to decieve people with these items in my opinion. Body stampings...whatever. One good crash and sometimes both of those are history.
:iagree: It depends on the quality of the work....If it was done correctly, the number swap should be undetectable....if that's the case, reguardless of if you told me or not, I would be happy with the purchase if it past my personal inspection and I thought I was getting a good value for the asking price.
I would be upset if I paid someone else to look at the car, and if they did not find obvious signs of a rebody (numbers double stamped, pieces crudely welded in etc...)....but I did notice after I received the car. Then I have someone to blame.
Reguardless of any previous knowledge of the car, if I look at it, and I like what I see, and I buy it....then only I'm to blame.
It's been said earlier in this thread....nowadays, the onus is on the buyer period. :alan2cents:
Funny how things go sideways. A previous friend renumbered a couple of cars, did it right and said if he ever sold them he would let the buyers know. Another previous friend did at least one car that way as well.
So I see 3 of these cars and casually mention to the new owners that the cars had really good California bodies on them in the renumbering process. Well, all these owners freaked out because it was news to them. I'm a real A-hole for speaking the truth, the rebodied car owners dislike me, the friends are now ex-friends. I sleep good at night though as my ex-friends said they were going to be upfront with any buyers and I meant no ill-will.
Just saying, that this will probably happen down the road. It all starts out just peachy though. If it's no big deal then why do sellers hide the info and buyers get into a snit when the work is discovered? Are things so terrible driving a 318 car with a HP engine swapped in and some musclecar graphics on the side? Why the need to change the 318 VIN to something else, what exactly are you hoping to gain?
Quote from: 6Pack70 on January 16, 2020, 06:01:28 PM
Some of these Mopars are so valuable that I'd be scared to drive and enjoy them. I would do a thorogh inspection on the car to see what I'm actually getting first of all. If you told me you moved the numbers and it looked like you did a really nice job building an accurate representation of a car that really did exist.... I would buy that car from you.... and if it was priced accordingly, I would drive and enjoy it and not be afraid of using it in traffic. If you wouldnt allow me to inspect the car before purchasing, I would walk away.
If you sold me the car and you told me after that you moved numbers, I would still enjoy the car and spread the word about you holding back information. That's the nicest thing I would do. This is all provided I didnt pay the same money as an original sheetmetal car. Some people want a nice Cuda and could care less about all the numbers stuff.
I was saying you paid full real deal price and then I told you with evidence that it was a rebody. For those with the opinion that it's ok to move numbers why would you spread the word on me, the information shouldn't change anything if I did great work and you had to be told.
This is what I'm hearing is ok, by anyone saying this is a restorable car.
Quote from: RUNCHARGER on January 16, 2020, 07:01:47 PM
Funny how things go sideways. A previous friend renumbered a couple of cars, did it right and said if he ever sold them he would let the buyers know. Another previous friend did at least one car that way as well.
So I see 3 of these cars and casually mention to the new owners that the cars had really good California bodies on them in the renumbering process. Well, all these owners freaked out because it was news to them. I'm a real A-hole for speaking the truth, the rebodied car owners dislike me, the friends are now ex-friends. I sleep good at night though as my ex-friends said they were going to be upfront with any buyers and I meant no ill-will.
Just saying, that this will probably happen down the road. It all starts out just peachy though. If it's no big deal then why do sellers hide the info and buyers get into a snit when the work is discovered? Are things so terrible driving a 318 car with a HP engine swapped in and some musclecar graphics on the side? Why the need to change the 318 VIN to something else, what exactly are you hoping to gain?
I agree, if it was only about nice cars it wouldn't matter, but it's about making money through fraud.
I would rather have your honesty in a sale like that. If you told me afterwards and showed me evidence that numbers were original, but moved to a better structure, I would still like the car hopefully because you do nice work. I would not like you because you would be one of the guys that people hate. Withholding things you know and waiting until you have my money and then telling me.
And there it is again....fraud. What you see as fraud, I see as metal. You modify those original numbers themselves? Thats fraud to me.
This debate will likely never end. Someday people really wont care because the hobby is slowly changing. Ask any parts vendor.
Maybe it's best we just shake hands and agree to disagree. If anything, it shows how passionate we are for these cars. :handshake:
Quote from: worthywads on January 16, 2020, 05:36:21 PM
Quote from: torredcuda on January 16, 2020, 06:30:19 AM
"I now have the opportunity to buy this guys VIN stampings for $7000, I could even ask him to just cut out and send the smaller stampings not the bigger chunks of extra rusty metal surrounding the stamps, why send the dash, so it fits into an envelope."
If you added those numbers to your clone you would make it worth more but you also are spending $7000 plus thousands more to weld them in.
So it would be worth more to you even if you know it's really just transferred numbers? Would you tell people what was done if I told you I transferred numbers and sold it to you?
If I didn't tell you and you paid top dollar and then I told you would you feel cheated?
There are basically two types of car condition - original survivor or restored. If I was buying a restored car with a repaint on a very rust free body (with proof) I would pay more then one that was rusty and needed a lot of panel replacement. If I was buying a car that was very rusty to begin with I would have no problem paying the same for a rebody done right as one that every panel was replaced around the numbers, in fact some would argue a clean factory body would be better than a repaired rusty one. . Six of one half dozen of another to me.
What about a car that was original but crashed. Say the Raid support and cowl were damaged beyond repair or even the dash. Now you buy NOS parts ( if available) and cut the original numbers out and weld them into the NOS pieces or place the VIN on the new dash.--Is that fraud or just a repair ??
JS27
Repair in my opinion. I don't care if you replaced frame rails, roof whatever. The original numbers were not modified or altered. Just moved back to un- destroyed steel. I might be the only one, but I would tell people what it took to make it right.