**BEWARE** COMPLETE AAR Cuda numbers, title etc for sale

[kathyscuda]

6 pack when you replace the dash pad in your E body you have no choice but to remove the rivets. its fact.
most of us purchase the rosette rivets. the one who use sheet metal screws is what gets me.

[Fastmark]

Add the fact that every state is different as well. I was watching Fantom Works. I believe they are in West Virginia. A guy bought a 57 Chevy from a museum. After they got the car, they decided it was too rusted to repair. So, they bought a new body and re-bodied it. Right there on tv. He said he called his DMV and they said he could remove the vin number from the rusted body and place it on the new body " as long as he did not disturb the actual numbers stamped on the body" . He made a big deal to his welding tech" don't disturb the numbers". Likewise I read an article about a guy up north doing the same thing to a 69 Camaro. Only he had to change the numbers in front of the a LEO. All legal in those states. Maybe the difference is you are using a NEW body with no numbers at all.
I once got a phone call from a state trooper investigating an acquaintance of mine in Texas. I cut ties with him when I realized he was a crook. I told the trooper of three cars he had tried to sell me that were re bodied or just flat stolen and I wanted nothing to do with him and had not for several years. As far as I know, nothing happened to the guy. I did ask the trooper if you had a car like an ebody with the vin tag on the removable pad, how would could restore the pad back to original. He said removing the vin rivets was felony and you had to just recover the dashpad with the vin tag in place. NO OPTIONS. My reply was, " good thing my dash pad is in nice shape and doesn't need restoring"!
The thing that kills me is that people put more emphasis on a matching number drivetrain than a original rust free drive train. I guess there are just more rusty cars with drive trains intact than there are really nice rust free bodies.

[6Pack70]

It's  a very touchy subject. Some people it bothers, some could care less.  It also depends on what caliber Mopar you are looking to own....and how much money you're willing to part with.   What kills me is people (the rebody police) thinking every Mopar that used a donor unibody and or 99% AMD metal to bring it back is an outcast of some sort.  A car that was built to decieve.  What a joke.  Very close minded people.  Yes, I will agree,  some select few will attempt to decieve people to make the almighty dollar.... but certainly not everyone.  If you think someone is trying to pull a fast one on you.... walk away and keep shopping.   I cant help but stress my opinion.  If done nicely, and no numbers were changed or tampered with to better the car in any way..... use whatever metal available to get an accurate representation of that once built car back on the road.   Trust me.... if you do your homework, you'll find that many cars already exist like this.  I'm happy that they are out there being enjoyed.  (And their original numbers never changed).

[cuda hunter]

I mostly agree with everything said.

However not posting the numbers helps this person pull the covers over someone's eyes.    This does not help anyone except the person who will commit the fraud. 

Information like vin numbers is public property once it is posted on the net.  Of which is was already posted. 

[Mr Lee]

I think that the law (that says you can't remove a VIN tag) was put into place strictly to prevent crooks from committing fraud.  The lawmakers weren't gonna put a clause in there that says "... unless you're just trying to restore a dash, or part of the car that is damaged / rusty...".   They're just not gonna take the time to do that in my opinion.  Therefore, there has to be an exception to the rule just as there are exceptions to most every rule out there.  You can't properly restore a dash pad with the VIN tag still on it.  I think ya gotta take the law with a grain of salt.  Its the same old story.  One person commits fraud, and then the rest of the good honest people in the world aren't allowed to restore their dashes or their rusty cars.  It's BS.  Don't commit fraud and don't be a scumbag and everyone is gonna be ok.

[Katfish]

Point of clarification on the dash VIN removal for restoration that everyone misses.
It is not illegal to remove VIN, it's done all the time by body shops.
When you read the law, it clearly states "with the intent to commit fraud".
This part is always overlooked.

I also have no issue with that car being brought back to life.
When you can buy and replace all the sheet metal, why not.

[anlauto]

If this car is bought and restored there will always be a buyer for it. It will not hold the same value as an original paneled, number matching AAR, but it will have value. There's an arse for every seat.
I always refer back to the FC7 1971 HEMICUDA convertible that was built from a few original parts....it still has value, just not as much as the other examples....I think the last time it sold was  like $1.2 million or something, when the others are in the $3 million range

[Fastmark]

I think that the law (that says you can't remove a VIN tag) was put into place strictly to prevent crooks from committing fraud.  The lawmakers weren't gonna put a clause in there that says "... unless you're just trying to restore a dash, or part of the car that is damaged / rusty...".   They're just not gonna take the time to do that in my opinion.  Therefore, there has to be an exception to the rule just as there are exceptions to most every rule out there.  You can't properly restore a dash pad with the VIN tag still on it.  I think ya gotta take the law with a grain of salt.  Its the same old story.  One person commits fraud, and then the rest of the good honest people in the world aren't allowed to restore their dashes or their rusty cars.  It's BS.  Don't commit fraud and don't be a scumbag and everyone is gonna be ok.

I agree. But I made a point to ask a fellow who who interpreted the law and enforced it just to find out what he thought. A judge might see differently if you were a auto restorer. Some cops would give their own momma a ticket.

[Joegrapes]

20 years ago I sent my dash pad to Just Dashes in California to have it recovered. They told me they wouldn't except it unless I took the vin plate off. I did and riveted it back on when I got the dash pad back. They never told me removing the vin plate was illegal. Sometimes a car is so bad you need to replace everything except the radiator cap. There shouldn't be anything wrong with that as long as you tell the buyer what was done and not pass it off as all original sheet metal. Probably 90% of my car has been replaced. At car shows people ask me all the time if my car is original, I tell them "all the parts are originally off some car"

[ec_co]

20 years ago I sent my dash pad to Just Dashes in California to have it recovered. They told me they wouldn't except it unless I took the vin plate off. I did and riveted it back on when I got the dash pad back. They never told me removing the vin plate was illegal. Sometimes a car is so bad you need to replace everything except the radiator cap. There shouldn't be anything wrong with that as long as you tell the buyer what was done and not pass it off as all original sheet metal. Probably 90% of my car has been replaced. At car shows people ask me all the time if my car is original, I tell them "all the parts are originally off some car"

the issue isn't that YOU don't disclose it, it's seller # 2, 3, 4 or whoever that conveniently forgets to mention that person #1 replaced 50-99% of the car (or whatever the case may be) and gets top$$. this is THE biggest issue as far as I'm concerned. I don't necessarily care if a car was totally rebuilt, but some folks are shelling out big $$$ for cars they think are "as built original", but someone in the past re-bodied it

[6Pack70]

Yep,  I couldn't agree with you more.  People have restored cars sitting in their garages,  showrooms, man caves.. whatever that are not 100 % the original body.   This is where an expert inspection would come in quite handy if you do not trust your own judgment.   These cars have more new panels and sections from other cars than ever before and it continues every day.  Bottom line is, if you're prepared to spend those big bucks on a musclecar, then you should be smart enough to have it inspected and verified also.  Ask questions.... do not just drink and have a bidding war at an auction.  You will almost always lose in the end. 

[anlauto]

Here's a hypothetical question. Lets say this AAR gets a real nice quality restoration, and other then the fact the engine and transmission numbers still don't match....it's basically impossible for any potential buyer to know what it started out as. Then lets say the builder sells it and is 100% up front with how it was created...Buyer number 1 is happy, loves the car....for a while...then as years pass and buyers #2,3, 4 etc..   the story gets lost.

Then 8-10 years from now buyer #5 comes along...Does a thorough inspection  and finds no evidence of the re-construction from it's past...The car still is not numbers matching, but is a great colour, 4 speed , original tags etc...so he pays the current market value...

WHAT'S THE HARM IN THAT ?

These are just cars.... Another one getting saved, in my opinion, is ALWAYS a good thing.

[JH27N0B]

As long as we are on the subject of hypotheticals, what if a rare car got wrecked years ago, and later someone built and titled a car using the VIN, fender tag, and number cut out of the cowl.  Someone else had the engine and trans and built and titled a car based on the #s drivetrain.
So now there are 2 beautiful restored cars out there with the same VIN.
Which fraudulent car, the NOM or the #s matching one, would you be more proud to own? 

[6Pack70]

The one with the original vin from the dash, the original steel stamped fender tag and the body stampings.  Buildsheets were not meant for us to find, they were meant to be used as a guide to build a car....and thrown away.  I can honestly say, I've never heard of anyone even trying to build a car from a numbers engine and trans and a buildsheet.  New York DMV requires a pencil rubbing of the cars original dash vin number to get a title. 

[JH27N0B]

Some years back Galen Govier hinted in a magazine column he was writing at the time that the hypothetical situation I brought up, had happened with a deceased hemi car and there might be 2 out there now miraculously risen from the grave.